Ferrothorn

Taking this from Colonel M (I'm going to try not to change too much of his original writing, though) nm I pretty much completely rewrote it lol

old version by colonel m

Overview
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Ferrothorn's stellar Grass / Steel typing grants it resistances to many common attacks, such as Thunderbolt, Stone Edge, and Waterfall, which it can stomach comfortably thanks to its high defenses. Its ability, Iron Barbs, is great for deterring physical attackers that rely on contact moves, as the recoil damage it causes can pile up quickly. Ferrothorn's movepool is also spectacular, including excellent support options such as Stealth Rock and Leech Seed as well as two very strong STAB moves in Power Whip and Gyro Ball. Although Ferrothorn can threaten most of its common switch-ins with the appropriate move, it struggles to find room for many of its potential move options, and it suffers from a 4x weakness to Fire-type attacks and the loss of its Ghost- and Dark-type resistances. It also lacks a reliable recovery move, meaning that it can be easy to wear down over the course of a match. Nevertheless, Ferrothorn's immense utility and ability to check prominent threats such as Gyarados and Azumarill make it a solid Pokemon in OU.


Utility
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name: Utility
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Power Whip
move 4: Protect / Gyro Ball / Knock Off
ability: Iron Barbs
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
nature: Impish / Relaxed

Moves
========

Ferrothorn is a very reliable user of Stealth Rock, as its typing and bulk can force many Pokemon to switch out. Leech Seed is extremely valuable, giving Ferrothorn a much-needed source of recovery as well as a great phazing tool against Pokemon that attempt to set up on it. Power Whip's very high Base Power compensates for the lack of Attack investment, and it allows Ferrothorn to beat many Water- and Ground-types. Protect allows Ferrothorn to recover more health from Leftovers and Leech Seed as well as to scout for potential coverage moves, such as Fire Blast from Tyranitar and Garchomp and Superpower from Azumarill. Gyro Ball is another powerful STAB move that uses Ferrothorn's ridiculously low Speed to its advantage, allowing it to check Pokemon such as Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and some variants of Mawile more easily. Unfortunately, its low PP is a potential issue. Knock Off is an alternative attacking option in the last slot that pesters switch-ins by robbing them of their items, and it deals a solid amount of damage to Aegislash in particular.

Two other moves can be used. Running Spikes instead of Stealth Rock is viable if Ferrothorn is already paired with a Stealth Rock user. Thunder Wave is great for crippling switch-ins that rely on their Speed, such as Charizard. It should be noted that Thunder Wave should never be used alongside Gyro Ball, as the Speed drop from paralysis drastically lowers Gyro Ball's power.

Set Details
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The given EV spread allows Ferrothorn to fare well against both physically and specially based opponents. Specifically, an investment of 168 Special Defense EVs allows Ferrothorn to survive two Ice Beams from Manaphy after a Tail Glow. However, Ferrothorn's EV spread can easily be tailored to account for any individual threats it needs to check. For example, a spread of 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD gives Ferrothorn a much easier time against Ground-types, such as Excadrill, Diggersby, and Mamoswine. A Relaxed nature and a Speed IV of 0 should be used with Gyro Ball to increase its damage output.

Leftovers is the preferred item, as Ferrothorn greatly appreciates the recovery it provides. However, Rocky Helmet can be used to punish users of contact moves even more than usual. Speaking of contact moves, Iron Barbs is the only ability worth considering—Anticipation is generally only useful to scout for Fire-type coverage moves, which can already be accomplished by Protect.

Usage Tips
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Ferrothorn should initially be switched in on a Pokemon that does not threaten it, such as a Water-type or Chansey, and proceed to set up Stealth Rock. Afterwards, it can serve as a utility counter to most Water-types, some Electric-types, and many other select Pokemon such as Kyurem-B if it has the appropriate move. Generally, throwing out a Leech Seed is a safe option; most teams lack a Pokemon immune to the move, and Ferrothorn will lose some HP when it switches in most of the time. Aside from this, using Ferrothorn effectively depends on the moves it's running. For example, Protect can be used to scout an opposing Greninja's moveset for Hidden Power Fire.

Team Options
========

An important thing to keep in mind about Ferrothorn is that it excels on teams that take advantage of weather. An immunity to sandstorm damage and the ability to counter Water-types make Ferrothorn a great fit on sand teams, where Hippowdon is a fantastic teammate. Hippowdon can check the Fire- and Fighting-types that Ferrothorn struggles against, and it can also use Stealth Rock, which frees up a moveslot for Ferrothorn. Similarly, rain partially alleviates Ferrothorn's crippling Fire-type weakness, and rain teams often struggle against the Water- and Electric-types that Ferrothorn checks with ease. Thus, Politoed is another good partner for Ferrothorn. Bisharp and Defiant Thundurus can capitalize on the use of Defog, which Ferrothorn's entry hazards often force. Landorus-T works similarly to Hippowdon, checking Fire- and Fighting-types. Gyarados and Azumarill also work well in this regard. Finally, Fairy-types such as Clefable and Sylveon check Fighting-types, and the latter can assist Ferrothorn with Wish and Heal Bell.


Other Options
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Bulldoze hits Heatran and Magnezone hard, but it will not OHKO either of them. Iron Head is a Steel-type STAB option that complements Thunder Wave decently. Toxic can be used to punish bulky switch-ins, such as Volcarona, Zapdos, and Mandibuzz. Curse is a decent boosting option, as Ferrothorn has high Special Defense and is immune to Toxic. A Choice Band set can be used, but such a set is gimmicky and wastes Ferrothorn's potential as a support Pokemon.


Checks & Counters
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**Fire-types**: Ferrothorn's STAB moves are resisted by Fire-types such as Charizard, Heatran, Talonflame, Volcarona, and Entei, all of which can OHKO Ferrothorn with a STAB move of their choice. Talonflame and Mega Charizard X must be wary, as using Flare Blitz against Ferrothorn will cause them to take massive amounts of recoil damage.

**Fighting-types**: Many Fighting-types have difficulty switching into Ferrothorn, and the majority of them hate taking Iron Barbs damage, but they are easily capable of KOing Ferrothorn. Conkeldurr isn't terribly bothered by Iron Barbs, as it can recover any lost HP with Drain Punch. It also enjoys switching into the odd Thunder Wave, which activates Guts. Lucario and Terrakion can switch into Knock Off and receive an Attack boost thanks to Justified. Lucario also resists both of Ferrothorn's STAB moves.

**Physical Walls**: Like most defensive Pokemon, Ferrothorn is easy to wall. Skarmory takes insignificant damage from Ferrothorn's STAB moves, blocks Leech Seed with Taunt, and can remove Stealth Rock or Spikes with Defog and then set up its own entry hazards. Mandibuzz works similarly with the combination of Taunt and Defog. Zapdos can use Defog too, and it can also use Heat Wave to KO Ferrothorn. Mega Venusaur needs Hidden Power Fire to damage Ferrothorn, but it can easily switch into any of Ferrothorn's moves and force it out.

**Magnezone**: Magnezone traps Ferrothorn with Magnet Pull and KOes it with Hidden Power Fire.
 
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Not qc, but I personally think the ev spread should be 252 hp / 164 def / 92 spdef
This defense investment allows you to live 2 unboosted returns or frustrations from mega pinsir and the rest in spdef.
 
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Errr... why no Thunder Wave? Also, I'm not a huge fan of Protect - not many good opponents will waste turns leaving a seeded Pokemon in, not because of the threat of Protect but because of the opponent switching to something that will take a hit and absorb some health back. It's nice for baiting HJK and finding random Fire-type moves on stuff like Tyranitar and Garchomp but it's not as good as Thunder Wave imo.
 
Errr... why no Thunder Wave? Also, I'm not a huge fan of Protect - not many good opponents will waste turns leaving a seeded Pokemon in, not because of the threat of Protect but because of the opponent switching to something that will take a hit and absorb some health back. It's nice for baiting HJK and finding random Fire-type moves on stuff like Tyranitar and Garchomp but it's not as good as Thunder Wave imo.
idk, I always thought Twave (and Stealth Rock) were overrated on Ferro. You generally should use a bulky ground as your rock setter, and not using it on Ferro frees up a moveslot for dual STAB, which it appreciates. I personally like Protect better than Thunder Wave, as it allows you to scout for Hidden Power Fire on things you otherwise beat, like Latios, Latias, and Greninja, while also punishing High Jump Kick users and generating Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery. Thunder Wave is nice for paralyzing Fire-types on the switch, but I appreciate the scouting, potential damage, and recovery coming from Protect more. Also, maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't ever choose Rocky Helmet. I find the passive recovery too much to give up; even though it has Leech Seed, it really likes Lefties passive recovery. Imo the set should be:

Utility
########
name: Utility
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect / Thunder Wave
move 3: Power Whip
move 4: Gyro Ball / Stealth Rock
ability: Iron Barbs
item: Leftovers
evs:
ivs: 0 Spe
nature: Relaxed

96 Special Defense EVs avoid the OHKO from Life Orb Latios' Hidden Power Fire w/out Protect (however only 28 are necessary if you use Protect) if you're looking for a spread with more Special Defense. That's the only idea for a spread I could think of, but I'm sure there's a better option than 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD.
 
I'm fine with slashing Thunder Wave. I would personally put it over Protect, actually, and leave Protect and Spikes in moves, because I've never been a fan of Protect in general, especially on something so cramped for moveslots. The current slashing was agreed on based on a short conversation on IRC, though. (The first three moves are definitely needed other than maybe slashing SR with Spikes -- it's really just the last slot that's up for debate.)

E: Just saw the above post. I don't like Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn (i.e. something without a real recovery move) either -- I wouldn't mind moving that to Set Details.
 
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idk, I always thought Twave (and Stealth Rock) were overrated on Ferro. You generally should use a bulky ground as your rock setter, and not using it on Ferro frees up a moveslot for dual STAB, which it appreciates. I personally like Protect better than Thunder Wave, as it allows you to scout for Hidden Power Fire on things you otherwise beat, like Latios, Latias, and Greninja, while also punishing High Jump Kick users and generating Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery. Thunder Wave is nice for paralyzing Fire-types on the switch, but I appreciate the scouting, potential damage, and recovery coming from Protect more.

The problem with your argument is that not every team wants to run a bulky ground (I doubt Hippowdon works on >80% of teams), and of the Ground-types that exist in OU, many have similar if not worse 4MSS (Landorus) or sets that don't want to run SR (Scarf Excadrill). On the other hand, Ferrothorn is bulky, reliable, creates free turns, switches in on many metagame threats with little to no consequence - what about that doesn't sound appealing as an SR setter? I don't understand why SR = bulky ground to you.

Now here goes some "extended reasoning" as to why I don't like Protect, hopefully this convinces you:

When it comes to scouting for random Fire-type moves, Protect is usable but not ideal. The ideal in this case is to scout by switching out to something that can comfortably take a Fire-type coverage attack, of which you will probably have several options. If they switch due to the lack of Fire-type coverage, fine, you have a good shot at preserving momentum since they're probably switching to something that can comfortably take on Ferrothorn (meanwhile, your switch-in is most likely safe if the opponent sends in a Fire-type, and thus you preserve momentum on your side). If they don't switch and they have a Fire-type move, then you've taken the hit and hopefully you know how to retaliate (either switch if another move is problematic or if you predict a switch, or stay in if you're in a good position vs. most of their team). On the other hand, Protect leaves you open to a lot of things - if they don't have a Fire-type move, they will switch out to something that does (or something with a Fighting-type move), and most of the Pokemon with Fire- or Fighting-type moves can also use Ferrothorn as setup bait, so you're stuck with a loss of momentum due to a failed Protect that would have been better as a switching opportunity. If they have something strong enough (e.g. Garchomp's EQ), they might boost on the Protect to take you out the next turn, or it could use a move like Stealth Rock (again, Garchomp being a common example in this scenario). Either way you'd accomplish more by switching. And finally, if they DO have a Fire-type move, congratulations - you're just going to do what you should have done the turn before except it's literally 500x more predictable. Don't be surprised if your switch-in gets smashed by some unexpected attack or if your switch-in gets countered by a switch of the opponent.

Literally in every scenario here, Protect < switching.

Now as to punishing High Jump Kick users: what uses HJK anyway? Mega Medicham is the only one that realistically comes to mind, and Mega Medicham often carries Fire Punch anyway as it's its best way of hurting Aegislash (and saves it from Protect shenanigans involving Ferrothorn). Also, if you switch in Ferrothorn on a Mega Medicham, that's almost a dead giveaway that you're carrying Protect, as only a fool would do that unless they were forced into it because nothing else could take it on (in which case you already basically lose).

Finally, I already covered stalling for recovery in my earlier post, but just to reiterate, it wastes turns that the opponent will almost certainly use to put themselves in a better position. Switches happen, boosts will be used, and you're almost guaranteed to find yourself in a worse spot than you did before because you gave the opponent a free turn. Leech Seed is first and foremost more of a phazing move than it is a recovery move: the opponent switching out tends to be the most impactful effect that the move has, while the recovery is a nice bonus as Ferrothorn's longevity is never really guaranteed without a reliable, instantaneous source of recovery.

So yeah, that's my reasoning there. Overall, I think Protect is a move that does have its occasionally useful effects, but it's too much of a risk, accomplishes nothing that can't be done more efficiently with another action, and takes away a moveslot from a Pokemon that already has bad 4MSS. That's why Protect shouldn't be a slash on the set.
 
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The problem with your argument is that not every team wants to run a bulky ground (I doubt Hippowdon works on >80% of teams), and of the Ground-types that exist in OU, many have similar if not worse 4MSS (Landorus) or sets that don't want to run SR (Scarf Excadrill). On the other hand, Ferrothorn is bulky, reliable, creates free turns, switches in on many metagame threats with little to no consequence - what about that doesn't sound appealing as an SR setter? I don't understand why SR = bulky ground to you.

Now here goes some "extended reasoning" as to why I don't like Protect, hopefully this convinces you:

When it comes to scouting for random Fire-type moves, Protect is usable but not ideal. The ideal in this case is to scout by switching out to something that can comfortably take a Fire-type coverage attack, of which you will probably have several options. If they switch due to the lack of Fire-type coverage, fine, you have a good shot at preserving momentum since they're probably switching to something that can comfortably take on Ferrothorn (meanwhile, your switch-in is most likely safe if the opponent sends in a Fire-type, and thus you preserve momentum on your side). If they don't switch and they have a Fire-type move, then you've taken the hit and hopefully you know how to retaliate (either switch if another move is problematic or if you predict a switch, or stay in if you're in a good position vs. most of their team). On the other hand, Protect leaves you open to a lot of things - if they don't have a Fire-type move, they will switch out to something that does (or something with a Fighting-type move), and most of the Pokemon with Fire- or Fighting-type moves can also use Ferrothorn as setup bait, so you're stuck with a loss of momentum due to a failed Protect that would have been better as a switching opportunity. If they have something strong enough (e.g. Garchomp's EQ), they might boost on the Protect to take you out the next turn, or it could use a move like Stealth Rock (again, Garchomp being a common example in this scenario). Either way you'd accomplish more by switching. And finally, if they DO have a Fire-type move, congratulations - you're just going to do what you should have done the turn before except it's literally 500x more predictable. Don't be surprised if your switch-in gets smashed by some unexpected attack or if your switch-in gets countered by a switch of the opponent.

Literally in every scenario here, Protect < switching.

Now as to punishing High Jump Kick users: what uses HJK anyway? Mega Medicham is the only one that realistically comes to mind, and Mega Medicham often carries Fire Punch anyway as it's its best way of hurting Aegislash (and saves it from Protect shenanigans involving Ferrothorn). Also, if you switch in Ferrothorn on a Mega Medicham, that's almost a dead giveaway that you're carrying Protect, as only a fool would do that unless they were forced into it because nothing else could take it on (in which case you already basically lose).

Finally, I already covered stalling for recovery in my earlier post, but just to reiterate, it wastes turns that the opponent will almost certainly use to put themselves in a better position. Switches happen, boosts will be used, and you're almost guaranteed to find yourself in a worse spot than you did before because you gave the opponent a free turn. Leech Seed is first and foremost more of a phazing move than it is a recovery move: the opponent switching out tends to be the most impactful effect that the move has, while the recovery is a nice bonus as Ferrothorn's longevity is never really guaranteed without a reliable, instantaneous source of recovery.

So yeah, that's my reasoning there. Overall, I think Protect is a move that does have its occasionally useful effects, but it's too much of a risk, accomplishes nothing that can't be done more efficiently with another action, and takes away a moveslot from a Pokemon that already has bad 4MSS. That's why Protect shouldn't be a slash on the set.
Eh okay. Not much I can say when everyone disagrees with me :I

I still think that Ferrothorn, like Skarmory and Heatran, should only use Stealth Rock if you can't fit it on a different teamslot. But I rest my case, simply because there's never a point. Same with the Protect argument. -_- I concede that the HJK argument was weak, but it's still a very helpful move v. Latios and Greninja.

What're your thoughts on removing Rocky Helmet and changing the spread for more Special Defense? Maybe we can agree on something. Right now I guess it should be

Utility
########
name: Utility
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Power Whip
move 4: Stealth Rock / Gyro Ball
ability: Iron Barbs
item: Leftovers
evs:
ivs: 0 Spe
nature: Relaxed

nvm I don't have to pretend I agree any more
 
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No please...

move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect
move 3: Power Whip
move 4: Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Gyro Ball
item: Leftovers

Basically every Ferrothorn used at a high level of play runs Protect and Lefties, and it's really not hard to see. Protect combined with Leech Seed and Lefties is paramount for Ferrothorn to have the longevity it needs to stay alive throughout the match. Without Protect + Lefties, keeping Ferrothorn alive becomes much more difficult. TWave is an ok option but no more than moves, imo. Last slot is really my preference, I think Knock Off is the best move you can run in the last slot because it hits Aegi and removes the items of switch-ins, espec like Heatran Lefties. It's a versatile and useful move that I personally think is the best option. Gyro could be slashed second, last 2 is subjective order. I only run SR if I don't have an easy spot to fit it elsewhere, it doesn't exactly do good vs many Defoggers like Taunt Skarm, Heat Wave Zapdos, HP Fire Latis... Plus the utility of the extra attack is pretty large.
 
No please...

move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect
move 3: Power Whip
move 4: Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Gyro Ball
item: Leftovers

Basically every Ferrothorn used at a high level of play runs Protect and Lefties, and it's really not hard to see. Protect combined with Leech Seed and Lefties is paramount for Ferrothorn to have the longevity it needs to stay alive throughout the match. Without Protect + Lefties, keeping Ferrothorn alive becomes much more difficult. TWave is an ok option but no more than moves, imo. Last slot is really my preference, I think Knock Off is the best move you can run in the last slot because it hits Aegi and removes the items of switch-ins, espec like Heatran Lefties. It's a versatile and useful move that I personally think is the best option. Gyro could be slashed second, last 2 is subjective order. I only run SR if I don't have an easy spot to fit it elsewhere, it doesn't exactly do good vs many Defoggers like Taunt Skarm, Heat Wave Zapdos, HP Fire Latis... Plus the utility of the extra attack is pretty large.
Thanks :)

What do you think about the spread? 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD with a relaxed nature avoids the OHKO from LO Latios's HP Fire and from +2 Mega Pinsir Return. I think it's probably its best defensively mixed spread, unless we want to go back to 40 SpD.
 
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That's ok, I often run 252/128+/128 which avoids something from KyuB iirc? Or 252/48+/208 if I need more SpD. Yeah I'm ok with that as the main spread.
 
252/48+/208, 252/88+/168, 252/128+/128, and 252/168+/88 could all work as spreads with more SpD (they all hit jump points). I guess it just depends on what attacks Ferrothorn needs to take. 252/128+/128 can take two Ice Beams from max SpA LO Kyurem-B, for instance.

Aragorn the King, Ferrothorn actually needs nearly max Def to safely avoid the 2HKO from Pinsir's Return:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Ferrothorn: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 304-358 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

It can also avoid the OHKO from LO Latios's HP Fire with <40 SpD EVs (unless you meant after SR, in which case it does require at least 96 EVs). Anyway, I think it would be fine to just have one of the above EV spreads listed as the main one, then explain how flexible its EVs are in Set Details.

In terms of the slashing, it seems like there's already a lot of QC disagreement lol...so I'm going to tag Dice for his input :toast:
 
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Just FYI Muk, the EVs needed to 2HKO with unboosted Return and the EVs needed to OHKO with +2 Return are different. The former takes into account Leftovers recovery; the latter does not. AtK's spread is correct in that it doesn't allow Mega Pinsir to 2HKO assuming Lefties.

With that said, there should be a different benchmark in Set Details for Rocky Helmet variants.
 
Just FYI Muk, the EVs needed to 2HKO with unboosted Return and the EVs needed to OHKO with +2 Return are different. The former takes into account Leftovers recovery; the latter does not. AtK's spread is correct in that it doesn't allow Mega Pinsir to 2HKO assuming Lefties.

With that said, there should be a different benchmark in Set Details for Rocky Helmet variants.

I know that, but he had said Return from +2 Pinsir, not 2 Returns from Pinsir. And yes, I'll make note of things like that in Set Details.
 
i think the OP is the best set possible with protect slashed before knock off.

protect + leech seed is cool, sure, but it is hard to fit with gyros multitude of targets e.g. sub mawile which could get a free kill otherwise. similarly, knock off has merit in that slot as well just as an overall 'annoyer' move. it works particularly well with sweepers who appreciate skarmory / talonflame etc. items gone.
 
Pytra said:
252 HP / 104+ Def / 152 SpD should be the spread for Ferrothorn.
It allows to avoid a 2HKO from Manaphy's Ice Beam at +3, making it a great counter to Tail Glow Manaphy.
With this spread, Ferrothorn can tank as well on the physical side as the special side.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 122-144 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 58.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 69.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 136-160 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-129 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 133-157 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 44+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 132-156 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 130-153 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 141-166 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so what benchmark are we deciding on btw?
this one seems alright.
 
i don't like the set in the op because i don't think sr is compulsory whatsoever. i prefer to run leech/protect/whip/knock typically, and substitute sr over knock or maybe protect if i have to. i also am not really a big fan of gyro, but i know other people like gyro. leech / protect | sr / whip / gyro | knock | sr, is a slightly altered version of the set i posted earlier that accounts for these two possibilities.

agree on 252/104+/152 spread, or 252/88+/168, either is fine.
 
Ferrothorn is an excellent addition to nearly any balance, semi-stall, or even full stall team. As the best Leech Seed user in the tier, it not only supports it's teammates with hazards, but a nice cushion to help set up and take hits. Since Ferrothorn is inherently a supportive Pokemon, it's most common moveset and this analysis should reflect that. Leech Seed is absolutely mandatory, and you have that covered. Protect synergies so well with Leech Seed+Leftovers, and offers a valuable scouting tool, against Choice users especially. I would argue that Protect deserves the second slot, instead of two slashes. Ferrothorn is one of the best mons you can have to lay your Rocks down, unless you're playing against DragMag, which is obliviously a lot less common this gen. Basically, if you have a Ferrothorn, there's no reason to waste a moveslot on Rocks on one of your other Pokemon, unless it's stall and you want like Spikes Ferro. Non-hazard Ferro is worse than hazard Ferro imo. You already have Stealth Rocks as the main slot, but i'm just validating that it's optimal. Gyro Ball is really only for Kye-B, and guaranteed damage on stuff like Lando-I, Pinsir, Mawile and Lati@s. However, between all the Hp Fire Lati running around, Fire Fang Mawile, possible Hp Fire Kye-B, Focus Blast Lando, and Gyro's extremely low PP, I never run it myself, unless i'm super weak to Kye-B or Pinsir. Power Whip hits the Water/Ground/Rocks Ferro is supposed to be countering, and should remain the primary damage tool.

TL;DR: I suggest you change the set to:

-Leech Seed
-Protect / Knock Off
-Stealth Rock
-Power Whip

Mention that Gyro Ball is almost exclusively for Kye-B, ensuring Mawile doesn't get Subs, and that it's low PP doesn't necessarily synergize well with Ferrothorn's kit. I wouldn't even slash it in the main move list, but that's just me, it probably deserves to be there, slash it next to Power Whip if anywhere. The utility of three support moves outweighs the benefits of running both STABs. You did a good job describing Knock Off's benefits, primarily hitting Aegislash and annoying switch-ins, an excellent supportive choice. You can mention that Knock Off actually stalls out Roost Lati@s, unlike Gyro Ball, due to it's low PP. The spread doesn't matter too much, the one you have listed is fine. Manaphy is kind of uncommon but that's not necessarily a bad benchmark.
 
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I've compared the two spreads, there's not big differencences.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 125-148 (35.5 - 42%) -- 83.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 156-184 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 122-144 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 58.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 121-144 (34.3 - 40.9%) -- 55.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 72.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-148 (35.2 - 42%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 239-282 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 69.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 136-160 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 137-162 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 142-168 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 142-169 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 267-315 (75.8 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 44+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 132-156 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 44+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 130-153 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 130-154 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 90-106 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 91-108 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Ferrothorn: 280-330 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 283-334 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Valentine, I appreciate your input, and I'll add in the things like the bit about Knock Off against Lati@s nm Gyro Ball beats them anyway unless they have HP/Def investment. However, based on all the, uh, difference in QC opinion, I honestly think it would be best to just leave the set as is (Leech Seed, Stealth Rock/Protect, Power Whip, Gyro Ball/Knock Off/Protect), unless anyone else would like to share their opinion. Leech Seed and Power Whip definitely need to be unslashed, but looks like it's totally up to personal/team preference after that. I would also like to leave Stealth Rock unslashed, but that's a lot more debatable.

I personally don't like Protect either for the reasons CyclicCompound mentioned.
 
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The move set up you have is weird af. Should be -
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Protect / Gyro Ball / Knock Off / (Thunder Wave)

With Leftovers as the item you will almost always want Protect to get as much HP back as you can with Leftovers + Leech Seed and the fact that you can scout effortlessly is an added bonus. Gyro Ball is cool and all but definitely isn't worthy of a first slot as most Ferrothorn don't run duo STAB or even duo attack. Thunder Wave is in parentheses because I'm debating whether or not it even deserves a mention in the set. If all else fails just talk about it in moves (which you have already).

Lastly
If Thunder Wave is used and a Steel-type move is deemed necessary, Iron Head is a suitable replacement&mdash;its flinch chance works well in tandem with Thunder Wave
....................remove any mention of Iron Head Ferrothorn, it's aids.
 
I would note in the overview that Ferrothorn's ability to "threaten most of its common switch-ins with the appropriate move" also gives it an awful case of 4MSS seeing as it can't really fit every possible "appropriate move" in a single moveset.

This looks very good.

QC Approved 1/3
 
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LpdDwGq.gif


QC APPROVED 3/3
 
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