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Flareon (Update)
- Thread starter Maugoross
- Start date
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Firecape: thanks, forgot those.
Phantom IV: also thanks as English isn't my first language.
Calentaros: Its already rejected once by QC and Flareon has bad speed, meaning its need huge amounts of invest to outspeed certain walls (like Milotic) lowering its attacking stats, no good physical STAB outside of Fire Fang and base 95 SpA doesn't really cut it (not 2HKOing Slowbro, Milotic, ... with its special moves). Its movepool isn't big so it needs to use Return for coverage. SR weakness stripping of 25% of its health
Blaziken has the Fighting-type, lowering the damage taken from SR, STAB on Superpower, more SpA and Spe, having more sets to be aware of...
Magmortar doesn't really outclass Flareon, but it has T-bolt, again higher SpA and Spe,...
All that Flareon has is higher Atk and SpD over those two and Wish. Flareon can Wish, something that other Fire-types can't do. Flareon is better defensive than offensive for me but I don't say the mixed set is bad, I've tested it but Blaziken does it better. If the other QC members do think it needs a set I'll put it in again.
Phantom IV: also thanks as English isn't my first language.
Calentaros: Its already rejected once by QC and Flareon has bad speed, meaning its need huge amounts of invest to outspeed certain walls (like Milotic) lowering its attacking stats, no good physical STAB outside of Fire Fang and base 95 SpA doesn't really cut it (not 2HKOing Slowbro, Milotic, ... with its special moves). Its movepool isn't big so it needs to use Return for coverage. SR weakness stripping of 25% of its health
Blaziken has the Fighting-type, lowering the damage taken from SR, STAB on Superpower, more SpA and Spe, having more sets to be aware of...
Magmortar doesn't really outclass Flareon, but it has T-bolt, again higher SpA and Spe,...
All that Flareon has is higher Atk and SpD over those two and Wish. Flareon can Wish, something that other Fire-types can't do. Flareon is better defensive than offensive for me but I don't say the mixed set is bad, I've tested it but Blaziken does it better. If the other QC members do think it needs a set I'll put it in again.
I just think its a good idea to at least mention the mixed set due to the fact that Flareon can switch into fire moves with impunity as well as get a flash fire boost for its fire blast. Giving Flareon one set (that in itself isn't that great due to its stealth rock weakness) is just too little and it's misleading given its albeit limited options. Having an analysis that blatantly ignores Flareon's best stat is just weird in itself.
I think the best way to go is to mention it in the analysis, but also admit that it is outclassed by Blaziken in most respects but is still viable in its own right. If an NU tier ever becomes standard i think it would be a better idea to have that set in the Analysis already. Nobody's looking into the Flareon Analysis for UU anyway.
Seriously... if people cared about analysis crowding so much why does Farfetch'd even have an analysis? Its outclassed by everything so you're saying we should delete every farfetch'd moveset except for SD+Flail?
I agree that Flareon can do it but still, I want other opinion's on this first but I think that everyone knows that Farfetch'd and co are useless and Flareon is NU because it's outclassed, it can do it but there are better options.
I'll mention a bit more about the mixed set in OC but I like to hear what QC members think of this.
What? Why?
Yeah, you're a sitting duck against SubRoost but...
Life Orb is the far more common set and Flareon is a fantastic switch-in and will often come out on top thanks to Wish/Protect/Toxic.
Timid LO Moltres Air Slash vs Flareon = 33% - 39%
Modest LO Moltres Air Slash vs Flareon = 36% - 43%
The only way you'll lose is via Air Flinch hax. Even if if you switch into Air Slash and Stealth Rock AND the opponent is Modest AND rolls max damage both times, he won't KO you. (assuming both attacks hit max damage two Modest LO Air Slashes do 86% so factoring in the Leftovers recovery you'll get on the switch and using a 'dry Protect' on the next turn to gain some further Leftovers Recovery Moltres will always fall short of the KO and ultimately succumb to Toxic). So that's worst case...if you keep SR off the field and don't switch into Air Slash then...you're laughing.
And what do you mean by 'can't do much back?' Toxic is a death sentence for LO Moltres and Wish/Protect makes things even worse for him. Put Moltres back! Thund agreed, not sure if you missed it.
Thund91 said:
On top of all that, if I can just speak from personal experience I don't recall my Flareon ever losing to a LO Moltres.
I'm still against the mixed set - we shouldn't have to promote the use of a shit set just because Flareon has 130 Atk. It's not even neccesarily anything to do with 'outclassing.' It's just flat-out a bad way to use Flareon...awful speed, average SpA, zero physical durability, forced to use lolReturn (always a bad sign). The only reason you'd use something like that is if you were such a Flareon fanboy that you were willing to handicap yourself solely to bag a few kills with your beloved 'mon and that's not the kind of thing Smogon caters to. If you want to use Flareon for its 'merits' then Wish set is the only way to go.
Seems like Offensive Moltres deserves a mention, however I'd be really apprehensive about Sub versions (17.5% by the usage stats). If you happen to come in on one, you'll be facing down a full HP Moltres behind a sub, and that usually gives teams problems. Not to mention that Flareon was supposed to be your team's Moltres counter. Maybe include a caveat to watch out for Sub?
The reason why the Wallbreaker should be left out is not because it's outclassed, but because it isn't very impressive. Flareon is slow, Milotic outpaces it quite easily. It lacks power as it's forced to use Return and Superpower as it's main physical attacks. Hidden Power Grass and Fire Blast are not strong enough either coming off a 95 Base SpA (for a wall breaker, that won't cut it).
As of now:
EoEdit: Moving to UU because a certain last poster didn't.
As of now:
EoEdit: Moving to UU because a certain last poster didn't.
removals in red
additions in blue
ok a couple of things. i noticed that you tend to try to say too much within the span of a single sentence. you try to lump too many clauses together, so they end up unorganized and hard to decipher. try to organize your thoughts more clearly and don't be afraid to use multiple sentences to convey your message.
also: you overuse the words 'like' and 'as'. for (almost) every instance of 'like' in this analysis, it should have been 'such as'. 'like' is used when referring to more general comparisons: 'people like blueWind are too nooby for their own good'. 'such as' refers to specific examples of cases: 'there are many noobs on smogon; people such as blueWind and anachronism pollute the forums with their garbage.' as for 'as', using it instead of many viable alternatives 'because', 'since', etc. sounds repetitive, so changing up your word choice a bit makes the analysis more engaging.
overall, good analysis. withholding stamp until changes are made. also, I think this definitely needs additional check(s).
GP CHECK 1/x
EDIT: ok, now it should be there...hide tags didn't work right. thanks calentaros.
EDIT2: STAMPED
additions in blue
ok a couple of things. i noticed that you tend to try to say too much within the span of a single sentence. you try to lump too many clauses together, so they end up unorganized and hard to decipher. try to organize your thoughts more clearly and don't be afraid to use multiple sentences to convey your message.
also: you overuse the words 'like' and 'as'. for (almost) every instance of 'like' in this analysis, it should have been 'such as'. 'like' is used when referring to more general comparisons: 'people like blueWind are too nooby for their own good'. 'such as' refers to specific examples of cases: 'there are many noobs on smogon; people such as blueWind and anachronism pollute the forums with their garbage.' as for 'as', using it instead of many viable alternatives 'because', 'since', etc. sounds repetitive, so changing up your word choice a bit makes the analysis more engaging.
overall, good analysis. withholding stamp until changes are made. also, I think this definitely needs additional check(s).
GP CHECK 1/x
EDIT: ok, now it should be there...hide tags didn't work right. thanks calentaros.
EDIT2: STAMPED
Grammar-Prose Check 2/2:
additions/changes/comments in blue
removals in red
uragg needs to put his stamp here, lol. I'll put mine after your edits. I'm not sure about additional checks, but they would be welcomed (especially prose).
I think there might be too many examples being included in here (which leads to "such as" being everywhere). You may want to cut off on some examples, especially in the first Set Comments paragraph.
Also, any mentions of Roar? Could go in Optional Changes.
edit: wow, never thought of using "for example" and "for instance". I might have to steal those so I don't use "such as" everywhere too! Thank you for that!
additions/changes/comments in blue
removals in red
[Overview]
<p>Flareon is often considered one of the weaker 'Eeveelutions' due to his bad Defense, HP, and Speed; lack of strong physical STAB despite his high Attack stat; and Stealth Rock weakness thanks to his Fire typing.</p>
<p>However, even with all these drawbacks, Flareon can still perform some niche roles with his high Special Defense and access to Wish. Flareon is not 2HKOed by most bulky Water-types and is a great counter to specially offensive Grass-types and Moltres (without Toxic), which allows him ample opportunities to support his teammates with Wish and while attempting to stall out the opponent.</p>
(for the last part of the last sentence, i personally didn't like how "and attempt to stall out" didn't connect too well with "which allows him". it was really the "and" that was killing it so changing it to "while" seems to have the problem solved.)
[SET]
name: Wish
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
move 4: Toxic
nature: Calm
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is something that(space)Fire-types like(space)Blaziken and Houndoom can't do. Flareon's job is to keep his team healthy with Wish and stall the enemy out with a combination of Wish, Protect, (comma) and Toxic. Flareon can counter common threats such as offensive Moltres, special Venusaur, (comma) and Sceptile,(space)Arcanine (special and bulky sets without Toxic), Rotom, and Alakazam while stalling walls such as Chansey and even bulky Waters such as Milotic.</p>
<p>Lava Plume keeps physical attackers from switching in freely as they risk a burn, while Flamethrower has more Base Power and a lower burn rate, which may be beneficial when dealing with bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro as the burn grants them immunity to Toxic. The EVs ensure that 0 SpA Milotic, one of the most powerful bulky Water-types, never 2HKOes Flareon with Surf when factoring in Leftovers. They also let him take some physical attacks such as Arcanine's ExtremeSpeed, mixed Blaziken's Life Orb Superpower, (comma) and unboosted Life Orb Venusaur's Earthquake.</p>
<p>Flareon is weak to Stealth Rock so a spinner is valuable to Flareon. Donphan and Claydol are again good choices as they can spin Stealth Rock and Spikes away but and also lay Stealth Rock down by themselves. Blastoise takes the Water attacks that Flareon can't take like Azumarill's Waterfall and Flareon's Wish lets Blastoise last longer to spin. Hitmontop can spin against Ghost-types thanks to Foresight and yet again take Rock attacks.</p>
(this is repeated. delete this paragraph.)
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>As Flareon's Defense is nothing to write home about, a defensive Ground-type such as Donphan or Claydol is a good teammate to take the Rock- and Ground-type attacks aimed at Flareon. Fighting-types such as Hariyama and Hitmontop can also take Rock attacks and don't have a shared Water weakness. A Water-type such as Milotic is also a good partner to combat Fire-types who Flareon can't handle, such as Blaziken. Milotic also checks most Ground- and Rock-types, such as Rhyperior. Since Flareon can outstall bulky Water-types and troublesome walls, Pokemon who love having these out of the way, such as Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Sceptile, are also good partners.</p>
<p>Flareon is weak to Stealth Rock, so a spinner is valuable to Flareon. Donphan and Claydol are again good choices as they can spin Stealth Rock and Spikes away and also lay Stealth Rock down themselves. Blastoise can take the Water-type attacks that Flareon can't take, such as Azumarill's Waterfall. In return, Flareon's Wish lets Blastoise last longer to spin. Hitmontop can take Rock-type attacks and spin against Ghost-types thanks to Foresight.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>As mentioned, a Water-types is a are good teammates to take Water-type attacks and combat Ground-, Fire-, (comma) and Rock-types while Flareon takes Grass-type attacks. Milotic can handle Rhyperior, Blaziken, (comma) and Arcanine and the like and can go more offensive with Life Orb since Wish can help keep her healthy. Blastoise is also a good option as he can spin.(backspaced)</p>
(i'm not sure what to call milotic here but just make sure you stay parallel. if you're using he/she, don't use "it".)
<p>A Ground- or Rock-type like Claydol can take on Ground- and Rock-types with ease and set up Stealth Rock to put the hurt on the opponent's team. Claydol may also spin away Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes that hinder Flareon's chances to come in and start stalling. Fighting-types, however, have more synergy and numerous options; Poliwrath, who is immune to Water attacks; Hitmontop, who can spin; and Hariyama, who is bulky, all make good teammates.</p>
<p>Grass-types also take Water-type attacks and in return Flareon absorbs Fire-type attacks while getting a Flash Fire boost. Venusaur, thanks to his Poison-type, absorbs Toxic Spikes on the switch in and attracts Fire attacks while Flareon keeps his health up with Wish. A Swords Dance variant can be a particularly effective partner, as Flareon checks one of Swords Dance Venusaur's biggest counters, Moltres.</p>
<p>As mentioned multiple times before, Flareon counters Moltres and Arcanine without Toxic. SubRoost Moltres and bulky Arcanine with Toxic turn the tables on Flareon, so defensive Altaria with Heal Bell is a good teammate since he can check both and heal status afflictions with Heal Bell.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Flareon's movepool is shallow but he still has some options. Yawn can be used to force the opponent out under the threat of sleep. A mixed attacker with Superpower / Fire Blast / Return / Hidden Power Grass may be used for breaking down walls such as Clefable and Steelix more easily, but is outclassed by Magmortar and Blaziken as they are faster and hit harder. Quick Attack provides priority, but with no STAB and weak Base Power, Return is almost always a better option. Will-O-Wisp burns physical attackers such as Azumarill and Rhyperior who want to hit Flareon on his weaker Defense stat, but Lava Plume still has a good 30% chance to burn switch-ins. You can use Fire Fang and a Careful nature on the Wish set since Flareon's Attack is higher than its Special Attack; you hit Chansey and specially defensive Pokémon such as Registeel harder, but with the low Base Power of Fire Fang and high Defense stats of other counters such as Rhyperior and Donphan, it is a lesser option.</p>
<p>A Choice Band set lets Flareon hit harder but again is outclassed since Flareon has no good physical STAB outside of Fire Fang. Choice Specs runs off Flareon's lower Special Attack stat, but Overheat can dent any Pokemon who doesn't resist it. A Baton Pass set with Wish, Lava Plume, and either Substitute or Curse could be useful, but Flareon has no real opportunities to set up and is outclassed by Blaziken, who has access to Agility and Swords Dance.</p>
<p>Always max out Flareon's low HP stat and invest in his good SpD for a more defensive set. 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD lets Flareon take most special attacks with ease and survive some physical attacks, such as an Earthquake from Life Orb Venusaur or a Superpower from mixed Blaziken. For more Speed, 140 EVs with a neutral nature allow Flareon to outspeed 4 Speed Milotic and Venusaur, while 168 EVs outspeed 0 Speed Base 85s. However, it is almost always more useful to invest in Flareon's defenses as he already outspeeds some slower walls like Slowbro who don't invest in Speed. </p>
[Counters]
<p>Most Rock- and Ground-types are counters to sets without Hidden Power Grass or Superpower but they need to watch out for a burn from Lava Plume. Bulky Water-types can be outstalled by the standard set but are good counters to the offensive sets. Although not as common, more offensive Water-types such as Calm Mind Slowbro or Life Orb Milotic can 2HKO or even OHKO Flareon with Hydro Pump or Surf. ResTalkers, such as Spiritomb, can just Rest off the poison and stall Flareon out.</p>
<p>Flareon is Stealth Rock weak and has many weaknesses to common types, such as Ground and Water, so getting Stealth Rock and Spikes on the field will severely limit his lifespan.</p>
<p>Flareon is often considered one of the weaker 'Eeveelutions' due to his bad Defense, HP, and Speed; lack of strong physical STAB despite his high Attack stat; and Stealth Rock weakness thanks to his Fire typing.</p>
<p>However, even with all these drawbacks, Flareon can still perform some niche roles with his high Special Defense and access to Wish. Flareon is not 2HKOed by most bulky Water-types and is a great counter to specially offensive Grass-types and Moltres (without Toxic), which allows him ample opportunities to support his teammates with Wish and while attempting to stall out the opponent.</p>
(for the last part of the last sentence, i personally didn't like how "and attempt to stall out" didn't connect too well with "which allows him". it was really the "and" that was killing it so changing it to "while" seems to have the problem solved.)
[SET]
name: Wish
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
move 4: Toxic
nature: Calm
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is something that(space)Fire-types like(space)Blaziken and Houndoom can't do. Flareon's job is to keep his team healthy with Wish and stall the enemy out with a combination of Wish, Protect, (comma) and Toxic. Flareon can counter common threats such as offensive Moltres, special Venusaur, (comma) and Sceptile,(space)Arcanine (special and bulky sets without Toxic), Rotom, and Alakazam while stalling walls such as Chansey and even bulky Waters such as Milotic.</p>
<p>Lava Plume keeps physical attackers from switching in freely as they risk a burn, while Flamethrower has more Base Power and a lower burn rate, which may be beneficial when dealing with bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro as the burn grants them immunity to Toxic. The EVs ensure that 0 SpA Milotic, one of the most powerful bulky Water-types, never 2HKOes Flareon with Surf when factoring in Leftovers. They also let him take some physical attacks such as Arcanine's ExtremeSpeed, mixed Blaziken's Life Orb Superpower, (comma) and unboosted Life Orb Venusaur's Earthquake.</p>
<p>Flareon is weak to Stealth Rock so a spinner is valuable to Flareon. Donphan and Claydol are again good choices as they can spin Stealth Rock and Spikes away but and also lay Stealth Rock down by themselves. Blastoise takes the Water attacks that Flareon can't take like Azumarill's Waterfall and Flareon's Wish lets Blastoise last longer to spin. Hitmontop can spin against Ghost-types thanks to Foresight and yet again take Rock attacks.</p>
(this is repeated. delete this paragraph.)
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>As Flareon's Defense is nothing to write home about, a defensive Ground-type such as Donphan or Claydol is a good teammate to take the Rock- and Ground-type attacks aimed at Flareon. Fighting-types such as Hariyama and Hitmontop can also take Rock attacks and don't have a shared Water weakness. A Water-type such as Milotic is also a good partner to combat Fire-types who Flareon can't handle, such as Blaziken. Milotic also checks most Ground- and Rock-types, such as Rhyperior. Since Flareon can outstall bulky Water-types and troublesome walls, Pokemon who love having these out of the way, such as Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Sceptile, are also good partners.</p>
<p>Flareon is weak to Stealth Rock, so a spinner is valuable to Flareon. Donphan and Claydol are again good choices as they can spin Stealth Rock and Spikes away and also lay Stealth Rock down themselves. Blastoise can take the Water-type attacks that Flareon can't take, such as Azumarill's Waterfall. In return, Flareon's Wish lets Blastoise last longer to spin. Hitmontop can take Rock-type attacks and spin against Ghost-types thanks to Foresight.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>As mentioned, a Water-types is a are good teammates to take Water-type attacks and combat Ground-, Fire-, (comma) and Rock-types while Flareon takes Grass-type attacks. Milotic can handle Rhyperior, Blaziken, (comma) and Arcanine and the like and can go more offensive with Life Orb since Wish can help keep her healthy. Blastoise is also a good option as he can spin.(backspaced)</p>
(i'm not sure what to call milotic here but just make sure you stay parallel. if you're using he/she, don't use "it".)
<p>A Ground- or Rock-type like Claydol can take on Ground- and Rock-types with ease and set up Stealth Rock to put the hurt on the opponent's team. Claydol may also spin away Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes that hinder Flareon's chances to come in and start stalling. Fighting-types, however, have more synergy and numerous options; Poliwrath, who is immune to Water attacks; Hitmontop, who can spin; and Hariyama, who is bulky, all make good teammates.</p>
<p>Grass-types also take Water-type attacks and in return Flareon absorbs Fire-type attacks while getting a Flash Fire boost. Venusaur, thanks to his Poison-type, absorbs Toxic Spikes on the switch in and attracts Fire attacks while Flareon keeps his health up with Wish. A Swords Dance variant can be a particularly effective partner, as Flareon checks one of Swords Dance Venusaur's biggest counters, Moltres.</p>
<p>As mentioned multiple times before, Flareon counters Moltres and Arcanine without Toxic. SubRoost Moltres and bulky Arcanine with Toxic turn the tables on Flareon, so defensive Altaria with Heal Bell is a good teammate since he can check both and heal status afflictions with Heal Bell.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Flareon's movepool is shallow but he still has some options. Yawn can be used to force the opponent out under the threat of sleep. A mixed attacker with Superpower / Fire Blast / Return / Hidden Power Grass may be used for breaking down walls such as Clefable and Steelix more easily, but is outclassed by Magmortar and Blaziken as they are faster and hit harder. Quick Attack provides priority, but with no STAB and weak Base Power, Return is almost always a better option. Will-O-Wisp burns physical attackers such as Azumarill and Rhyperior who want to hit Flareon on his weaker Defense stat, but Lava Plume still has a good 30% chance to burn switch-ins. You can use Fire Fang and a Careful nature on the Wish set since Flareon's Attack is higher than its Special Attack; you hit Chansey and specially defensive Pokémon such as Registeel harder, but with the low Base Power of Fire Fang and high Defense stats of other counters such as Rhyperior and Donphan, it is a lesser option.</p>
<p>A Choice Band set lets Flareon hit harder but again is outclassed since Flareon has no good physical STAB outside of Fire Fang. Choice Specs runs off Flareon's lower Special Attack stat, but Overheat can dent any Pokemon who doesn't resist it. A Baton Pass set with Wish, Lava Plume, and either Substitute or Curse could be useful, but Flareon has no real opportunities to set up and is outclassed by Blaziken, who has access to Agility and Swords Dance.</p>
<p>Always max out Flareon's low HP stat and invest in his good SpD for a more defensive set. 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD lets Flareon take most special attacks with ease and survive some physical attacks, such as an Earthquake from Life Orb Venusaur or a Superpower from mixed Blaziken. For more Speed, 140 EVs with a neutral nature allow Flareon to outspeed 4 Speed Milotic and Venusaur, while 168 EVs outspeed 0 Speed Base 85s. However, it is almost always more useful to invest in Flareon's defenses as he already outspeeds some slower walls like Slowbro who don't invest in Speed. </p>
[Counters]
<p>Most Rock- and Ground-types are counters to sets without Hidden Power Grass or Superpower but they need to watch out for a burn from Lava Plume. Bulky Water-types can be outstalled by the standard set but are good counters to the offensive sets. Although not as common, more offensive Water-types such as Calm Mind Slowbro or Life Orb Milotic can 2HKO or even OHKO Flareon with Hydro Pump or Surf. ResTalkers, such as Spiritomb, can just Rest off the poison and stall Flareon out.</p>
<p>Flareon is Stealth Rock weak and has many weaknesses to common types, such as Ground and Water, so getting Stealth Rock and Spikes on the field will severely limit his lifespan.</p>
uragg needs to put his stamp here, lol. I'll put mine after your edits. I'm not sure about additional checks, but they would be welcomed (especially prose).
I think there might be too many examples being included in here (which leads to "such as" being everywhere). You may want to cut off on some examples, especially in the first Set Comments paragraph.
Also, any mentions of Roar? Could go in Optional Changes.
edit: wow, never thought of using "for example" and "for instance". I might have to steal those so I don't use "such as" everywhere too! Thank you for that!
Some minor fixes on the add-ons from Optional Changes.
Flareon can use Heal Bell but it's hard to give up one of his other moves and there are better choices such as (or synonym) Chansey and Clefable. Roar is good for shuffling the opponent's team around and stopping stat-uppers.</p>
Remember to stay consistent with your gender.
I also added my stamp on my other post. If you think this is ready, go ahead and contact a moderator. If you're still worried, go ask for another GP check.
Flareon can use Heal Bell but it's hard to give up one of his other moves and there are better choices such as (or synonym) Chansey and Clefable. Roar is good for shuffling the opponent's team around and stopping stat-uppers.</p>
Remember to stay consistent with your gender.
I also added my stamp on my other post. If you think this is ready, go ahead and contact a moderator. If you're still worried, go ask for another GP check.
- Status