Flat Battle / Random Battle Discussion

I doubt stall will go away, with no rules on evasion clause, even in a 1v1 - 3 on 3 battle it becomes quite strong.

But lacking clauses throws in a whole mess of risk factors that I'm not really used to dealing with outside battle tower, much less against sentient opponents.
 
Only 3 on 3 battles in singles? The banning of 600BST legendaries? Random Wifi is way too restrictive. I would have enjoyed further customizing the abilitity to search for matches (ex: 6 vs 6, Sleep clause, no item clause, etc) but instead GF shoves their ruleset down our throats... Oh well, back to searching matches on the forums... Why can't GF listen to their fans like Capcom or Valve!?!

(Yes I am aware that the 600BST legendaries are banned because they're event legendaries... its still stupid)
Personally I'd rather have all event legends banned than have to fight Darkrai and Deoxys every battle.

Also, having too many options would spread people out and make it really hard to find battles in whatever specific ruleset you're looking for. It might be worthwhile in local battles or friend code battles, but I think it would be too cumbersome on random wifi.
 
I doubt stall will go away, with no rules on evasion clause, even in a 1v1 - 3 on 3 battle it becomes quite strong.

But lacking clauses throws in a whole mess of risk factors that I'm not really used to dealing with outside battle tower, much less against sentient opponents.
It's not worth risking eating a CH and losing a Pokemon while doing almost nothing to theirs.
 
It's not worth risking eating a CH and losing a Pokemon while doing almost nothing to theirs.
You don't double team when you're in that kind of danger, obviously. :)

Think of something like SkarmBliss. Two very defensive pokemon with recovery moves. Double team compliments that by taking your wall and making it so (on average) you will last longer, and need to recover less often. Stall is all about a slow steady kill, you wont die to a single crit.

It's less useful on glass cannon type pokemon (like weavile), and would arguably be a huge risky bet that will make your matches count on luck. That doesn't make it less valid for stall.
 
The biggest piss for me is the fact that you either have to have a 3v3 battle or manually get you Pokemon all up to Level 100.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Speaking of Double Team, Clear Smog takes care of that problem quite effectively, unless you're fighting Steel types.
 
Personally I'd rather have all event legends banned than have to fight Darkrai and Deoxys every battle.
He may mean the "fairies" of each game, the straight 100 Base Stat pokemon, who are more often than not allowed in OU.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
He may mean the "fairies" of each game, the straight 100 Base Stat pokemon, who are more often than not allowed in OU.
In Gen 4, the Base 100 Pokemon allowed in OU were Celebi, Jirachi, and Shaymin. The ones banned to Ubers were Mew and Manaphy. (Skymin doesn't count since it's not base 100 across the board).

In Gen 5, all Base 100 Pokemon except Manaphy are allowed into OU...so far.

So yeah, you're right on the money.


I can see the reasoning behind banning the event-only Pokemon species. Most of them are absurdly powerful in their own right, very often giving the non-mascot legendaries a run for their money. A few have been shown to be absurdly overpowered in this kind of playing field (which is why Skymin, Darkrai, some Deoxys forms, Arceus, and Manaphy are banned to Ubers on Smogon).

In an overly simplistic point of view, if you don't have access to one (and you can't get one over GTS unless you see one in your game...which is nearly impossible if you don't trade), you're often at a disadvantage over someone who does. It's not like you can go out and catch or breed one, like you can any other Pokemon.

In other words, banning the event Pokemon it puts everyone on an even, and more balanced, playing field.

It's one of the reasons I never got into TCGs like Magic; tracking down rare event cards just to stand a competitive chance isn't my idea of fun.

God could you imagine if Arceus was allowed at VGCs? Probably every team would have one given the chance.
 
Y'know, I just realized...


If you can somehow manage to put all of the opponent's pokemon to sleep, and you have a phazer, it's literally impossible for any of them to ever wake up due to new sleep mechanics.
 
It's one of the reasons I never got into TCGs like Magic; tracking down rare event cards just to stand a competitive chance isn't my idea of fun.
I'd just like to point out that that's not how Magic generally works - event cards are more pimped than non-event cards, but provide no gameplay benefit. There were a couple unique cards not available from packs, but those are all illegal for tournament use and often don't work within the confines of the game's rules.

The real reason you shouldn't get into MTG is because a competitive Standard deck runs something like $200 to assemble, and will probably be worth less than $50 total within a couple years. It's only worse when you start getting into other formats which use older and, by extension, more expensive cards.

But to actually be on topic, I actually think these rules are kinda interesting. I know Gen IV Tower you could do naughty things with a fast Breloom, but I think the changes to how sleep works (and, to a much lesser extent, the change to multi-hit attacks) will make it far riskier to try to pull it off.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Back on topic, I wonder how effective certain stratgies are in the 3v3 game.

It seems that setting up stealth rocks, spikes, etc might be harder to pull off with anything other than a fast lead like Azelf or Aerodactyl. It might even be a waste of time, since you're forced to use a more focused team, and losing a single team member hurts a lot harder than 6v6.

A weather team would be hard to counter without changing the weather, but with team preview the other team could see it coming.

OHKO moves are a definite wild card. No pokemon "resist" all of them (and Sheer Cold is arguably the best of the bunch) without the Sturdy ability. Good thing OHKO moves ignore accuracy and evasion changes, or else they would be 50%.

I can see Zoroark thriving in this environment, even if it never gets used and only shows in team preview. Unlike 6v6, 3v3 you don't need to use zoroark if you bring it, further driving the mind games.
 
Unlike 6v6, 3v3 you don't need to use zoroark if you bring it, further driving the mind games.
This is a good point I hadn't considered. I don't completely understand Illusion, especially in my personal favorite, Doubles, so I can't extrapolate on how it will to ought to be used.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Illusion makes Zoroark look like the Pokemon that is in your final team slot, until it takes direct damage. So if your team consists of Zoroark, Reuniclus, and Gyarados (in that order), Zoroark will look like Gyarados. Mechanics work the same in doubles.

Illusion reapplies when Zoroark switches back in, as well. I haven't played with it much, but in theory the illusion can change around if you switch around.

Of course the obvious flaw with Illusion is that it doesn't copy abilities like Intimidate, making certain disguises useless. Zoroark also takes normal stealth rocks damage, which can break the illusion if it switches in on rocks. And of course, Zoroark is very frail, so it won't take hard hits well.

But again, just because you bring it, doesn't mean you have to use it. That Conkeldurr that you think is a Zoroark might really be a Conkeldurr after all.
 
I'd just like to point out that that's not how Magic generally works - event cards are more pimped than non-event cards, but provide no gameplay benefit. There were a couple unique cards not available from packs, but those are all illegal for tournament use and often don't work within the confines of the game's rules.
Well, with a few exceptions - stuff like Arena and Nalathni Dragon. But you're unlikely to want to use them anyway.

Now, getting into Vintage seriously and tracking down the Power Nine... That's pretty pricey. (Even a relatively cheap dredge deck is going to require expensive Bazaars...)
 
So if your team consists of Zoroark, Reuniclus, and Gyarados (in that order), Zoroark will look like Gyarados
What I'm confused about is, what if your party is Reuniclus, Zoroark, Gyarados, and you send in Gyarados right after Reuninclus? Does Zoroark's illusion then become Reuniclus when it comes out since--for the time being--Reuniclus is in the last team slot now?
 
I've only had a chance to play BW for a couple hours thus far, so I'm not clear on the details - I assume that Team Preview only lets you see species, not stats/abilities/movesets, right?

Well, with a few exceptions - stuff like Arena and Nalathni Dragon. But you're unlikely to want to use them anyway.
Ok, fair enough, checking Gatherer, there are 4 cards that have never seen an in-pack printing that are tournament legal: Nalathni Dragon, Mana Crypt, Sewers of Estark, and Windseeker Centaur (Arena was reprinted in Time Spiral). Of course, only Mana Crypt isn't laughably terrible, and as such is the only one that costs more than $1.49 online (it costs about $70, which is cheap in comparison to many cards on the Vintage restricted list).

It's also worth noting that I believe all those tournament-legal never-found-in-packs cards were magazine freebies rather than true event giveaways. I was specifically thinking about stuff like 1996 World Champion, Proposal, and Fruitcake Elemental.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Correct. Team preview only shows species (not sure about forms though ). It does not show anything else.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
It shows formes (except Arceus and Genesect).

Anyways this thread is about the official meta stuff and not about Magic lol, but just to make my post useful

In Singles Random Match

1) With limited teamslots, I've found weather to be a less effective maneuver than it is in OU (it's still good though, but not as good). If your team is built solely around weather, the opponent can simply jam three of their anti-weather Pokemon in and leave you with no chance to set up / deal too much damage. Of course, people will find ways to get around this (e.g a team of Politoed/Kingdra/Heracross), but they also sacrifice their own slot for it, ultimately making their weather less threatening.

2) Spikes and Stealth Rock aren't anywhere as effective but don't disregard their existence.

3) Yawn is a pretty annoying move due to no sleep clause

4) OHKOes are indeed wildcards, but I haven't seen much, probably due to its unreliability (given the overall pace of the matches. I mean it's 3 on 3 come on), and it may be a bigger risk to run it than to save the moveslot for something else

5) Zoroark is very annoying

6) Latios is excellent in this metagame, noticeably moreso than in OU. Given less room for dedicated defensive Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, who's kindof common since it covers a lot of things), and Latios' ability to switch into certain offensive threats, it can wreak havoc pretty effectively. Plus, there are less Pursuits, and there is no Jirachi to fully wall it. Latias is great too.
 
It'll be interesting to see how common-place OU strategies fare when stripped down to 3v3. Stall teams become slightly harder to pull off successfully, because if you get out-predicted even once or CH'd, you're toast. Weather is gonna be a hard sell, unless you have Politoed/Ninetales/Tyranitar/Abomasnow as your lead. TR has good potential, except you're likely to fall victim to Taunt or a OHKO. Though, due to how random the encounters are, odds are you'll just be fighting a team of three crammed together Pokes (assuming you're playing in-game Random Matches). So really, any strategy, as long as you have one, will probably dominate.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Though, due to how random the encounters are, odds are you'll just be fighting a team of three crammed together Pokes (assuming you're playing in-game Random Matches). So really, any strategy, as long as you have one, will probably dominate.
Ehh I don't think so

Although you do see ingame crams now and then, most of the teams played in random match are to a degree competent (unlike in PBR).

5) Zoroark is very annoying
little entry hazards to "break" the illusion, the option of not even appearing in the 3 choices makes it aggravating to fight. On the other side, it can reveal 2/3 of the team though...
 

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