Formula 1 2013

[WoShiDavid]

The half-term driver rankings are out: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/08/13/2013-f1-season-half-term-driver-rankings-22-11/

Personally I wonder why is Grosjean and especially Perez in the top 10. The MP4-28 is a dog of a car but Button has over double his points and not to mention the accident he caused with Raikkonen at Monaco… Grosjean had great weekends at Bahrain, Germany and to a lesser extent Hungary but the weekend he had at Monaco and lack of pace compared to 2012 doesn’t justify his place in the top 10 IMO. I’d place Grosjean 11th and Perez at 12th or lower, pushing the Force India duo to the top 10. Speaking of them, they deserve to be in the top 10 IMO, Sutil overtook 2 former WDCs at the narrowest circuit of the year and Di Resta managed to make his tyres last for 57 laps at Montreal; not seeing Perez do anything that spectacular. The only notable mistake the Force India duo has made this year so far was Sutil’s spin at Montreal so I'd say Di Resta should be 9th while Sutil is 10th.

My top 10 ranking for the half-term would be:

1) Vettel
2) Raikkonen
3) Hamilton
4) Alonso
5) Rosberg
6) Button
7) Webber
8) Hulkenberg
9) Di Resta
10) Sutil

Without a doubt Vettel is #1 given his metronomic consistency, were it not for a faulty gearbox at Silverstone he would be so much further ahead in the standings. I was contemplating whether to put Raikkonen or Hamilton in 2nd but IMO Raikkonen got it because Hamilton isn't exactly wiping the floor with Rosberg, with Monaco being the prime example. Alonso is 4th, crashing into the back of Vettel at Malaysia is not the kind of error the most highly rated driver (As well as earning over double the amount of the likes of Hamilton and Vettel) should be making.

What are your opinions?

 

[WoShiDavid]

Belgian GP over... IMO it was pretty boring, after Vettel slipstreamed past Hamilton the winner was decided; the qualifying was a lot more exciting with 2 Marussias and a Caterham making it to Q2, not something you see everyday. The only interesting part of the race IMO was the whole Gutierrez-Maldonado-Sutil-Di Resta tangle that ended up in Di Resta's retirement... he was of course blameless for the incident but what about the other 3, was Maldonado's penalty justified? Likewise for Perez's penalty for forcing Grosjean off the track. [ Speaking of Grosjean, if he triggered a repeat of last year that would have been quite the spectacle, although Lotus would probably have him fired :p ]
Oh and it's sad to see Raikkonen's points-scoring streak come to an end but I suppose your luck will have to run out one day :/ He was also just 3 races away from breaking Heidfeld's record of 41 consecutive race finishes so I guess it'll be at least another 2 years before that record is broken. Discuss~

 

[DHR-107]

I totally forgot about this thread :3

Belgian GP wasn't as good as it has been in recent years. I honestly do not know where Vettel got that speed from, the RB's have never been THAT strong at Spa... I am worried about Monza now. Force Indias has the usual strong showing, until Maldanado tried to take them BOTH out... They really need to sort that Pit entry at Spa, its pretty ridiculous, especially with SO much space coming off that final sweeping corner. I am pretty sure that same accident has happened almost every year.

Top guys so far for me this season? I don't really know. Most guys are performing pretty "averagely" in terms of performance. Mercedes are definitely punching above their weight, but with the expertise they have in the cars that's not entirely shocking. Button is doing well and should be compared to Perez (who imo is having too many incidents even for a young gun). Di Resta is maturing as a driver and not getting as frustrated as he has been before, a solid result in Monza would more than make up for the lack of sure points finish in Spa.

 

[WoShiDavid]

I totally forgot about this thread :3

Belgian GP wasn't as good as it has been in recent years. I honestly do not know where Vettel got that speed from, the RB's have never been THAT strong at Spa... I am worried about Monza now. Force Indias has the usual strong showing, until Maldanado tried to take them BOTH out... They really need to sort that Pit entry at Spa, its pretty ridiculous, especially with SO much space coming off that final sweeping corner. I am pretty sure that same accident has happened almost every year.

Top guys so far for me this season? I don't really know. Most guys are performing pretty "averagely" in terms of performance. Mercedes are definitely punching above their weight, but with the expertise they have in the cars that's not entirely shocking. Button is doing well and should be compared to Perez (who imo is having too many incidents even for a young gun). Di Resta is maturing as a driver and not getting as frustrated as he has been before, a solid result in Monza would more than make up for the lack of sure points finish in Spa.

What makes it even more amazing was that Vettel was told to look after his tyres as soon as the 2nd-3rd lap and still managed to finish about 30 seconds ahead of Webber and I believe 10+ seconds ahead of Alonso... yeah you can say that Webber was held up by Rosberg but if Vettel can effortlessly slipstream past Hamilton then Vettel clearly must be doing something right. Doubt that it's enough to silence his naysayers though, only way for them to stop doubting him is to move to Ferrari and start giving Alonso a massive headache IMO. With Ricciardo confirmed as his teammate next year he suffers yet another blow to his reputation as he's checkmated, basically if he wipes the floor with Ricciardo they'll be like '#2 driver who never had a chance' but in the unlikely scenario he loses they'll be like 'Hah so it was all down to the car'. That aside:

From this video it appeared that Maldonado wanted to go into the pits but Gutierrez had the inside line and as such the moment he tried to go in he was cut off by Sutil and it triggered the subsequent collision with Di Resta... I don't think I can blame Sutil, unless he is telepathic there is no way he would have known that Maldonado was going to pit as Maldonado isn't his teammate. I can't blame Gutierrez either, he was merely doing his job by overtaking Maldonado. Maldonado COULD have just let them all through since he was pitting anyway but as a racing driver you would instinctively defend your position and besides, he would be on the losing end because by the time the other 3 have made their stops they would probably emerge ahead. I think the stop-go penalty was too harsh, I'd probably just give him a reprimand. Like you said, the problem mostly lies with how the chicane was designed, as seen from this incident it can have disastrous consequences. I think the reason he was given such a harsh penalty whereas Chilton only got a drive-through despite causing a race-stopping crash in Monaco (Especially when it was 100% Chilton's fault while this incident in Spa has a lot of gray areas) is because of his reputation as a reckless driver whereas Chilton is a rookie who hasn't had a reputation yet. With that being said, should a driver's reputation be a criterion for the imposition of penalties? Personally I feel that they should only take into account the nature of the incident and not the driver's reputation, because I think it's unfair discrimination against drivers like Grosjean and Maldonado but eh, that's just me.

In 2 days we shall have Monza and this is the track where the Red Bulls have never really excelled, so perhaps it's a time for Ferrari to mount a comeback, and possibly Mercedes and Lotus as well. Speaking of Monza, I really dislike the tifosi that gather around... I mean seriously, they even booed Hamilton last year when he won, like seriously what the hell? I mean I can sort of see where they're coming from if it's Vettel (Even if it's still not justified) as he's making the races rather boring by winning so often but this isn't even him they're booing. If there's a reason for me to dislike Ferrari, this is pretty much the main reason; their fans are just incapable of accepting that Alonso/Ferrari is not entitled to wins and that if they want to win they'll have to work for it. Such uncivilised people *Roll eyes* Ranting aside, I really hope that Ferrari/Mercedes/Lotus can mount a comeback at Monza because otherwise the season will become really boring with Vettel leading all the way... not that I can blame him but still, remove him from the WDC standings and you'll see a close 3-way battle between Alonso/Hamilton/Raikkonen.

 

[twash]

Monza was lame, cba to even begin to talk about it. It's a shame because Spa and Monza are usually both awesome, but this year they've been dire. Praying 2014 is close and the regulation changes do not give a massive advantage to any team (repeating it for the millionth time, Vettel has this year wrapped up already and I'm expecting complete domination in the flyaway races). More importantly, rumour mill has suddenly gone crazy the past couple of hours saying Kimi is defs going to Ferrari with it expected to be confirmed tomorrow. If true, Massa will presumably retire (or go to Caterham/Virgin, though I'd imagine that would be unlikely), and Hulkenberg then to Lotus.

Either way, Kimi/Alonso and Hamilton/Rosberg have got to be the best potential lineups on the grid by miles. Although Rosberg is still a bit of a question mark with his consistency, he has pushed Hamilton decently. Barring perhaps Alo/Ham (up for debate), I can't really think of a better lineup in a long, long time... Possibly even back to the Senna/Prost days.

 

[WoShiDavid]

Monza was lame, cba to even begin to talk about it. It's a shame because Spa and Monza are usually both awesome, but this year they've been dire. Praying 2014 is close and the regulation changes do not give a massive advantage to any team (repeating it for the millionth time, Vettel has this year wrapped up already and I'm expecting complete domination in the flyaway races). More importantly, rumour mill has suddenly gone crazy the past couple of hours saying Kimi is defs going to Ferrari with it expected to be confirmed tomorrow. If true, Massa will presumably retire (or go to Caterham/Virgin, though I'd imagine that would be unlikely), and Hulkenberg then to Lotus.

Either way, Kimi/Alonso and Hamilton/Rosberg have got to be the best potential lineups on the grid by miles. Although Rosberg is still a bit of a question mark with his consistency, he has pushed Hamilton decently. Barring perhaps Alo/Ham (up for debate), I can't really think of a better lineup in a long, long time... Possibly even back to the Senna/Prost days.

Ah yes, I'd want Alonso/Raikkonen at Ferrari as well with Hulkenberg/Grosjean at Lotus. Massa did deliver a pretty decent performance at Monza but it's a little too late for that, he has underperformed far too much to deserve yet another chance at Ferrari (Especially with far more promising drivers out there) and I'm pretty sure most people would share this sentiment. Although based solely on merit, it should be Hulkenberg at the second Red Bull seat and not Ricciardo. Like really, the reason Ricciardo got the Red Bull seat is 90%+ attributed to Toro Rosso's connections to Red Bull and not his driving talents; he isn't that much better than Vergne, whom as we all know was completely overlooked; probably because he isn't an Australian like Webber. Pretty unfair if you ask me, but ranting aside, those would be the most desirable driver pairings for 2014.

 

[DHR-107]

Massa should of never been given so many chances to come back from his accident. It's clear to everyone that he just has not had that last little piece that was there before the accident happened. It's great what he has come back and done (even getting close to Alonso is impressive) but I don't think he should of lasted the three seasons he has. I know that sounds cruel, but he's just not got it in him anymore to be a great driver as opposed to being "merely" good.

On that topic, I cannot imagine Alonso allowing Raikkonen to be his team mate... Unless it is to finally prove his doubters wrong and he is the fastest guy out there. We all know how quick Raikkonen can be on occasion, but the metronomic consistency that Alonso has is crazy. Raikkonen will really have to stick it to Alonso if they end up in the same car... There could be explosions if this is the case. I really do not think they will get on all that well...

Monza was naff. Red Bull have never been that strong there, and for some reason this year they are miles ahead of everyone else. It seems super strange all things considered. Even the Force India's were weak on a track in the last few years they have done exceptionally well on. I don't think anyone can challenge the Red Bull machine now... Unless something ridiculous happens Vettel has this season more than won quite comfortably. I wish we still went to the old Hockenheimring... I much prefer that track over the new iteration, and we get to see the cars in low downforce trim more than once a season. The races that are left are basically a Red Bull whitewash... I'd honestly be surprised if they didn't win every race left unless something catastrophic happens.

 

[WoShiDavid]

Ah yes, throughout his career Alonso had encountered 2 teammates who could challenge him, them being Trulli in 2004 and Hamilton in 2007... and it didn't turn out so good, so if Raikkonen ends up as Alonso's teammate I think Alonso will probably go bonkers. He claims that he would welcome Vettel as his teammate but his falling out with McLaren says otherwise. While tennis' Big Four consists of Murray, Federer, Djokovic and Nadal, F1 has a Big Four of its own, naturally consisting of Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen. What Alonso lacks compared to the other 3, however, is his utter inability to put up with competitive teammates. Vettel coped well (for most of the part) with Webber mounting a WDC challenge down to the wire in 2010, Hamilton coexisted peacefully with Button in McLaren from 2010-2012 despite Button being the defending WDC upon joining and Raikkonen had no qualms with a pre-2010 Massa at Ferrari. Alonso on the other hand... yeah, no doubt he's one of the greats but this characteristic knocks him down a few notches for me.

The 2013 season is becoming quite a bore, ever since Pirelli changed their tyres since the whole Silverstone tyre fiasco, Vettel just dominates everything, with Force India being the biggest loser... like really, the way I see Sutil and Di Resta barely scraping to Q2 is pretty painful when they could regularly challenge for points pre-Silverstone. Di Resta's first lap crash and Sutil's brake failure at Monza suggests that Force India's season is seriously going backwards, is there anything they can do to stop this downward spiral? Otherwise bring on 2014, at this rate it's not even going to be worth watching with Vettel dominating everything :/ Even I get bored of Vettel winning all the time, something like the 2010 season would be appreciated.

 

[peng]

People can change a lot in 6 years...

Not to mention i think Alonso's anger in 2007 was justified, although I think the extent I took it to was too far. He wasn't the favoured driver at McLaren despite coming off 2 consecutive WDCs and his teammate being in his rookie year - I'm sure most of the top drivers in the paddock and most of the people criticising him would probably get just as upset if they were in that position. Its completely different with Raikkonen because 1) Alonso is staying at ferrari rather than switching to a new team and 2) Raikkonen is a former world champion himself and not a rookie driver. The respect is between them is already there and its not like ferrari are favouring some relatively unproven kid over Alonso next year. I don't think Alonso will enjoy having Kimi as his teammate because it'll seriously hurt his title chances, but I'm confident he won't be anywhere near as out of hand as 2007 in terms of actively hurting his teammates qualifying strategy etc. The guy has clearly matured a lot in the last 6 years imo.

---------

Massa just announced he's leaving Ferrari at the end of the year, now waiting on the Kimi announcement. Probably means Hulkenberg to Lotus, the only other place theres maybe space is McLaren who still haven't confirmed contracts fsr despite Whitmarsh telling everyone he owes Jenson / Sergio another year. I don't know if Massa will find a decent seat anywhere given that he's directly up against Hulkenberg for any competitive ones. I can maybe see him going back to Sauber if this Russian deal gives them enough cash that they don't need Gutierrez's cash, but otherwise it looks like he'll be a back-marker or just retiring this year. Either way I'd love to see him on the podium again at interlagos this year, would be an amazing way for him to go out.

 

[WoShiDavid]

Well McLaren always had the policy of treating their drivers equally, and their rationale for doing so has been perfectly justified seeing that Hamilton was able to challenge for the WDC even in his rookie year. If Alonso wants #1 status he'll have to earn it and prove that he's superior to Hamilton (Which he hasn't) instead of feeling entitled to it, especially at a team that always had the policy of treating their drivers equally; why else was there such a fierce rivalry between Prost and Senna?

 

[DHR-107]

Looks like it happened...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24042352

Raikkonen is joining Alonso at Ferrari... Potentially the fastest pair of drivers in a team we have ever seen. Only the Hamilton/Alonso pairing has come close in recent years. I'm not so sure on this move to be honest. They both have a lot to lose if it all goes a bit wrong and they don;t like each other very much. I am assuming Ferrari just want to plug Raikkonen in for race weekends and have Alonso/Fisi do all the development work on the car. I doubt Raikkonen would have it any other way. The fact that the rumours tend to say that it was all Monty's idea (as in no one else got a say) rings pretty true... I really do not think Alonso would of accepted it if he had had a say in the decision...

So we have what? 3 or 4 teams were sure line ups next season?

Red Bull - Vettel/Ricciardo
Mercedes - Hamilton/Rosberg
Ferrari - Alonso/Raikkonen
McLaren - Button/Perez

Are any of the other drivers confirmed for next season already? I'd be surprised if no one else was on more than 1 year contracts apart from the final few guys down the bottom of the grid. Of all of those newer guys only Bianchi has really showed some sort of pace/surprising ability.

 

[twash]

Totally agree Massa had too many chances, can't see him going to Sauber as they always recruit young bucks (probs with £££ next year, unfortunately). Gotta retire or go to a minnow team.

I don't see why people care about Alonso having #1 status. If I'm trying to win something, I will do almost anything to win. He has had the whole team behind him for four years, credit to him for managing that. He might come across like a dick in the process, but you have to say having a team mate that will do anything for you to save his seat is a pretty good way to attempt a championship run. From what I have always understood, McLaren gave Alonso assurances that he would be treated as a double world champion and the best driver on the grid when he went to McLaren. The whole Hamilton thing was completely overblown.

Also, Kimi simply dgaf about politics whereas Alonso does. He rarely gets involved in squabbles, and I can't ever remember him and Alonso falling out? I can't see them doing anything other than race. Whether one will dominate the other we will have to see, but it's been a question in F1 for almost a decade now so I'm damn excited to find out (my two fave drivers, aaaah). I don't think it will be a mistake as I think both are old and wise enough now to just race, they both have plenty of respect for each other. Either way, I think it's the right move for Ferrari in terms of the constructors. And possibly for the drivers too, having two top drivers take points off other teams can work out nicely (let's face it, Massa never took points off title challengers in the past few years heh). Also McLaren haven't taken up their option next year on either of their drivers, but I can't really see them changing it next year at least.

 

[WoShiDavid]

2014 would be exciting... unless Ricciardo can improve tremendously I expect Ferrari to challenge Red Bull for the WCC and possibly overhaul them, although I predict that Vettel would still have the edge for the WDC. When was the last time Ferrari hired 2 top drivers? I think they must have figured that if they can't win the WDC, they should at least challenge for the WCC :P Now Lotus should seriously hire Hulkenberg if they know what's good for them, he's been overlooked for far too long.

 

[DHR-107]

Ricciardo will improve a lot purely because of the car. Honestly, he needs to win a race next season. I don't know if that would be realistically possible, but if Red Bull/Vettel are winning then Ricciardo has to do it somewhere too. I am super looking forward to how the new regs change the look of the cars and how the V6 engines sound...

We are now getting rumours that Massa might go to Lotus... Whether that will happen is yet to be seen, I don't think Lotus should be giving Massa the time of day what with Hulkenberg/Di Resta/Bianchi floating around. I also heard a rumour that Hulkenberg had a contract with Ferrari... And was informed of Raikkonen taking the seat by text message... Whether that is true or not is anyones guess. Still, if it is that's pretty shitty from Ferrari.

 

[WoShiDavid]

Massa to Lotus? Oh please no, he has seriously underperformed in a Ferrari for 4 years straight, how would changing teams make it any better? My vote for the Lotus seat is Hulkenberg without a second thought, someone who can overtake both McLarens rainy conditions and almost win (Interlagos 2012) and outqualify both Ferraris on their home race is a huge talent that definitely deserves a better seat. To me Di Resta is just meh, apart from Montreal and maybe Bahrain I haven't really seen anything exceptional and his overall advantage over Sutil is just marginal. To top it off he had that nasty first lap shunt at Monza, which is definitely getting him marked down by the top teams, if he was actually in contention in the first place. Bianchi... not really sure about him, being in a Marussia makes it hard to judge.

 

[WoShiDavid]

First their technical director, then their star driver and now their head of aerodynamics. Ferrari has somehow managed to divert resources away from Lotus and I fear that Lotus may see a catastrophic lost in performance in 2014 if they're unable to find suitable replacements.

 

[twash]

McLaren have admitted they want Alonso next season. Tbf I don't think any team could deny him, amusing thought but can't see it happening... If I were Hulk I wouldn't sign the Lotus contract yet, though.

 

[DHR-107]

I think that story is kinda ridiculous really... Why would Alonso go to McLaren after the year they have had? Seems really weird for me, even including the chance of Honda engines in 2015 (Which Imo will be McLarens best shot at the title). I thought they would be a lot better this year but the way they went about the car has totally baffled me.

Singapore GP this weekend is always good for some spectacular racing. They have changed that awful chicane at Turn 10 so now it is a sweeping (albeit tight) left hander which might see some overtaking action as other people have tried it into that corner previously with the dodgy chicane. Hamilton was quickest in P1 from Webber and Vettel... :( Looks like Vettel might be cruising easily to Title Number 4...

 

[WoShiDavid]

Ah yes, the infamous Singapore Sling... I have mixed feelings about its removal, on one hand safety is not compromised (I remember Kobayashi and a few others who ended up in the barriers because of it) but then driver skill is harder to discern. Yay for F1 to finally arrive at my area of residence, but I wonder why don't they just host it after the Malaysian GP considering our extremely close proximity >_> That aside, will Webber finally outqualify Vettel this week? I mean Vettel is unquestionably the better driver but come on, I expect Webber to get the upper hand at least a few times; even the then crash-prone erratic Petrov outqualified star driver Kubica on merit twice in 2010. Is Vettel really just that good or is Webber underperforming the car?

 

[DHR-107]

Well...

What a boring race. I actually left for about 50 minutes after the first ten laps, came back and it was exactly how I left... By far the worst race of the season.

Vettel/Red Bull winning everything is really killing my love of F1. Like, I sat through the Schumacher years. I dealt with this shit before, but at least then other stuff would happen that was interesting... This time around the best thing we saw were the last 7 or so laps fighting over 6~10th place.... I don't really want to watch that.

 

[twash]

Agreed, I watched the Schumacher era and it didn't seem as boring as this does. This year has been awful for fans imo (and has got worse as it has gone on), stoked for the regulation changes next year but hoping no team dominates like Brawn '09.

Also Webber and Alonso got reprimands for the lift, and as it was Webber's third of the year he got a 10 place penalty for Korea. I know rules are there for a reason and they were warned not to do it by marshals but... ouch. Probably didn't expect that!

 

[WoShiDavid]

I agree that Vettel winning constantly is indeed making it boring, but we should not fault him for doing so, that's his job after all. The way he drove today was rather reminiscent of Senna, he was lapping about 2 seconds faster than everybody else and could have probably lapped the entire field were it not for the safety car. Red Bull are indeed quick, but if Webber is somehow behind Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen in the standings then clearly Vettel's doing something right... I'd place the blame on the other teams for not taking the challenge up to the formidable Vettel/Red Bull combination. Also, it's not exactly like the Schumi era, have we forgotten 2012 and especially 2010, where we saw 4 drivers in contention for the WDC? Vettel won 2 of his WDCs by slim margins.

 

[phalanx]

somehow?
Webber keeps getting technical issues.

 

[WoShiDavid]

somehow?
Webber keeps getting technical issues.

Except that that is not the case and people should seriously stop cooking up baseless conspiracy theories: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1/forum/topic/vettel-webber-and-reliability-at-red-bull/

 

[twash]

His technical issues don't explain a 117pt gap to Vettel (or even a 57pt gap to Alonso). Webber is really not on the same level. He wasn't half as good in 2010 as people make out, and that was supposedly his best year. Plus a lot more is made of many of his "technical issues" than what should be.