Freed Pokemon

[Heysup]

This thread for discussing formerly Ubers Gen 5 Pokemon that are getting freed with the release of Gen 6.

• Carvanha
• Meditite
• Gligar
• Scyther
• Sneasel
• Tangela
• Vulpix
• Yanma

Carvanha

Base Stats: 45 HP / 90 Atk / 20 Def / 65 SpA / 20 SpD / 65 Spe
Ability: Speed Boost
Opinion: Carvanha has always had its uses and I don't see it changing. Before it received Speed Boost in Gen 5, it was a regular wall breaker that had access to a priority move to hinder revenge killers. However, now it is built for sweeping. Speed Boost, high Attack (and Special Attack), and the same movepool that made it an incredible wall breaker all add up to be a very big threat. If you were looking for something to accept a Gligar Swords Dance, this it it.
Counters/Checks: Carvanha does have some counters and checks even though nothing quite enjoys switching in. Anything very bulky that remains neutral to Carvanha's STABs and not weak to things like Zen Headbutt will do a lot of good. Obviously Tangela jumps out as something that walls every physical oriented Carvanha, and even checks special variants. Wooper, Lileep, and other odd-ball Pokemon can switch into Carvanha and Recover off the damage. Even with Zen Headbutt, Timburr can be a decent switch-in with Mach Punch to threaten Carvanha's frail defenses and its immense bulk to take a Waterfall if it has to. If you're looking to revenge, stay away from Fake Out because Carvanha tends to use Protect. Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and maybe a powerful ExtremeSpeed will do the trick against Carvanha, but the problem is that most the Pokemon that use these moves will need prediction to get in.
Meditite

Base Stats: 30 HP / 40 Atk / 55 Def / 40 SpA / 55 SpD / 60 Spe
Ability: Pure Power, (Telepathy)
Opinion: Meditite was initially scary because of his monstrous Attack combined with a Choice Scarf or Life Orb priority, making him almost impossible to wall and revenge kill. These sets were very popular throughout early Gen 5 LC because there were still powerhouses in the tier. However, it was quickly discovered (with the huge impact of Eviolite) that Meditite was the simply the best Pokemon in the tier (at the time) because of other reasons. Since Sneasel, Scyther, etc. got banned, and with the help of Eviolite and some bulky EVs, Meditite soon became one of the hardest Pokemon to deal with. It had very solid coverage with STABs and Ice Punch and couldn't even be KOed by anything besides Acrobatics Gligar. Drain Punch and Recover supplied Meditite with insane longevity while still posting 24-26 Attack. I'm not sure if it gets anything new like Knock Off, but Meditite is scary enough as is.
Counters/Checks: Switching into Meditite was a job for very few Pokemon and it usually relying heavily on prediction. Frillish and Misdreavus were somewhat reliable with HP and great typing, however it still hurts when Meditite threw a surprise Zen Headbutt. Murkrow could switch into Zen Headbutt and KO with Brave Bird, but risks getting destroyed by anything else. Revenge killing was difficult with Eviolite, but Shadow Balls from Misdreavus and Brave Birds from Murkrow are the best bet. If it's hit with Toxic I'm also fairly sure Eviolite Gligar can stall it out. Drifloon's Acrobatics set can set up on it as well.

Gligar

Base Stats: 65 HP / 75 Atk / 105 Def / 35 SpA / 65 SpD / 85 Spe
Ability: Hyper Cutter, Sand Veil
Opinion: Gligar was one of the last Pokemon to go on the Ban list and it is always a very curious case. In Gligar's history, it has always been tip-toeing on the line of broken and not broken. What keeps it on the line is the fact that its specific sets are were generally referred to as not broken, but what eventually pushed it over is the fact that it had so many viable sets that needed different counters, checks, and methods of dealing with them. Leading the sets was the famous Swords Dance set that used Flying Gem and Acrobatics along with Earthquake. The fourth move made Gligar scary because it could be a 4th coverage move or Baton Pass, which helped it cope with the hard counters that it had...making them not very hard counters at all. Also Sand Veil....
Counters/Checks: Gligar's most reliable counter was probably Bronzor. Bronzor was tickled by Flying attacks and immune to Gligar's powerful Earthquake. Anything faster with HP Ice also checked it, but considering the nerf, I'm not sure that's going to be an option anymore. Scarf Misdreavus with Icy Wind was actually a thing for a while. Frillish hit it with STAB Surf and could take a couple attacks due to its bulk.
Sneasel

Base Stats: 55 HP / 95 Atk / 55 Def / 35 SpA / 75 SpD / 115 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus, etc.
Opinion: It's a little concerning that people do not think Sneasel will absolutely dominate the metagame right away. The only thing Sneasel was missing was a powerful Dark-type STAB attack, and guess what, Knock Off happened. With Knock Off, I'm fairly certain Sneasel can 2HKO anything that switches into it. And unless you have a Pokemon with 16 Speed and a Choice Scarf, it will get both of those attacks off. Sneasel moves at a blistering 23 Speed with a Jolly nature. You can't even switch in something that survives by the skin of its teeth because of STAB Ice Shard. Sneasel is, in my opinion, the scariest Pokemon in the metagame simply because of its Speed and ability to wall-break, revenge kill, and sweep. It's going to be my favorite switch-in for Knock Off, because it doesn't rely on items as much as defensive Pokemon do.
Checks/Counters: You need to go for the strong Fighting-types such as Timburr. Bulky Mienfoo is even 2HKOed by Ice Punch (and with SR is potentially 2HKOed by Knock Off + Ice Punch). Same thing to revenge kill Sneasel, it isn't as bulky as Scyther, but it still will probably take most attacks you would throw at it.
Tangela

Base Stats: 65 HP / 55 Atk / 115 Def / 100 SpA / 40 SpD / 60 Spe
Abilities: Regenerator, Chlorophyll
Opinion: Tangela has very high stats for Little Cup which is the primary reason it has not seen much time out of Ubers. Its Special Attack coupled with its insane Defense makes it a great check for basically everything, besides Pokémon that spam Fire Blast. Tangela's Special Attack is so high that I would have actually run mono-Grass SolarBeam self-setting up Sunny Day sweeper with Sleep Powder. If there is a 4x resist, you simply switch out or put it to Sleep (unless they are Grass...I don't think Sleep Powder works on Grass-types anymore). With Sun-boosted Synthesis and Eviolite, it's hard to kill Tangela without OHKOing it and its really hard to OHKO it without a big Fire Blast. Priority can't stop it (not even Sneasel's Ice Shard does anything) and SolarBeam melts through single resists. The other options are simple attacking/supporting with 3-2 attacks, status, and etc with Regenerator. It can switch in so many times per battle and hurt something in the process. Very powerful Pokémon.
Checks/Counters: Depends on its movepool. If Hidden Power is honestly not a thing anymore, than feel free to switch any 4x resist to Grass such as Ferroseed or any Grass/Poison and hit it with something on the special side. Depending on the Tangela's coverage move, assuming not mono grass, Vullaby can work well too.
Vulpix

Base Stats: 38 HP / 41 Atk / 40 Def / 50 SpA / 65 SpD / 65 Spe
Ability: Drought (, Flash Fire)
Opinion: I'm of the opinion that Vulpix itself was not the strong aspect of the game, it was the perma sun. Honestly, the Sunny Day sweepers were not too threatening unless you lacked priority, but with a metagame full of slow Eviolite Pokémon, Vulpix and its Sunny Day sweepers were very powerful. I don't think that's the case anymore. With 5 turn limit on Drought, Sunny Day is severely hindered.
Checks/Counters: As a Pokémon, Vulpix is relatively easily to switch into. To counter Sunny Day, simply use another weather, Protect, Substitute, or bulky Fire-types.
Yanma

Base Stats: 65 HP / 65 Atk / 45 Def / 75 SpA / 45 SpD / 95 Spe
Ability: Speed Boost, Compoundeyes
Opinion: Yanma is deadly in the same way Carvanha is, in that it has high offensive capabilities along with Speed boost. Yanma is arguably more dangerous due to its naturally higher Speed, but its Stealth Rock weakness makes it slightly harder to bring in multiple times during the battle. That said, it is naturally bulkier than Carvanha by a ton and actually takes most priority attacks pretty well. It can even run Roost to bypass Sucker Punch and heal up.
Checks/Counters: Yanma has an inherently hard time switching into things with Stealth Rock on the field, so it would be a good idea to put that up as soon as possible. Sneasel checks it with Ice Shard, though Yanma has higher bulk than one would think and can take a hit. It has a hard time breaking through Misdreavus, though a well predicted Shadow Ball or Air Slash does the trick. Munchlax is a great special wall and Yanma can't kill it without dying to Return first.

Note: Please do not discuss bans in Gen 6. For example, don't say "Pokemon X will probably be banned etc."

 

[leingodf8]

What needs to be said really, anyone who played LC early past generation knows what a force these guys are to play with, and a couple of them only got better this generation. Sneasel with knock off is actually absurd. Gligar yanma and carvahna didnt really change all that much and will probably just as good as before. With weathers nerf tangela will probably run regenerator more often, and vulpix is the only on in this group that took an actual noticable hit from the shift in mechanics. With knock off being improved, meditite might be a little easier to deal with. Also, honedge is actually a pretty damn good check to the little guy. Resistant or immune to its stabs, only worried about fire punch really, and a stab shadow sneak that can pretty much guarantee a 2hko if it gets in safely. It'll be interesting.

 

[Gerard]

I think Sneasel is very good. Knock Off is basically a 100 BP move that reduces defenses on anything that holds eviolite (which was 3/4 of LC last season) and it even got Icicle Crash this gen (though thankfully not legally with Knock Off), I mean Timburr is great to revenge but you'll be hard pressed to switch in in fear of losing your item, few things will miss the 2HKO of Knock Off + Coverage Move.

Of the other ones the one I USED to be the more exited was Tangela, I eman she's still awesome but with Knock off waiting in every corner the Bulky Regenerator set is not gonna be as good anymore, though it's hardly gonna be a bad one considering her great natural bulk and SpA, along with her offensive Chlorophyll set she's gonna be a powerful threat

 

[Delver]

Carvanha: I hate speed boost as an ability, cause i think its bullshit (every move because flame charge); but i dont see carvanha being intially broken. A lot of the big names in LC are fighters, many of the more underused of which have super effective priority (Timburr / croagunk <--- are the first in my head). Also its paper thin, and anythign that can tank a hit will most likely ohko it with a neutral attack

Tits: I see tits being banned again, unless the knock off buff really fucks with its sets (which i dont see happening). Huge power lets it have 20 attack without investment its ability just lets it do too much damage without even thinking about it. Eviolite compliments its bulk supremely well, and life orb sets will decimate basically everything. Its scarf set will probably be the best revenge killer in the teir. And thats all before discussing its really diverse move pool.

Gligar: Gligar is going to keep tits in line, and by that i mean force it to run ice punch or straight out lose to gligar. We unbanned him before and decided he was too broken to stay, I dont necessarily agree (Anymore, at least. It was a fun meta in retrospect), but the fact that we saw it ok to unban him in the first place might mean that with all the new toys gen 6 brough gligar is finally "good but not broken"

Sneasle: A waste of a suspect round. Statistically speaking it has over 1/4 the highest BST from last gen in its Speed stat alone. Backed by a 16-20 (depending on investment) attack stat and 55/55/75 defenses. Literally the only downside is its 4x weakness to fighting and its 2x weakness to steel, as those will be the only things capable of out speeding and hitting it (BUT LOL ICE SHARD). Sneasle only got buffs going into the new gen, with a stupid strong stab in Knock Off and the nerf to steel types making it so the only resists to its primary stab are fairy, fighting, and other dark types, none of which resist its secondary stab (without a secondary typing of their own. I think pawniard is the only one to resist both off the top my head. Carvanha to, but lol 20 defense why bother), I have no idea why people would think it'd be less broken now. Honestly think it should have been banned out right like scyther - its just too strong.

Tangela: Another candidate for a wasted suspect round, and probably the only thing that will keep sneasle remotely in line. I think the defensive spread would've been the big set even if vulpix remained banned, it can have a minimal investment in its special attack and still out damage most of the gen 5 teir while simultaneously being fatter than it.

Vulpix: Happy to see it out, this was something I always secretly wanted in gen5 LC, but knew was a bad idea. With the weather nerf and competing weathers i think it will be more managable than before. It definiately enables a *lot* of things to be super strong though (chlorophyll sweepers, if I need to say it). I suspect to see it re-banned, but im hoping to be prove wrong.

Yanma: Of the releases i think yanma will be the easiest to handle and most fun to support. Its offensive presence is very there, but rocks destroys it in the same way it breaks Volcarona in older tiers, and its typings bring with it a lot of weaknesses that one can take advantage of. It might still be too strong, but I think it is one of the more likely candidates to stay.

On the broader scale, my major hope is that these being released wont just add a power level to LC so high that other mons have no hope of competing with.

 

[prem]

honestly i think you guys are overexagerating sneasel a lot. i dont know if you guys have tested much or at all (okay i know heysup has but everyone else?), but from my "extensive testing" (not really enough games but i still think ive play more than almost anyone else besides maybe charmander and heysup) i really dont know why people are saying its broken. its literally just elekid 2.0. im so much more scared of murkrow than sneasel because sneasel actually doesnt hit nearly as hard as murkrow, has a weaker priority even if its less reliable, and is much harder to revenge because brave bird is that much scarier. sneasel 2hkos everything which means unless you can bring it in on something that is threatened by it in a situation where its not just easier to sack that mon and bring in something else, not easy at all from everything ive played, its jsut going to kill one thing at most and then not do too much. i also think you guys are overhyping knock off but thats for another thread


for everything else, carvahna and yanma are incredibly good / annoying because of speed boost so but by themselves they arent that bad. vulpix deserves to come back. tangela is a great physical wall and its really annoying to kill, but hoenstly its nothing that makes me go GOD DIE ALREADY. just using special attackers gets around it lol. gligar is not even a problem until it gets flight gem because its gonna be a defensive set or just never use knock off on it which means yeah use an ice move or jsut anything really. from my testing tits was really meh but idk i was just getting cockblocked by tangela who hardwalls tits to no end its depressing.

 

[tennisace]

Sneasel gets Icicle Crash now from breeding, so it now has a strong Dark STAB (that gets boosted 1.5x when the opponent has an item), a stronger Ice STAB with a flinch chance to go along with it outspeeding everything except a few Scarf mons, and priority to pick off said Scarf mons. It also no longer needs to run Brick Break to get around Steel-types. That coverage slot can be used on Poison Jab to get around Fairy-types. How exactly is this being overhyped when it was banned last gen and then got better.

 

[Heysup]

Yanma: Of the releases i think yanma will be the easiest to handle and most fun to support. Its offensive presence is very there, but rocks destroys it in the same way it breaks Volcarona in older tiers, and its typings bring with it a lot of weaknesses that one can take advantage of. It might still be too strong, but I think it is one of the more likely candidates to stay.

I don't agree with you that Yanma is the easiest to handle. There are two ways to see this, 1) I think Vulpix will be decent at best. It will barely get used even in a metagame with Tangela around, such that it will be the easiest to handle. 2) Yanma is an absolute beast that hits on the Special side of the spectrum with endless Speed - its really hard to stop once its rolling. 75 SpA is not that crazy, but it by comparison it is much higher than most Pokemon. You also have to consider that Yanma does have the defense to take a hit and I'm noticing Stealth Rock is harder to set up because of the new powerhouses - there isn't much time to do it.

 

[prem]

Sneasel gets Icicle Crash now from breeding, so it now has a strong Dark STAB (that gets boosted 1.5x when the opponent has an item), a stronger Ice STAB with a flinch chance to go along with it outspeeding everything except a few Scarf mons, and priority to pick off said Scarf mons. It also no longer needs to run Brick Break to get around Steel-types. That coverage slot can be used on Poison Jab to get around Fairy-types. How exactly is this being overhyped when it was banned last gen and then got better.

was it even tested last gen? i mean i could be wrong but it was initially banned and never unbanned. whats the point of bringing up something that was just assumed broken and banned especially since from what i know the beginning of bw no one abused eviolite.


you cant run knock off and icicle crash together, which is actually a big deal. you have to use ice punch if you want to use knock off and that move is just as painfully weak as knock off. knock off is NOT a strong stab whatsoever. its strong the turn you use it when they have the item, but its a 65 basepower mov. thats considered weak and you know it . ice punch is also really weak. i dont know about you but the ability to outspeed everything not actually kill them doesnt sound way too broken to me. and you literally run brick break to beat other sneasels because that shit will cost you the game, its not like steel types were ever a real thing in lc outside of mite.

im saying its being overhyped because all i think im seeing is theorymon. i could be wrong and all you guys have played a lot of games like me and have seen what sneasel can do but i have found him incredibly lackluster in basically everygame i play if im using him or not. i even tried eviolite sneasel and thought it was okay at best because its defensive typing doesnt really let it switch into anything. i mean i could easily be told im playing with him wrong, you guys could have tested stuff, but from my experiences its not really the biggest threat of the meta and there are a lot more things that are significantly more difficult to deal with. if you guys play a sample of games and still think sneasel is the most broken shit in the world then i guess im wrong but i just dont feel like those games have been played

 

[Heysup]

75 base power would arguably weak if you weren't using it with base 95 Attack AND against Pokemon without Eviolite equipped. I say arguably because 75 is not actually that bad even without those things considered. In the current custom games etc Sneasel has been already making a huge impact (honestly some games come down to Sneasel vs Sneasel speed ties). This is before people figure out how to use Swords Dance Berry Juice Sneasel among other sets.


It isn't ALL theorymon, Sneasel actually was unbanned last Gen even though that's not a completely valid indication of its power this Gen, it still got a chance to be freed once before.

 

[tennisace]

if knock off and icicle crash are both egg moves then they're legal together as per gen6 breeding mechanics. you're right though, i'm going off of theory just like everyone else in this forum.

 

[kingmidas]

I believe that gligar will have the biggest impact on the metagame then the other freed mons in its ability to have multiple roles effectively and in terms of how it usually outlasts other banned mons while still being dominant. Gligar has many ways of supporting a team, whether it is SR, knock off, toxic, or just checking fighting types without ice typed attacks. First off, its bulk is incredible, and its typing is amazing with almost unresisted coverage (fuck bronzor)
and many key resistances that allow it to check most of the tier. Second, its movepool is just icing on the cake, it has u-turn and the support options I said early, but it can also run flying gem acrobatics sets, SR pivot with knock off and uturn, or even sword dance baton pass. 19 speed is also a nice benchmark but is kinda shadowed by the other freed mons. Overall gligar will be a great supporter, and will have the biggest impact on the metagame than the other freed mons imo.

 

[Pen Ink]

basically i find sneasel extremely underwhelming. its typing is pretty shit and it's moves just don't do enough damage. having knock off and a high speed and attack is not going to make this pokemon good when ice punch, it's main stab, has a horrible base power. life orb wears it down too much and it doesn't hit hard enough with eviolite. its also extremely predictable in most cases.

yanma is good but the 4x sr weakness is still a huge hindrance to it. really i hate being forced to either use tentacool / staryu to spin or save a great special sweeper until late game because it can't switch in. it has roost but then you're basically wasting a turn getting back hp and you'll probably take more than 50% or just get forced out the next turn (ie switch into fletchling). it also doesn't help that it has major 4mss (oh i want to run bug buzz but u-turn is viable but i want roost too and what about giga drain etc etc).

don't get me wrong yanma and sneasel are still great but i think people overestimate them and just blatantly assume that they're op based on BST or previous bannings of them. i'd advise people to actually test these mons before you post anything.

 

[Heysup]

basically i find sneasel extremely underwhelming. its typing is pretty shit and it's moves just don't do enough damage. having knock off and a high speed and attack is not going to make this pokemon good when ice punch, it's main stab, has a horrible base power. life orb wears it down too much and it doesn't hit hard enough with eviolite. its also extremely predictable in most cases.

I would like to note that just because something doesn't OHKO everything in the tier does not mean it isn't doing "enough damage" to be too much for most teams to handle. Sneasel comes in and KOes something or 2HKOes the switch-in. If you switch, barring very impressive prediction and luck, you are going to lose a Pokemon. If you let it revenge kill you, you are losing a Pokemon. How is that not "enough damage"? You have to horribly misplay Sneasel to not get at least one KO out of it in a game. We aren't talking about banning yet, but I still think that the argument that Sneasel is too weak is....well....a weak one at best.

 

[Chieliee]

yanma is good but the 4x sr weakness is still a huge hindrance to it. really i hate being forced to either use tentacool / staryu to spin or save a great special sweeper until late game because it can't switch in. it has roost but then you're basically wasting a turn getting back hp and you'll probably take more than 50% or just get forced out the next turn (ie switch into fletchling). it also doesn't help that it has major 4mss (oh i want to run bug buzz but u-turn is viable but i want roost too and what about giga drain etc etc)

There's a thing called Defog now. Just run it on Gligar or Vullaby and you're fine.

air slash/bug buzz/hp ground/giga drain is all you need

on the topic of sneasel: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebanklcbeta-58627604

yeah, pretty broken imo

 

[Pen Ink]

I would like to note that just because something doesn't OHKO everything in the tier does not mean it isn't doing "enough damage" to be too much for most teams to handle. Sneasel comes in and KOes something or 2HKOes the switch-in. If you switch, barring very impressive prediction and luck, you are going to lose a Pokemon. If you let it revenge kill you, you are losing a Pokemon. How is that not "enough damage"? You have to horribly misplay Sneasel to not get at least one KO out of it in a game. We aren't talking about banning yet, but I still think that the argument that Sneasel is too weak is....well....a weak one at best.

what i mean by "it's too weak" is that it's not doing enough damage throughout the match to be a gigantic threat. normally sneasel ohko's or 2hko's one pokemon and then it's forced out because it lacks the power to ohko the next threat since its best attack is ice punch. unless it's sent out on something that its moves are super effective on it doesn't really do much. it suffers from 4mss imo too but that's besides the point. i'm not denying that sneasel is very good but it's not amazing because it can nuke anything it wants with a strong 120 base power attack or a gigantic attacking stat.

 

[Heysup]

Sounds to me like you have to sacrifice one Pokemon in order to force Sneasel out......

 

[prem]

I would like to note that just because something doesn't OHKO everything in the tier does not mean it isn't doing "enough damage" to be too much for most teams to handle. Sneasel comes in and KOes something or 2HKOes the switch-in. If you switch, barring very impressive prediction and luck, you are going to lose a Pokemon. If you let it revenge kill you, you are losing a Pokemon. How is that not "enough damage"? You have to horribly misplay Sneasel to not get at least one KO out of it in a game. We aren't talking about banning yet, but I still think that the argument that Sneasel is too weak is....well....a weak one at best.

im basically 100% agreeing with pen here. i literally just see sneasel as elekid with like 10 or 20% more damage. both pokemon will basicalyl die to every hit (yes i know sneasel has bulk but it does die to like every neutral stab hit that is worth a damn) and both can easily 2hko everything in the tier. im not doubting that its a good pokemon, but its really not as amazing as everyone says its in. you really dont ahve to sacrifice a pokemon to force it out its called bring something like timbur or croagunk that can take a knock off easily force it out with priority, and can easily take an ice punch. i have actually had games where sneasel was effectively useless because of stuff like this. you also cant really spam knock off like everyone thinks you can because if you just use a knock off predicting a switch they can totally just not switch and kill your shit. thats also happened to me with a gligar. you have to play sneasel really fucking well and much better than ive ever had to play murkrow (who i compare sneasel to the most offensively because they both are just spoken of as bring in watch shit die) because sneasel just doesnt hit nearly as hard as murkrow. it is a good pokemon just way too overhyped imo for what it really does especially since i havent even gotten into pokemon like growlithe, snubbul, and other things; just fighting types that can wreck it.

and yeah i know we arent talking about banning yet but honestly idgaf and we should at least make ideas of what should be banned even if we dont say BAN THIS RIGHT NOW. and right now i dont see it as the biggest issue in this metagame when there are quite a few other things that are just more painful to deal with. especially if we take sneasel out of the equation then those things are dumb as shit lol

There's a thing called Defog now. Just run it on Gligar or Vullaby and you're fine.

air slash/bug buzz/hp ground/giga drain is all you need

on the topic of sneasel: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebanklcbeta-58627604

yeah, pretty broken imo

i dont see whats broken there. you literally only won because of the ponyta hax early game, otherwise tirtouga wouldve just flat out won but letting you use your ice shards and then aqua jetting.

 

[Heysup]

im basically 100% agreeing with pen here. i literally just see sneasel as elekid with like 10 or 20% more damage. both pokemon will basicalyl die to every hit (yes i know sneasel has bulk but it does die to like every neutral stab hit that is worth a damn) and both can easily 2hko everything in the tier. im not doubting that its a good pokemon, but its really not as amazing as everyone says its in. you really dont ahve to sacrifice a pokemon to force it out its called bring something like timbur or croagunk that can take a knock off easily force it out with priority, and can easily take an ice punch. i have actually had games where sneasel was effectively useless because of stuff like this. you also cant really spam knock off like everyone thinks you can because if you just use a knock off predicting a switch they can totally just not switch and kill your shit. thats also happened to me with a gligar. you have to play sneasel really fucking well and much better than ive ever had to play murkrow (who i compare sneasel to the most offensively because they both are just spoken of as bring in watch shit die) because sneasel just doesnt hit nearly as hard as murkrow. it is a good pokemon just way too overhyped imo for what it really does especially since i havent even gotten into pokemon like growlithe, snubbul, and other things; just fighting types that can wreck it.

and yeah i know we arent talking about banning yet but honestly idgaf and we should at least make ideas of what should be banned even if we dont say BAN THIS RIGHT NOW. and right now i dont see it as the biggest issue in this metagame when there are quite a few other things that are just more painful to deal with. especially if we take sneasel out of the equation then those things are dumb as shit lol

Sneasel and Elekid share approximately nothing in common except for the fact that they can both run Life Orb sweepers. Comparing them suggests that Sneasel requires as much prediction to 2HKO certain Pokemon and severely understating the importance of removing your opponents items. You bring out Timburr or Croagunk and predict Knock Off? Well now you have an evioliteless even more wallable Pokemon out. I will agree that Murkrow is currently harder to switch into, but I deny that it's because of anything besides the metagame centralizing around Sneasel. What does everyone have on their team? A Sneasel check. What are they? Pokemon weak to Brave bird, think about it. Sneasel also gives the ability to revenge kill more Pokemon than either of your two comparisons because of its Speed. In addition, I believe you're under playing the possibility of Swords Dance. I can't wait until you guys run into a Swords Dance Sneasel who will OHKO an knocked off Croagunk or Timburr with Ice Shard.

 

[prem]

Sneasel and Elekid share approximately nothing in common except for the fact that they can both run Life Orb sweepers. Comparing them suggests that Sneasel requires as much prediction to 2HKO certain Pokemon and severely understating the importance of removing your opponents items. You bring out Timburr or Croagunk and predict Knock Off? Well now you have an evioliteless even more wallable Pokemon out. I will agree that Murkrow is currently harder to switch into, but I deny that it's because of anything besides the metagame centralizing around Sneasel. What does everyone have on their team? A Sneasel check. What are they? Pokemon weak to Brave bird, think about it. Sneasel also gives the ability to revenge kill more Pokemon than either of your two comparisons because of its Speed. In addition, I believe you're under playing the possibility of Swords Dance. I can't wait until you guys run into a Swords Dance Sneasel who will OHKO an knocked off Croagunk or Timburr with Ice Shard.

they are both frail as fuck life orb sweepers with the ability to 2hko the whole metagame for the most part. i dont run timbur or croagunk cause that shit hits too weak anyway but if they get knocked off i dont care because their purpose was to stop sneasel and if they did that they did their job. i wouldnt bring them on a team otherwise cause honestly thats their only real purpose in this metagame. murkrow is just more scary to me when i think about it. there are so many less things that can switch into a brave bird than that can switch into an ice punch/knock off and shrug it off. im not thinking in this metagame im just thinking of lc in general. my sneasel checks arent really weak to murkrow persay. i mean scarffoo cant switch into either murkrow or sneasel so its just a revenger, a swirlix which is a decent check to both, sneasel itself cause speedties, and my plan is to just sticky web control for sneasel when thats legal on ps. i mean im not runnign any bulky balanced stuff. im just working around sneasel because i literally dont believe it can come in at any point besides after a kill in which case i just either sac something or let something take the knock off because half of my pokemon dont even need their item. i guess the only speed difference sneasel has over elekid is that it can outspeed slow scarfers and slow ddances, but honestly you PROBABLY arent running those right now because of sneasel so elekid is literally functionally the same imo. like when i was playing with briyella basically everything i did with sneasel i could have easily done with elekid, provided it was easier with sneasel.

also i would love to see someone try to set up swords dance on me with sneasel when literally 100% of my team can and will easily oneshot or threaten sneasel.


also heysup i think you are confusing what at least im saying. i cant speak for penink, but what im saying about sneasel is that hes being OVERHYPED; yes hes a really fucking good pokemon, no doubt. is he the top pokemon in the tier i wont say that but hes definately top 5 in my books. im just saying that peoples reactions with statements like WASTE OF A SUSPECT ROUND. THIS THING IS 100% BROKEN are wrong. it really isnt as good as most people are SAYING. it is definately great but im feeling its overhyped. there are a lot of ways around it that people can find. literally bulky fighting types, bulky fairy types, just outspeeding it, proper thought of what items are worthless, teambuilding with the idea that it shouldnt be safe ever, are all ways to get around sneasel. i wasnt even innovative with sets and i get around sneasel like all the time. i hardly see it come in i hardly see it do anything to me except maybe last pokemon speed tie with sneasel if i messed up/ the other guy is just good. all im saying is that people are over reacting to something that is big. its like the initial gligar ban where people banwagoned it to banning. provided it was actually broken (i dont actually think sneasel will stay lol) it was killed without people like trying to think of outs to it; i mean the reason why gligar was rebanned wasnt because of just the acrogem but because of its baton pass that ruined everything that countered it. so maybe sd sneasel will change my view on it right now, but as of now i think people just need to think of ways to get around sneasel because it can be done, instead of just complaining about it and go WHY ISNT THIS BANNED

 

[blarajan]

If you talk about bans, the same will happen to you. Explore the tier and innovate. Assume Little Cup stays the same until Pokebank and discuss.

 

[Heysup]

I'm not denying that there are ways around Sneasel, I'm just saying that they are not reliable (they have 1 switch in maximum) and are not as threatening. And they lose to a different set. Sneasel is not just "top tier", Sneasel's defining the metagame right now.

 

[Punchshroom]

Why are Elekid and Sneasel being compared? Elekid doesn't outspeed the entire unboosted tier by itself, not does it have a boosting move to actually sweep. Also, even if Icicle Crash isn't currently compatible with Knock Off, how can one go wrong with a 65 base Power Dark move (already stronger than Bite / Punishment) that not only gets boosted against item-wielding opponents, but also either removes Berry Juices before consumption, as well as Eviolites so that the subsequent Knock Off would be just as strong? Just use Ice Punch and / or Ice Shard alongside Knock Off.

Even if I'm theorymonning as much as everyone else, I think Sneasel does deserve a good deal of its hype. Sure Fighting priority users keep it in check, but a little birdie told me priority Flying moves are going to be big and Sneasel having STAB Ice Shard to counteract that is quite a boon.

 

[Chieliee]

enter Yanma

Yanma @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 236 SAtk / 76 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain

yanma wrecks.

Life orb+modest makes it hit like a fucking truck, and it has pretty amazing coverage too. Air Slash and Bug Buzz are the main STABs, while Giga Drain is there for picking off weaker foes and regain health (it's also cool against things like weakened chinchou who think they can beat you. (236+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (bug buzz+giga drain always 2hko's) Hidden Power Ground hits Honedge, Magnemite and the bulky fire-types for some big damage.

vs honedge: 236+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Ground vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD (custom): 23-29 (104.54 - 131.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs growlithe: 236+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Growlithe: 13-16 (59.09 - 72.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

magnemite gets rekd.

236+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 164 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (39.13 - 52.17%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
ferroseed likes to switch in on knock off so not a problem.(and if it doesn't carry twave it can't do shit back i think? gyro ball is pretty shitty in lc so...)

Most Berry Juice users can't take a hit at all, while Eviolite users are nearly always 2hko'd. I'm personally using 2 Knock Offers (vullaby and sneasel), all to aid a Yanma sweep. Without Eviolite, 90% of the metagame simply can't stand up to yanma's might

fuck sneasel ice shard

 

[Swan Songs]

I've always seen Yanma to be useless on my opponents team, simply because of Sneasel, as well as other priority. It's defences are pretty bad (base 45) so any priority that hits it naturally, like Meditite's bullet punch, will strip a nice junk of health away.
Not to mention that Sneasel is on 90% of teams and rapes it, as well as Snover is quite popular which tends to carry ice shard.

 

[Chieliee]

Can Meditite switch in on Yanma? No.
Can Sneasel switch in on Yanma? No.

snover isn't very common at all, i have faced it only once in 40 games i think.

So basicly, you're saying you don't mind Yanma because you 'only have to sac something to get Sneasel/Meditite in safely' ? how does that make it worse than Mixkrow, arguably the best offensive mon in Gen 5 LC, for whom you could say the same thing

also i guess you could run yache/eviolite for sneasel. that'd make yanma a good sneasel lure as well

ice shard vs eviolite yanma: 236 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Eviolite (custom): 10-16 (40 - 64%) -- 12.11% chance to 2HKO

vs yache: 236 Atk Life Orb (custom) Ice Shard vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry (custom): 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

also what i missed in my last post: yanma gets access to a shitton of amazing moves, roost, u-turn, hypnosis. If you want it to perform a niche role, you could run psychic, shadow ball, or even solarbeam if you're running a sun team. Substitute is another option as you can use it when your opponent sacrifices something. Get up a sub, then kill. Now ice shard will only break the sub.