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Froslass - Ice Queen
- Thread starter Heysup
- Start date
I get the feeling that Froslass is one of those Pokemon you have to have used yourself to have a true understanding of its capabilities. Like Lemmi said, there's a lot of poor 'lass usage going around and that can taint people's views. I'm just going to quote it here because no doubt a lot of people skipped his big ol' post.
Froslass is very different to Gallade and Raikou here. If they become BL it'll be because of how they can just steamroll teams with little to no effort or thought. If Froslass goes to BL it'll be because of how dangerous she can become when used with effort and thought.
The jury's still out for me!
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Froslass is very different to Gallade and Raikou here. If they become BL it'll be because of how they can just steamroll teams with little to no effort or thought. If Froslass goes to BL it'll be because of how dangerous she can become when used with effort and thought.
The jury's still out for me!
Not to contradict, but Gallade and Raikou can both run good alternate sets (TrickBand/Scarf sets for the former, LO/Specs sets for the latter), but I see your point - generally Froslass is relegated solely to one role, which still isn't likely the best, while out of all their explored options, they have one which clearly hurts - a lot, if used properly.
I think the main thing being overlooked is the fact that Froslass is dealing with the support characteristic as opposed to offensive. Froslass' and her arguably free spikes (when being used by the right user and with the right set) make other Pokemon sweep with no effort. Froslass doesn't need to "do everything" to be considered BL, it especially doesn't need to "do everything" without team support. 2 "free" layers of Spikes makes Pokemon like Honchkrow basically have zero switch-ins, while making it stupidly hard to fend off Pokemon like Raikou and Swellow who are fast and powerful.
I'm at least 90% sure the definition refers to the Pokemon sweeping at all times.
How the hell do Spikes prevent Honchkrow from coming in? The only time that would ever happen is on a Gravity Team.
And I don't see Stealth Rock significantly hampering Honchkrow's ability to come in and hole-punch, so even if Spikes hit it, it wouldn't slow it down that much unless both entry hazards were up.
And I don't see Stealth Rock significantly hampering Honchkrow's ability to come in and hole-punch, so even if Spikes hit it, it wouldn't slow it down that much unless both entry hazards were up.
I think he meant that Spikes hinders the Pokemon that could normally switch in on Honchkrow to the point that they can no longer do so, it was just very badly worded. Not that I agree much with said statement.
I think Heysup means, no Pokémon can switch in and effectively wall Honchkrow while you've got 2 free layers of Spikes on the opponent's side.
In my own experience I haven't battled a lot of Froslass, but the ones I have battled haven't been used properly at all, people just sit there like it's Forretress or something and just try for as many Spikes as possible before they die. Even if Froslass can't spin block as well as some, it's not going to be doing anything when it's dead.
I'll admit that despite not battling many, Froslass has always been the lead I've been most worried about, so I haven't strayed far from running Ambipom as a lead on my offensive teams. Been using Fake Out/Return/Taunt/Low Kick, even if I can't hit Froslass, I can Taunt it and then even if it does switch back in later, hopefully I'll have someone who can counter it. My team also isn't too worried about Spikes.
I'd answer the questions from the OP but I don't have a lot of experience with Froslass, maybe another time ;)
Edit: Beaten, damn you Lemmiwinks.
Spikes is definitely one of Froslass's main go-to moves. However, there are other moves that seem to be neglected. If you are running Froslass in a Hail team, choose Weatherball. It is slightly more powerful and even if Sandstorm is active, it is possible to still use it, though the occasion might be rare considering the types that resist Sandstorm don't take SE damage from rock. Destiny Bond is a must. You can use destiny bond to keep your opponent confused. For example, if you survive a hit with focus sash and use destiny bond, your opponent will be wary as to attack again. Other support moves include Disable, Endure, Trick, Block, Embargo, Icy Wind, Light Screen, and Sing. While these moves may have limited to no use, it is important to think to see if they are viable on your team. Also, Froslass has equal Attack and Sp.Att so you are not limited to ice-beam and friends, but they are generally the best for Froslass.
Weather Ball is useless compared to her other options. If you're running Froslass on a Hail team, Blizzard is a superior option as it has higher base power with the same 100% accuracy. Weather Ball is useless against Sandstorm teams since Ice Beam does more damage to all three benefiting types (SE on Ground, STAB IB does more to neutral Rock, and STAB also means even resisted Steel hits inflict more damage). It's only has any sort of use against Rain and Sun teams, but since Rain team members resist Water attacks, you're still not really going to get any use out of it, and Ice Beam does almost as much damage as Fire WB to Sun team members during Sun, while Ice Beam is still useful out of it (which is probably the only time Froslass should be fighting them, really).
It's far from ideal, but, like I said, it's what I came up with without changing my team after Froslass' appearance. I can't say I recall the way the battles went entirely, but I've used said Hitmontop against many Smogoners that most would agree are "good players" and came out on top. I don't think those battles went exactly as I described, but if you're a good player too, then it's pretty workable, even against other good players. Speaking of Cloyster, couldn't you net a OHKO with Rock Blast, bypassing the Focus Sash, or does it not work that way? (/has it already been mentioned?)
according to how we vote pokemon BL hail support is not allowed to push her over the edge. If it did we would have to remove the pokemon causing her to be broken in the weather condition... i.e. snover.
Im on the fence about whether or not shes too good out of hail. Shes good, but people prepare for her to the point that she cant seem to get much done as a spiker lead unless its prolass. Prolass is good, but again... has flaws that are easily exploited because people prepare heavily for her. I honestly think snover and her together are the problem. As long as both aren't in the same tier then they are fine... However, its the "which pokemon do we kick out if neither are broken alone" question that needs to be answered. Froslass is going to affect the meta more (not saying negatively or positively), and will be more useful on more teams... Snover is clearly only as good as he is because of his ability and the pokemon that can exploit it and wont really affect the meta this way again if such a good hail pokemon as froslass was to get the boot. Idk honestly how you would decide who needs to go to make uu "most stable" when one is clearly of more use to the tier than the other but at the same time relies on less useful pokemon to be broken.
I was more focusing on the fact that Froslass "takes advantage of hail" as a factor to push it over the edge for the nay-sayers. Froslass' ability would be the technical reason for pushing it over the edge. Like for example:
Froslass is BL because it lays down free Spikes, it can block them while setting up, it beats most of the common Rapid Spinners, it can Taunt other Pokemon's set up moves, AND it gets 20% evasion in Hail.
The fact that hail isn't broken without Froslass is all the evidence we need to not ban Snover and focus on Froslass as well.
Froslass is BL because it lays down free Spikes, it can block them while setting up, it beats most of the common Rapid Spinners, it can Taunt other Pokemon's set up moves, AND it gets 20% evasion in Hail.
The fact that hail isn't broken without Froslass is all the evidence we need to not ban Snover and focus on Froslass as well.
but if froslass isn't bl without hail and the only reason people want it bl is because of its usefulness in hail, then hail and by extension snover is the problem.
Now imagine a hypothetical scenario in which Froslass has been UU all along, and Snover has recently been re-introduced after a spell in BL. All of a sudden Hail is suspected as being a broken strategy, after being a near-useless one before. Now who is truly to blame here? If we restructure your 'argument' to fit this scenario:
The fact that hail isn't broken without Snover is all the evidence we need to not ban Froslass and focus on Snover as well.
Would you go along with that? I don't think you would, as it is just needlessly accusing the most recent addition in an arbitrary fashion. This isn't a rational argument, you're just picking on the newcomer for convenience.
I don't get this. If all those other Pokemon were UU before, and then Snover was added and all of sudden the team is broken without any other changes having been made, it SHOULD be the one to be banned due to the Support Characteristic, shouldn't it? Snover's perma-Hail (assuming that is the support that is making the others broken) is the only/main reason they are performing as well as they are now, due to the others not being broken while Snover was gone. It doesn't matter if it doesn't actually do much on its own; if the others are only broken with it around, then it seems to me like Snover is actually the culprit and thus should be banned.
Now, for our actual situation, we have Froslass being added instead. We've had a long time to use Hail without Froslass, but none of the individual members have shown up to be broken (Walrein, a potential suspect back then, even went so far as to drop to NU), nor has the team shown up to be either. Now, Froslass has been added in again, and after a couple of weeks playing around with her and the other additions, all of a sudden Hail shoots back into the limelight. If the team is only broken with Froslass around, it seems to me like Froslass is the culprit and thus should be banned.
Its snover & froslass together that is the problem. So its a situation of killing a team type by removing snover or removing a useful stand alone pokemon by taking out froslass.
It is meant to show how such reasoning can lead to one Pokemon being labelled BL over another as a result of the order in which they appear in the metagame, not just based on the state of the current metagame.
If Froslass suddenly enters the UU metagame, as it has, then the metagame would have exactly the same final state if it turned out that Snover was the one being introduced, with Froslass already there. Any other effects are psychological, not actual. If no Pokemon are broken in either case prior to the inclusions, then does it make sense that the recent inclusion is always the one branded BL? I don’t see why, as the metagame is exactly the same in either case, and herein lies the problem with such reasoning.
You can look at it as analogous to the mathematical concept known as commutativity. The question is this: should exactly the same conclusion always be drawn given a certain subset of variables that constitute the metagame (commutative), or should the order in which said variables happen to have assembled have a bearing on the conclusion reached (non-commutative)? To say that Hail isn’t broken without Froslass has nothing to do with the current issue, and cannot be used to justify the banishment of Froslass in particular, because the same statement would also be true in the opposite scenario with Snover.
So you're using a hypothetical unrelated, argument and then saying my argument isn't rational?
But I'll humor you.
For your hypothetical situation, assuming Snover is exactly as good as it is now (no better, no worse), and was banned "by mistake". How does that change anything?
Firstly, if hail becomes broken, it's still because Froslass is there. Secondly, there would be no hail metagame if there was no Snover, meaning you have nothing to compare it to. In our case, we DO have something to compare it to. When Froslass was added, it made hail (which was previously not broken). My argument isn't that "Froslass is the newer addition, so it's broken", I was saying that Froslass caused hail to be broken because it wasn't before. With Snover gone, permahail can't be used, so it doesn't even apply.
Also, the argument is that Froslass breaks / is broken in hail, not that hail breaks Froslass.
There is nothing wrong with the hypothetical scenario I brought up, as it puts the issue into context nicely. The main point you need to focus on is this: why is the 'fact' that 'Froslass breaks Hail' more significant than the 'fact' that 'Snover breaks Froslass, and therefore Hail in general'?
If you stay focused on this particular point then I have no problems. Or you could argue that Froslass is just broken outside Hail anyway (and you may still have a valid argument here), in which case this issue would be irrelevant as it would be clear who to ban then.
If you stay focused on this particular point then I have no problems. Or you could argue that Froslass is just broken outside Hail anyway (and you may still have a valid argument here), in which case this issue would be irrelevant as it would be clear who to ban then.
To answer your question, Froslass "breaking" hail is more significant because, well, it's true. Hail as a team / strategy is far from broken, but the fact that Froslass is more broken with hail support means that Froslass should in fact be banned because it's the thing that's broken, not hail.
Your hypothetical situation makes no sense. You can't have a hail team without Snover. Also, if Snover was banned correctly in your example, then it was obviously broken, and Froslass doesn't matter. There are too many empty spaces in your hypothetical situation to even form an opinion from it.
Therefore, Froslass in hail without Snover can't be tested. Froslass is the problem, I'm sure you all agree Snover isn't exactly "the problem" when it comes to hail being so good.
Why not ban the move "Hail" as well? I mean, if it's in fact the whether that's broken, and not Froslass, then why shouldn't it be banned. It causes Froslass to be broken for 4-5 turns, while Snover does a similar thing. Froslass is broken in hail regardless of who sets it up after all.
I'm sure we can all agree that's pretty ridiculous. So think about it; the fact that Froslass is broken in hail, not just perma-hail, would mean that the problem persists even if Snover is gone regardless of how nonviable the move "Hail" is. It's not the weather that's broken, it's the Pokemon who's broken in the weather.
Obviously I still think Froslass is broken outside of hail too, but the fact that it is broken inside of hail seems to be overshadowing that atm.
Your hypothetical situation makes no sense. You can't have a hail team without Snover. Also, if Snover was banned correctly in your example, then it was obviously broken, and Froslass doesn't matter. There are too many empty spaces in your hypothetical situation to even form an opinion from it.
Therefore, Froslass in hail without Snover can't be tested. Froslass is the problem, I'm sure you all agree Snover isn't exactly "the problem" when it comes to hail being so good.
Why not ban the move "Hail" as well? I mean, if it's in fact the whether that's broken, and not Froslass, then why shouldn't it be banned. It causes Froslass to be broken for 4-5 turns, while Snover does a similar thing. Froslass is broken in hail regardless of who sets it up after all.
I'm sure we can all agree that's pretty ridiculous. So think about it; the fact that Froslass is broken in hail, not just perma-hail, would mean that the problem persists even if Snover is gone regardless of how nonviable the move "Hail" is. It's not the weather that's broken, it's the Pokemon who's broken in the weather.
Obviously I still think Froslass is broken outside of hail too, but the fact that it is broken inside of hail seems to be overshadowing that atm.
Actually you can, but it wouldn't be a very good one. However, that's really besides the point. As long as the introduction of either Pokemon causes "something" to be broken when there was nothing broken before (because we have to assume that Froslass is not broken without permanent Hail for the purposes of this discussion, whether true or not), then the comparison still holds. The degree of viability of a Hail team in either initial case is irrelevant, only the fact that the new addition allowed for a broken strategy in a previously unbroken metagame.
But in fact you mentioned the move Hail also:
So if we tested Froslass in isolation from Snover (i.e. test the current metagame with Snover removed), we could see if this really is the case. After all, in order for a strategy to be broken, it has to be 'abusable'. So in fact you are wrong here, Hail does indeed have to be a viable move in order to declare Froslass broken under it. It makes no sense to ban a Pokemon for a strategy that can't be used successfully.
Erm, Froslass is tested in isolation from Snover on every non-hail team. When she came back down, it took quite a while for hail teams to "make a comeback" so to speak. Froslass was tested more than enough in that time.