Froslass - Ice Queen

[d2m]

Firstly, Froslass beats Ambipom if it's bulky, and Froslass always beats Uxie. Next.

Arguments that resemble this below do not hold much ground:

"Pokemon X is not broken because Pokemon Y can possibly run this never used / terrible set of A or B and Pokemon Z can also run this bad set C and if M, N, and L happen before Pokemon X switches in it can lose"

This also applies to Pokemon you would not even dream of unbanning in Ubers, such as Kyogre.

"Kyogre is not broken because you can run Parasect in Ubers and if you don't switch into entry hazards and Kyogre doesn't have Ice Beam Parasect can win."

Your examples with Donphan and Claydol are horribly false as well. Claydol's Shadow Ball doesn't 2HKO, it barely 3HKOes iirc while Froslass can just sit there Spiking and Pain Splitting then KOing with Ice Beam. Donphan is OHKOed by Ice Beam as well.

Blastoise can 3HKO Froslass, but when the only common spinner that can be Froslass is left with 40% after KOing Froslass (Pain Split), you know you have a problem. After this Froslass can simply send in Moltres or Swellow to threaten or KO Blastoise. Once it switches in again it will have 15%. Good Luck.

Additionally, you are saying things like "Froslass takes time to set up Spikes" as an argument which I cannot comprehend. Froslass being able to take time to set up Spikes is absolutely not an argument against Froslass being BL.

Moltres and Swellow are weak to Stealth Rock, yes, but why can't you run it with your so-called awesome Rapid Spinners? I mean, if the opponent isn't using Froslass Rapid Spinning will usually not be a problem for Pokemon such as Donphan. Also, "weak to SR" is not a valid argument against something being broken (see Yanmega and Honchkrow).

See, here's your problem, and it's a fallacy that you've been repeatedly using over and over in your ridiculous crusade (yes, it's qualified as a crusade at this point) against Froslass: that you always want to switch a spinner into it.

Switching a spinner directly INTO Froslass is rarely a good idea, as you've pointed out in every post you make, but you neglect to mention that there are many offensive threats that Froslass cannot touch, especially the bulky set, that simply set up on Froslass or kill it and leave you minus one spiker/spin blocker.

For example: Sunnybeam Moltres (a common enough set) comes in on Froslass's Spikes. Roosts off SR damage on the switch to...let's say Milotic as a common enough example, uses Sunny Day to take (36.14% - 43.61%) from the min SpA surf, then does (69.54% - 82.23%) back, an assured 2HKO with time to Roost off the LO damage and keep rampaging through your team.

NP Porygon-Z works the same way, as does CM Cress, SD Scyther (if you run Shadow Ball over Ice Beam), NP/CM Missy (especially if you run Ice Beam), NP Toxicroak, etc, etc.

This is why pure offense has little to no trouble with Froslass, she only causes problems for Stall and Semistall because they rely on switching and countering much more than pure offense. So if Froslass is only trouble for a specific subset of teams (who often run her anyway, thus largely negating the impact) then I don't see how it can be BL.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

This is why pure offense has little to no trouble with Froslass, she only causes problems for Stall and Semistall because they rely on switching and countering much more than pure offense. So if Froslass is only trouble for a specific subset of teams (who often run her anyway, thus largely negating the impact) then I don't see how it can be BL.

Why not? Gallade only causes serious problems for stall and semi-stall. Yanmega only causes serious problems for offense or balanced. Just because certain playstyles can deal with a Pokemon easily, that in itself does not exclude the Pokemon from being potentially BL. Particularly when we are talking about concepts as significant as 'stall' and 'offense'. These are significant portions of the metagame whichever way you look at it. If players of such broad and widely encompassing playstyles consistently struggle with the impact a certain Pokemon has on their teams, I would say that is fitting of at least one of the BL characteristics.

 

[d2m]

Why not? Gallade only causes serious problems for stall and semi-stall. Yanmega only causes serious problems for offense or balanced. Just because certain playstyles can deal with a Pokemon easily, that in itself does not exclude the Pokemon from being potentially BL. Particularly when we are talking about concepts as significant as 'stall' and 'offense'. These are significant portions of the metagame whichever way you look at it. If players of such broad and widely encompassing playstyles consistently struggle with the impact a certain Pokemon has on their teams, I would say that is fitting of at least one of the BL characteristics.

Considering nearly every stall/semistall team utilizes Froslass I would say it comes down to the skill of the player using her rather than any sort of imbalance. I'd draw the comparison to Roserade being the former "best spiker" and people who used spikestacking teams used Roserade. Same thing here only with lass. We didn't vote Roserade BL, and I don't see why lass would be BL either.

Regirock is a great example of a stall staple that can come in, threaten with Stone Edge, set up Rocks, or threaten the para on the switch, especially in sand. Not only that, but stall can take advantage of Froslass as well, setting up a wall like Curse Registeel, either she Taunts and takes a huge hit (or more if she's greedy) from STAB SE Iron Head, or switches, allowing him to build up curses. Same with Umbreon.

 

[Acritter]

Considering nearly every stall/semistall team utilizes Froslass I would say it comes down to the skill of the player using her rather than any sort of imbalance.

Um, that's a horrible argument. "Everyone uses her, so there's no imbalance." You were talking about fallacies?

 

[d2m]

Um, that's a horrible argument. "Everyone uses her, so there's no imbalance." You were talking about fallacies?

What I'm pointing out is that the type of team she's trouble for is also the type where she is most used. Semistall/Stall use her as a spiker/secondary spin blocker, she's rarely seen on all-out offensive teams. Therefore, it mostly comes down to skill when stall/semistall are playing each other. If one does use Froslass and the other doesn't and the latter player doesn't have accurate countermeasures, that's their fault.

 

[Banedon]

One of the problems with these discussions is that some people say one thing and others say another. Froslass ostensibly cannot beat Ambipom (because it gets Taunted out of Spikes) and Uxie (because it risks getting Tricked a Choice Scarf). If you disagree, take it up with jamashawalker.

If you truthfully believe that "Pokemon X is not broken because Pokemon Y can possibly run this never used / terrible set of A or B and Pokemon Z can also run this bad set C and if M, N, and L happen before Pokemon X switches in it can lose" is not an argument, then tell me also that you were wrong when you said Alakazam can run Taunt + Encore and therefore not lose to Cresselia. Like I said, I've not seen Alakazam run both Taunt and Encore. One or the other yes, but not both (Alakazam needs coverage / protection from Substitute / Calm Mind). Alternatively, you can tell ToF he's bad for suggesting people run bulky Mismagius with Taunt to beat Cresselia.

Why are you leaving Donphan and Claydol in against Froslass? That's as stupid as leaving Froslass in against Sharpedo. Hit Froslass once as it switches in and get out of there.

Moltres and Swellow are weak to Stealth Rock, yes, but why can't you run it with your so-called awesome Rapid Spinners? I mean, if the opponent isn't using Froslass Rapid Spinning will usually not be a problem for Pokemon such as Donphan.

I'll use the same weapon back on the user. If spin-blocking is so easy, then why can't I run the same so-called awesome spin blockers and seriously limit Moltres / Swellow's switch ins?

I'll tell you that I think spinning is possible if you put an effort into doing it (so is spin blocking). But you have to put an effort into doing it. Trying to KO Froslass with Claydol's Shadow Ball isn't putting effort into it.

PS: SR is a lot easier to set up than Spikes (takes one turn).
PPS: Weak to SR is a valid argument against something being broken. It does not decide the argument entirely, but it is certainly a valid factor.
PPPS: d2m brings up a good point that there are offensive threats that can set up on Froslass, especially the bulky version. I said the same thing too actually. Any comment?
PPPPS: I did miss that Donphan gets Odor Sleuth, but Donphan does have lots of important attacks to run already (EQ, Rapid Spin, Assurance / Stone Edge, Ice Shard, Stealth Rock ...).

 

[breh]

One of the problems with these discussions is that some people say one thing and others say another. Froslass ostensibly cannot beat Ambipom (because it gets Taunted out of Spikes) and Uxie (because it risks getting Tricked a Choice Scarf). If you disagree, take it up with jamashawalker.

I thought frosslass enjoys CS? Doesn't it just get free spikes up? That's a gauranteed free 2 layers, 3 if you don't switch your uxie out.

Personally, I don't find it to be too broken; after it's dead it's easy to switch in a spinner (particularly claydol, who levitates) to get rid of spikes.

 

[flashbolt]

Froslass isnt getting banned, its not even getting nominated!

You can't just nominate the same Pokemon over and over again until they finally get voted bl, it's going to be harder after the first vote (and almost impossible after two unless there are extreme special circumstances)

And that may mean it is going to get harder for froslass to be banned.

So what went wrong? complacency? is it that people dont actually feel as strongly as the discussion seems to indicate? is it that when it comes down to actually writing the paragraph, it isnt as easy to justify that froslass is broken?

There was almost as much written about Aggron, with arguably more explanation, than there was written about Froslass. And let's be honest, Aggron would have to show us a lot more to be a Suspect.

It seems to be a numbers and a quality issue.

Discuss.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I personally can't wait to see what Heysup has to say when he returns to the forum in a fit of rage(!)........

Seriously though, people should have learnt their lesson from two months ago, and I myself have tried to remind them on at least two occasions since then. They all said they did but evidently not on the basis of this. Everyone thought that Froslass' suspect vote was a given if just 1 or 2 people simply mentioned her name, which is incredibly naive, and it was clear to me that with only three people writing little more than a paragraph each, the end result was far from obvious.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Froslass isnt getting banned, its not even getting nominated!

And that may mean it is going to get harder for froslass to be banned.

So what went wrong? complacency? is it that people dont actually feel as strongly as the discussion seems to indicate? is it that when it comes down to actually writing the paragraph, it isnt as easy to justify that froslass is broken?


It seems to be a numbers and a quality issue.

Discuss.

The problem is from my perspective is that there simply isn't enough people with enough time to complete the entire suspect process. I'm quite sure there are qualified voters out there who feel she is broken.

I haven't even had time to play pokemon since a little before Cressalia entered UU. Before that I didn't really have time to write my paragraphs then.

However it's pretty clear that the ease of spike set up and blocking that frosslass has and their ability to eliminate counters to high powered hitters like moltres and aggron makes her broken.

 

[flashbolt]

The problem is from my perspective is that there simply isn't enough people with enough time to complete the entire suspect process. I'm quite sure there are qualified voters out there who feel she is broken.

The nominations were up for a good number of days, im sure someone who felt passionatly could find an hour somewhere.
But the crazy thing is that alot of people who did write nominations and who want froslass banned didnt include them in their posts. Some have already confessed to being complacent and i think others besides are in a similar sitaution.

I personally can't wait to see what Heysup has to say when he returns to the forum in a fit of rage(!)........

Ditto, should be good.

Seriously though, people should have learnt their lesson from two months ago, and I myself have tried to remind them on at least two occasions since then.

Alot of people dont have your (or our, if i may be so bold) foresight. I think alot of people joined a bandwagon against froslass which had two consequences; joining it because others did meant that they didnt actually care about the issue enough to raise it and it created an illusion that froslass would be banned due to the populist movement alone.
By thats just my thoughts.

I am from the UK too, in fact quite a few people here are. It's not that uncommon.

Awesome, its like finding a brother you never knew you had =). (i cant believe i just used a smiley).

 

[d2m]

I personally can't wait to see what Heysup has to say when he returns to the forum in a fit of rage(!)........

This. Useless bureaucracy strikes again!

Then again, I'm one of the few that doesn't have a problem with her, and I think a combination of the complacency of a cabal of players plus the silent majority (many of which don't frequent the forum) that don't think she's broken lead to this. She's been voted UU once and not even a suspect this time, there are a good deal that don't think her broken.

 

[PK Gaming]

Heysup is going to explode. That dude reaaaaaaaaaaally hates Froslass.

Another metagame with Frolass. What it, the 3rd time now?

 

[FlareBlitz]

If they wanted paragraphs, they should have just looked at page 3-4 of this thread. Or hell, just take the paragraphs people posted last time, it's not like the metagame has changed any as far as leads and spikers go. Honestly, this is just a case of people being needlessly pedantic. There's plenty of solid, thorough posts on why Froslass is broken all over these forums, and yet because no one bothered to copy/paste any of them into the nominations thread, it's not a suspect.

Whatever. I'll just play around multiple spike layers like I always have.

 

[flashbolt]

I'm one of the few that doesn't have a problem with her

I think you were nearer with the "silent majority".

Useless bureaucracy strikes again!

Interesting from someone who doesnt like froslass; i too lament the flaws system but in this situation the blame is not with the system. You can have a perfect system but if people aren't going to use it properly its not going to work perfectly.

Heysup is going to explode. That dude reaaaaaaaaaaally hates Froslass.

Another metagame with Frolass. What it, the 3rd time now?

Well it seems like this thread gets another lease of life.

 

[d2m]

Interesting from someone who doesnt like froslass; i too lament the flaws system but in this situation the blame is not with the system. You can have a perfect system but if people aren't going to use it properly its not going to work perfectly.

Pretty much every aspect of this site's rules is bogged down in red tape and ignorant of common sense, it's like the government. I enjoy poking at it more than poking holes in Froslass arguments.

The fact that there's an entire thread plus a huge volume of posts about it and potential BL status in the metathread and it's obvious it should be considered one way or the other regardless of how lazy people are and how tedious and unnecessary the regurgitation of arguments already present in the other threads is.

 

[SilentVerse]

I really shouldn't be getting myself into this but...

Pretty much every aspect of this site's rules is bogged down in red tape and ignorant of common sense, it's like the government. I enjoy poking at it more than poking holes in Froslass arguments.

The fact that there's an entire thread plus a huge volume of posts about it and potential BL status in the metathread and it's obvious it should be considered one way or the other regardless of how lazy people are and how tedious and unnecessary the regurgitation of arguments already present in the other threads is.

But if people are too lazy to even nominate it, you COULD conclude that people simply didn't care enough or don't think it's BL enough. Yeah, a lot of people talked about it in the metathread, but if they don't care enough to nominate it, or are just too lazy, then it's not the system's fault - it's the people's. It's like a form of democracy; if you're too lazy to vote for the person you want in, then don't go crying that they didn't get in(though I suppose you have to consider other people and stuff, but the point is, YOU have to vote if you want it in, as there will be a higher chance of them actually getting in).


Also, just to say what I think, I don't particularly care where Froslass ends up, as I've never found it too hard to stop it from getting spikes up, though I haven't had enough experience using it anyways, so I can't really say much.

 

[Smurf.]

Pretty much every aspect of this site's rules is bogged down in red tape and ignorant of common sense, it's like the government. I enjoy poking at it more than poking holes in Froslass arguments.

The fact that there's an entire thread plus a huge volume of posts about it and potential BL status in the metathread and it's obvious it should be considered one way or the other regardless of how lazy people are and how tedious and unnecessary the regurgitation of arguments already present in the other threads is.

QFFT. The second F is pretty obviuous.

Here is an open invitation to any tour players:
Run the most annoying hail stall team possible featuring froslass.

 

[Golden Sun]

Here's a set i've been running and it's had really good success

Froslass (F) @ Brightpowder
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Mud-Slap
- Pain Split
- Substitute
- Spikes

It is nearly gauranteed 3 layers of spikes (obviously meant to be used in hail)

 

[Synre]

QFFT. The second F is pretty obviuous.

Here is an open invitation to any tour players:
Run the most annoying hail stall team possible featuring froslass.

I enjoy your unproductive post and your random use of bold, but I can't help but notice you didn't nominate Froslass?

I actually agree with you guys that she should have been a suspect anyway, but it's hard to justify complaining on the forums when you didn't actually do anything about it yourself.

Feel free and run that hail team though, I love free points.


Regardless, we should probably get back to discussing Froslass. Groundhog must have gone back into its hole because we have another 6 weeks of winter, best get back to thinking up counters.

 

[d2m]

Here's a set i've been running and it's had really good success

Froslass (F) @ Brightpowder
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Mud-Slap
- Pain Split
- Substitute
- Spikes

It is nearly gauranteed 3 layers of spikes (obviously meant to be used in hail)

1) You make me want to run Lock-On Porygon Z.
2) @Above: I don't think Froslass is BL, hence why I didn't nominate it.

 

[capefeather]

The reactions to Froslass not getting nominated are ironic because the whole point of nominating and voting for Pokémon is to inject the common sense of the experienced masses into the system. People in this thread and the Froslass thread have gone on and on about how broken it is, but then when it actually matters it seems that people don't actually feel that strongly about her.

 

[Heysup]

The reactions to Froslass not getting nominated are ironic because the whole point of nominating and voting for Pokémon is to inject the common sense of the experienced masses into the system. People in this thread and the Froslass thread have gone on and on about how broken it is, but then when it actually matters it seems that people don't actually feel that strongly about her.

If by that last statement you mean people are lazy fucks then yes.

Seriously how hard is it to c+p a post from this thread and post it as your nom?

Disappointed with the UU people, as usual. I'm getting used to it though.

 

[Ekanselttar]

If by that last statement you mean people are lazy fucks then yes.

Seriously how hard is it to c+p a post from this thread and post it as your nom?

Disappointed with the UU people, as usual. I'm getting used to it though.

Deja Vu. I've said this already (my paragraphs are posted in the thread....) but here is a quick summary

Also, joining in as a member of the silent majority/minority/whatever. Lead Frossy is easily stopped by any sort of antilead, and midgame Frossy comes in a bit late and is basically countered by anything that can attack.

 

[Erazor]

Man, I actually sent Froslass paragraphs to Jabba before I realized it wasn't a suspect.

[/stupidity]