Resource Game Issues and Feedback Thread

Dogfish44

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Protean/Libero Subs: What's the modern BBP's interpretation of these?

"If X resists Ground-Type moves by typing THEN..."
"If X is weak to Ground-Type moves by typing THEN..."
"If X is Fire- OR Electric- typed THEN..."

Am I right in saying that all of these break down to a giant string of "AND NOT X Typed AND NOT Y Typed" in a large Chance Clause Substitute that takes one sub for each of these?
 
Can Endeavor and Super Fang be fixed to say that they're fixed damage moves? They should be, but there's nothing that says it's fixed damage in the audit.
 
Can we change Hyper Beam's combo classes from "Light / Beam" to "All / Beam, Pelleting?" It is unprecedented to give a move such a broad main classification, but Hyper Beam's current incarnation prohibits us from using such staple combinations as BoltBeamThrower + Hyper Beam, Hidden Power + Hyper Beam, and Shadow Ball + Hyper Beam. This is a move that is supposed to be analogous to Giga Impact, but its restrictive classification makes it much less useful as combo tech than its physical counterpart, which has always been Hyper Beam's main niche.
 

nightblitz42

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Sivanandi I'll fix that within the next 24hrs.

P2X7 Personally, I'm kinda vexed by how Hyper Beam has been treated similarly to Giga Impact. In terms of flavor, I'd argue that Hyper Beam has much more individual identity than Giga Impact does. We know of Hyper Beam that it's a beam made of bright energy, but all we really know of Giga Impact is that it's a physical contact attack. So treating the two as functionally the same in terms of combo compatibility feels wrong to me. If I had to equalize them, I'd actually rather make Giga Impact more restricted, maybe by adding a unique combo subclass for full-body attacks and adjusting the flavor of Giga Impact to be some kind of running tackle.

TLDR: Would toning down the combo compatibility of Giga Impact be satisfactory, or does Hyper Beam specifically need to be buffed?
 

Dogfish44

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I need a ruling, kindly.

Reference Point

Key action is A3, where Pangoro (at that point outspeeding) would be using Me First.

"The Pokémon senses the opponents attack and mimics what the opponent opponent would have used at an amplified power. Me First only succeeds against damaging attacks, it cannot mimic non-damaging attacks. The Power and Energy Cost of a selected attack are both amplified. The attack fails if the opponent attacks before the user of Me First. Me First also incurs any after effects the move would have, such as Sluggish from Hyper Beam, or Cooldown from a combo.

Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Speed by two (2) stages, adjusting the natural stage. Additionally, the copied move becomes its corresponding Z-Move."
Now, at the point of Me First, it should see the move Bewear 'would have used' is Low Kick, but the Bewear has a substitution:

***IF Pangoro has used Me First already that action when you are to act, use Substitute (20) the first instance, Bulk Up the second instance, pushing actions back each time.
Now because this is a chance substitution, it's only checking *after* the Me First has been used, which is where wonkiness begins - is it possible for Bewear's Low Kick to be changed, given that it's already been assumed by Me First? The wording's unclear - "would have used" implies it can change, but I'm getting a headache looking at this.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
In-game Teleport is now a switching move with -6 priority (see https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Teleport_(move)). Teleport (Switch) in the DA has priority 0 still, is this intentional?

EDIT: Also Metal Coat's description still gives extra bonuses to Onix/Steelix/Scyther/Scizor.
As fair as I can tell this was never addressed. Also, can we add Mail to the set of possible held items? It stopped existing in-game after gen 5, but its description at the time was:
Causes the secondary effect of Thief and Covet to fail when used on holder. Causes Trick and Switcheroo to fail when used by or on the holder. Causes Fling and Bestow to fail when used by holder.
Gen 5 was before the Knock Off BAP increase, but I imagine that would be negated as well. I think this would be good as a counter to Sticky Barb/Klutz Trick shenanigans, now that Z-Crystals can't be held by the vast majority of mons.
 

nightblitz42

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Dogfish44 clarifying Me First, and by association Sucker Punch:

Me First: The Pokémon senses the opponent's intended attack and mimics the same attack at an amplified power. This move fails if the target has already acted this Action. This move also fails if the target is not going to attempt a damaging move this Action (according to what is known when Me First is used). The Power and Energy Cost of the copied attack are both amplified. Me First also incurs any after-effects the move would have, such as Sluggish from Hyper Beam, or Cooldown from a combo. Changes to the opponent's orders after Me First is used have no effect on Me First.

Z-Move Effect: Raises the user's Speed by two (2) stages, adjusting the natural stage. Additionally, the copied move becomes its corresponding Z-Move.

Sucker Punch: The user feigns weakness, but then strikes with intense swiftness if the foe prepares to attack. This move fails if the target has already acted this Action. This move also fails if the target is not going to attempt a damaging move this Action (according to what is known when Sucker Punch is used). Changes to the opponent's orders after Sucker Punch is used have no effect on Sucker Punch.

---

The changes to Me First and Sucker Punch should make it clear that once Me First or Sucker Punch is used, the activation of the target's Chance Substitutions does not cause a time paradox. The moves operate based on what is "known" at their time of activation, regardless of the actual outcome of events. I am aware that this leads to possible sub abuse for the defender.

Mowtom In-game the change to Teleport was a buff, but implementing the change to BBP would be almost 100% a nerf, so I'm not really interested in implementing that unless you are. As far as I'm concerned, the power level of Teleport in BBP is okay where it is.

I'm also interested in adding a "Mail" item to the game, but I'd like to wait on any implementation until at least after Tourney is over. Partially for the sake of the tourney, partially to see how tourney matches play out without it, and partially to double-check that it doesn't create any strange interactions with Klutz or Magic Room.
 
I'd like to propose that we return Solid Rock, Filter and Anticipation to a 2BAP damage reduction on super effective attacks. (Up from 1 BAP currently)

I understand that there was a universal reduction in the effectiveness of abilities at the start of Gen 8 BBP however we nerfed these abilities to now just be worse than Sturdy and Magma Armor, who have a 1 BAP reduction on all moves.

While I like the addition of an effect to Magma Armor and Sturdy from their in game effects to boost their effectiveness, but both of these games have no effect on damage reduction in game and they now are better at damage reduction universally when compared to the Super Effective damage reduction abilities.

An alternative proposal I have is to have Solid Rock, Filter and Anticipation to affect all abilities like Sturdy and Magma Armor, but I believe in their current iteration they should receive a buff as their effect relative to the other abilities mentioned should be considered
 
I'd like to suggest that we change the ability Corrosion.

As it currently stands, Corrosion has the following description:

This Pokémon's poison is incredibly potent to the point that it is able to inflict Poison and Bad Poison on Poison- and Steel-types with its own attacks.

This is very rarely useful, as Salazzle doesn't have Acid OR Acid Spray, meaning that it can't deal damage to Steel types with its poison moves (which many other poison types can). Therefore, I propose that we change the ability to include this:

This Pokémon's poison is incredibly potent to the point that it is able to inflict Poison and Bad Poison on Poison- and Steel-types with its own attacks and ignores Steel-type opponents' immunity to poison moves.

This addition wouldn't change THAT much. It would only make Salazzle slightly more effective at dealing with certain steel types and increase its capability to use the poisoning aspect of its ability as well by using Venoshock. Salazzle already has fire type moves to deal with most Steel types, so this wouldn't make it unbalanced; it would simply give it a niche to be able to deal with Steel types more effectively, as would make sense with an ability called Corrosion.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
When a Pokemon switches out after toggling its toggle ability does the ability stay where it was set or revert to the default state? In old ASB the answer was default state but it isn't anywhere in the current handbook.

Also can we please get rid of Metal Coat's sig item boost?
 

JJayyFeather

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I'd like to suggest that we change the ability Corrosion.

As it currently stands, Corrosion has the following description:

This Pokémon's poison is incredibly potent to the point that it is able to inflict Poison and Bad Poison on Poison- and Steel-types with its own attacks.

This is very rarely useful, as Salazzle doesn't have Acid OR Acid Spray, meaning that it can't deal damage to Steel types with its poison moves (which many other poison types can). Therefore, I propose that we change the ability to include this:

This Pokémon's poison is incredibly potent to the point that it is able to inflict Poison and Bad Poison on Poison- and Steel-types with its own attacks and ignores Steel-type opponents' immunity to poison moves.

This addition wouldn't change THAT much. It would only make Salazzle slightly more effective at dealing with certain steel types and increase its capability to use the poisoning aspect of its ability as well by using Venoshock. Salazzle already has fire type moves to deal with most Steel types, so this wouldn't make it unbalanced; it would simply give it a niche to be able to deal with Steel types more effectively, as would make sense with an ability called Corrosion.
Short answer: No. Buffing abilities, especially in that fashion, only occurs if the ability has its normal functionality not work in our system. (think Frisk, Anticipation, Sturdy)

When a Pokemon switches out after toggling its toggle ability does the ability stay where it was set or revert to the default state? In old ASB the answer was default state but it isn't anywhere in the current handbook.

Also can we please get rid of Metal Coat's sig item boost?
Default.

Huh, thought we axed the held item sig bonuses. Thanks for pointing that one out, it's being axed currently.
 
Hi, covered this on discord earlier but let's get more coherent thoughts than my earlier rambling. I know several people on discord have agreed with this sentiment but I do want to put this out there in a more "formal" fashion so it doesn't get lost in the wash.

I believe Expert Belt is overtuned in its current iteration, particularly relative to other "basic" items (read: type items, LO and Muscle Band/Wise Glasses). For reference, EB is a +4 on all super effective moves, while type items are also a flat +4 and LO is a +4.5 (assuming SE) unless it's hitting a double weakness, in which case it's +6.75.
What this means is that, in the vast majority of cases, the incentive to use anything but EB is extremely small; in any serious Items: ON battle we're usually dealing with mons with 70-100 moves each and anywhere from four to like, 15 different coverage types, so it's safe to just slap on an Ebelt and assume you'll have something to hit most opponents super effectively. Even if you full commit to a type item and force a positive matchup where it'll be useful, the reward from using the type item over the more generic EB is... basically none, as both items are +4s. Of course there's like the extremely specific stuff that will usually prefer the type item, but these are almost limited to Normal-types or mons with crap coverage and ability-boosted STAB; see: Magnet Caribolt, Silk Scarf Porygon-Z, Charcoal Ninetales. Even then, in the appropriate matchup EB Ninetales is exactly as effective as Charcoal Ninetales, which is .-.
This is even worse when it comes to more niche consumable items, like Weakness Policy and Berserk Gene, as these basically function the same as EB but with the caveat that the user can't switch or it loses its boosts. So, even if you play it perfectly and get to trigger these, the biggest reward is the same +4 you would've gotten from EB in the first place, with the only upside of not getting wiped by item manipulation if you manage to trigger them beforehand.

So, my proposal would be to first tone down EBelt, possibly scaling it back down to the +2 BAP it used to have--this means a SE hit is a final +3 and a doubly SE hit is a final +4.5, which are still strong numbers.
Second, I don't think type items getting slightly buffed (from +4 to +5, for example) would be unreasonable, as they're usually a significant commitment as is and retain their weakness to item manipulation.
Finally, with consumable items that give stat boosts like WP and Berserk Gene, we could make it so the boosts don't completely fade after switching out, or maybe decay by one stage instead of disappearing entirely. I realize this last bit is extremely #buffculture but these consumables represent a big committment and having a payout that lasts more than the one round before you're forced out would be a fair reward in my mind given that you need to hit their triggers to get it, which would require skillful play.
 
P2X7 Personally, I'm kinda vexed by how Hyper Beam has been treated similarly to Giga Impact. In terms of flavor, I'd argue that Hyper Beam has much more individual identity than Giga Impact does. We know of Hyper Beam that it's a beam made of bright energy, but all we really know of Giga Impact is that it's a physical contact attack. So treating the two as functionally the same in terms of combo compatibility feels wrong to me. If I had to equalize them, I'd actually rather make Giga Impact more restricted, maybe by adding a unique combo subclass for full-body attacks and adjusting the flavor of Giga Impact to be some kind of running tackle.

TLDR: Would toning down the combo compatibility of Giga Impact be satisfactory, or does Hyper Beam specifically need to be buffed?
Sorry that it took me so long to reply here.

I do not want a Giga Impact nerf.

I think that a Hyper Beam buff would be good for the metagame. When Hyper Beam can be combined with a lot of moves, every Pokemon with a usable Special Attack stat and fair coverage / Hidden Power gains a threatening burst damage option in many more matchups. This especially helps Pokemon with shallow movepools, as they would appreciate a high-damage option against opponents whose typings counter their STAB attacks, and this buff would give such weak Pokemon a rare way to force these foes to burn a substitution, making it easier to slip out of a bad matchup.
 

JJayyFeather

Drifting~
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Sorry that it took me so long to reply here.

I do not want a Giga Impact nerf.

I think that a Hyper Beam buff would be good for the metagame. When Hyper Beam can be combined with a lot of moves, every Pokemon with a usable Special Attack stat and fair coverage / Hidden Power gains a threatening burst damage option in many more matchups. This especially helps Pokemon with shallow movepools, as they would appreciate a high-damage option against opponents whose typings counter their STAB attacks, and this buff would give such weak Pokemon a rare way to force these foes to burn a substitution, making it easier to slip out of a bad matchup.
An update to this discussion based on a chat from last night:

We're looking into the combo types again, since we noticed that special moves as a whole are just more restrictive in their combo potential compared to physical moves. As a result, somewhere out of this discussion we'll expand the reach of Hyper Beam.

nightblitz42 to expand on this if I missed anything.
 

nightblitz42

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Specifically, I'm going to be looking at making Special moves across different types a lot more compatible. Hopefully the new design philosophy will mirror current Physical moves, where the "element" of an attack matters much less than the method of attack. This will definitely involve expanding the scope of Hyper Beam.
 

nightblitz42

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Link: This is my draft of the new combo system. The gist of it is that most of the damaging non-contact moves got lumped together into two general Classes: "Luminous" (mostly energy-based) and "Material" (mostly non-energy-based). Somewhat unrelated, I also reworked the Subclasses "Deluge" and "Meteorological" into "Aetherial" (wide airborne wave-like attacks + attacks that come from above) and "Terrestrial" (wide attacks that travel along the ground + attacks that rise upwards). This is mostly because I feel the moves in the existing Meteorological class are a little bit too disparate.

The end result is definitely an increase in the number of possible cross-Type Special combos. Please let me know what you think.
 
I like it, nightblitz42 ! Though some of the targeting restrictions are a shame, I think this change will overall help special attackers diversify their combos. Nice!

This is in the system that you've proposed as well as the current one, and I'm not sure how it works: Struggle Bug + Disable hits three opponents. What moves would it disable? How exactly does that work?

Does the restriction on Bracing and Idling mean that Protect can't be shifted anymore?

And what exactly does the "cunning moves must be able to trade items on hit" mean? It's not only Thief/Switcheroo/etc that's cunning. The category includes stuff like Infestation, First Impression, False Surrender, and Feint. What exactly does that mean? (Same with Vampiric and stuff like Forest's Curse/Trick or Treat/Reflect Type)

I really like the breakdown of each class/subclass btw!
 

nightblitz42

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Sivanandi
Disable always requires the user to specify which move it is disabling. Its success or failure would be on an individual basis for each target it hits.

As for Protect: yes. I completely forgot about passing Protect. I'm actually thinking I might need to make the ally targeting version CT: None to prevent spread P/E combos.

I should probably clarify that Cunning Combos must be able to trade items on hit, as opposed to cunning moves. The goal is to prevent combos with moves such as Trick that could create impossible interactions (for example, how would Knock Off + Trick work). Flavorfully and mechanically, each Cunning move should be comboable with moves like Trick.
 

nightblitz42

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I would like to suggest a Combo codification:
If one component move targets the "Entire Battle" and the other component move does not, the resultant Combination targets "All Targets". The effect of the "Entire Battle" component move is treated as a Secondary Effect of the combo (e.g. only apply the effect if the Combination successfully hits something).

This codification would make clear what happens when a combo such as [Rock Slide + Stealth Rock] is used. The combination would target "All Targets", and if it hits at least one Pokemon then it sets a layer of Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side of the field. If it doesn't hit anything then it doesn't set Stealth Rocks. I think it's the cleanest, most consistent way to handle these sorts of Combos.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
Can we make Future Sight CT: Set? Having to worry about it on psychic type combos is bad enough, it's far too much for it to also be able to screw over subs for combos of other types as well.
 

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