Resource Game Issues and Feedback Thread

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Mowtom

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Can we make Future Sight CT: Set? Having to worry about it on psychic type combos is bad enough, it's far too much for it to also be able to screw over subs for combos of other types as well.
Bumping this. I guess maybe it should be for Doom Desire also? Though that one has way less distribution so whatever.

Also can we please ban rolling crits to be 416/10000? That isn't exactly equal to 1/24 and I don't understand why people are allowed to ref different odds than the actual odds.
 

Dogfish44

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So, if a Focus Punch combination is broken by being hit, does the combo-user suffer Cooldown or not? I know stuff like Para doesn't result in cooldown - but on this specific instance, the move has started to be attempted.

(416/10000 is given in handbook - I know we used to ping refs using 6/100 since that was a 1/400 chance being skipped over, but somehow I don't find myself having the energy to care about an additional 1/15000 chance of a crit - at that level I'd be *more* concerned with issues over psuedorandomness ^^; )
 

JJayyFeather

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Bumping this. I guess maybe it should be for Doom Desire also? Though that one has way less distribution so whatever.

Also can we please ban rolling crits to be 416/10000? That isn't exactly equal to 1/24 and I don't understand why people are allowed to ref different odds than the actual odds.
Honestly, I'd motion to have Future Sight/Doom Desire just moved to CT: None. There's nothing of real value gained from them being comboable besides potent headaches on all fronts.

Also, yes while this difference is very rarely going to come into play, all rolls are to be done using accurate probability, not rounded probability. And, I'll edit the handbook to note that 4.16% is an approximation, not the exact value.

So, if a Focus Punch combination is broken by being hit, does the combo-user suffer Cooldown or not? I know stuff like Para doesn't result in cooldown - but on this specific instance, the move has started to be attempted.
Cooldown as written interprets as the result of executing a combination. Which would mean that for all charge moves in a combination, being interrupted between the charge turn and execution turn of an action would stop the combination from executing, and thus would not cause Cooldown.

This is to be taken as Word of God on the matter, and I'll make sure to edit it into the appropriate places.
 

Mowtom

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Totally fine with Future Sight/Doom Desire being CT: None, that also works.

The handbook claims Toxic/Flame Orb activate at the end of the round while the description claims it's at the end of the action, can we fix this please?
 

Dogfish44

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The above on Toxic/Flame Orb still requires resolution.

Q: Can we make a "Damaging Sound Move" substitution class? There's a shitton of these moves, with some ruddy *bizarre* interactions that would be logical to sub for - same principle as subbing for Multi-Hit moves imo (except more consistent - quite a few Multi-Hit moves don't break charge moves, for instance ¬¬), and a similar size to some of the other 'Broad' substitution classes.
 
If we are going to keep the Legend Gauntlet as our Legendary-distribution process, I think that we should give victors the option to take a different, relatively special reward instead of the Legendary Pokemon. Compared to the Legend Runs of old, a flaw of this system is that it artificially limits the number of any particular Legendary Pokemon that can exist within the playerbase; while every player could eventually obtain a given Legendary Pokemon after enough attempts of a Legend Run, only half of the players participating in a Legend Gauntlet win the reward Pokemon. It would be dishonest for a past winner to repeat a Legend Gauntlet, as they would have no motivation to win and, therefore, could play only to help another player farm the facility; as a result, there will always be at least one player who cannot add a given Legendary Pokemon to their profile.

I am open to suggestions to fix this issue, but I would favor a couple of options. First, giving away a substantial amount of counters as a prize could be an effective choice; even a 33-50% increase over the prizes of a standard match of the same format would be well worth a player's efforts, and we could include a small JC award and/roe a reimbursement of the cost of signing up to make the Legend Gauntlet a unique way to afford future battles; our player base seems to like battling better than reffing, so skipping the comparative hassle of reffing could be an attractive idea. Another nice option would be to offer a Stage increase for one of the Pokemon used to win the Gauntlet; given the difficulty in reaching the last two stars of a Pokemon's development, this could be a rough equivalent in worth to obtaining a weaker Legendary Pokemon at Stage 3. Either way, these ideas would incentivize players to repeat a Legend Gauntlet and ensure maximal distribution of each Legendary Pokemon.
 

JJayyFeather

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If we are going to keep the Legend Gauntlet as our Legendary-distribution process, I think that we should give victors the option to take a different, relatively special reward instead of the Legendary Pokemon. Compared to the Legend Runs of old, a flaw of this system is that it artificially limits the number of any particular Legendary Pokemon that can exist within the playerbase; while every player could eventually obtain a given Legendary Pokemon after enough attempts of a Legend Run, only half of the players participating in a Legend Gauntlet win the reward Pokemon. It would be dishonest for a past winner to repeat a Legend Gauntlet, as they would have no motivation to win and, therefore, could play only to help another player farm the facility; as a result, there will always be at least one player who cannot add a given Legendary Pokemon to their profile.

I am open to suggestions to fix this issue, but I would favor a couple of options. First, giving away a substantial amount of counters as a prize could be an effective choice; even a 33-50% increase over the prizes of a standard match of the same format would be well worth a player's efforts, and we could include a small JC award and/roe a reimbursement of the cost of signing up to make the Legend Gauntlet a unique way to afford future battles; our player base seems to like battling better than reffing, so skipping the comparative hassle of reffing could be an attractive idea. Another nice option would be to offer a Stage increase for one of the Pokemon used to win the Gauntlet; given the difficulty in reaching the last two stars of a Pokemon's development, this could be a rough equivalent in worth to obtaining a weaker Legendary Pokemon at Stage 3. Either way, these ideas would incentivize players to repeat a Legend Gauntlet and ensure maximal distribution of each Legendary Pokemon.
We began deliberation on this topic almost immediately when we started working on the initial draft of The Legend Gauntlet. We just didn't focus on the issue too much quite yet because it's a lot more of a "what if" measure currently instead of an issue fix. While I agree 100% that the issue you've presented will arise at some point, the important thing here is "at some point," and that point is further down the line than both a different issue with TLG's operation standpoint (challenge pods vs increasing the number of available TLGs) and just other things to address within the system.
 

Mowtom

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According to Bulbapedia, Solar Blade's power is halved in rain/sand/hail, but our description of the move says nothing about that. Is this intentional?
 

TMan87

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According to Bulbapedia, Solar Blade's power is halved in rain/sand/hail, but our description of the move says nothing about that. Is this intentional?
It wasn't, and it should now be fixed.
Brought this up on Discord but can we make Razor Fang affect Fishious Rend?

The Fang boosts all other moves tagged as #jaw and it definitely fits flavourwise/thematically.
After internal discussion, we decided to keep Razor Fang as-is. Fishious Rend is in a weird place compared to the other Fang moves, and we felt like it didn't really need a boost.
 
Psychic description said:
If the user is not Psychic-type, and the target's Weight Class exceeds two (2) plus the user's Special Attack rank, Psychic will fail.
This has never been relevant in my 5 years in ASB. Can we nix this clause (and similar ones for moves like Seismic Toss)?
 
Seismic Toss: If the target's Weight Class is equal to or greater than the user's Weight Class + 4, this move fails.
Sky Drop: Sky Drop fails ... if the target's Weight Class is equal to or greater than the user's Weight Class + 3.
Circle Throw: Circle Throw can be used against targets with a Weight Class up to three (3) values greater than the user.
Psychic: If the user is not Psychic-type, and the target's Weight Class exceeds two (2) plus the user's Special Attack rank, Psychic will fail.
Storm Throw: Storm Throw can be used against a target with a Weight Class up to two (2) values greater than the user.
Strength: If Combined with Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Storm Throw, Submission, or Vital Throw, weight restrictions will be ignored.
Submission: Submission can target Pokemon with a Weight Class up to two (2) values greater than the user's Attack Rank.
Vital Throw: Vital Throw can be used against target with a Weight Class up to four (4) values greater than the user.

And while we're here, what are people's thoughts on eliminating things like:
Rock Slide: Non-Rock-type users require an external source of rocks, else this move fails.
Solar Beam: If the Pokemon is entirely isolated from sunlight or powerful artificial lights, such as an unpowered structure with no windows, this attack fails.

Finally, now that combos have been entirely codified, there are only two moves that leave anything up to ref interpretation:
Bodyblock (Command)/Take Cover (Command): ... except those attacks that strike targets regardless of position or target in such a manner that make blocking them impractical (ex. Earth Power or Thunder).

Those commands also have some really weird obscure references to Pokedex size.
 

HHP just needs its description to be edited to take out the weight-based mechanics that it no longer has.

Also, I think OHKO moves should be tagged #OHKO to clarify interactions between No Guard and Lagging Tail.
 
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JJayyFeather

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OHKO moves are actually already a clearly defined group - the PHB has them grouped as a valid Attack Clause.
Seismic Toss: If the target's Weight Class is equal to or greater than the user's Weight Class + 4, this move fails.
Sky Drop: Sky Drop fails ... if the target's Weight Class is equal to or greater than the user's Weight Class + 3.
Circle Throw: Circle Throw can be used against targets with a Weight Class up to three (3) values greater than the user.
Psychic: If the user is not Psychic-type, and the target's Weight Class exceeds two (2) plus the user's Special Attack rank, Psychic will fail.
Storm Throw: Storm Throw can be used against a target with a Weight Class up to two (2) values greater than the user.
Strength: If Combined with Circle Throw, Seismic Toss, Storm Throw, Submission, or Vital Throw, weight restrictions will be ignored.
Submission: Submission can target Pokemon with a Weight Class up to two (2) values greater than the user's Attack Rank.
Vital Throw: Vital Throw can be used against target with a Weight Class up to four (4) values greater than the user.

And while we're here, what are people's thoughts on eliminating things like:
Rock Slide: Non-Rock-type users require an external source of rocks, else this move fails.
Solar Beam: If the Pokemon is entirely isolated from sunlight or powerful artificial lights, such as an unpowered structure with no windows, this attack fails.
HHP just needs its description to be edited to take out the weight-based mechanics that it no longer has.
These and all cases adjacent to them have been cleaned up I believe, let me know if I missed anything.

Bodyblock (Command)/Take Cover (Command): ... except those attacks that strike targets regardless of position or target in such a manner that make blocking them impractical (ex. Earth Power or Thunder).
I haven't done anything yet, but without meaningful pushback, I'm looking to completely delete these commands as well.
 
I haven't done anything yet, but without meaningful pushback, I'm looking to completely delete these commands as well.
I would say that Bodyblock and Take Cover have enough merit to remain in the game. These Commands provide a valuable tool for every Pokemon's movepool, serving as a middle-ground option between Ally Switch and passed Protect while outclassing neither. Moreover, Take Cover and Bodyblock add a degree of relevancy to a Pokemon's Size Class, which otherwise exists only for flavor and statistical purposes. In this regard, they parallel the weight-based moves and Abilities that have existed for generations of mainline Pokemon titles, helping the Commands feel more realistic for a Pokemon-based forum game. If the ambiguity involved in bypassing these Commands is a problem, a simple solution would be to either allow recoil moves to break the effect and allow moves that never miss to bypass the effect, or remove the ability to work around the protection altogether.

--------------------------------------------------
As long as I'm here: what would you all think of a new type of Item that existed between the distinct categories of Held Items and Consumables? I had a few ideas for Items that provided a weaker, constant effect and contained a limited number of "charges" for a stronger effect, but I don't want to waste anyone's time if such a concept is currently undesirable.
 

TMan87

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I would like to hear an example of such an item before making any conclusions. Right now I'm having trouble envisioning the concept and its potential power level.
I'd also like to highlight that, since I assume it won't be taken from in-game, you'd have to make a pretty strong argument for the item and its usefulness.
 

nightblitz42

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Proposed changes regarding moves that beat Protect:
Problem: the codification for which moves do and do not beat Protect is shoddy and inconsistent. Also there is quite a bit of room for damaging combos that beat Protect, which is something we are trying to move away from starting in Gen8.1.

New Protect description:
The Pokemon erects a barrier that prevents any move that targets the user from taking effect for the turn it is used in. Attacks will not miss when used on the Pokemon but will not have any effect. Attacks/Combos with Target: "Entire Battle" or "All Allies" will ignore Protect. Z-Moves will only have 75% of the damage blocked. Whilst a Pokemon is under the effect of Protect it is immune to critical hits. This move fails if used on successive actions, or after a move tagged as #P/E. In a multi-battle, Protect may be shifted to an ally, but it then has zero (0) priority and uses the target's typing, defenses, and stage boosts for purposes of calculating extra energy cost. Protect will only protect the user if used in a combination such as Protect + Light Screen, Reflect, and Safeguard. Z-Move Effect: The user's negative stat changes are reset to 0, adjusting the natural stage of the reset stats.

As for the moves that beat Protect in-game, I would like to split them into two categories:
  • The move explicitly beats Protect in BBP and has a Combo Type of "None".
  • The move does not beat Protect in BBP.
Ignores Protect and cannot be used in a combo:
Acupressure
Aromatic Mist
Conversion 2
Decorate
Doom Desire
Feint
Flower Shield
Future Sight
Hold Hands
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Perish Song
Phantom Force
Psych Up
Role Play
Shadow Force
Stealth Rock
Sketch
Spikes
Transform

Loses to Protect in BBP despite in-game:
Bestow
Block
Confide
Curse
Mean Look
Play Nice
Roar
Spider Web
Tearful Look
Whirlwind

Should explicitly lose against Protect to match in-game:
Teatime

Justifications/Notes:
  • If/when we rework Perish Song, we may decide to change its interaction with Protect.
  • Hazards need to explicitly beat Protect because they target "All Foes", not "Entire Battle".
  • Some moves like Acupressure and Decorate should beat Protect because they provide beneficial effects to allies. However, they should be CT: None to prevent potential damaging spread combos that beat Protect.
  • For trapping moves and switch-forcing moves to beat Protect is very powerful in a format where players usually have 3-6 actions to try to inflict Trapping before the opponent's next Switch Phase.
  • The other moves on the "lose-to-protect" list don't interest me very much either way, but don't make sense to me as protect-beating moves from a flavor standpoint.
  • Teatime loses to Protect in-game despite targeting "Entire Battle".
  • After implementing this, we should rule on Protect based strictly on what is written in the Data Audit, similarly to how we rule for other interactions.
Any thoughts? Concerns? Adjustments?
 
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Re: Gen 8.2 Updates:

I dislike the removal of Evasive moves on a personal level, but I understand that a cheap means of avoiding damage could be considered undesirable.

I am confused and disappointed by the changes to Metronome and Assist. These moves are now too unreliable to see any serious use, and their newly convoluted effects—as indicated by the fact that way their new effects will be implemented is currently unknown—directly contradicts our apparent focus on simplifying as many mechanics as possible.

The thought of new Gender mechanics is intriguing, and I would like to hear more about this.

I would appreciate someone filling me in on the rationale behind removing Toggle functionality, as my initial impression likely misrepresents some aspect of the decision.
 

nightblitz42

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P2X7 :

The reason for slating Metronome and Assist changes is because the randomness of these moves prevents them from activating Substitutions. Personally I love the "intended" use of Metronome, Assist, and Sleep Talk because they require a lot of thought and knowledge from the player, and because they lead to unpredictable situations. However, the potential to bypass substitutions with these moves is degenerate, especially considering that it is possible to put multiple subbed-for moves inside of a single declaration of Metronome/Assist/Sleep Talk. Unfortunately, we have not found a simple, powerful, and faithful way to preserve this randomness while also respecting the opponent's Substitutions. We are also looking at revamping Sleep Talk somehow for the same reasoning, but we have not decided upon the specifics for that move.

The reasons for reworking Gender:
  1. Their current gender mechanics don't allow any room for strategy. The gender ratio of the opponent's mons is unpredictable and completely detached from any other BBP game mechanics. Therefore, you cannot realistically "strategically" choose the gender of a mon you purchase. That is probably for the best, since I doubt a "gender-selection metagame" would be very engaging anyways.
  2. Attract's effect (50% RNG action denial) is frustrating for the victim, and also doesn't promote much strategy beyond "inflict Attract and pray".
  3. Despite being very frustrating for the victim, Attract is still extremely weak and sees no serious use outside of aforementioned "last-ditch effort" plays.
  4. This last point is very very minor, but: from a flavor standpoint, detaching gender mechanics from strictly M/F allows for more flavor opportunities.
My initial preference would be to turn Attract/Infatuation into a simple evasion-reduction effect (or some other minor effect, Attract is a universal move after all) and also allow Attract to affect all targets regardless of gender (or lack thereof). I don't know what to do with Rivalry -- maybe make it give a boost if the opponent shares a type with the user?

JJayyFeather is the main proponent of removing Toggle from most Abilities, so I'll let him field that topic.
 
nightblitz42:

Lottery Moves:
Eliminating degenerate options is inarguably good design philosophy, but I think that Metronome/Assist/Sleep Talk can be reconciled with this concept through milder means. Unless I'm mistaken, when Metronome and company call a move, that move is considered to have been used for the purposes of any substitution in the orders of a Pokemon moving later in the action. This means we really only have to worry about these moves' interactions with retroactive knowledge and faster opponents (i.e. priority shifting substitutions).

Given that Metronome already can't call moves of the same type, I think that either of the following restrictions could help reduce its degeneracy:
1. If at least three of the moves selected by Metronome belong to the same substitution class, Metronome shares that substitution class.
2. Each move called by Metronome must belong to a different substitution class.

The first option leaves Metronome a mere 10-20% chance to slip past an opponent's substitutions, which is no worse than the chance of wasting an action as a result of a status condition or unlucky miss. More importantly, this would also allow a player to react to Metronome at a different point in the action order, creating an opportunity to include important options such as CounterCoat, Prankster Taunt, damaging Priority moves, Sleep Talk, and Psycho Shift in a substitution. Alternatively, the second choice would prevent a player from hedging their bets by packing Metronome with every move in such powerful sub classes as entry hazards or sleep-inducing moves, lowering the chance of an upset.

Assist can be changed in similar ways; the first option for Metronome could be revised to fit Assist's smaller call pool (likely lowering the threshold to two moves), and the second option works just as well for this move. A third method — which could coexist with either of the others — would be to simply add Metronome's rule preventing moves of the same type from being chosen together. This should solve one of the issues you mentioned by preventing an Assist user from outright ignoring certain substitutions, such as by, say, laughing off a Damaging Electric-type Move substitution by calling the pool of Thunderbolt/Thunder/Zap Cannon.

In contrast, I think that Sleep Talk can safely avoid any rework, as it is inherently more defensive in application; its primary use is preventing a player from losing a Pokemon to the Sleep status, and Rest's wake-up clause means the RestTalk strategy can be foiled by any Pokemon capable of reaching a metagame-relevant damage output.


Gender:

Those are all solid points; I can't really disagree with anything posted here and in the Implementation Thread. My only suggestion would be to key Rivalry to Egg Group rather than typing, as I think this would retain more of Rivalry's "competition over mates" flavor and broaden its applicability.
 
Random-call Moves (RCM):

The glaring issue is that Pokemon can neither anticipate nor react to the outcome of a slower opponent's RCM. Therefore, a simple solution to this issue is to add the following line to the descriptions of whichever moves are deemed problematic:

The selection of [Metronome/Assist/Sleep Talk] is checked at the beginning of the action. During that action, the user is considered to be set to use both [Metronome/Assist/Sleep Talk] and the chosen move for the purpose of all substitutions.
Comments on the individual moves will be coming at a later date.
 

nightblitz42

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P2X7 :
For Metronome:
  • Fix #1 does not address the issue, just flips it on its head. Now I'd be able to trigger Move Clauses with a 70% chance of not actually doing a subbed-for move, if I can find 3 different moves of different types that share a category.
  • Fix #2 actually does fix the core issue for the most part, although it could be confusing and anybody who's not an expert would have an extremely difficult time using this move. Plus, calling illegal Metronomes inside of a sub as a "bait sub" would be far too degenrate in this case.
As for Egg Groups, it's not the worst idea. There'd be a little bit of unbalance because of different sizes of Egg Groups, but I'm okay with that. My only complaint would be the extra bookkeeping work it would entail (another Profile Update thread >_>)

S0L1D G0LD
That proposed fix seems somewhat promising, but opens up more loopholes that would also need to be addressed. Firstly, we would have to forbid the Metronome user from declaring certain subs to "cheat" Metronome's RNG, especially ordering second ("If my own Metronome would call X THEN use Y move instead"). Secondly, we would have to figure out what to do with Metronome declared inside a Chance Sub (would we roll the move at the start of each Action not knowing if the sub will trigger or not?). Finally, there would still be the possibility of declaring Metronome inside of a sub knowing that some of the possible move selections will make the sub illegal (and so it won't call Metronome, essentially reducing the number of possibilities).


In general:
Regardless of the practicality of each of these individual moves (metronome/assist/sleep talk), I believe their basic interactions with sub rules are all way too messy and lead to too much potential degeneracy to leave as-is. Their intended uses as defensive tools, YOLO upsets, and sleep-circumventers are fine.
 
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