Garchomp and this Metagame

[Mr.E]

Just so you know in advance, I didn't read half the posts here because they probably don't say anything of value. (I don't know that, though, since I didn't read them!) So just let me know if I'm repeating crap...

Anyone that says they'd stop running Steels, if Garchomp was banned, is a moron who shouldn't even be discussing such a serious competitive issue. Of course you still need a Steel Pokémon or two, are you just going to run max SpD Tyranitar to cover Specsmence? How do you handle DD/Outrage Dragonites? Steel is the only resistance against an otherwise very powerful offensive type in general and Garchomp is certainly not the only threat that uses it. Ice attacks still boast a broad range of coverage, including against the other two Dragons mentioned above. Aside taking Garchomp out of your own teams, a well-designed team shouldn't change all that much.

Porygon2 is completely awesome, I just wish it had the same stat total as PZ ala Scyther/Scizor. :( HP Electric [Water pogeys] are a joke, as is Charge Beam Cresselia even though nobody mentioned it yet. Don't.

Just chiming in to say that Skiddle's absolutely right. If you have a Porygon2 on your team, Gyarados is nearly a non-issue. Gardevoir is also very good if it is appropriately EVed. Porygon2's utility isn't limited to being a Gyarados counter, either. With BoltBeam, Recover, and space for an additional support move (Toxic, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat), it's a solid team player.

No such Pokémon exists for Garchomp. Garchomp is also less predictable, has better stats, and has much better type coverage with its attacks. Please stop comparing the two.

Garchomp has no "hard" counter as good as P2 is for Gyarados, but there's plenty that will still scare him off in general. Cresselia is probably the most ubiquitous example since it's immune to Earthquake and threatens Ice Beam. Skarmory is self-explanatory. Gliscor utilizes Sand Veil too and takes less than 50% from Scarfed Outraged (and can at least survive one Swords Danced blow from those sets). Weavile and Mamoswine threaten STAB, often CBed Ice Shard. Deoxys-S can outspeed even Scarfed versions and OHKO with Ice Beam. Toxic Spikes is really, really good at countering the Sub/SD sets.

I could go on for another page listing everything that can possibly stop Garchomp or scare it away. Honestly, the only thing that makes Garchomp particularly more dangerous than any other heavy attacker is... Sand Veil. Letting SD versions get that Substitute up kills any of the offensive options for stopping it (Garchomp isn't that fast) or missing that Ice Beam that your Cresselia had to eat 75% to deliver is an extra death at best or a game-ender at worst, depending what else you have that can handle it. There's a reason Evasion moves are banned in standard play and no other pokémon so dangerous otherwise has a built-in Evasion trait.

That said, you still have 4/5 odds on getting through Sand Veil if your active pokémon can otherwise kill or disable Garchomp. (Especially if you're faster.) Sand Veil itself is only useful combined with Sand Stream, which is the more "broken" of the two traits anyway. :P (If Sand Stream wasn't permanent, which it really shouldn't be, Sand Veil would be nearly irrelevant. Don't ban Garchomp, ban T-Tar and Hippowdon! And Abomasnow!) Without the hax trait it's no more dagerous than Infernape or Lucario, use more weather moves if you hate it that much -- they're surprisingly useful. Hell, use Reflect!

Oh, and watch out for Waterfall flinches. Skarmory, and related stuff like Tpunch Dusknoir, are as reliable Gyarados counters as Ice Beam [pokémon] is to Garchomp with an active Sand Veil. ;o Gyarados can reach higher speeds and isn't susceptible to the Electric priority attack which doesn't exist. Stupid comparison to begin with, anyway.

I don't know if Yuki plays shoddy or wifi more, but I'm guessing wifi. I play wifi more, and Tyranitar is not used nearly as much. That may be the problem when trying to defend Garchomp. Obviously the wifi metagame is different than what it is on Shoddy.

PKMN1 is buffeted by the Sandstorm!

... (life ticks down) ...

PKMN1 recovered with its LEFTOVERS!

... (life ticks up) ...

PKMN2 is buffeted by the Sandstorm!

... (life ticks down) ...

PKMN2 recovered with its LEFTOVERS!

... (life ticks up) ...

~_~

 

[Jumpman16]

e i think your assessment that the main reason garchomp is such a bitch is because of sand veil would have been accurate 4-5 months ago but you don't seem to be aware of yache chomp and the fact that most yache chomp don't even care if an ice attack lands

 

[Mr.E]

I still stand by it. Yache Berry [Dragon] isn't exactly a new concept, you can still chunk off over half its life with an Ice attack and it's obviously inferior against other attack types. (Having an Ice attack available is not a 100% foregone conclusion.) I'm no more concerned about Yache Berry than I am Leftovers, Brightpowder, or Salac Berry.

Garchomp isn't that fast and it's not the only offensive juggernaut that is nearly unwallable, Sand Veil is really the only thing that separates it from its contemporaries. There are plenty of setups in D/P that can put oneself in a similar "stop it now or lose" condition, Garchomp is simply the only one that can make the counter miss and cause a sweep right there.

And here's another good "gtfo" move I forgot about that I figure needs specific mention because it ignores evasion: Destiny Bond.

 

[Jigglypuff]

e i think your assessment that the main reason garchomp is such a bitch is because of sand veil would have been accurate 4-5 months ago but you don't seem to be aware of yache chomp and the fact that most yache chomp don't even care if an ice attack lands

It's true that there is no "perfect" counter to YacheChomp, but Dragonite and Salamence (with Choice Scarf) can come in on anything that isn't outrage and KO with a Dragon move.

 

[Glen ^^]

It's true that there is no "perfect" counter to YacheChomp, but Dragonite and Salamence (with Choice Scarf) can come in on anything that isn't outrage and KO with a Dragon move.

How useful are them with a Choice Scarf besides the surprise factor on Garchomp?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I still stand by it. Yache Berry [Dragon] isn't exactly a new concept, you can still chunk off over half its life with an Ice attack and it's obviously inferior against other attack types. (Having an Ice attack available is not a 100% foregone conclusion.) I'm no more concerned about Yache Berry than I am Leftovers, Brightpowder, or Salac Berry.

Garchomp isn't that fast and it's not the only offensive juggernaut that is nearly unwallable, Sand Veil is really the only thing that separates it from its contemporaries. There are plenty of setups in D/P that can put oneself in a similar "stop it now or lose" condition, Garchomp is simply the only one that can make the counter miss and cause a sweep right there.

Except in the time it takes you to just shave off half its life, it is 2hkoing you while you fail to OHKO and you lose. Jumpman's claim that Garchomp doesn't care about Ice attacks is true, it removes its only exploitable weakness (except scarfed Dragon moves which are extremely rare and kind of useless. Scarfmence and Scarfnite are good but I'm certainly not using them to counter Garchomp)

Garchomp is extremely fast. 102 Base Speed is a shitload, and more importantly its in its own speed tier. If Garchomp even had 100 Base Speed it wouldnt be as threatening. The "stop it now or lose" condition is boosted by Sand Veil as you said, but it is boosted even more by the fact that it requires two pokemon to counter it with its unparalleled STAB type coverage. After a Swords Dance, Garchomp 2hkos every pokemon in the game at worst while it is nearly impossible to OHKO. It has enough power to not even need to whittle its HP down with Life Orb or use something like an Expert Belt. You need a sacrifice to take its Yache out, then something else to finish it. Garchomp doesn't even need Sand Veil to be broken, it would be just as amazing even with no ability. Sand Veil is just the cherry on top. It is an automatic change in pace in the battle and using it extremely effectively takes little skill.

 

[Jigglypuff]

How useful are them with a Choice Scarf besides the surprise factor on Garchomp?

Probably a little less useful than ScarfChomp. There's potential for surprise factor against other pokemon besides Garchomp. For example, Scarf Dragonite can surprise non-scarf Heatran who would normally expect to outspeed Dragonite.

 

[Mr.E]

Except in the time it takes you to just shave off half its life, it is 2hkoing you while you fail to OHKO and you lose. Jumpman's claim that Garchomp doesn't care about Ice attacks is true, it removes its only exploitable weakness (except scarfed Dragon moves which are extremely rare and kind of useless. Scarfmence and Scarfnite are good but I'm certainly not using them to counter Garchomp)

Garchomp is extremely fast. 102 Base Speed is a shitload, and more importantly its in its own speed tier. If Garchomp even had 100 Base Speed it wouldnt be as threatening. ...

Brightpowder makes it more likely for that Ice attack to miss entirely and also works against non-Ice attacks, such as Infernape's Close Combat or Skarmory's Roar/Whirlwind. Leftovers gives Garchomp more switching power and can give it enough health for an extra Substitute for an extra turn of Sand Veil hax abuse. Salac Berry takes Garchomp from "fast" to "hope you're packing max Speed Scarfchomp, Deoxys-S, or Ice Shard." Yache Berry has its own obvious advantage but it's a lot more specialized and less useful in general compared to the other items I listed off.

Garchomp is not extremely fast, Deoxys-S is. Of course Garchomp would be less threatening at 100 Base simply because then it'd be going 50/50 with the likes of other dangerous pokémon like Zapdos and Salamence. Other than that, no. Gengar still outspeeds Garchomp, hurts pretty good with Shadow Ball or HP Ice and has access to both Explosion and Destiny Bond. Infernape outspeeds it, and the list goes on. Garchomp has enough to outspeed the majority of the cast but it's nowhere near unstoppably quick. No access to priority moves, either.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Brightpowder makes it more likely for that Ice attack to miss entirely and also works against non-Ice attacks, such as Infernape's Close Combat or Skarmory's Roar/Whirlwind. Leftovers gives Garchomp more switching power and can give it enough health for an extra Substitute for an extra turn of Sand Veil hax abuse. Salac Berry takes Garchomp from "fast" to "hope you're packing max Speed Scarfchomp, Deoxys-S, or Ice Shard." Yache Berry has its own obvious advantage but it's a lot more specialized and less useful in general compared to the other items I listed off.

I don't see how an 8% extra chance of one miss is better than not being OHKOd by any used attack in the game. Salac is good, but Yache is better since it lets it set up for free even against the multitude of pokemon it is faster than, or on pokemon strong enough to take one hit from it. Leftovers is essentially a joke on Garchomp. Who cares about switching power when you only need to come in once?

The fact that Garchomp can use all of these items effectively is even more credit in its corner. What other pokemon can use as many items as well as Garchomp can? Yache, Salac, Life Orb, Brightpowder, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Leftovers.....

Garchomp is not extremely fast, Deoxys-S is. Of course Garchomp would be less threatening at 100 Base simply because then it'd be going 50/50 with the likes of other dangerous pokémon like Zapdos and Salamence. Other than that, no. Gengar still outspeeds Garchomp, hurts pretty good with Shadow Ball or HP Ice and has access to both Explosion and Destiny Bond. Infernape outspeeds it, and the list goes on. Garchomp has enough to outspeed the majority of the cast but it's nowhere near unstoppably quick. No access to priority moves, either.

Garchomp IS extremely fast. The only pokemon in the top 10 of usages that outspeeds it is Gengar, which fails to OHKO and is OHKOd by Garchomp in return. 102 Base Speed is much more than people give it credit for. Unfortunately when trying to counter Garchomp, "hurting something good" isn't good enough. Almost doesnt count, especially when Garchomp is OHKOing you in return.

Oh, and about Ice Shard, Mamoswine is barely OU, and Garchomp is used more than three times as much as Weavile is.

 

[Mr.E]

Substitute gives Garchomp the best opportunity to set up at all by providing universal protection against all attacks and all status while letting it stall for Sand Veil misses. Yache Berry is absolutely useless on a Subchomp, for an obvious reason, so they can essentially be considered mutually exclusive.

Thus, "Yachechomp" cannot stall (via Sub) to take advantage of Sand Veil, making it less able to get set up in the first place. It is susceptible to faster pokémon in general. Ice attacks aren't the only things targeted at Garchomp, faster pokémon will kill it in two or three hits regardless and will often finish the job after a defensive pokémon chips off 30-70% from Garchomp -- Yache Berry doesn't help one damn bit against that. Yachechomp is no better against the likes of Toxic Spikes or Destiny Bond than any other Garchomp and it doesn't help against the Ice attacks that don't OHKO in the first place (e.g. many HP Ice users, Ice Beam Blissey or Cresselia which don't have unusually high SpA specifically for the purpose of OHKOing Garchomp otherwise). blagh blagh blagh I'm tired of elaborating when you don't listen and we're arguing on IRC now anyway

You have low standards for what is "extremely" fast. Why restrict yourself to the Top 10 used? There's still Starmie, Weavile (also packs Ice Shard), Dugtrio not to mention Choice Scarf. There are plenty of options for outspeeding Garchomp and I haven't even hit the walls that aren't OHKOed by Swords Danced hits such as Bronzong, Cresselia, Dusknoir that can deliver fairly strong blows back. (The latter two have Ice attacks, Bronzong has STAB 150 Gyro Ball.) Garchomp in general is by no means instant win IF it gets set up and IF it's even a SDing moveset. Just like any other pokémon, a single moveset (and hold item) cannot dominate absolutely every opponent.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Substitute gives Garchomp the best opportunity to set up at all by providing universal protection against all attacks and all status while letting it stall for Sand Veil misses. Yache Berry is absolutely useless on a Subchomp, for an obvious reason, so they can essentially be considered mutually exclusive.

Substitute gives it two counters in Bronzong and Skarmory. Fire Fang does not have this obvious disadvantage. Stalling for Sand Veil misses is a terrible strategy that won't work more often than not. Yache Berry IS useless on a SubChomp, I wasn't arguing that since hardly anyone uses SubChomp anymore. Stalling for Sand Veil misses and whittling your own HP down is what makes Garchomp suceptible to priority moves, whereas with Yache Berry it can just stat up in peoples faces and not have to worry about being OHKOd.

Status moves are irrelevant in this case because nobody uses them against Garchomp because of the "stop it now or lose" mentality that you eluded to earlier.

Thus, "Yachechomp" cannot stall (via Sub) to take advantage of Sand Veil, making it less able to get set up in the first place. It is susceptible to faster pokémon in general. Ice attacks aren't the only things targeted at Garchomp, faster pokémon will kill it in two or three hits regardless and will often finish the job after a defensive pokémon chips off 30-70% from Garchomp -- Yache Berry doesn't help one damn bit against that. Yachechomp is no better against the likes of Toxic Spikes or Destiny Bond than any other Garchomp and it doesn't help against the Ice attacks that don't OHKO in the first place (e.g. many HP Ice users, Ice Beam Blissey or Cresselia which don't have unusually high SpA specifically for the purpose of OHKOing Garchomp otherwise). blagh blagh blagh I'm tired of elaborating when you don't listen and we're arguing on IRC now anyway

Yache Chomp doesnt stall with sub. It stat ups and sweeps while still taking advantage of Sand Veil. Faster pokemon who can kill it in two or three hits all have one thing in common: Garchomp kills them in ONE. Sure, it can be revenge killed at 30%...but that means it's already KOd one of your pokemon. Toxic Spikes are a pretty good way to slow Garchomp- its too bad that only 3 OU pokemon can learn that move. Also, Destiny Bond isn't a bad idea either, except the only OU pokemon that could use it is Gengar, which usually has better things to be doing anyways. And yes, it does help against Ice Attacks that don't ohko in the first place. If your Blissey Ice Beams my YacheChomp for only 30%, you now have a dead pokemon and a Garchomp with a shitload of HP that is extremely difficult to revenge kill.

I am listening. Almost everything that you've stated is either inaccurate or irrelevant to how the game is played today.

You have low standards for what is "extremely" fast. Why restrict yourself to the Top 10 used? There's still Starmie, Weavile (also packs Ice Shard), Dugtrio not to mention Choice Scarf. There are plenty of options for outspeeding Garchomp and I haven't even hit the walls that aren't OHKOed by Swords Danced hits such as Bronzong, Cresselia, Dusknoir that can deliver fairly strong blows back. (The latter two have Ice attacks, Bronzong has STAB 150 Gyro Ball.)

I restricted myself to the top 10 most used because that seemed like a good number. Starmie loses to yache chomp, Chomp is used more than three times as much as Weavile. The walls dont have to be OHKOd. They are 2HKOd while they fail to OHKO Garchomp back. Garchomp still wins. STAB 150 Gyro Ball may put a dent in Garchomp, but it does not OHKO.

 

[CLegacyM]

Keep in mind before reading my post that I have not had the time to read through this entire thread (I will do so after this post for a more educated post myself). So anything I say that has already been said -- see it as a reinforcement of that opinion.

My opinion on Garchomp is a pretty simple one: I don't think that he's uber at all.

Really this stems from the fact that we've been using Garchomp since the beginning of the generation and at no point have I ever felt overwhelmed facing Garchomp, nor have I ever felt that he truly influences the metagame in the way that some people imply he does.

I don't think that the metagame would change very much at all without him in it, aside from not being able to use him. Team composition would remain mostly the same, you would still have most of the same threats to deal with. This opinion is reinforced by the fact that, as people love to point out, Garchomp doesn't have any one true counter.

As far as I am concerned this is the biggest argument that people have as far as Garchomp being uber goes.

Why does a pokemon have to have a counter to make it useable in standard? Any of the "counters" that work for Garchomp, if they do die to say an SDed outrage, or something similar, do enough damage before death to make Garchomp killable by the next pokemon coming in. So another argument I've heard is that it isn't fair that Garchomp guarantees a kill or that it takes 2 pokemon to kill it. What makes that unfair? It just means that it's a strong pokemon (something there are many of in OU anyway) and that you actually have to use your playing ability to work around it.

No, Garchomp doesn't guarantee a kill every match. If Garchomp takes out a counter it will usually be crippled itself. Yes it can do a lot of damage to any pokemon in the game, but there are tons of pokemon that can do that. Everything seems to be resting on the idea of a counter and that's what makes it non-uber. But, truly, there is no definition for Uber in the first place and while we like to make distinctions between overpowered pokemon and less powerful ones -- there is no clear line here between Garchomp and the rest of OU.

Usage has been pointed out a lot to me -- so I will point it back to you. What about Blissey? Blissey was used just as much, if not more than, Garchomp in ADV. It was on almost every team you played against and it influenced the metagame much more than Garchomp did (seeing as Garchomps counters are usually necessary on a team whether or not Garchomp is present due to other similar threats). Usage definitely can't dictate whether or not something is 'too powerful' for OU.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. As I already stated there is no true definition as to what makes a pokemon uber so it's impossible to truly say for any one reason as to why Garchomp should be set apart from standard play. But, I will say that since I started playing in DP at no point has there ever been a time where Garchomp has singlehandedly defeated my team, nor have I ever felt that it was the sole reason that I won. Pokemon is a team game and it seems to me that you guys are focusing too much on the individual aspects of Garchomp. Of course it can take out one pokemon in the game but it is then left for dead. Most other ubers aren't left in the same position -- they can keep taking pokemon out long after the first. This isn't usually true for Garchomp. Plus, with some prediction and a decent team Garchomp will find it hard to even get one kill -- I usually don't have a problem thwarting it.

Keep some of this in mind when you are forming your own opinion in the future.

 

[CLegacyM]

I don't see much reason to change the post I already had, so I'll just go ahead and answer the first post of the topic.

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Not really. I barely use Garchomp as it is -- and on my team that I am using now he doesn't see much action anyway. I could find many replacements for him on my team that would work just as well. In terms of defending against him? My teams are all offensively based so his presence doesn't really change the makeup of my team because I cover all the dragons and threats that are similar to Garchomp and I don't put any extra emphasis on it.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?


Nope. Like I said up there -- I find that there are many pokemon that are usable in standard that are just as threatening as Garchomp and I prepare for them all equally. In fact, I worry more about Lucario and Heracross. But, like I've said before, a lot of the offensive threats overlap so it's not worth focusing heavily on.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Sure I do. I have more than 1 way of dealing with almost every offensive threat though -- it's not exclusive to Garchomp. People put far too much emphasis on its offensive capabilities to realize that a lot of pokemon can do what it does, and they are more unpredictable which is, in my opinion, much more threatening than a single strong set.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

In a sense I would say yes. Just because of the general misconception that I feel people have over Garchomp. I really don't think that it's as much of a threat as people make it out to be and it only ends up being so because people are overprepared and just have this "monster" in their minds when thinking of Garchomp. Personally Garchomp is just another threat on the list to me and I think that's how everyone should view it and they'd see their game step up a little bit and they'd be able to handle it better.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

I think there was. Blissey was far more centralizing than Garhcomp was in its hayday.

In terms of threats? I think there are many pokemon just as threatening or more threatening than Garchomp in OU.

Gengar, Tyranitar, Weavile, Infernape, Togekiss, Lucario, Swampert, Mamoswine, Deoxys-E (more threatening), Salamence, Gyarados etc.

The list goes on but I don't need to list anymore because a lot of people are going to disagree with it. That's ok. It's my opinion and I've had a lot more of a problem dealing with some of those than Garchomp.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In regards to Garchomp's survivability:

-102 speed means I can count the number of OU pokemon that outspeed it on my fingers.


-Defenses arguably better than swampert

-Sandveil

In regard to garchomp's offensive: lol

 

[CLegacyM]

It's not really comparable to Swampert in the dffensive department since people don't use its defensive stats whereas they do with Swampert. Swampert still gets mauled easily if it doesn't invest in its defenses.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yes, I'm aware that you don't ev garchomp the same way you ev swampert. So what? The point it has that degree of defensive potential, so that even as a sweeper with 0 evs in its defensive stats, it still has considerable defensive power.

If swampert had Swords Dance, 130 ATK and 102 speed along with its defenses, we wouldn't be using it as a defensive set-up-semi-offensive tank either. We'd be loling "Eat my Torrent-boosted Waterfall" and bitching about it in another threat just like this one. :P

 

[Mr.E]

Status moves are irrelevant in this case because nobody uses them against Garchomp because of the "stop it now or lose" mentality that you eluded to earlier.

Shaky accuracy aside, Garchomp hates both Poison and Burn. (At least it's immune to T-Wave.) Substitute gives it a better opportunity and more chances to set up other than a one-time "eat a hit for half my health" gives it. Obviously, the sacrifice is a lost move slot that opens up more pokémon to wall it. Compare this to YacheChomp which, by the way you make it sound, just eats a hit to get in a Swords Dance and hopes it outspeeds and OHKOs everything from there on out. But there are quite a few pokémon it doesn't outspeed or doesn't OHKO that can serve as soft counters.

At any rate, I will respond to the only relevant piece of information you posted:

"Sure, it can be revenge killed at 30%...but that means it's already KOd one of your pokemon."

ONE pokémon? Well by golly gee, do you know how many god damn pokémon consistently kill ONE enemy pokémon? Of course it will kill something in the vast majority of circumstances. The other Dragons will as well. So will Metagross. Infernape. Gyarados. Lucario and Gengar will usually kill something through their unpredictability rather than brute forcing it, but same thing. That's what heavy attackers do, especially Garchomp's fellow 600-BST friends who also boast fairly good defenses. Honestly, you're not so much arguing that Garchomp itself is broken as you are arguing Dragon attacks in general are broken. "But Salamence and Dragonite are weak to Stealth Rock!" -- Shut up. Garchomp doesn't even OHKO most pokémon without its Swords Dance anyway, exploit that lag time.

Yache 'Chomp is one subsetof Garchomp sets that allows it take a hit against its most exploitable type weakness. That merely means you shouldn't rely on Ice Beam Cresselia to be your sole Garchomp counter, else you could pay for it. So what? You need a backup plan for most of the dangerous offensive threats in the game. If you only have Tbolt Starmie to take care of Gyarados, you're boned if Weavile takes it out early. Mixape will run through your ass if you're not carrying one of about five pokémon or so that handily counter it (most of which are weak to Stealth Rock too), let alone the potential surprise of it using completely different movesets. Azelf is a terror, beware of Dugtrio if Heatran if your sole counter. Likewise, Yache 'Chomp will run through you if all you have is some goofy HP Ice Scarfgar and a team otherwise defenseless against Garchomp behind it. Try a different approach or make sure you have a secondary plan if the primary one falls through.

And how common is Gengar without either Explosion or Destiny Bond? Not very.

In regards to Garchomp's survivability:

-102 speed means I can count the number of OU pokemon that outspeed it on my fingers.

The only pokémon that outspeeds the 100 Base crowd that doesn't ALSO outspeed Garchomp is... Garchomp.
Yes, I know Base 100 is ground for quite a few other threats, but 50/50 coin flip isn't the same as flat-out being faster.

 

[Syberia]

e i think your assessment that the main reason garchomp is such a bitch is because of sand veil would have been accurate 4-5 months ago but you don't seem to be aware of yache chomp and the fact that most yache chomp don't even care if an ice attack lands

But I'd even be willing to sacrifice a pokemon to remove the Yache Berry and revenge kill it with something else if it was guaranteed to work 100% of the time. What I have a problem with is that no matter how many counters and revenge killers you have, there's still a chance you'll lose because Garchomp's ability can decide it wants to fuck you over at a moment's notice. If Garchomp had Sandstream or pretty much just any other ability, I wouldn't be bitching about what's required to kill him, because in that case it would work 100% of the time. So yeah, I'm kind of with Mr. E on this one.

So to whoever said "Sand Veil is just the icing on the cake," yes, it is. It's what pushes it clearly into broken territory.

Substitute gives Garchomp the best opportunity to set up at all by providing universal protection against all attacks and all status while letting it stall for Sand Veil misses. Yache Berry is absolutely useless on a Subchomp, for an obvious reason, so they can essentially be considered mutually exclusive.

Substitute almost requires Swords Dance to go along with it to be useful. In which case you sacrifice type coverage, and become completely walled by Bronzong and Skarmory. IMO, Substitute ruins Garchomp.

I don't understand why Mamoswine is barely OU, it's a damn useful pokemon on almost any team.

 

[Taylor]

It is crystal clear that banning anything from the game mechanics of Pokemon will not be considered, ever, which means they will never be touched upon in any way, shape, or form. So, Garchomp's Swords Dance cannot be dismissed from its movepool. I personally find this unfortunate, as I believe Swords Dance is Garchomp's main asset and arguably the reason why it has no singular counters in the first place.

If it wasn't for Swords Dance, then surely bulkier Pokemon such as Cressilia, Gliscor, and Bronzong would be your singular, ideal counter for Garchomp? The three aformentioned Pokemon won't be 2HKOed in future, meaning that these three become viable counters for Garchomp. Afterall, it is Swords Dance that allows Garchomp to 2HKO the metagame, and the element of Garchomp's physical dominence that requires Yache Berry in the first place. Because Cressilia can continue to use Rest and Sleep talk, hoping for Ice Beam selection, Sand Veil becomes a non-factor because you're more than welcome to continue to replenish your HP until you eventually hit Ice Beam. Without Swords Dance, Garchomp is unable rampage through your walls like they were frail Magikarp, (clearly exaggarated).

 

[Chou Toshio]

I don't understand why Mamoswine is barely OU, it's a damn useful pokemon on almost any team.

I agree. Unfortunately, I'd have to say that bronzong's high usage is a big problem for mamo.

 

[Mr.E]

...Swords Dance...

I hold it in no higher regard than Dragon Dance. Garchomp finds itself susceptible to faster pokémon because it is always forced to take the hit from them. Sand Veil hax aside, it should be dying after a couple kills at most because it's simply not that fast. His primary Dragon buddies, Salamence and Dragonite, circumvent this by boosting their Speed but are more susceptible to bulky counters since they boost Attack more slowly.

 

[Overworld]

I'll answer these from the standpoint of the team I'm using now.

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Probably not. My team has a Cress with Ice Beam on it, which hits a lot more than just Garchomp for SE damage. If Garchomp wasn't there, I probably would keep it as is to deal with DDnite and Salamence, as well as other Flying and Grass threats, because its original purpose was for all three of the dragons.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

No. I feel that Garchomp is no more threatening than any other Pokemon. As a matter of fact, right now I have the likes of Celebi threatening me more than Garchomp, interestingly.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

As I've stated, Cress was my original counter. But Swampert + Avalanche works well, as well as Tangrowth + Grass Knot, or, if he's asleep (as is fairly likely due to Crobat's Hypnosis or Tangrowth's Sleep Powder), Metagross can use Meteor Mash and Lucario can spam Aura Sphere (both are Choiced, by the way).

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Doesn't just about anything? Entry hazards increase the amount of spinners, spinners increase the popularity of Dusknoir and Gengar. The popularity of SkarmBliss last generation increased the popularity of its counters this generation (since we've got more options), the popularity of Tyranitar increased the use of Focus Blast Gengar... I mean, that's what's supposed to happen in a metagame, right? Everything impacts something else until it all eventually balances out. You can take out Garchomp, and some ice moves might be used less, but something else will just take its place, much like there's always someone next in line for the presidency in case the president dies.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

I would list the entirety of of the OU tier... but to be perfectly honest, I don't feel like restating my last response when it's perfectly visible a few lines up.

 

[Syberia]

I agree. Unfortunately, I'd have to say that bronzong's high usage is a big problem for mamo.

I used to run CurseSwine + Magnezone, and I didn't have that issue. Now I just run a team that doesn't really care about Bronzong (and still includes Mamoswine, albeit mixed with HP Fire for Forretress/Scizor/Skarm).

It's like the one true "anti-SS-team" pokemon.

 

[CLegacyM]

Nobody that is pro-banning Garchomp has addressed my post. :(

 

[Syberia]

Addressed.

Keep in mind before reading my post that I have not had the time to read through this entire thread (I will do so after this post for a more educated post myself). So anything I say that has already been said -- see it as a reinforcement of that opinion.

My opinion on Garchomp is a pretty simple one: I don't think that he's uber at all.

Really this stems from the fact that we've been using Garchomp since the beginning of the generation and at no point have I ever felt overwhelmed facing Garchomp, nor have I ever felt that he truly influences the metagame in the way that some people imply he does.

I don't think that the metagame would change very much at all without him in it, aside from not being able to use him. Team composition would remain mostly the same, you would still have most of the same threats to deal with. This opinion is reinforced by the fact that, as people love to point out, Garchomp doesn't have any one true counter.

As far as I am concerned this is the biggest argument that people have as far as Garchomp being uber goes.

The problem I have with Garchomp is that, no matter how many counters it has, it can still just decide it doesn't want your attacks to hit. One miss with a supposedly "100% accurate" (and let's be honest, you can't use any better move than that) Ice Beam can very well turn the game around from a situation in which your Suicune/Cress/Starmie/whatever has Garchomp pretty well beat to a situation where what you had available to take it out just got screwed by a 20% chance that you can't reasonably do anything about (Scarf Golduck and Ice Shard Abomasnow aside, but those would be overcentralizing just a tad). Not to mention that you generally have to hit Garchomp twice to take it down, which is only a 64% chance. If you don't, you'd better have a third counter, because two of them most likely just died.

Why does a pokemon have to have a counter to make it useable in standard? Any of the "counters" that work for Garchomp, if they do die to say an SDed outrage, or something similar, do enough damage before death to make Garchomp killable by the next pokemon coming in. So another argument I've heard is that it isn't fair that Garchomp guarantees a kill or that it takes 2 pokemon to kill it. What makes that unfair? It just means that it's a strong pokemon (something there are many of in OU anyway) and that you actually have to use your playing ability to work around it.

That's all fine and well, except you can just as easily miss with your next pokemon, and then there's probably nothing you can do. If Garchomp was guaranteed to take a pokemon down with it but could 100% be revenge killed, I would not have nearly as much trouble with it.

Additionally, I will raise a key distinction between Garchomp and other pokemon such as Lucario, Gengar, and Salamence. Surely the latter three can be considered to have no true counter, but, that is only because of their sheer unpredictability. Every individual set of four moves those pokemon can conceivably run does have a counter. Garchomp will generally be running the same four moves with the same held item every time you see it. Does knowing that information make it any easier to counter? No. You're probably going to still lose a pokemon, and you can still get Sand Veiled just as easily.

No, Garchomp doesn't guarantee a kill every match. If Garchomp takes out a counter it will usually be crippled itself. Yes it can do a lot of damage to any pokemon in the game, but there are tons of pokemon that can do that. Everything seems to be resting on the idea of a counter and that's what makes it non-uber. But, truly, there is no definition for Uber in the first place and while we like to make distinctions between overpowered pokemon and less powerful ones -- there is no clear line here between Garchomp and the rest of OU.

Yes there is. Just look at the usage statistics.

Usage has been pointed out a lot to me -- so I will point it back to you. What about Blissey? Blissey was used just as much, if not more than, Garchomp in ADV. It was on almost every team you played against and it influenced the metagame much more than Garchomp did (seeing as Garchomps counters are usually necessary on a team whether or not Garchomp is present due to other similar threats). Usage definitely can't dictate whether or not something is 'too powerful' for OU.

You cannot compare Garchomp to Blissey, regardless of what the usage statistics may be telling you. One is a wall, one is an offensive powerhouse. One wrong move, or one miss, against Blissey is not going to drastically alter the game the way it will against Garchomp.

Blissey is a de-centralizing force, if anything. Without it, Alakazam, Raikou, Azelf, non Sub-Punch Gengar, Specsmence, etc. would tear through the metagame like nothing. Blissey is the reason special sweepers with vast movepools, such as these, are not totally overpowered.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. As I already stated there is no true definition as to what makes a pokemon uber so it's impossible to truly say for any one reason as to why Garchomp should be set apart from standard play. But, I will say that since I started playing in DP at no point has there ever been a time where Garchomp has singlehandedly defeated my team, nor have I ever felt that it was the sole reason that I won. Pokemon is a team game and it seems to me that you guys are focusing too much on the individual aspects of Garchomp. Of course it can take out one pokemon in the game but it is then left for dead. Most other ubers aren't left in the same position -- they can keep taking pokemon out long after the first. This isn't usually true for Garchomp. Plus, with some prediction and a decent team Garchomp will find it hard to even get one kill -- I usually don't have a problem thwarting it.

Keep some of this in mind when you are forming your own opinion in the future.

Actually, there are several different definitions of uber, and Garchomp is beginning to fit each and every one of them more and more.

Originally Posted by Fat The definition of uber:
Overcentralization

[...]

No counters

[...]

Luck

Looks to me like Garchomp fits all three of these.

We call a Pokemon overpowered, if despite the countertrends developed in order to stop it, the usage continues to rise

Need I say more?