Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[Bologo]

Just when you were winning, you messed yourself up with that terrible comparison.

The answer is: phase, a phaser is a lot more likely to stay alive against gliscor than garchomp.

Heh, explain to me how that's a terrible comparison?

I don't believe that I messed myself up at all, because the main point there was that Garchomp isn't the only thing that can win the game with Sand Veil, but he's only being complained about because he's #1. Admit it, that's the ONLY reason he's being complained about.

Frig, someone already mentioned that Gliscor has Taunt, so your point makes zero sense, and even without Taunt, Sand Veil only has an 80% chance of hitting, and if Gliscor has Brightpowder, a 72% chance, and Gliscor can just capitalize on that and bust up the phazer on his own.

You can technically say that Gliscor has no counters for the exact same reason that people are saying that Garchomp has no counters, because of Sand Veil...however, that's obviously not true. Gliscor can also lessen the sting of Ice attacks with Roost, and keep on sweeping.

Side note: I agree that people really SHOULD NOT be assuming that Garchomp already has a Swords Dance or Sandstorm up. That's extremely naive, because the battle doesn't always play out like that, and this "uncounterable" strategy won't be so uncounterable if either of those things aren't up already.

 

[GengarCrysis92]

IMO, Mamoswine is worse. SS imunity, Hail immunity and Snow Cloak to boot. SE Ice and SE Ground, his sets hit a lot more types than Chomp, IIRC.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

If you aren't using a Sand Streamer then don't assume that Sand Veil is worth it. Hippowdon shares a very common weakness with Garchomp, and most things that hit TTar SE hit Garchomp for at least neutral. That means that by having both of them together you are setting yourself up for a few common weaknesses, meaning that something like Swampert or Slowbro which is in against one of your Sand Sandstreamers is going to prevent any switches against Garchomp. There, it's an inherent weakness in having both a Sand Streamer and Garchomp.

Try and build a team with out at least one shared weakness, then come back and talk. Every team has some shared weaknesses, it doesn't make it inherently bad, and it doesn't make Garchomp any more counterable

I think that almost everything that I've listed as a counter is not overspecialised.

You haven't listed a counter yet! A counter is a pokemon that can switch into all moves in a set and force a switch. All you have listed is Bronzong+Kingdra, and you are talking about sacrificing a pokemon to set up another one to revenge-kill, not counter. If it takes you 2 pokemon to even revenge kill Garchomp, you need to work on your team.

You don't need to have a Rain Dance team to set up rain for just one pokemon.

Now this is just stupid. If you are going to sacrifice a pokemon to set up rain dance, then you should have at least 2 pokemon to take advantage of it.

I've had a team that had both a Rain Dance Bronzong and a Sunny Day Butterfree, setting up Kingdra and BellyZard, which ended up having something like a 30-12 win-loss record.

NEVER USE RAIN AND SUN TOGETHER! If you set up rain and butterfree dies, Charizard can't do shit for 3-8 turns (depending on whether you use wet rock or not). Using Butterfree with Charizard is terrible by your logic, since they have common weaknesses. Actually, it is terrible by anyone's logic, if you plan on going from Butterfree to Charizard, because stone edge kills them both.

Not a weather team, but still gets rid of Sand.

That is definately a weather team.

This entire thread is full of things that on their own, without being intended to, counter Garchomp.

No, this thread is full of things people had to make specifically to beat Chomp

I'm asking you because if something is good, it's going to centralise.

This is a poorly constructed sentence, but I'll respond anyways. If somethings good, people are going to use it, there is a difference.

Blissey is awesome, and people try to specifically counter Blissey.

No they don't, any physical fighting move kills her, and anything can switch in to her. Every single fully evolved fighting type in the game is a blissey counter.

People do crazy shit like put Hyper Beam on Porygon or Explode their Azelf/Gengar/Heatran.

They do that to beat a counter, not because it's the only way to beat her.

Blissey centralises. Where's the cutoff between that and overcentralising?

I already said something is over centralizing if you need to make someting specifically to beat it. I wouldn't mind banning Blissey too, but that's because I love shuckle, and wish it would be able to be used more competitively.

There's things like CBMamoswine, which, even though it may not be able to switch in on all of Garchomp's attacks, Garchomp can't switch in safely to a lot either. CBMamo EQ does 78-92 to Garchomp. So no switch in there. Not an overspecialised counter, not a weather team.

It isn't a counter at all if it can't switch in to all his attacks.

 

[Kira]

How does Blissey over centralize other than making you use a physical attack once in a while. I mean it is not our fault gamefreak did not give any other special wall a reliable auto recovery (no moonlight is not that reliable)

Just because it is used way too much does not make it overcentralized.

 

[Jenigmat]

Try and build a team with out at least one shared weakness, then come back and talk. Every team has some shared weaknesses, it doesn't make it inherently bad, and it doesn't make Garchomp any more counterable

That isn't my point. My point is that you can't assume that your opponent will set it up. To get Garchomp's ability, you have to "pay" the "price" of one of your pokemon. I can just as easily spend one of my pokemon on Abomasnow, and so I think we should not assume Sand Veil or Snow Cloak or any other weather abilities.

You haven't listed a counter yet! A counter is a pokemon that can switch into all moves in a set and force a switch. All you have listed is Bronzong+Kingdra, and you are talking about sacrificing a pokemon to set up another one to revenge-kill, not counter. If it takes you 2 pokemon to even revenge kill Garchomp, you need to work on your team.

No, I'm not taking 2 pokemon to set up and revenge kill Garchomp. I'm taking 2 pokemon to do what I would normally do. I always sacrifice my Bronzong to set up a Kingdra sweep. It's part of how I play. I'm not setting up for the sole purpose of revenge killing Garchomp. Again, if I want to just switch in something and force a switch, I can use any normal Bronzong, Forretress, Skarmory, Hippowdon, etc. All of these can do more to Garchomp than Garchomp can do to them, and if Garchomp hasn't gotten in a SD, they can switch in fine. Assuming that Garchomp has gotten one in is a dumb idea. It would be like assuming that Azelf starts off with about 700 Special Attack. (Nasty Plot)[/quote]

Now this is just stupid. If you are going to sacrifice a pokemon to set up rain dance, then you should have at least 2 pokemon to take advantage of it.

Why? Out of all the matches I've played, Kingdra has usually done everything I want him to do by the end of the 6 turns he has, and I don't need to keep him around any longer. I'll admit that in most cases there's no reason to have weather for just one pokemon, but look at Hail teams. Often only one or two things can take advantage of the Hail. Same kind of thing. Depends on the team.

NEVER USE RAIN AND SUN TOGETHER! If you set up rain and butterfree dies, Charizard can't do shit for 3-8 turns (depending on whether you use wet rock or not). Using Butterfree with Charizard is terrible by your logic, since they have common weaknesses. Actually, it is terrible by anyone's logic, if you plan on going from Butterfree to Charizard, because stone edge kills them both.

Or, you could not ignore what I said about winning more than double my losses. I know what I'm doing when I battle, which is why I don't ever have to worry about Garchomp. And you don't actually know my team, meaning that you can't really comment. My team doesn't have to worry about Garchomp, and it isn't intended to counter it specifically.

That is definately a weather team.

Ok, maybe.

No, this thread is full of things people had to make specifically to beat Chomp

Bronzong is on a lot of teams, using any one of the movesets we've mentioned. The only move that I've said outside of my Rain Dance example that a Bronzong needed to carry was Gyro Ball. I don't think people specifically put Gyro Ball on Bronzong for Garchomp.

This is a poorly constructed sentence, but I'll respond anyways. If somethings good, people are going to use it, there is a difference.

That's my point. Blissey and Garchomp are both good. People are going to use both. Therefore you have to plan against both of them. When you design a team, I'm sure you think of what you'll do against Blissey, even if it's as simple as putting a fighting attack on a physical sweeper.

No they don't, any physical fighting move kills her, and anything can switch in to her. Every single fully evolved fighting type in the game is a blissey counter.

Every single fully evolved pokemon with a reasonably strong Ice attack is a Garchomp by the same reasoning. Many fighting types can't switch into Blissey well, because of the threat of Paralysis, Sing, or for Lucario, Flamethrower.

They do that to beat a counter, not because it's the only way to beat her.

People use Hail teams to beat Dragons, not because it's the only way to beat Garchomp.

I already said something is over centralizing if you need to make someting specifically to beat it. I wouldn't mind banning Blissey too, but that's because I love shuckle, and wish it would be able to be used more competitively.

You don't need to make anything specifically to beat Garchomp. People do not use Mamoswine specifically thinking, "hey, I bet that if I use this awesome STAB with a priority Ice move off of a 130 Attack stat, I'll be able to kill one pokemon." They use Mamoswine because it's good. Not specifically designed to beat Garchomp.

It isn't a counter at all if it can't switch in to all his attacks.

Mamoswine with 148 HP Ev's can switch into all of Garchomp's Attacks. With Max Attack, 148 HP, and 108 Speed can sponge a Garchomp Outrage and next turn OHKO with a priority attack.

EDIT: @Kira: yea, that's kinda exactly my point. Blissey doesn't overcentralise, Garchomp doesn't overcentralise either.

 

[Dane]

Mamoswine with 148 HP Ev's can switch into all of Garchomp's Attacks. With Max Attack, 148 HP, and 108 Speed can sponge a Garchomp Outrage and next turn OHKO with a priority attack.

What if the Garchomp user is smart enough to not lock himself into Outrage when he's unsure about whether or not someone has an Ice Sharder like Mamoswine waiting in the wings? What would Mamoswine do if he gets hit by Fire Fang or Fire Blast instead? Then, not only can Garchomp switch out, Mamoswine is going to take quite a bit of damage, and he can only do that just so many times before it kills him.

 

[Jenigmat]

What if the Garchomp user is smart enough to not lock himself into Outrage when he's unsure about whether or not someone has an Ice Sharder like Mamoswine waiting in the wings? What would Mamoswine do if he gets hit by Fire Fang or Fire Blast instead? Then, not only can Garchomp switch out, Mamoswine is going to take quite a bit of damage, and he can only do that just so many times before it kills him.

When I was figuring out the ev's I picked Garchomp's most powerful attack. I don't expect to switch mamoswine into any Outrages. I intended to switch in Mamoswine, which could switch in on any of Garchomp's moves, including Draco Meteor from a Standard Chain Chomp, and force a switch. This is a guaranteed counter. And not only is it a guaranteed counter, but it also is a great pokemon for everything else, indicating that it is not an over specialised counter.

 

[Blue Harvest]

You don't need to have a Rain Dance team to set up rain for just one pokemon. I've had a team that had both a Rain Dance Bronzong and a Sunny Day Butterfree, setting up Kingdra and BellyZard, which ended up having something like a 30-12 win-loss record.

I have to say, i'm not impressed. My old stall team had a 34-5 win/loss record. Garchomp EQ will hit just as hard regardless of the weather, and the second you change it they can change it back even easier.

Not a weather team,

Yes it is.

but still gets rid of Sand. You don't need your counters to be too overspecialised. This entire thread is full of things that on their own, without being intended to, counter Garchomp. I'm asking you because if something is good, it's going to centralise. I'll admit that. Blissey is awesome, and people try to specifically counter Blissey. People do crazy shit like put Hyper Beam on Porygon or Explode their Azelf/Gengar/Heatran. Blissey centralises. Where's the cutoff between that and overcentralising?

You forget STAB Hyper Beam and Explosion are rediculously powerful moves that create huge holes in whatever they hit. Also Blissey is usually not a threat on its own. No Blissey will sweep unless its some strange Calm Mind / Salac Bery Blissey.

 

[Jenigmat]

Ok, my intention isn't to compete over Win-Loss records. that isn't my best team by a long shot. But it isn't an inherently bad team. I don't care how hard a Garchomp EQ hits, a Mamoswine EQ, Breloom Focus Punch, Lickilicky Explosion, all hit just as hard. None of that is relevant. I'm only saying not to assume Sand Veil. As easy as it is to change the weather to sand it's that easy to change it to Hail. If you want to assume Sand Veil I'll assume perfect accuracy Blizzards and Snow Cloak. Which only makes Mamoswine happier. Don't get hung up on the details if they don't affect my point that Sand Veil shouldn't be assumed.

I'm not saying Blissey's going to sweep teams. I'm saying, however, that it centralises just as much as Garchomp does. I cited some examples of things that are in existence solely because of Blissey. No one would put Hyper Beam on Porygon if Blissey didn't exist. Yes, I'll admit that it's a very powerful suicide attack, just like Explosion. However, it still exists only because of Blissey. You still can't say that Blissey is overcentralising, and the same goes for Garchomp.

 

[Dane]

When I was figuring out the ev's I picked Garchomp's most powerful attack. I don't expect to switch mamoswine into any Outrages. I intended to switch in Mamoswine, which could switch in on any of Garchomp's moves, including Draco Meteor from a Standard Chain Chomp, and force a switch. This is a guaranteed counter. And not only is it a guaranteed counter, but it also is a great pokemon for everything else, indicating that it is not an over specialised counter.

Using Chain Chomp from the Analysis page, and the EV spread of the Curse and Resttalk sets for Mamoswine:
Garchomp - +Atk Nature, 252 SpAtk EVs, Life Orb
Mamoswine - +Atk Nature, 124 HP / 64 Def / 68 SpDef EVs
Garchomp's Fire Blast vs Mamoswine = 86.22% - 101.53%

If you switched Garchomp's Nature to +SpAtk rather than +Atk, the damage becomes: 94.39% - 110.97%

Even if it forces Garchomp out a single time, it won't be able to a second time. That isn't much of a counter. I'll give you that it isn't a specialized counter, but it's a counter nonetheless that can possibly be OHKO'd by what he's countering.

 

[Jenigmat]

How bout instead of using the sets somewhere else, you use the set I listed earlier?

CB Mamoswine with 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108
Then you get 84-99%.

With my pleas that we do not assume any weather or any entry hazards taken into account, this still survives. The only thing I'm changing from the analysis is the EV's. 148 EV's survives EVERYTHING Garchomp can do.

Plus, ChainChomp can do a lot to Mamoswine, I'll admit. But even if you're using a Mild Garchomp and kill Mamoswine, then I instantly know whan Garchomp set you're using and how to counter it.

 

[Dane]

How bout instead of using the sets somewhere else, you use the set I listed earlier?

CB Mamoswine with 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108
Then you get 84-99%.

Is that supposed to be 108 Speed (as posted previously in the thread) or 108 Special Defense? Because if it's speed:

Standard Chain Chomp Fire Blast vs 0 Special Defense Mamoswine: 93.97% - 110.55%
+SpAtk Chain Chomp Fire Blast vs 0 Special Defense Mamoswine: 103.02% - 121.11%

Standard Chain Chomp Fire Blast vs 108 Special Defense Mamoswine: 80.40% - 94.47%
+SpAtk Chain Chomp Fire Blast vs 108 Special Defense Mamoswine: 87.94% - 103.52%

Still has a chance to OHKO if Chain Chomp used a +SpAtk nature if you had 108 in Speed rather than Special Defense, and even if you don't OHKO Mamoswine he's still crippled and can't force a switch out a second time.

 

[Bankai]

Side note: I agree that people really SHOULD NOT be assuming that Garchomp already has a Swords Dance or Sandstorm up. That's extremely naive, because the battle doesn't always play out like that, and this "uncounterable" strategy won't be so uncounterable if either of those things aren't up already.

Actually, you should.

Almost everybody with Garchomp on their team uses either Hippowdon or Tyranitar. That's 1 part of the set up. Don't start talking bullshit about using weather to counter them, because weather is bad.

Furthermore, you can assume the Garchomp will only switch in when it gives your opponent an advantage. That means either that your Pokemon has no chance of killing him, or Garchomp can easily kill your Pokemon.

This forces a switch. If the Garchomp user predicts the switch, and Subs, he can easily setup Sword dance before you can start dealing damage to him.

On another note, as I'm too lazy to quote more posts, Blissey is NOT overcentralizing at all. Blissey walls Special attackers, and nothing more. A physical attacker can switch in and utterly rape Blissey. However, to make sure they don't have to do that, people have started putting attacks on their special attackers to kill Blissey. This is not overcentralizing. This is people thinking of something clever to kill the thing that walls them. There is no need to put explosion on Heatran- Blissey walls Heatran, but you can still kill Blissey with a physical attacker.

Also, someone said "If a fighting type is considered a counter for Blissey, then every ice type is a counter for Garchomp."

That is just bullshit. Have you even read this thread? The definition of a counter is that it can switch in on the Pokemon and kill him. Almost all fighting types can switch in on Blissey and kill her, as Blissey isn't really dangerous.

But Garchomp OHKOS about every Ice pokemon there is (bar Mamoswine) and then outspeeds them if they came in on a resistance or earthquake when levitating/flying.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

That isn't my point. My point is that you can't assume that your opponent will set it up. To get Garchomp's ability, you have to "pay" the "price" of one of your pokemon. I can just as easily spend one of my pokemon on Abomasnow, and so I think we should not assume Sand Veil or Snow Cloak or any other weather abilities.

The difference is, Hippowdon is one of the best tanks in OU, Abomasnow is only OU because of Snow Warning

No, I'm not taking 2 pokemon to set up and revenge kill Garchomp.

So are you telling me that you aren't setting up kingdra, and Bronzong isn't dying?

It's part of how I play. I'm not setting up for the sole purpose of revenge killing Garchomp.

Do you have another way to kill him?

Again, if I want to just switch in something and force a switch, I can use any normal Bronzong, Forretress, Skarmory, Hippowdon, etc. All of these can do more to Garchomp than Garchomp can do to them, and if Garchomp hasn't gotten in a SD, they can switch in fine.

Did you see the calculations at the beginning of the thread? The only one that can switch in is Hippowdon, which is why it is so easy to assume Chomp is getting Sandstream.

Assuming that Garchomp has gotten one in is a dumb idea. It would be like assuming that Azelf starts off with about 700 Special Attack. (Nasty Plot)

I never assumed he got one in. He 2hkos without one. That is why it is so broken.

Why? Out of all the matches I've played, Kingdra has usually done everything I want him to do by the end of the 6 turns he has, and I don't need to keep him around any longer.

Yeah all 42 of them. That really isn't that many.

I'll admit that in most cases there's no reason to have weather for just one pokemon, but look at Hail teams. Often only one or two things can take advantage of the Hail.

Completely untrue. There will be at least 2 or 3 ice pokemon, and at least 1 or 2 others with Blizzard (100% accuracy in hail).

Or, you could not ignore what I said about winning more than double my losses.

It doesn't matter if you have that many wins if they were against unskilled players. If that was a Smogon record I might be impressed. Besides, 42 is not that big of a number. With luck, I'm sure I could win 2/3 out of all my rock-paper-scissors matches.

I know what I'm doing when I battle, which is why I don't ever have to worry about Garchomp.

If you never have to worry about Garchomp, you either haven't faced it or are facing people who don't know how to use them.

And you don't actually know my team, meaning that you can't really comment.

I do know your team because you told us 4/6 of the pokemon you use.

My team doesn't have to worry about Garchomp, and it isn't intended to counter it specifically.

Now you are just repeating yourself.

Bronzong is on a lot of teams, using any one of the movesets we've mentioned. The only move that I've said outside of my Rain Dance example that a Bronzong needed to carry was Gyro Ball. I don't think people specifically put Gyro Ball on Bronzong for Garchomp.

Bronzong is on alot of teams, rain dance Bronzong isn't.

That's my point. Blissey and Garchomp are both good. People are going to use both.

They are both good, but Blissey is good without being overcentralizing. Read my posts and those of others please.

Therefore you have to plan against both of them. When you design a team, I'm sure you think of what you'll do against Blissey, even if it's as simple as putting a fighting attack on a physical sweeper.

No, I don't because you don't even need a fighting attack to 2hko bliss.

Every single fully evolved pokemon with a reasonably strong Ice attack is a Garchomp by the same reasoning.

No, I don't think every fully evolved pokemon with an ice attack is a garchomp XD. But, my point was, you can switch into Blissey without dying, the same isn't true of Chomp. Also, have you seen the calcs ITT that show the amounnt of attack/spec. att. needed to OHKO Chomp? They are rediculous. The amount needed for KOing him Physically is insane, and thats with 0/0 or 4/0.

Many fighting types can't switch into Blissey well, because of the threat of Paralysis, Sing, or for Lucario, Flamethrower.

The fighting gets paralysised, Blissey dies. Garchomp kills the Ice type, they don't do jack to him. Sing doesn't work because of its 55% accuracy and Sleep Clause. Most Blisseys don't have FT, and the ones that do probably won't OHKO Luke the way Chomp can OHKO ices.

People use Hail teams to beat Dragons, not because it's the only way to beat Garchomp.

Is Garchomp not a dragon?

You don't need to make anything specifically to beat Garchomp. People do not use Mamoswine specifically thinking, "hey, I bet that if I use this awesome STAB with a priority Ice move off of a 130 Attack stat, I'll be able to kill one pokemon."

Yes, they do.

They use Mamoswine because it's good. Not specifically designed to beat Garchomp.

Why do you think all Mamoswine have Ice shard and Choice Band?

Mamoswine with 148 HP Ev's can switch into all of Garchomp's Attacks. With Max Attack, 148 HP, and 108 Speed can sponge a Garchomp Outrage and next turn OHKO with a priority attack.

Except for sub/powder chomp.

 

[Jenigmat]

@Bankai: Your argument is that people are going to be good enough when using Garchomp so as to have the skill needed to predict and set up a SD. My counter argument is that people are going to use PREDICTION and PREDICT against Garchomp.

@Adamant Torterra: You say that since Garchomp has never been threatening against me, it must have been used badly? That argument works both ways, I could use the same reasoning and say that everyone who's ever played against you with Garchomp is much better than you. And my damn point about bringing up my mixed weather team is Sand Veil. I'm not saying it's a good team, I'm not saying that every team is going to be amazing like that. I'm just saying that it's not hard to change weather back and forth and that I'd like to assume no weather unless there's a reason to assume it. And no, I'm not saying that all Mamoswine have CB and Ice Shard. But I am saying that that set counters just about everything Garchomp can do. And if Garchomp subs on the switch, next turn Mamoswine will use Ice Shard and break the sub while Garchomp gets in a hit, not killing Mamoswine. Mamoswine can attack before Garchomp can put up another hit. What's the chance that Mamoswine will miss both Ice Shards? Plus the 25% used to make the substitute increases the number of things that can take out Garchomp in one hit.

 

[Dane]

Please stop saying Mamoswine is a Garchomp counter. Mamoswine switches in, takes a hit, forces Garchomp out, ONCE. I believe the definition of a counter is it has to be able to switch in with little to no threat to itself. When youre taking 80%+ damage on switch in, he isn't a counter.

And while I generally don't like throwing out random damage tacs, Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes, which all seem to be getting a LOT of use nowadays, increases the chances of Mamoswine being OHKO'd by quite a large amount.

 

[Bologo]

Actually, you should.

Almost everybody with Garchomp on their team uses either Hippowdon or Tyranitar. That's 1 part of the set up. Don't start talking bullshit about using weather to counter them, because weather is bad.

Furthermore, you can assume the Garchomp will only switch in when it gives your opponent an advantage. That means either that your Pokemon has no chance of killing him, or Garchomp can easily kill your Pokemon.

This forces a switch. If the Garchomp user predicts the switch, and Subs, he can easily setup Sword dance before you can start dealing damage to him.

Sandstorm is weather too. Therefore it is bad according to what you said.

Dude, you can seriously assume anything you said with any Subbing pokemon that sets up, except that they don't NEED another pokemon for their strategy. I could just switch in my Nasty Plotting Azelf when I have the advantage, set up a Sub, and set up Nasty Plot before you can start dealing damage to him. I'm really not buying your argument.

Ok, so for instance, what is Garchomp going to do if he gets Taunted? Swords Dance? I don't think so. Taunt goes through subs. Tough luck. Taunt is very common in this metagame, so Garchomp getting off a Swords Dance isn't friggin guaranteed and SHOULD NOT be assumed.

Don't be naive and assume that he's already set up, because you can do that with anything. The only difference between Garchomp and the others is that it gets Sand Veil and they don't. This requires another pokemon to work. Seriously.

 

[Jenigmat]

Please stop saying Mamoswine is a Garchomp counter. Mamoswine switches in, takes a hit, forces Garchomp out, ONCE. I believe the definition of a counter is it has to be able to switch in with little to no threat to itself. When youre taking 80%+ damage on switch in, he isn't a counter.

And while I generally don't like throwing out random damage tacs, Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes, which all seem to be getting a LOT of use nowadays, increases the chances of Mamoswine being OHKO'd by quite a large amount.

Toxic Spikes and Spikes ruin Brightpowder Sub chomp, too. Skarmory can also come in with little to no threat, because for a SubChomp, Outrage is the only thing that can damage Skarmory, doing 36-43% AFTER A SWORDS DANCE. This means that Skarmory can easily take two hits and force out with Whirlwind. Garchomp then has to find an opportunity to switch back in, which as we looked at earlier, is more difficult than you'd imagine. As long as who ever is battling has some sense of prediction, which isn't hard. There, between them, Skarmory and Mamoswine can easily handle any variation of Garchomp. And yea, Mamoswine may take a bunch of damage. It still made it that much harder for Garchomp to switch in, given that Spikes may be up, and Toxic Spikes will be sapping away Garchomp's health.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

@Adamant Torterra: You say that since Garchomp has never been threatening against me, it must have been used badly? That argument works both ways, I could use the same reasoning and say that everyone who's ever played against you with Garchomp is much better than you.

No, you actually can't because everyone but you has had trouble with Garchomp, and they have obviously faced other people who have trouble with Garchomp so...

I'm just saying that it's not hard to change weather back and forth and that I'd like to assume no weather unless there's a reason to assume it.

That is completely wrong. It takes 2 turns to change from Sand storm, one to switch and one to use Rain Dance. It takes 1 turn to turn it back to sandstorm, just switch to your sand streamer. Also, look at the Shoddy battle stats, TTar and Hippo are near the top, so Sandstorm is probaby on about 50% of teams.

And no, I'm not saying that all Mamoswine have CB and Ice Shard.

Actually, they pretty much do, that was the point. They always are banded and have Shard because of chomp. It has nearly the same speed as Heracross, but no one ever uses a ScarfSwine, now do they?

But I am saying that that set counters just about everything Garchomp can do. And if Garchomp subs on the switch, next turn Mamoswine will use Ice Shard and break the sub while Garchomp gets in a hit, not killing Mamoswine.

Actually, you are right on this one. Sub chomp doesn't work when the opponent uses a priority move or is faster. My bad.

Mamoswine can attack before Garchomp can put up another hit. What's the chance that Mamoswine will miss both Ice Shards? Plus the 25% used to make the substitute increases the number of things that can take out Garchomp in one hit.

It doesn't need to miss both, it only needs to miss one, and the odds are like 1/4 because of powder and veil, which is why everyonne loathes chomp.

Garchomp switched in!
Random poke that can't do jack used splash/twave/etc.

Random poke switched out!
Mamoswine switched in!
Chomp uses Sub!

Swine used Ice Shard!
The attack missed!
Chomp use Fire Fang!
Mamo took more than 50%!

Swine used Ice Shard!
Chomp's sub broke!
Chomp use Fire Fang!
Swine fainted!

 

[Dane]

...What about Fire Blast or Fire Fang? You said they can handle any version, yet both get either crippled or obliterated by it, and that's a move on the Chain Chomp section, and it's use should rise even further if it's not already being used due to people thinking Steel Pokemon can counter him.

I don't know where you got SubChomp from, I'm talking about Standard Chain Chomp:
-Swords Dance
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Outrage

 

[Jenigmat]

No, you actually can't because everyone but you has had trouble with Garchomp, and they have obviously faced other people who have trouble with Garchomp so...
Are you saying that every time someone uses Garchomp against you they win? I'm guessing that you've taken down Garchomp before. I'm guessing you've even won against someone with a Garchomp. Now consider. did you use prediction and take it down intelligently? Or did you just use your guaranteed Garchomp counter. I'm guessing you used prediction. I think that's a great way to counter Garchomp every time.

That is completely wrong. It takes 2 turns to change from Sand storm, one to switch and one to use Rain Dance. It takes 1 turn to turn it back to sandstorm, just switch to your sand streamer. Also, look at the Shoddy battle stats, TTar and Hippo are near the top, so Sandstorm is probaby on about 50% of teams.
It also takes 1 turn to make the sand Hail again. Look at the stats, Abomasnow is pretty common too.

Actually, they pretty much do, that was the point. They always are banded and have Shard because of chomp. It has nearly the same speed as Heracross, but no one ever uses a ScarfSwine, now do they?
Maybe, unlike Heracross, Mamoswine has this great thing called a priority move that doesn't require Speed. Mamoswine also is better defensively and can afford to take an extra hit before hitting back with a CB Adamant base 130 attack.

Actually, you are right on this one. Sub chomp doesn't work when the opponent uses a priority move or is faster. My bad.
Again, Subchomp isn't bad. But like every variation of Garchomp, every variation of Lucario and every variation of most sweepers, it has a few weaknesses.

It doesn't need to miss both, it only needs to miss one, and the odds are like 1/4 because of powder and veil, which is why everyonne loathes chomp.
so in about 100 matches with that match up, 75 of them you'll win out. Assuming that people are smart and can use it properly, that means that Anger Point+Sub Primeape (27% chance of activating) is just as devastating as a Subchomp that has a Sub up avoiding the 100% accuracy move used to attack it.

Garchomp switched in!
Random poke that can't do jack used splash/twave/etc.

Random poke switched out!
Mamoswine switched in!
Chomp uses Sub!

Swine used Ice Shard!
The attack missed!
Chomp use Fire Fang!
Mamo took more than 50%!

Swine used Ice Shard!
Chomp's sub broke!
Chomp use Fire Fang!
Swine fainted!

Yes, I'll give you that. 1/4 of the time Mamoswine will lose that match up. Honestly, those are odds I'd bet on. 1/4 is not that big. Given that, say, Salamence gets a free 1.5 boost to defense all the time with no other pokemon, and TTar gets a free 1.5 boost to Special Defense without relying on other pokemon, I'd say that their abilities are about equally good.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

That's the problem; even something that should kill a particular set ever time still loses against it 1/5 of the time or more with bright powder. And, thats assuming you know which set their using when you switch in your "counter", which is only possible if it has already damaged you. Ad if it has damaged oe of your pokemon, you have probably lost half of that pokemons health, assuming it didn't faint. If it did faint, and it faint against multiple sets, you still don't know what kind of Chomp it is.

 

[Jenigmat]

That's the problem; even something that should kill a particular set ever time still loses against it 1/5 of the time or more with bright powder. And, thats assuming you know which set their using when you switch in your "counter", which is only possible if it has already damaged you. Ad if it has damaged oe of your pokemon, you have probably lost half of that pokemons health, assuming it didn't faint. If it did faint, and it faint against multiple sets, you still don't know what kind of Chomp it is.

Did you read what I posted earlier about how it's easy to tell the difference between the various types of Garchomps, the only one doing 50% or more damage being Chain Chomp?

Seriously, all of the arguments appealing to how much Garchomp can do to switchins apply to Tyraniboah too. And TTar has much better Defensive stats.

 

[Blue Harvest]

No, you actually can't because everyone but you has had trouble with Garchomp, and they have obviously faced other people who have trouble with Garchomp so...

I have not had trouble with Garchomp. Just like any other poke with high attack, its all prediction.

 

[Bologo]

That's the problem; even something that should kill a particular set ever time still loses against it 1/5 of the time or more with bright powder. And, thats assuming you know which set their using when you switch in your "counter", which is only possible if it has already damaged you. Ad if it has damaged oe of your pokemon, you have probably lost half of that pokemons health, assuming it didn't faint. If it did faint, and it faint against multiple sets, you still don't know what kind of Chomp it is.

Yeah, but can't Togekiss hax even easier than that? The hax isn't even 1/5 with Togekiss, it's 3/5, which is quite unfair.

Really, against something like ScarfKiss, it can't be reliably countered, because of most of the stuff you just said.