Chomp is overrated. Its possibly the strongest poke in OU, but not uber.
Not like sticking Ice moves all over your team is overcentralizing. You still need to worry about Salamence, Dragonite, everything else ice hits.
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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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Chomp is overrated. Its possibly the strongest poke in OU, but not uber.
Not like sticking Ice moves all over your team is overcentralizing. You still need to worry about Salamence, Dragonite, everything else ice hits.
Here is a log I just saved against someone on Shoddy. He was using Sub/SD/Sand veil Garchomp, but without Bright powder. It shows how often you can miss without Brightpowder and how easy it is for Garchomp to get 3 SD's in, as well as destroying a team.
BTW, please ignore what pokemon I use/Switch into Garchomp. That's not what this log is for.
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BTW, please ignore what pokemon I use/Switch into Garchomp. That's not what this log is for.
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That is a single sample on something that relies on chance. Number crunching gives better results. It's like me posting a log of hitting 10 times in a row through Sand Veil and telling everyone it's not that big of a deal, when the chance of that happening is really low. (around 10%, if my maths aren't failing me)
I don't get a single thing of what you're saying.
mop said:
I don't get a single thing of what you're saying.
Considering that it takes Tyranitar / Hippowdon to set-up Garchomp anyway (considering all this talk about Sand Veil...)... Whats wrong with using Abomasnow + (counter) to counter T-Tar/Hippo + Garchomp ?
Abomasnow has no chance against a T-Tar...
T-Tar has no chance switching in on Abomasnow (Sub / Focus Punch / Wood Hammer / Grass Knot / Brick Break). If Hippowdon doesn't have stone edge, Abomasnow walks all over him (outruns, OHKOs with Blizzard, Sub / Seed / Punch, etc. etc.) Aboma doesn't counter T-Tar, but T-Tar cannot counter Aboma. Aboma solidly counters the Hippo set on Smogon.
Anyway, the point is, everyone here is saying "it takes 2 counters to counter Garchomp cause the first one might miss". However, whats going on if you assume Sand Veil is up... is that there are two pokemon who are working together here. T-Tar and Garchomp. Therefore, it is fair to use 2 counters to counter 2 pokemon.
It does seem that Weather needs to be part of this conversation. Without Sandstorm, Sand Veil does nothing. If you let the opponent have Sandstorm without contesting it at all, you've already given him the advantage on the playing field.
Heaven help me, I'm coming around to Obi's side in the testing out Kyogre in OU argument. I thought Kyogre would be too much for OU, but he'd bring Rain Teams back, and might help suppress Garchomp.
Maybe I'm becoming a better player already :naughty:
Hmm, reading over my words in your quote bubble makes me cringe a bit. I should note that I'm not saying Aboma can counter T-Tar (although it does counter standard Hippowdon), I'm saying that if it takes 1 pokemon to set-up your Garchomp to a point where it takes 2 pokemon to counter him (because of sand veil), then it is unfair to assume that the opponent has to counter your set-up Garchomp when it was indeed helped out by an earlier team member... unless he is given his own help. IE: A hail team.
So you're suggesting everyone use a Hail team? Or one of the other weather moves, which of course can't just be cancelled out by bringing Tyranitar/Hippowdon back in on an obvious switch turn?
Oh, I see. You're suggesting countering one possible uber through the use of a definite uber. Specs Kyogre Water Spout would literally force every team to have a Water Absorber not to get swept. If it 2HKOs Blissey, then it surely does the same to any other water resist in the game. And that's not to say the Kyogre user won't just Thunder instead.
It would bring rain teams back, by virtue of making them the only things ever used. Unless we allow Groudon, too, and by that point we've pretty much just transformed OU into ubers lite. Try switching Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Abomasnow into a Specs Water Spout and tell me how well they survive. This is why Zapdos/Moltres/Articuno needed Drizzle/Drought/Snow Warning, respectively.
Why is it okay for me to assume Tyranitar / Hippowdon on the opponent's team, but not okay to use an Abomasnow or other weather-changer to counter that weather effect?
BTW: as a user of hail vs Rain Dance teams, the advantage of weather is generally to the attack-user, not to the ability user. The attacker can change weather as soon as you switch in, ignoring your boost. IE: Tyranitar switches in, Sandstorm starts up. If you use Rain Dance on that exact same turn, Rain will fall. From there, it will take 2 turns before the opponent's weather comes back. 1 turn to switch out, and another to switch back in.
A good weather user once used this prediction against me and eventually won due to a Swift Swim Kabutops... I forgot who however.
Well I have not read everyone's posts but I am just going to say that you didn't put Blissey on your damage calculation list. I use Blissey as a Garchomp counter. I give 252 ev's in def, and sp.atk so that with Ice Beam, Blissey has a very good chance of OHKOing Garchomp. I calculated it does 335 to 394 damage to Garchomp, and most of the time it switches in one my Forretress, then uses fire fang or fire blast. The next hit will not ohko Blissey. The only problem is if it misses or garchomp used substitute then sets up a swords dance.
Well yeah, but what can Forretress do to Garchomp. I don't think it is wise to let Garchomp Swords Dance in your face, after 3 Swords Dances it can OHKO Forrestess and possibly use substitute in between swords dances, or before. I don't think Garchomp is uber, it is just good sometimes, kind of like Infernape which can really get annoying sometimes.
I don't know if I misunderstood this post, or if you misunderstood mine. I didn't say there was anything wrong with using hail to counter Garchomp at all that I know of.
Did you read the first post, because I didn't put Blissey up as a "counter" because she can't switch in AT ALL. You better hope Chomp is locked into a fire move cause you lose to every other move on Cbchomp. But for arguments sake, lets just see how well Blissey fares. Here's the first important question, are you Bold or Modest
Fire fang to:
Modest 252Def/252SpAtt Blissey 36-42%
Bold 252Def/252SpAtt Blissey 33-38%
If sandstorm is up, you will get 3hko'd defitnetly on Garchomps weakest move if Modest and BARELY have a shot at surviving if your Bold. Lets see how much these Blissey's do to Garchomp
Modest 252 Sp.Att Blissey using Ice beam on 0/0 defenses Garchomp: 103-121%
If Bold:94-110%
So you need Modest and at least 224 EV's just to make sure Chomp gets OHKO'd. And the only scenario that this is even possible is if Garchomp is locked into a fire move. In every single scenario Blissey loses really really hard.
That's why Blissey isn't included in the counters list.
Oh and to Dragontamer: Hail team's would be boat loads cooler if they weren't weak to a Stealth Rock :/
My #1 ladder team only used 3/4 Ice Pokemon (I was still tweeking a few slots). My current hail-team only uses 2 Ice Pokemon, one of them Abomasnow. As I state in my hail guide, Hail teams =/= mono-ice.
EDIT: Starmie can use Blizzard instead of Ice Beam. PorygonZ hits even harder with Nasty Plot Blizzard / Bolt in a hailstorm. I even played around with a successful Blizzard Rhyperior set that demolished Gliscor, Garchomp, and even Hippowdon switch-ins... believe it or not (2-hit KO Hippowdon, in a hailstorm or out, and OHKO on both Gliscor and Garchomp). There are so many pokemon who can benefit from Hail it ain't even funny. Blissey, PorygonZ, Porygon2, Starmie, Dragonite, Slowbro, Slowking, Swampert have seen spots on my evolving Hail Teams with much success due to Blizzard's power over Ice beam. Hell, I'm still looking for other pokemon who benefit.
EDIT2: Lol, and of course, Rhyperior is in that set of pokemon that actually took a team slot in a hailstorm. Seriously, it was the biggest WTF pokemon I've ever used seriously since Defense Curl Blissey.
Wow all this was a real interesting read. I never realized how many good pokemon leaned blizzard. Lol, maybe I'll have to make a thread on how Snow Cloak Mamoswine is broken =D, rofl.
I'm saying that weather should be part of the conversation. Most folks think that Garchomp's biggest problem is Sand Veil. Well, that's only a Problem in a Sandstorm. Why not change the playing field and use one of the other 3 weather effects?
I have doubts about Kyogre in OU myself, I'm just saying I'm starting to see a point to Obi's arguments that he deserves testing, especially in light of the Garchomp complaints. Kyogre would bring back Rain as a Weather Condition, PLUS he does have counters, something folks are claiming Garchomp doesn't have.
I do agree that Drizzle, Drought, and Snow Warning really need to be more common.
Kyogre has no true counters. Its counters are situational at best and depend entirely on Kyogre's set. In this way it is no different then Garchomp, save that it has no 4x weaks, it possesses absurd special defense, a game-breaking ability, and even more innate power than Chompy.
Lol, Ludicolo :-p I don't think Ludicolo likes switching in on a Kyogre Calm Mind / Thunder however.
On yeah, and I guess w/o toxic or Ancientpower, Shedinja totally walls Kyogre as usual.
On yeah, and I guess w/o toxic or Ancientpower, Shedinja totally walls Kyogre as usual.
Too bad Shedinja is countered by the ever so common first turn SR user or Hippowdon (or first turn SR Hippowdon). There's also Toxic Spikes abounding now so that even the Sash versions can't really be safe.
Shedinja theoretically also counters Sub/SD/DClaw/EQ Garchomp, but for some reason Shedinja use hasn't been on the rise...
Specs Ludicolo does counter Kyogre. It's also completely stopped by Skarmory, Heracross, Metagross, and Charizard the very second it starts using Grass Knot.
Banded Mamoswine counters Garchomp in the same way.
garchomp should be banned. guess wat?
a dragon claw from salamence doesn't even kill it 85% average. its should go home and sleep. outrage from garchomp kills sally even when intimidated. and with 102 spd, good luck. so, garchomp is the most powerful of all 600 stats pokes. it make latias and latios look like happineys
a dragon claw from salamence doesn't even kill it 85% average. its should go home and sleep. outrage from garchomp kills sally even when intimidated. and with 102 spd, good luck. so, garchomp is the most powerful of all 600 stats pokes. it make latias and latios look like happineys
Your deductive powers and sentence structure amuse me.
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