Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

[Actaeon]

Hi everyone, I'm really enjoying reading about all your ideas and progress, especially Actaeon's Monotype Teams were really inspiring. I've used the quarantine of the last week to optimize my BellyPass Battle Tower Team, and I've just reached a streak of 208 wins (Level 50 on emulator).

Team-Building

Starting with my original team, I soon realized that there are just too many threatening opposing leads for Smeargle that Grumpig can't quite neutralize enough, so I started to look for a lead with Roar or Whirlwind to have an all-purpose out to different threats, which is more efficient than having to dedicate a moveslot to each case as in Grumpig's case. I ended up going with Kangashkhan, because it is reasonably bulky and fast and learns Icy Wind and Thief (which in combination work as a pseudo Macho Brace Trick) and Roar. In the last moveslot i gave it Foresight to not have to deal with Evasion-boosting stuff.

This worked better, but now the situation I've lost the most battles to was Smeargle having to pass the boosts to Medicham without a sub (which contrary to my previous post needs only 2 early wake-ups, since you have to allow Smeargle to get to Salac range first) and then getting knocked out immediately, or losing to some hax items one the last 2 mons like QC, BP or Focus Band. Since Medicham's Atk stat was a bit of an overkill anyways for its purpose, I started looking for a finisher that gets knocked out by the least amount of moves found in the tower while still being able to one-hit (almost) everything at +6. After some calcing, this surprisingly turned out to be Banette with Shadow Ball, HP Fighting, Screech and Substitute. It KO's everything except Skarmory at +6, which you can still beat pretty reliably by using Screech first, it has a nice type synergy with Smeargle (almost all the moves in the Tower that could KO's it are not really an issure since they are either Ghost moves which the CPU won't use on the pass since Smeargle is still in at that point or STAB Dark-Moves, but I have to Roar out Houndoom anyway because of Early Bird).

Adding Banette helped, but I essentially still lost to the same stuff as before, only with a slightly lower probability. I needed to change something more fundamental, since I was struggling to consistently get to 100 wins at this point. While looking for an alternative Sweeper I realized that Aerodactyl does not need the Salac Boost to outspeed everything while still KOing (almost) everything at +6. This allowed me to run Leftovers on Smeargle, making Smeargles set-up considerably safer, since it can set up 3 subs in addition to the Belly Drum now and it also does not need to get to Salac range, which makes it less riskier too. Aerodactyl then gets in with +6 Atk and a sub up almost guaranteed.

At some point I replaced Foresight on Kangashkhan with Mud Slap, as I felt like Accuracy lowering solves more problems more consistently. This worked so well, that I didn't really need Roar anymore, since in most cases, lowering the Accuracy is the safer option than forcing out the opponent. This kind of defeated the original purpose of using Kangashkhan in the first place, I switched back to Grumpig. It has the additional benefit of learning Flash instead of Mud Slap, which while being less accurate makes Accuracy Lowering less awkward since you really don't want to knock out the opposing lead "accidentally" (same goes for Tricking Macho Brace instead of Icy Wind + Thief).

Final Team

Grumpig @ Macho Brace
Bold
Own Tempo
252HP/236Def/16SpD
- Trick
- Flash
- Taunt
- Odor Sleuth

Essentially the same set as before, with Flash over Skill Swap. It suffers a bit from 4MSS as it would be really nice to be able to run Skill Swap too (which would probably have prevented my loss as well), but in the end I had to make the choice of dropping either Taunt, Odor Sleuth or Skill Swap, and since Flash can handle most things that Skill Swap handles pretty consistently I decided to drop Skill Swap.

Smeargle @ Leftovers
Timid
Own Tempo
88HP/120Def/48 SpD/252Spe
- Spore
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Baton Pass

Same set as before with Leftovers instead of Salac Berry, which as discussed in the Team-Building process really helps with consistently passing a sub. While it might not seem like much, this was probably the change with the biggest impact I did. Running Leftovers over Salac Berry also has the additional benefit of making the team much more feasible to put together on cartridge (while I'm playing on emulator I still try to do the assembling of the team as "legal" as possible in-game).

Aerodactyl @ Lum Berry
Jolly
Rock Head
252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Double-Edge
- Ancient Power
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake

The new sweeper of the team: Aerial Ace is the go-to move against everything that is not insanely bulky or resists it, since it ignores Brightpowder. I have to run Ancient Power over HP Rock, since otherwise Jolteon-1 outspeeds me every time. Earthquake and Double-Edge cover all Pokemon that do not get KO'd by the first two moves (it's also a nice coincidence that Rock Head prevents recoil).

The loss

The opponent led off with Altaria. Against Natural Cure Pokemon, the strategy is to Trick them and then Flash them repeatedly until Grumpig dies (this normally gets in at least 3 Flashes, since none of the Natural Cure Pokemon deals too much damage to Grumpig). Smeargle then sets up a Substitute and Belly Drum on the lowered Accuracy without using Spore, since otherwise the opponent will switch out because of Natural Cure. I was running the streak all evening and got very tired, so I forgot to not use Spore with Smeargle after lowering Altarias accuracy 4 times with Flash. The opponent switched out into Gengar. No problem, i can just put it to sleep again and probably still get off the pass. But it was carrying a Lum Berry and KO'd Smeargle. Aerodactyl was then able to Revenge Kill Gengar but it wasn't enough to handle the rest of the team alone.

I really find the concept of Tricking Macho Brace and capitalizing with Smeargle very interesting. I tried to use the same before, but with either Dragon Dance + Liechi Berry or Tail Glow on Smeargle, and then passing to a very bulky sweeper to ensure it can take a blow on the pass. Belly Drum is a one-trick pony, and I figured it would be nice to pass Speed AND a sub pretty much guaranteed, and be able to decide when to pass, i.e. when I feel that at +3/+3 DD's, I can sweep already and pass with a Substitute earlier than I have to.

For the physical team, I used Armaldo @ Lum Berry since it basically can't be KO'ed due to Battle Armor, except with Hydro Pumps (defensive spread with EQ, Ancientpower, HP[Bug] and either Brick Break or Double Edge, the same EVs as on the mono Bug lead). And for the Special team, physically defensive Jolteon is usable because it doesn't need boosts in Speed (beats the Timid Jolteon anyway) and can be EV'ed to survive most Earthquakes, although it lacks the power to an extent. Or just use a fast Lati@s.

The main problem though, no matter what Smeargle or recipient we choose, is the 'always' free turn before Tricking (I put the 16 leftover Grumpig EVs into Speed, so it still outspeeds the 50 tier before Tricking Macho Brace). This can OHKO with critical hits / QC OHKO, or hax through by full paralyses, sleep, etc. I've also lost against Bonemerang Marowak, which obliterates Smeargle's Substitutes. There just seem to be too many moves that have a chance of ruining the strategy to me.

Will try to think of other ways to make this work, though. For example, either Smeargle or something like Subseed Recoil Breloom (see mono Grass) might be able to sweep ITSELF after the 'Macho Trick', which frees up a slot for a Pokémon that can be used BEFORE Grumpig, ensuring the Trick works as intended against way more opponents. I'm thinking of stuff like Torment / screens / Yawn / Thief or maybe Scary Face, who knows.

 

[Adedede]

Hi everyone!

The current health emergency, combined with my recent graduation, has given me an insane ammount of free time in the last days, so I've started to play my favourite game ever again.

What I'm going to say is well resumed by an interation with GOSCIZOR on my YouTube channel, where he basically told me - in the most polite way possible - that my last PP stall teams are boring as fuck and can make a player go crazy... man, you're totally right, and thank God you haven't seen this:

evil-sent creation

https://pokepast.es/939c0918132fc146

I needed to change something, even because I was gradually losing my willingness to play.
So I saw on this thread trending teams, very similar to Gen 4 ones, with crippling strategies and one or two sweepers in the backpack (this may look similar to what IRIDESCENCE is at the end of the day, but I see it more as a PP-stalling team, since it hasn't lowering-stat moves or statuses or crippling moves at all outside of Torment).
I'm still convinced that a PP-stalling approach is safer for a long run, but I lost a lot of streaks lately just because of dumb mistakes: after months of infinite matches where my attention had always to be on top, a crippling-sweeping team looks like it wins on autopilot to me in recent tests, and last but not least, I'm really enjoying playing with this archetype.

I'm basically referring to Kommo-o's Der Deutsche Wissenschaft and Actaeon's Trick team (the new one, Zam/Skarm/Tios) as my main inspirations.
I loved both and they brought me to build what I'm presenting to y'all.

While I'm writing (with nice flashes of good luck from my side to be honest) this beatiful squad is sitting at

413 WINS

This is

GINGER

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Teambuilding

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Not much to say on teambuilding process.
Since I wanted to try something different from Latias crippling lead, I went for Memento Latios, with Thunder Wave/Recover/Flash and Lum Berry for clear reasons.
It eased the matchup vs. Special attackers a lot, but sadly it wasn't enough to stop set-up sweepers and strong physical threats. In lead position, Latias better natural bulk and Charm are crucial.
This first built featured my Skarmory spread (244 HP / 180 Def / 80 SpDef / 4 Spe) from IRIDESCENCE, with Torment/Rest/Whirlwind/Protect and Chesto Berry. I wanted a recovery move on Skarm, otherwise it wasn't able to check physical threats (and mine hasn't Leftovers, since it is a must-have for Kou).
Moreover, I won't build this team without a phazing move, because I didn't want a Claydol 2 to outstall me after dozens of matches.
And then here we come to what is my today personal contribution: Raikou, the coolest Pokemon on the face of the earth, and surprisingly it's viable too.
In fact, if this monster is set-up at +6/+6, it reaches features that CM Latios can only dream:

+6 0 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 170 HP / 170 SpD Metagross: 221-261 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 170 HP / 170 SpD Registeel: 153-180 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 170 HP / 170+ SpD Lapras: 389-458 (172.1 - 202.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All of this while reaching 173 Spe (Timid with 180 HP Evs) and holding Leftovers (220 HP Evs to reach 193 HP).

So, why didn't I run this tiger in my previous teams? Am I stupid? Yes, but that's not the point.
Sadly it hasn't access to a reliable recovery move, and since its STAB isn't enough - like Dragon is -, Kou doesn't even have room for Protect to capitalize on Leftovers passive recover. For this reasons, it requires extreme team support to effectively work; the opponent must be crippled/statused and Tormented most of the times.

If a team can ensure this kind of support, I think it completely outclasses Latios in sweeper's role.

• 

  

  

Trying Latios was nice, but this team works infinitely better with Latias (shout-outs to Coeur7 for the idea of Latias lead in gen3!).
My spread is sligthly different from what Kommo's using right now, since I don't need that extra Def investment (I mean, I have a Skarmory in my team with a Charm user, I feel pretty ok on that side). The speed benchmark to reach for gen3 Tower is 173, as always.
I've also found myself more comfortable on running Roar on Lati and Sand-Attack on Skarm, because it has way more chances and free turns generated by Torment/Protect to lower foe's Accuracy. To be honest, I've clicked Roar probably twice since now and Flash would have been more productive, I'm completely aware of it, but again, I don't want a Claydol 2 to outstall me after dozens of matches.

Physical threats were definitely checked (Charm>>>Memento), and the special ones weren't an issue at all, it's enough to switch into Blis... ok, this team was really weak on that side (at least Memento helped a bit there).
The solution was simple and straightforward: MAX SPDEF.
Skarm passed from this (244 HP / 180+ Def / 80 SpD / 4 Spe ) to this (252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe Bold, hi Actaeon ), gaining a lot of special bulk and moving a lot of 2HKOs into 3HKOs, easily handleable now by Rest/Protect/Torment, also factoring that foe is almost always Paralyzed and Tormented.

Same for Raikou: it needs 220 HP EVs for Leftovers number and 180+ Spe Evs for 173 benchmark, the rest is put into SpDef (108 EVs), also avoiding the OHKO from Espeon 4 if it CH with Psychic.
By the way, this is its most impressive feat:

252+ SpA Salamence7 Dragon Claw vs. +1 220 HP / 108 SpD Raikou: 40-48 (20.7 - 24.8%)

Salamence 7 is the Modest one and it may be really troublesome for crippling Latias lead (as Kommo-o can confirm), but with this spread Raikou can safely set-up on it after just one Calm Mind, which is great.


So, this is my new team: it works, it's fresh, has good Raikou percentage in it.

​

​

GINGER

Heartless (Latias) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 4 Def / 44 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Roar
- Charm
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

Equilibrio (Skarmory) (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Rest
- Sand Attack
- Torment

Gorgeous (Raikou) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 108 SpD / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt

​

​

Threatlist

To be completely honest, almost every special attacker can break through this team with an insane ammount of hax on its side, but it's really really unlikely to happen (and hasn't happened yet).
Featuring a max SpD Skarmory, GINGER doesn't worry about Rhydon/Lapras/Walrein..., which is great.
Moreover, Skarm is the direct switch on turn 1 vs. foes that may carry Explosion (hi again, Actaeon ). Sadly, my lead without Protect can't scout foes' set.

Now, here comes the (light) trouble:

• CLEAR BODY: while it is an issue on paper, Raikou can set up on almost every foe with this ability, if it is paralyzed and Tormented. Metagross is completely eaten alive by Skarm; Regice is probably the most dangerous one since it has the coverage to hit super-effectively my crippling core, but Raikou can set-up on it too after a Torment.​

• POKEMONs that are not OHKOed by +6 SpA Raikou AND hold Quick Claw AND can OHKO me with a CH if QC triggers: Once Raikou is set-up, just a few threats can tank a hit, and a very few ones hold QC, can break my Sub at +6 SpDef and can OHKO back with a QC CH. I'm talking about Quagsire 3, Steelix 3/4, and IT, my nemesis, my nightmare, WHISCASH 4 (I noticed I wrote "2" in every post talking about it, my bad. Poor Whiscash 2, it didn't hurt nobody). My gameplan is to switch back into Skarmory when one of those potential sets is revealed after an HP Ice, so they are the main reason why I usually prefer to keep Skarmory alive, even if often sacking it is needed/ would make the match way faster.​

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Exportable

Pokepaste version: https://pokepast.es/e9fa91ddc2607116

I'll write something about gameplans and strategies vs. specific foes soon, and I'll also add videos of this team in action!

Bonus

EDIT: Changed Latias set from 252 HP / 28 Def / 4 SpD / 224 Spe to 236 HP / 4 Def / 44 SpD / 224 Spe because of this (it was max roll before, but has happened to me today):

252+ SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 236 HP / 44 SpD Latias on a critical hit: 156-184 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Luke Warm]

Hey all, I too am stuck inside, so decided to take a look at the battle arena.

Latios and Latias do fantastically well in the arena, because of their great stats and coverage (the judges in the arena favour super effective moves). Also, Latios learns memento so I tried to construct a good team of the form Latios + Setup Sweeper + Latias.

The idea would be to try to sweep with Latios, but if something comes up which Latios can't beat, to use memento and then set up with the second pokemon. Initially I tried CM/Rest/Surf/Bite Suicune and Belly Drum/Rest/Return/Shadow Ball Snorlax in the setup sweeper role, but they didn't seem to have good enough coverage. Here is what I ended up with.

The Lati Sandwich Team

Latios @ Brightpowder
Modest
76HP/252Sp.Atk/180 Speed
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Memento

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Adamant
252HP/252Atk/4Speed
Return
Curse
Earthquake
Shadow Ball

Latias @ Lum Berry
Modest
100HP / 76 Def / 152 Sp.Atk / 180 Speed
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Dive

Usage of the team is mostly straightforward. With Latias, just try to sweep, but use memento if Espeon, Scizor or Snorlax show up. Snorlax is proud to feature in a team with 'sandwich' in its name! If safe (e.g. memento has been used), Snorlax can try to curse, but alternatively he can just sweep. Against Wobbuffet, curse 3 times - you will tie Mind and Body but win speed. Use Thick Fat on Snorlax since toxic isn't really a threat in the Arena. Snorlax might want to be female to avoid attract from Jynx/Blissey but in tests he was male. Dive allows Latias to troll and sometimes win by Judge decision in fights she should lose, including against Metagross, and even Greta's Shedinja sometimes. It's not completely reliable though, particularly since, with Latias being the last pokemon, you need to win the judging, not merely tie it.

180 Speed EVs lets Lati@s outspeed neutral base 100 pokemon. Given Snorlax's high base HP, it may be better to change Snorlax's spread to have more defense EVs, but I'm not sure - most of my losses in tests seem to involve specially-based pokemon anyhow. Given Latias' superior bulk I thought she might do better with a slightly bulkier spread, so I gave her one. It's fairly arbitrary though. She has a 69% chance of OHKOing 0/0 Heracross with Psychic.

In terms of a threatlist for this team, a special mention should go to Jynx, who has both ice type moves and annoying things like lovely kiss which can cause Snorlax to lose the judging. Umbreon, Lapras, Starmie, Aggron, Metagross and (surprisingly) Gardevoir also deserve a mention. See the testing tab below for a list of teams I lost against in tests.

To find out how well the team did, I made 10 attempts at the arena on an emulator, starting from a save state at 21 wins because the first 3 rounds are very easy. All pokemon used in testing have perfect IVs. The team was exactly the same (including order and items) every round. But one could probably increase the success rate by moving Snorlax to last place and giving him/her a persim berry in round 4 (Greta Silver). The results of testing are below (caveat: a sample size of 10 is rather small, so this is just a ballpark).

Test Results

Best Streak: 144 wins
Median Streak: 61 wins
Number of times Gold Symbol achieved: 5/10
Number of times 100+ wins achieved: 4/10

TEST 1: 106 wins. Lost to gardevoir + slowbro + alakazam. All had ice type moves, gardevoir crit snorlax on curse setup, and alakazam crit lapras with ice punch.

TEST 2: 27 wins. Greta's Umbreon got past Snorlax and Shedinja beat Latias.

TEST 3: 39 wins. Lost to Shuckle + Heracross + ?
(repeated misses due to Heracross's brightpowder)

TEST 4: 45 wins. Lost to Electrode (turn 1 explosion) + Dodrio 4 + Clefable.
Human error - should have cursed with Snorlax.

TEST 5: 144 wins. Lost to xatu + latias + metagross.
Metagross beat Snorlax and then got a QC explosion off to tie the match.

TEST 6: 123 wins
Lost to Jynx + Sneasel + ?

TEST 7: 32 wins
Lost to Tauros + Explosion Glalie + Granbull
(probably could have won but for human error. Spammed dive with Latias and ended up tying in the judging.)

TEST 8: 76 wins
Lost to zapdos + metagross + starmie.
(Again human error, similar to test 7.)

Test 9: 41 wins
Lost to something + lapras + glalie
Would have been OK but Lapras got a crit vs Snorlax.

Test 10: 121 wins
Lost to Kangaskhan + Lanturn + Snorlax
Lanturn's confuse ray was the main factor here.

Finally, I'd like to mention some Arena-Specific sets I tried out. Most of them didn't do that well in tests, with the exception of Fake Out Ludicolo. I really like both the set and Ludicolo in general, and hope to build a team around it soon.

DT + Rest Regice

Regice @ Chesto Berry
Calm
252 HP / 252 Def
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Double Team
Rest

The idea here was to use double team, hit the opposing pokemon supereffectively (reasonably doable with bolt beam), and then proceed to win the judging against the opponent's pokemon because they can't hit you. Unfortunately setting up in the first round often results in a tie, and even if successful, the opponent's 2nd pokemon still has a 75% chance of hitting you.

Spore Smeargle

Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Timid
252 HP / 252 Speed
Endure
Endeavour
Spore
Flamethrower

The idea here was to endure, thus getting to 1hp and activating salac berry. Then sweep using spore + endeavour + flamethrower. Unfortunately this is very vulnerable to status attacks, and the opposing pokemon tend to wake up too early. I also tried Dragon Dance + Spore + Frustration + Dive and this didn't do well, again because the opponents wake up too early and smeargle's stats, except for speed, are very low.

Reversal Heracross

Heracross @ Salac Berry
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4HP
Megahorn
Reversal
Endure
Rock Slide

Again, this set is vulnerable to status and doesn't consistently manage to set up. Also missing with megahorn is not good in the arena because it loses skill points.

Fake Out Ludicolo

Ludicolo @ Lum Berry
Timid
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 SpAtk
Fake Out
Protect
Dive
Ice Beam

In tests, this Ludicolo usually beat the first opposing pokemon and tied with the second. The idea is to use fake out to make the opposing pokemon lose a turn. Then, if Ludicolo is faster, use protect, then dive. Otherwise, use dive. Provided the opponent doesn't have leftovers, it will probably win on mind, but lose on skill and body. For the second pokemon, usually the best thing is to spam dive. Ice beam is surprisingly powerful given that it is non-STAB and has almost no Sp.Atk evs. He does lose to things like crobat/dodrio though.

As always, if anybody else has comments on this team or ideas on the Arena in general, I'd love to hear them!

 

[Purple Kecleon]

As always, if anybody else has comments on this team or ideas on the Arena in general, I'd love to hear them!

I don't have anything super insightful to say, but the same 3 pokemon were used in a YouTube video posted by a fellow Smogon user Fatum, only he switched the order of the Latis and used Self-Destruct on Snorlax (which I really like the idea of in the Arena, kind of similar to Memento) The video is really low quality but just thought you might be interested in checking it out.

 

[Luke Warm]

Hi everyone!

This has certainly got the cool factor. Charm Latias as a lead seems to me more reliable than anything with trick due to being less vulnerable to hax on turn 1. (That being said, comparing the win probabilities for these types of teams is very hard, since the probability of a loss is small and therefore hard to estimate accurately via simulations).

Any reason for 30 SpA / 30 Spe on Latias (is this just so you can RNG it in-game)?

Is it 'heartless' because gingers allegedly have no souls? Latias' pokedex entry says she understands the emotions of people, so I don't think she'd like that lol.

I haven't thought about it carefully, but you could try HP Grass rather than HP ice on Raikou. This would humiliate your beloved Whiscash (and Swampert) at the cost of Flygon/Nidoqueen/Nidoking maybe being an issue. Thankfully Zapdos doesn't have lightningrod this gen.

[Edit: Assuming HP Grass has 70 base power,
+6 0 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 142-168 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+6 0 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 136-160 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 150-177 (79.7 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So probably HP Ice is better overall, particularly since Nidoking 1 has QC+Horn Drill so can troll just as much as Whiscash 4 :( ]

the same 3 pokemon were used in a YouTube video posted by a fellow Smogon user Fatum

Thanks for this, I wasn't aware of Fatum's video. Selfdestruct is an interesting idea which I had briefly considered, but I am not 100% sure whether it's legal in gen 3. Serebii doesn't think so, but it appears in the Smogon sets. Googling seems to suggest you can somehow get it via XD, but I am not familiar with that game. Without any real evidence, I suspect that memento is the best way to go (as opposed to having calm mind / charm). Otherwise you risk Scizor/Snorlax/Espeon being able to set up and sweep the whole team. But I could be wrong here.

 

[Adedede]

Any reason for 30 SpA / 30 Spe on Latias (is this just so you can RNG it in-game)?

Yeah, my Shiny Latias was RNG'd with these IVs, and the calcs are the same compared to a flawless one at Lv.50

Is it 'heartless' because gingers allegedly have no souls? Latias' pokedex entry says she understands the emotions of people, so I don't think she'd like that lol

This team was built with some old Kanye/RnB vibes around, and I joked about Latias description as "empathy Pokemon".
GINGER is an homage to BROCKHAMPTON's last album and it also sums up pretty well the chromatic aspect of the team.

To be more accurate, here are the nicks

BEST ONE:

Moreover, it made me smile that (in the recent interview I posted) BROCKHAMPTON say that GINGER is their favourite album, while IRIDESCENCE is the last one (my two best teams right now use these 2 albums as nicks and I abandoned the "last" passing to the "favourite").
They like Raikou too, confirmed.

I haven't thought about it carefully, but you could try HP Grass rather than HP ice on Raikou

Moving to something serious, I thought about it.
Main problem of Grass over Ice is Lati@s: as I wrote, SpAttackers are really tough to face and with a bit of hax they can pass through Latias and Skarmory (especially if packing BoltBeam/DC), so if opponent lead is Lati@s the matchup would be too hard. Moreover, if Lati@s carries Calm Mind things may even be worse.

+6 0 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +6 170 HP / 170 SpD Latias: 22-26 (12.5 - 14.7%) -- possible 7HKO



This also means that Lati@s can show up after my set-up on another lead and break my Sub with ease if it's Physical set; while if I run HP Ice this is the calc vs. the bulkiest Lati@s that carries Earthquake:

+6 0 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 190-224 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


All of these problems are huge compared to Whiscash 4 (I'm waiting for it to end another streak at around 700 Wins again, after these words).
About the Nidoking you mentioned, it would not be a big issue at all even with HP Grass since it would still be completely walled by Skarm (but I must keep it alive then), while the special set with Horn Drill doesn't hold Quick Claw but Leppa Berry (thanks, GameFreak).

Lastly, I had almost killed for that Shiny Colosseum 70 BP HP Ice 31/10/30/31/31/31 Raikou, the friend who RNG'd it will murder me (with good reasons) if I ask him an HP grass one now

 

[Adedede]

Today Gen3 Battle Tower's history's going to be rewritten (Kommo-o, grats again man), and not by what will be contained in this post.

Btw, I want to share with y'all a radical change in my approach. I started playing on Emu a few days ago, transferring my data from cartridge to PC.
This helps A LOT since recent and most effective strategies requires long stalling or set-up processes, so playing on Emu drastically eases it for a mere question of time.
Moreover, and that's the aspect that brought me on PC the most, it's way easier to stream and record battles (I've done settings you can't even imagine to record - quite badly - my previous short videos from retail).


The result is what I'm posting, a video of a live streak of 7 fights (inclufing Boss Fight) with GINGER, that today has reached 595 Wins!
In this video I directly record my PC screen at normal speed, this is the way I approach every battle (I know I barely check spreadsheet, but hey, I know almost every set and I did math before starting this streak).
My wish is to upload more contents like this (even because in more threathening fights my gameplans and live calcs may be more interesting)

 

[Kommo-o]

Well, Adedede basically gave a big spoiler, but since I shared it on the Discord early, I am glad to announce that Der Deutsche Wissenschaft has officially surpassed the World Record with 1106 wins on Battle Tower Lv.50 Singles.

1106 Wins Picture Proof

It has been a wild ride where the team had to go through difficult moments including a time where I got stuck with Claydol 2 for an hour until a struggling +6 Registeel was able to break through it and the rest of the AI's team, that one time where Zapdos 1 catched Registeel on a random Thunderbolt para and critted twice until Gyarados came to the rescue thanks to two consecutive para turns where I swept with a +2 Gyarados and many other situations. It's worth mentioning that I've also done some small experimentation with Flash and it's fair to say that it has its uses which helps against foes that Latias cannot Mud Slap like Gengar, Charizard or Flygon. The 70% accuracy is a let down, but Recover kind of makes up with it. With the record on my hands, I think it's fair to try some experimentation with Flash and see how different it would let me handle threats to prepare a set-up.

With all things said, I want to give a special thanks to my friends on this space. Adedede you're an awesome person! Beating your record is just the start of many other things to come and I am honored on having a respectful rivalry between us and how our discussions ended up generating a lot of interest in Gen 3 recently. Actaeon keep posting your Mono challenge teams! They are very interesting and you're pretty much sparking some interesting ideas others can follow up. Huge shout-out to Thomaz for that beautiful Gen 3 custom spreadsheet, has been crucial to the success of this team alongside turskain's calculator for Gen 3. You're gonna get bored from me tagging you, but massive thanks for that Latias set Coeur7, I wouldn't had been motivated to try this team without our insightful discussions on the Discord.

Special thanks to my friends on the Battle Tree Discord for their support! With that being said, I will take a break in Gen III to resume my pending streak on Gen 7 and Golden Blissey whenever it is possible for you, I'd like to see my streak updated. Thanks in advance!

 

[Taylor]

People do not know how fortunate it is to have access to more than Choice Band, Leftovers and Lum Berry. I don't have a Gold symbol for every facility and so that means no Starf Berry for me, much less the better stat raising berries such as Salac Berry. I am learning I have to breed some speed-specific team members to actually get far in the tower.

I am relying on Choice Band Salamence when I know deep down I should hatch one with Dragon Dance. Agility Gross is strong but I wasn't paying attention to speed and thus one Agility isn't enough and thus costs me the win. But I have to remember some old tricks and train hard to get the results I want which even then I may not achieve. This game and its community has changed a lot since we played back 10+years ago and all these new manipulations and discoveries lead to more ways of finding and capturing good Latios/Raikou. RNG abuse wasn't as well-thought of back then.

edit: nice reads and grats kommo

 

[Kommo-o]

People do not know how fortunate it is to have access to more than Choice Band, Leftovers and Lum Berry. I don't have a Gold symbol for every facility and so that means no Starf Berry for me, much less the better stat raising berries such as Salac Berry. I am learning I have to breed some speed-specific team members to actually get far in the tower.

I am relying on Choice Band Salamence when I know deep down I should hatch one with Dragon Dance. Agility Gross is strong but I wasn't paying attention to speed and thus one Agility isn't enough and thus costs me the win. But I have to remember some old tricks and train hard to get the results I want which even then I may not achieve. This game and its community has changed a lot since we played back 10+years ago and all these new manipulations and discoveries lead to more ways of finding and capturing good Latios/Raikou. RNG abuse wasn't as well-thought of back then.

edit: nice reads and grats kommo

Choice Band Salamence is a very good mon for Tower purposes. As a matter of fact it even makes Aerial Ace even more viable than Hidden Power Flynig since the immediate boost allows it to grab OHKOs it wouldn't gain on a DD set and with it's no miss status, it is guaranteed to bypass those cursed Bright Powder and evasion mons. I wouldn't discard it completely towards Dragon Dance since it has its uses.

If you've been following the teams posted in here, you'll find that getting berries like Salac or Liechi are not really a necessity unless you are using a very specific Baton Pass team. Getting your hands on Pokemon outside Emerald like Suicune or Raikou helps a lot but it's not a necessary thing either. I've won the record with Latias / Steelix / Gyarados which are team members obtainable in-game.

If you want to think on good Pokemons to use on specific Battle Tower runs, we made an initial tierlist on this post, although thanks to Adedede and Actaeon's crazy ideas, we will probably have to update it. Feel free to ask for suggestions and thank you very much for your message!

 

[Adedede]

I've uploaded the run that made me reach my previous Lv.50 record (651) with GINGER, and now I've decided to come back to
to what is, in my eyes, the team closest to perfection.

P.S.: Everybody says "Hi, fuck you" to Whiscash 4 at minute 10:53, were I was Skarm-less and I was greedy in the end trying to set-up. On the following Shuckle, I opened with TB even if I could have subbed because if it was set 2 and it started with Sandstorm, I would have lost, while Toxic on turn 1 would not have been an issue since TB 2HKOs.

Now it's time for IRIDESCE 3.0!


My current streak using GINGER has given me some insightful suggestion about how IRIDESCENCE could improve:

• Skarmory needs more SpDef investment, because it is has to tank at least a hit from Mixed Gross and Walrein 4 / Whiscash 4 (if I look to concerned about it, just watch the video...)
• I'm completely in love with Thunder Wave support. Most of all, it lets Latios outspeed every Dragon Dancers (foe's teams with 2 or 3 DD users were threatening) even if they are at +6 Spe, which is an awesome feat and allows Tios to stall them thanks to Torment. I've replaced Hail on Blissey with Thunder Wave, but this leaves me weak to DT Registeel if it appears as the last foe, and that brings us to Latios;
• I need want a flawless Latios, not a 30 SpA/30 Spe one; that extra SpA point gives an offensive jump even at +6 on a some threats (and I must keep 172 HP / 108 Def / 220 Spe EVs for defensive reasons/speed benchmark already explained)

I was talking about it to my friend a few days ago (guess he's bored too), and he sent me this beautiful flawless (Timid 31/14/31/31/31/31) creature this morning (<3):

Brand new Latios!

So, this is it:

BLEACH (Skarmory) (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Torment

TONYA (Blissey) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 28 SpD / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave

NO HALO (Latios) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 172 HP / 108 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 14 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Dragon Claw


Quick calcs to show improvements:

252+ SpA Whiscash4 Surf vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Skarmory on a critical hit: 145-171 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Whiscash4 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Skarmory: 48-57 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+6 4 SpA Latios Dragon Claw vs. 168 HP / 168 SpD Registeel 4/5: 71-84 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



From now, 651W, I'll officially start to use IRIDESCENCE 3.0 (!)

 

[wtset]

Here to share my new team for the Battle Tower. While I "only" got to 157 wins with it, I still want to share it, because I think the idea is pretty new and unique.

Introduction

While searching for new things to try in the tower, I remembered a certain gimmicky strategy from my Gen 5 NU days that was considered so broken that it was eventually banned: Prankster + Assist. For those of you that don't know what Assist does:
"A random move among those known by the user's party members is selected for use. Does not select Assist, Counter, Covet, Destiny Bond, Detect, Endure, Focus Punch, Follow Me, Helping Hand, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Coat, Mirror Move, Protect, Sketch, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Struggle, Thief, or Trick."
The strategy was to use Prankster Liepard with Assist and fill the rest of the team with moves that can't be called by Assist, except Whirlwind. This ensures that Assist will always call Whirlwind, which together with Prankster gives you access to priority phazing. As soon as you got up Stealth Rock, you could just Whirlwind the opposing team around until only one pokemon is left and then proceed to Destiny Bond it.
Now in Gen 3, neither Prankster nor Stealth Rocks exist. The absence of Prankster is not too bad, since Persian gets Assist as an Egg move and Base 115 outspeeds everything in the tower (except Jolteon-1) when fully invested, which is almost as good as priority. The first idea was to just replace Stealth Rocks with Spikes, but then I realized that you can't actually run Spikes on your own team, since otherwise Assist will pick it (the competitive singles teams circumvented this by relying on the opponent to have a hazard setter and then copying it with Ditto, which isn't really feasible in the Battle Tower). So I looked for other moves that would be cool to copy with Assist, which led me to Spore. Persian with Spore is surprisingly strong, a perfect-accuracy sleep move coming from 183 Speed beats about 95% of the facility just by itself. Now I needed to fill the rest of team with moves that cannot be copied by Assist and Spore, which made the team almost trivial to build: Since I needed to run Spore (and for some reason Focus Punch cannot be called by Assist), Breloom was the perfect candidate for the second spot. For the last spot I chose Gengar, because it learns the best of the other moves on the list, while also having nice stats and immunities.

Team

Breloom @ Salac Berry
Adamant
Effect Spore
252 Atk, 252 Spe
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Endure
- Protect

• Use Spore against everything that is either slower or can't kill you in one hit and use Endure and then Spore against the rest.
• Full speed investment allows it to outspeed everything after the Salac Boost.
• Its job is to either get off one Focus Punch or burn through a Lum/Chesto Berry, but most of the time it does much more than that (in about 30% of battles Breloom just sweeps the whole team alone).
• Effect Spore is actually a hindrance, as the team is really bad at handling poisoned or paralyzed foes.
• Protect can sometimes be used to scout the set, but you have to be wary of the interaction with Endure.
• Focus Punch hits like a truck, even stuff that resists is gets 2hkod for the most part.
• The high damage output prevents most setup from happening by the sheer amount of pressure it puts on.

Persian @ Leftovers
Jolly
Limber
252 Atk, 252 Spe
- Assist
- Substitute
- Return
- Shadow Ball

• The star of the team, beats 95% of the facility by itself (this percentage goes even higher if items are removed)
• Return hits surprisingly hard, 3hkos most things if it's unresisted
• Against something without an item (or with a non-threatening one like Shell Bell, Focus Band or Leftovers) this thing will always win with a Sub up at the end, which then allows it to play riskier against the next mon and even take on stuff with threatening items (Lum and Chesto Berry are no problem at all if you start behind a Sub and Brightpowder and Quick Claw get much less threatening)
• Its lack of bulk is actually a good thing: Since most opposing Pokemon have a move that can one-shot it, they will go for that instead of set-up moves that could prove problematic.
• Iron Tail might be the better choice than Shadow Ball in the long run because of the defense drops, but I got too frustrated by the misses.
• If Persian got only one single move that boosts his offenses, this team would be much stronger, but sadly it does not.
• I tried using Nightmare for consistent Damage output, but the amount of Sleep turns required for it to work is just to big and in the end, Return and Shadow Ball are almost always faster at reducing HP, even against Steel Types.

Gengar @ no item
Timid
Levitate
252 HP, 176 SpD, 82 Spe
- Thief
- Destiny Bond
- Counter
- Snatch

• This is here to solve all the problems Breloom and Persian can't handle.
• The EVs are specifically designed to check all Early Bird / Insomnia mons, which are otherwise too big of a threat. It outspeeds them all, lives at least one hit and can then proceed to Destiny Bond them.
• Thief is probably the most important move on its set and Gengars main purpose, as Persian is really really happy about removed items.
• Destiny Bond is also a nice panic button if things go wrong somewhere.
• If it can kill something with Counter, the game is basically won, but that doesn't happen too often.
• Snatch works as a pseudo-Taunt. I mostly use it to prevent set-up moves and resting (there was even one game where I stole 6 Calm Mind and then proceeded to sweep with Thief).
• It's nice defensive immunity synergy with Persian allows some switching around: Against many opponent if I have Persian in and realize they're carrying a threatening item, I can hard-switch to Gengar, steal the item and then switch back to Persian.

Video

Here's a streak of seven battles I recorded, with Anabel at the end. Watching the video will probably explain the strategy better than my words. (In the first battle I play a bit awkwardly against the Medicham, but after I saw Calm Mind I stopped thinking since I knew it was a non-threatening set).

Loss

The first Pokemon sent out by the opponent was Suicune. After missing Spore with Breloom and geting KO'd by Ice Beam in return, I knew I was facing the Brightpowder set. Now I had three options:

1. Bring in Gengar, steal the Brightpowder and then sack Gengar: this gives Persian a free "set-up" where it will most probably end up at almost full health and behind a sub to face the two remaining Pokemon alone.
2. Bring in Gengar, steal the Brightpowder and then switch to Persian: Persian can take any hit from Suicune and still beat it with a sub intact, but it will be at low health in the end. Gengar would still be alive in the back though.
3. Bring in Persian, and hope to not get haxed by Brightpowder in crucial turns. This has a pretty high probability of working, but after the miss from Breloom, I was too scared. In hindsight, this option might have saved me the game with some luck.

I chose option 2, which then backfired, since the second mon was Double Team Leftovers Regirock, one of the only mons Persian can't beat from behind a Sub, which forced me to switch in Gengar and kill it with Destiny Bond. The last pokemon was then Lum Berry Latios, which Persian could have beaten from Full Health, but since it already took an unprotected hit from Suicune, it got ko'd.

 

[Adedede]

Here to share my new team for the Battle Tower. While I "only" got to 157 wins with it, I still want to share it, because I think the idea is pretty new and unique.

Wow, that's such a unique and original strategy.


I've immediately started to theorymon about it, and there are a few ideas I want to share:

• On Persian, it's better to run 8 HP IVs and 0 EVs (129 HP) since this lets it reach a Leftovers number (which optimizes a lot your strategy, for example letting you Sub 5 times in a row instead of 4). The loss of bulk is not that important, since Persian is really frail even with 31 IVs, while that extra Substitute/optimized recovery it's a big boost. Next Leftovers number is 145 HP, which requires you to run this spread: 28 HP / 228 Atk / 252 Spe . Without any calc, I don't think it's a good idea to lower Persian Atk, mostly because this increased bulk seems worthless;
• The pool of Assist users is really bad and Persian is the only one viable imho. Sadly, none of them have access to good set-up moves (n)or BST to support it (and they will be stuck then to 1 attacking move, since Assist/Substitute/Set-up would be mandatory). Persian is the only one with a usable Speed stat, it can also run mono-attack and Double-Team, but that looks a bit subpar to me on paper;
• Breloom in my opinion is the second best Spore user available: first one is Smeargle. It can learn every not-Assistable move, of course, and sits at a nicer speed-tier than Loom. A set with Salac Berry and Destiny Bond/Protect/Endure/Spore can lead way better than Breloom: it still has Spore and can scout with Protect, but thanks to Salac Boost after Endure, Destiny Bond can also reliably take care of Houndoom, which leaves room for Gengar to run more Speed, reaching that blessed 173 speedtier. Of course, the offensive presence of Focus Punch is just a dream for Smeargle, but I think that overall it may be a better fit;
• Gengar is indeed a needed member for Speed and Types synergy. Protect can be considered, but I don't know how useful Snatch/Counter were in your run. Moreover, with Gengar sitting at 173, it can also outspeed and Destiny Bond Espeon, which is otherwise a really dangerous threat since it has Synchronize - and right now it outspeeds your Gengar spread;
• (With Smeargle, a team with two Destiny Bonders and a Normal Type here to capitalize on foe's ravaged team makes me feel nostalgia).

I've still some maths to do on Persian attacking moves, those were just some random thoughts.
When someone uses a team (especially a particular one like yours) for hundreds of games, nobody knows its mechanics and threats better than him, so I'm curious to know what you think about my considerations!

EDIT: for example, this Smeargle spread (76 HP / 188 SpD / 244+ Spe) lets it sit at 138 Spe (outspeeding all of the uninvested 100 BST, all of Lati@s sets, Gardevoir, Suicune 1,3,4, Jolly Breloom and Adamant Heracross etc...), while also letting it survive Psychic from Modest max SpA Alakazam (and of course all of the "weaker" Special attacks):

252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 76 HP / 188 SpD Smeargle: 118-139 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[wtset]

Wow, that's such a unique and original strategy.


I've immediately started to theorymon about it, and there are a few ideas I want to share:

• On Persian, it's better to run 8 HP IVs and 0 EVs (129 HP) since this lets it reach a Leftovers number (which optimizes a lot your strategy, for example letting you Sub 5 times in a row instead of 4). The loss of bulk is not that important, since Persian is really frail even with 31 IVs, while that extra Substitute/optimized recovery it's a big boost;
• The pool of Assist users is really bad and Persian is the only one viable imho. Sadly, none of them have access to good set-up moves (n)or BST to support it (and they will be stuck then to 1 attacking move, since Assist/Substitute/Set-up would be mandatory). Persian is the only one with a usable Speed stat, it can also run mono-attack and Double-Team, but that looks a bit subpar to me on paper;
• Breloom in my opinion is the second best Spore user available: first one is Smeargle. It can learn every not-Assistable move, of course, and sits at a nicer speed-tier than Loom. A set with Salac Berry and Destiny Bond/Protect/Endure/Spore can lead way better than Breloom: it still has Spore and can scout with Protect, but thanks to Salac Boost after Endure, Destiny Bond can also reliably take care of Houndoom, which leaves room for Gengar to run more Speed, reaching that blessed 173 speedtier. Of course, the offensive presence of Focus Punch is just a dream for Smeargle, but I think that overall it may be a better fit;
• Gengar is indeed a needed member for Speed and Types synergy. Protect can be considered, but I don't know how much useful Snatch/Counter were in your run. Moreover, with Gengar sitting at 173, it can also outspeed and Destiny Bond Espeon, which is otherwise a really dangerous threat since it has Synchronize - and right now it outspeeds your Gengar spread.
• (With Smeargle, a team with two Destiny Bonders and a Normal Type here to capitalize on foe's ravaged team makes me feel nostalgia).

I've still some maths to do on Persian attacking moves, those were just some random thoughts.
When someone uses a team (especially a particular one like yours) for hundreds of games, nobody knows its mechanics and threats better than him, so I'm curious to know what you think about my considerations!

Thanks for the kind words! My thoughts:

• The IV thing on Persian definitely makes sense, I didn't think about that.
• If I had to run a mono-attacking Persian it would probably be with Iron Tail. It might work, but I can definitely imagine running into PP issues, considering the lower base power and accuracy.
• Smeargle is definitely worth a consideration. The main advantage Breloom has is that it can really capitalize on the free turns you get from sleeping opponents (with your suggested set for Smeargle you will be just kind of stuck after putting something to sleep, since switching in Persian or Gengar might be to risky). An idea I could imagine working is running Whirlwind on Smeargle, which in the best case lets you put the whole team of the opponent to Sleep with Smeargle alone. Assist would then always randomly pick between Spore and Whirlwind, which shouldn't really be a problem, since both don't let the opponent do anything.
• Synchronize isn't really a problem since it doesn't work on sleep (I assume this is what you meant), but I definitely see the benefits of running a faster Gengar.

 

[Adedede]

An idea I could imagine working is running Whirlwind on Smeargle

You're right about Breloom capitilizing on free turns. WW can be really good, since it also prevents DT spammers to PP-stall Persian in bad scenarios.

EDIT: for example, this Smeargle spread (76 HP / 188 SpD / 244+ Spe) lets it sit at 138 Spe (outspeeding all of the uninvested 100 BST, all of Lati@s sets, Gardevoir, Suicune 1,3,4, Jolly Breloom and Adamant Heracross etc...), while also letting it survive Psychic from Modest max SpA Alakazam (and of course all of the "weaker" Special attacks):

252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 76 HP / 188 SpD Smeargle: 118-139 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(With given spread, Smeargle can also abuse Mirror Coat!)

Synchronize isn't really a problem since it doesn't work on sleep (I assume this is what you meant), but I definitely see the benefits of running a faster Gengar.

Everyday one can learn something new (btw quite embarrassing that I have similar gaps on my gen's mechanics)

 

[wtset]

I just realized that running WW makes Persian much weaker if there is only one pokemon remaining for the opponent, so you would have to make sure to always have either Gengar or Smeargle alive to Destiny Bond it, which I'm not sure is possible. Maybe running your suggested Double Team + Mono Attacking (which would probably be Iron Tail) set could work, sou you could set up Evasion before there is only 1 mon left and then beat it with the evasion boosts.

 

[Actaeon]

Funny, wtset -- I was thinking about posting about Assist Persian as well, but had an other idea of how it could sweep.

As we've seen on the Mono-Bug team, the move Nightmare on Butterfree seems to work quite well. So a set with Assist / Nightmare / Substitute / Filler would seem pretty dangerous as well! Leftovers is a good option so it recovers enough HP on average, possibly coupled with Double Team. Using Thief is also an option, because Quick Claw could easily spoil the fun.

I suggest to look into this!

 

[wtset]

Funny, wtset -- I was thinking about posting about Assist Persian as well, but had an other idea of how it could sweep.

As we've seen on the Mono-Bug team, the move Nightmare on Butterfree seems to work quite well. So a set with Assist / Nightmare / Substitute / Filler would seem pretty dangerous as well! Leftovers is a good option so it recovers enough HP on average, possibly coupled with Double Team. Using Thief is also an option, because Quick Claw could easily spoil the fun.

I suggest to look into this!

Thanks for the suggestion! Assist / Substitute / Double Team / Nightmare was actually the initial set I tried using. In my experience, the problem with this is that against anything with Leftovers or some half-decent Recovery move, Nightmare is just too slow without an additional damage-dealing move. Running Thief would kind of solve this (and also deal with annoying Quick Claw / Brightpowder stuff), but I think Leftovers are too important on this set. Another idea I had was using Dream Eater for Recovery, which then allows you to run no item and Thief, but that leaves you with no real option to damage Dark-Types.

 

[Voltolos]

Hey guys, I’m back for another round of collective thinking! I was going to ask, what pokemon would serve as the best 1v1 battler? If both mons came in completely fresh? I’ve been playing with the idea of a double Explosion team (likely a CB Snorlax with Self Destruct and a Metagross). My current first choice is Suicune, but I was toying with the idea of Aerodactyl as well. The way I see it I either need a good hyper offense mon, or a pokemon with silly hax that’s hard to deal with, like double boost Cradily, Blissey, or Latias.

 

[Taylor]

I think Slaking/Metagross are your best options, either with Choice Band. In 1v1 typically you want to be spamming CB Hyper Beam, Double-edge, Return, Earthquake or Meteor Mash. What specifically 1v1 kind of battles you mean, Pyramid? Because if you can explode in 1v1 and take the victory then Snorlax with Body Slam/Selfdestruct/Shadow Ball/Earthquake or the previously mentioned Metagross probably works best.

Meanwhile I have been testing a Modest Gengar holding Scope Lens. It has Psychic / Thunderbolt / Fire Punch / Ice Punch with 390 Satk and 316 Speed. You OHKO most Pokemon with a critical hit. I have tried using Mild Latios outclassed with only 36? SAtk and 280 Speed but I would have to reset my game and learn how to RNG for it to win consistantly.

So far I know I am sticking with Metagross' four attacks Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Explosion and Shadow Ball equipped with Lum Berry/Leftovers and DDMence with either of those two items depending which Metagross holds. Shell Bell Salamence setting up against foes guaranteeing a sweep sounds promising, though I doubt it will rarely ever be more useful than Lum Berry/Leftovers. I could try Shell Bell on Metagross and add Milotic/Snorlax with Leftovers to replace Gengar from 50 wins onwards to beef up my staying power because I know later rounds Starmie/Raikou/Latios/Zapdos with good spreads and movesets can be dangerous so I am considering a make-shift Snorlax with Rest / Body Slam / Shadow Ball / Counter but I do have issues with which item to put where. I really ought to breed for a powerful Starmie to strengthen those 1v1s vs strong special and the Ice-type resist helps Salamence, though like Latios my Quirky Raikou has poor IVs I am forced to run a more complete and maxed out Starmie/Gengar.

Or do I go for Gold in every facility for Starf Berry to go along with my Leftovers and Lum Berry I am convinced will get me my 100 wins and hope it has more impact than Choice Band because I can't rely on being choice-locked.

 

[Voltolos]

I think Slaking/Metagross are your best options, either with Choice Band. In 1v1 typically you want to be spamming CB Hyper Beam, Double-edge, Return, Earthquake or Meteor Mash. What specifically 1v1 kind of battles you mean, Pyramid? Because if you can explode in 1v1 and take the victory then Snorlax with Body Slam/Selfdestruct/Shadow Ball/Earthquake or the previously mentioned Metagross probably works best.

Meanwhile I have been testing a Modest Gengar holding Scope Lens. It has Psychic / Thunderbolt / Fire Punch / Ice Punch with 390 Satk and 316 Speed. You OHKO most Pokemon with a critical hit. I have tried using Mild Latios outclassed with only 36? SAtk and 280 Speed but I would have to reset my game and learn how to RNG for it to win consistantly.

So far I know I am sticking with Metagross' four attacks Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Explosion and Shadow Ball equipped with Lum Berry/Leftovers and DDMence with either of those two items depending which Metagross holds. Shell Bell Salamence setting up against foes guaranteeing a sweep sounds promising, though I doubt it will rarely ever be more useful than Lum Berry/Leftovers. I could try Shell Bell on Metagross and add Milotic/Snorlax with Leftovers to replace Gengar from 50 wins onwards to beef up my staying power because I know later rounds Starmie/Raikou/Latios/Zapdos with good spreads and movesets can be dangerous so I am considering a make-shift Snorlax with Rest / Body Slam / Shadow Ball / Counter but I do have issues with which item to put where. I really ought to breed for a powerful Starmie to strengthen those 1v1s vs strong special and the Ice-type resist helps Salamence, though like Latios my Quirky Raikou has poor IVs I am forced to run a more complete and maxed out Starmie/Gengar.

Or do I go for Gold in every facility for Starf Berry to go along with my Leftovers and Lum Berry I am convinced will get me my 100 wins and hope it has more impact than Choice Band because I can't rely on being choice-locked.

Not battle pyramid, Tower for the most part. CB snorlax is in first and while I’m hoping not to use Self Destruct right away, he can blow away basically anything in the game away in one shot. Then, hopefully, I can manage a 2v1 with Metagross but if I cannot, I blow him up and (most likely) cause a 1v1 scenario. Problem is I can’t use CB Slaking if I’m running CB Snorlax. I could forget about CBLax, but he really is the best exploder (or self destruct) out there.

 

[Taylor]

I guess you could run Silk Scarf Slaking or one with Salac/Leichi Berry. Metagross and Snorlax with either one of Lum Berry and Leftovers and try Choice Band Slaking in your last slot which on paper should be able to deal with any pokemon 1v1 if it is their last also.

I do think Gengar is better than Snorlax for type coverage and it can explode as well, but there is nothing weak about running two of the bulkiest Normal-types and a Metagross to help tank anything that is super effective against them both. At least you have Snorlax and Metagross' freedom and durability to attack or explode given the situation.

Choice Band Salamence with Double-edge might also be worth considering though hypocritical of me to suggest such having just breed one with Dragon Dance because it's something I have never done before. It's just say something like an untimely Blaziken comes in to the battle late and you could find yourself unable to win unless you run a flawless Slaking, which then you'll have no worries.

But I suppose you can just about Selfdestruct on anything with Choice Band and guarantee OHKO so often it is what your strategy requires. Metagross and Salamence (DD preferably). I don't know whether you have access to the rarer battle items some cannot obtain without owning another game.

EDIT: I forget but can you explode on opponents' last mon in Arena and take the win?

 

[Kommo-o]

Hey guys, I’m back for another round of collective thinking! I was going to ask, what pokemon would serve as the best 1v1 battler? If both mons came in completely fresh? I’ve been playing with the idea of a double Explosion team (likely a CB Snorlax with Self Destruct and a Metagross). My current first choice is Suicune, but I was toying with the idea of Aerodactyl as well. The way I see it I either need a good hyper offense mon, or a pokemon with silly hax that’s hard to deal with, like double boost Cradily, Blissey, or Latias.

Is there any specific facility related to your question? If we have to mention as the best mon for 1v1 it would be CB Slaking but taking it into Doubles is not really a good idea unless you can provide it with Skill Swap support. Lati@s are also good calls and they fit perfectly well on this format thanks to Levitate and their great movepool.

Boosters like Cradily, Blissey or Latias are always hard to deal with, but in Doubles, you can double target these mons which can allow you to deal with them quickly before it is too late.

 

[greentyphlosion]

Kudos on the Assist team, wtset, what a fab idea.

Voltolos Latios and Slaking are imo the best special and physical attackers imo. I've gotten great results with the pair of them in both the Dome and the Tower. If you're playing 1v1 with Snorlax as your lead you need something fast and reasonably sturdy that can handle the Fighting-types who might pose problems for Snorlax - Metagross suffers from a lot of the same problems in that regard. If you're dead-set on the double Explosion Gengar, Weezing, and Exeggutor all come to mind as Exploding partners who can cover some of the things Snorlax can't.

I've been making good use of the self-isolation - I've managed to push my Tower Multi streak to 161! It's still running as of now but I'm doing it in short bursts, which helps keep me concentrated. Been fairly fortunate with the selection of AI partners and teamed up with a couple of trainers using Flyers and/or Levitators, though I still have my preset ingame buddy to pair up with if need be. (Though I'm trying not to rely too much on her, takes the fun and the unpredictability right out of it.) At the moment reaching 200 seems slightly unrealistic, but you never know!

 

[Voltolos]

I guess you could run Silk Scarf Slaking or one with Salac/Leichi Berry. Metagross and Snorlax with either one of Lum Berry and Leftovers and try Choice Band Slaking in your last slot which on paper should be able to deal with any pokemon 1v1 if it is their last also.

I do think Gengar is better than Snorlax for type coverage and it can explode as well, but there is nothing weak about running two of the bulkiest Normal-types and a Metagross to help tank anything that is super effective against them both. At least you have Snorlax and Metagross' freedom and durability to attack or explode given the situation.

Choice Band Salamence with Double-edge might also be worth considering though hypocritical of me to suggest such having just breed one with Dragon Dance because it's something I have never done before. It's just say something like an untimely Blaziken comes in to the battle late and you could find yourself unable to win unless you run a flawless Slaking, which then you'll have no worries.

But I suppose you can just about Selfdestruct on anything with Choice Band and guarantee OHKO so often it is what your strategy requires. Metagross and Salamence (DD preferably). I don't know whether you have access to the rarer battle items some cannot obtain without owning another game.

EDIT: I forget but can you explode on opponents' last mon in Arena and take the win?

Gengar may be a good option, it would certainly help out my coverage some, but Mence is a little too slow I believe. I have access to everything in Gen 3 including events and the GC games. I doubt you can win like that in the Arena, and I’m not planning on testing that.

Is there any specific facility related to your question? If we have to mention as the best mon for 1v1 it would be CB Slaking but taking it into Doubles is not really a good idea unless you can provide it with Skill Swap support. Lati@s are also good calls and they fit perfectly well on this format thanks to Levitate and their great movepool.

Boosters like Cradily, Blissey or Latias are always hard to deal with, but in Doubles, you can double target these mons which can allow you to deal with them quickly before it is too late.

I’m sorry, this was something I was planning to use in the battle tower! I was hoping to limit the amount of mons I face to decrease the odds of the enemy getting a setup. Singles, Latias may be a good option if I don’t lead off with Gengar.