That's fine and it improves your independence as the judge too! Also it gives various players a chance to impose another challenge guaranteed (even though I really like your ideas so far!).
P.s. I am now at trainer 52 with my Santa team xD
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Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Kommo-o
- Start date
P.s. I am now at trainer 52 with my Santa team xD
I agree ^ could always do uu in dome
Hello! I'm in too!
I'll take part, and I've already selected the "hard one", Delibird+Stantler for the105 wins Gold as Actaeon did.
Just received my freshly breeded Christmas gift eggs, I'll immediately EVs train them and then I'll start grinding on my test cartridge save.
I have surprisingly high expectations on my team, let's see!
Good luck to all of the players, may the best win!
I'll take part, and I've already selected the "hard one", Delibird+Stantler for the
Just received my freshly breeded Christmas gift eggs, I'll immediately EVs train them and then I'll start grinding on my test cartridge save.
I have surprisingly high expectations on my team, let's see!
Good luck to all of the players, may the best win!
You're not testing on the 2457 streak? Then your expectations aren't high enough. ;)
I lost before Gold Anabel in a not-very-unlucky battle, back to the drawing board...
I just had some serious mood whiplash in Battle Factory doubles. Following a round where Combusken and SunnyBeam Gloom tore through almost everything singlehandedly (Banded Trick Linoone came in clutch at the very end) I started a new round and lost to Double Team Snorlax round 1.
Also, am I alone in having a panic response to Ponyta?
Also, am I alone in having a panic response to Ponyta?
Since the deadline has expired a few hours ago, here are the submission for the Battle Frontier Challenge #2:
Sadly, only two people have taken the challenge which, although they both have done an excellent job, is still a bit disappointing. I'll take the blame for this, since the format of the challenge was maybe not quite accessible enough for many. I hope that the person who wins this challenge will come up with something that will interest more people.
On a related note, since we only have two participants and they can only vote for eachother it would be nice if some non-participant could vote as well so we can make a decision. I will cast a vote myself, but it would feel a bit awkward if my single vote decides the challenge.
I'm in this challenge, I've already commissioned the breeding of Delibird and Stantler and I also want to submit to you my team: https://pokepast.es/97a066641ea3099b
It's basically a lead-exploiting team, able to prevent at its best Quick Claw hax thanks to a double Thief lead.
The Pokémon that are harmed the most by QC are by far Pressure staller (Aerodactyl, Moltres and Suicune being the best). From them, the only wincon with a setup move is of course Suicune (Raikou has not the bulk to better gain advantage of Intimidate from Stantler, and its Speed is useless since most of the times the foe will be Paralyzed).
Best Cune set should be SubTect, but I run Surf + Ice Beam becausethis team has serious issues with everything I want to capitalize the most on having a single unphazeable sweeper (because I've basically 2 suicide leads). Keep in mind that, without Ice coverage, every Dragon type is a problem, starting from Anabel's Calm Mind + Recover Latios.
Also, having 2 SubTect staller facing opponent lead - before Suicune even switches in - is great to make the opponent waste PPs from its best moves. Suicune has just then to set-up on a paralyzed, itemless, low on PPs and at -1 Atk foe.
Quick notes on sets: Speed is of course maxed out on every Pokémon (Stantler and Suicune are EVd to outspeed Anabel's Raikou and everything slower, while Timid Delibird is surprisingly fast too, outspeeding a lot of sets from Lati@s, Heracross, Suicune, Gardevoir, Blaziken, Tauros and so on).
My Thief leads have also Lefties HP (*16+1), since it allows them to abuse from SubTect stalling strategy at its best with perfect Lefties recovery. Suicune needs a Timid Nature, even if a Bold one would've made tougher Substitutes, because of Anabel's Raikou: it can manage to pass through my 2 jokes unharmed, and so it's mandatory for Cune to outspeed it.
It's not great, but it works for sure.
I'll get to the Gold, probably 105, let's see!
It's basically a lead-exploiting team, able to prevent at its best Quick Claw hax thanks to a double Thief lead.
The Pokémon that are harmed the most by QC are by far Pressure staller (Aerodactyl, Moltres and Suicune being the best). From them, the only wincon with a setup move is of course Suicune (Raikou has not the bulk to better gain advantage of Intimidate from Stantler, and its Speed is useless since most of the times the foe will be Paralyzed).
Best Cune set should be SubTect, but I run Surf + Ice Beam because
Also, having 2 SubTect staller facing opponent lead - before Suicune even switches in - is great to make the opponent waste PPs from its best moves. Suicune has just then to set-up on a paralyzed, itemless, low on PPs and at -1 Atk foe.
Quick notes on sets: Speed is of course maxed out on every Pokémon (Stantler and Suicune are EVd to outspeed Anabel's Raikou and everything slower, while Timid Delibird is surprisingly fast too, outspeeding a lot of sets from Lati@s, Heracross, Suicune, Gardevoir, Blaziken, Tauros and so on).
My Thief leads have also Lefties HP (*16+1), since it allows them to abuse from SubTect stalling strategy at its best with perfect Lefties recovery. Suicune needs a Timid Nature, even if a Bold one would've made tougher Substitutes, because of Anabel's Raikou: it can manage to pass through my 2 jokes unharmed, and so it's mandatory for Cune to outspeed it.
It's not great, but it works for sure.
I'll get to the Gold, probably 105, let's see!
The Christmas Challenge
Before diving straight into the teams, here's a quick overview of my opinion/thoughts about Delibird and Stantler before the challenge:
Delibird's only usable stat is its 75 base Speed, which, unfortunately, is still way too low to outspeed important threats such as neutral base 100's or worse, such as Jolteon, Starmie and Aerodactyl. Movepool-wise, it hasn't got much to offer in the form of crippling moves: only Thief, Mud-Slap and Icy Wind have situational uses, and Delibird will never be able to use all of them. On the defensive side, it gets OHKOed by pretty much everything unless it focuses on a 252 HP / 252 set, choosing one of its defenses to maximize. But in that case, Delibird becomes way too slow to actually do anything in return.
Vital Spirit and Hustle are interesting abilities: with Hustle, the still-perfectly accurate Aerial Ace becomes about 90% as strong as Salamence's (assuming Adamant natures) and it makes Focus Punch 2HKO a large set of Pokemon, including bulky Rock-types. 80% accuracy is shaky at best, and in order to make Hustle Delibird a real threat it would need +6 Evasion and +1 Attack at least. With these kind of boosts, Stantler would be a better sweeper still with STAB Return and decent Ghost/Ground coverage.
Vital Spirit, on the other hand, makes Delibird one of the funniest counters in the game to Sleep move + Dream Eater sets (e.g. Jynx) and a decent switch into Breloom after Intimidate.
Stantler, unlike Delibird, can seriously contribute to a team. It has a fantastic ability in Intimidate and an interesting stats/movepool combination that enables it to perform different roles such as a moderately bulky crippler (Thunder Wave, Sand-Attack, Skill Swap, Thief, Hypnosis) or a Double Team / Calm Mind sweeper or a PP-reducer/staller using Spite or a reasonably strong Choice Band user. Even a flinch set including Thunder Wave and STAB Stomp could be hard to deal with given some Evasion boosts. Making a good EV distribution for Stantler is the challenging part.
Given these attributes, what's the best third? Well, that depends greatly on the strategy you choose. Here's what came to my mind:
Jingle Bells (Delibird) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Endure
- Substitute
Delibird has two purposes at the same time: Icy Wind anything that outspeeds Articuno, possibly by using Endure first, and steal Quick Claws from the likes of Regirock, Snorlax, Armaldo and Metagross. This set does those things, although there's always a possibility of getting para'd by Thunderbolt while you Endure, or being outsped on the turn you want to use Thief. Substitute is a filler to scout e.g. Swords Dance Marowak, and also to stall a bit of PP in the process. If possible, keep Delibird alive so it can possibly steal a Leftovers later.
Blue Christmas (Articuno) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Haze
- Rest
Articuno surely fits the Christmas theme. This is the tried-and-true staller from my mono Ice-team, although it can't afford to run only 122 Speed here, as unlike Jynx, Delibird won't be able to Icy Wind Jolteon twice. Therefore this Articuno is notably less bulky than the original one. A formidable staller, capable of depleting all PP of most Pokemon without breaking a sweat and leave the field at 100% health to come back in later and do another round of stalling. Haze makes sure Stantler comes in against a neutral Struggle no matter what.
For Stantler, there's a couple of movesets that work decently. The first one I tried is Sub/DT/Thunder Wave, Return. Articuno re-stalls paralyzed Ghost-types and actually anything else that Return doesn't beat provided they're not too lucky. You're stuck against some Leftovers Pokemon such as Registeel and Regirock, though. Also, Poison Point is nasty against this.
Another option is to run Sub/Stomp/Thunder Wave/Spite if you're ready to for flinch stall.
The best one IMO is Sub/DT/Calm Mind/BITE, as the 40 PP Bite hits everything at least and with a couple of SpA EVs you can 3HKO most things at +6. Against some stuff you have to go back to Articuno ofc, such as Umbreon and Blissey, but most of the opponents Stantler can't beat with this set are quite passive and easy for Articuno to switch into and outstall.
A funny in-between non-serious idea I had is to try and let Delibird be the sweeper. I decided to lead with a crippler Stantler and the evil creation "Oh Mary": the Zapdos set from the mono-Electric team that now passes a Liechi boost instead of a Ganlon boost. With +6 Evasion and +1 Attack, Substitute Hustle Delibird is really a force to be reckoned with. The best thing of all: it lets you use PRESENT (with only 0.9*0.8=0.72 accuracy) since it's a joke attempt anyway. Most Pokemon that resist Aerial Ace and Focus Punch, such as Zapdos, won't be happy on average when they receive their PRESENT. On a more serious note, HP[Ground/Rock] and Return are probably the best fillers.
The second 'real' attempt was to completely sacrifice the 'bad' Pokemon in order to setup a sweeper. Since both Delibird and Stantler will likely not survive the setup, this sweeper has to cover most Frontier Pokemon on its own. A natural candidate here is DDmence, because it provides another Intimidate user and boosts its Speed as well.
It turns out that Stantler and Delibird can't cripple reliably enough, and DDMence fails to setup on many opponents still, such as Clear Body Pokemon (most importantly Metagross of course) and relies too much on evasion hax to get to +6. At +2 or +3 even, Salamence often still can't finish its job. Another candidate is Suicune, and we arrive at the final team, although not in the double-sacrifice crippling fashion you might expect.
The final team: Coming Home for Christmas
Suicune might not be the unforgiving sweeper Salamence or Latios can be, but it requires far less support to actually setup given its formidable bulk. At +6, it has very few counters as I've learned from the mono Water team. Also, the Pokemon it can't beat without losing too much of its PP have low Attack, which enables to switch into their Struggle so Suicune can come back to setup to +3 before they succumb to their Toxic infliction.
Stantler @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 172 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Sand-Attack
- Thief
- Skill Swap
Stantler is still the lead of choice, sporting Intimidate as usual. Thunder Wave enables Suicune to outspeed everything and gives free turns (not good when I Protect, but very good when I Substitute, which eventually happens anyway). Also it allows Stantler itself to outspeed their lead, so I can further cripple with Sand-Attack. If they get fully paralyzed when Stantler is still alive, it's usually GG already. Skill Swap is surprisingly useful: Levitate from Flygon/Claydol, Volt Absorb from Jolteon (it always lives Jolteon4's crit Thunderbolt), and even Pressure from Double Teamers like Suicune and Articuno are great abilities to steal, and Stantler's intimidate gives them nothing in return. Oh yeah, it removes Water Absorb as well from the likes of Vaporeon, Lapras and Quagsire (which Stantler importantly outspeeds) to turn it against them.
Sitrus Berry allows Stantler to survive two Espeon Psychics 87% of the time, which lets it use Thunder Wave twice: one to remove a potential Lum Berry and one to actually paralyze it (unless Synchronize paralysis gets me before I can use the second Thunder Wave). When it is consumed, I can use Thief to remove Quick Claws from dangerous opponents like Rhydon or Steelix (the latter can be dangerous because of Explosion). Sitrus Berry is really good here: it turns so many 2HKOs into 3HKOs with high probability (also for example Rhydon's EQ at -1). I feel like it's made for this Stantler to give it the bulk it deserves. Of course, you can get unlucky with Sitrus Berry if they get a low-roll first and a very high roll after many scenarios such as the above. But I think this spread 'uniformly' optimizes the probabilities against most opponents.
This explains the EV spread as well; 4 Speed EVs lets it outspeed Nidoking, which is always a good bonus since I can't paralyze it.
A good alternative to Thief is Roar, for example against the SD+Agility+Baton Pass Scizor, or a Swords Dance Armaldo for example. Still, Thief pairs really well with Sitrus Berry and usually Suicune can still setup/stall against boosted opponents if they are paralyzed. Roar would also definitely make my life easier against Marowak, because usually I can't use Thief (it will use SD until it can KO with Earthquake). Luckily, Sand-Attack nails it and the aforementioned Scizor to an extent.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 140 HP / 156 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Surf
The star of the team, and the least-requirement non-Uber sweeper ADV has to offer (sorry Snorlax and Tyranitar). This Suicune is quite speedy because Intimidate reduces the need for physical bulk a little, and I really want to outspeed Lati@s before they get a Calm Mind in. In order to outspeed Anabel's Latios, I have to run 132 Speed at least. Jolteon4 will be paralyzed anyway because Stantler always lives its assaults, and Modest Jolteon will get crippled by Delibird if blasts through Stantler somehow. So the rest goes into bulk: 193 is a perfect Leftovers number and also gives it some special bulk, giving Suicune's Substitute a chance to survive not-so-powerful Psychics after a Calm Mind, for example. With this spread, Suicune's Substitute survives 170+ Metagross' Earthquake about 2/3 of the time, which is enough since it will have many opportunities. At +6, only STAB Thunders can break its Sub on the special side (without a crit of course).
Not much else to say about Suicune, I think it explains itself pretty well. Be careful with your Surf PP against the likes of Milotic if there's still a third Pokemon waiting. Inspired by the Bite special-sweeping Stantler on the stall team, I actually considered using BITE over Surf because it hits everything and has 40 PP, but this creates more problems than it solves.
And now... the failsafe and "glue" of the team!
Delibird @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Endure
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Toxic
Delibird provides two-fold support: firstly, it can sacrifice itself to save the setup BEFORE sending in Suicune by grabbing a Quick Claw from something really dangerous or by Icy Winding a Pokemon Stantler failed to cripple through hax (e.g. said Espeon) with Endure + Thief/Icy Wind.
The other, most important role is to come in against a Struggling opponent Suicune doesn't have the PP for to kill, use Toxic, and switch right back to Suicune, which enables it to setup to +3 again before the last Pokemon is sent out. This is of vital importance against 2nd Pokemon Water Absorbers, Blissey, Amnesia Regice and Double Team (or even just the Calm Mind one) Suicune. This is why it has 252 Def; it maximizes Delibird's survivability on the physical side and prevents dealing too much recoil damage. Secondly, it gives Delibird a chance to survive Cross Chops and even Breloom's Focus Punch sometimes after Intimidate, should you decide to switch to Breloom on turn 1 of the battle.
Toxic only has a (1-0.85*0.33)^8 = 7.2% chance to miss eight times against a Double Team + Pressure opponent like Suicune. Other Double Team Pressure users are OHKOed or 2HKOed by Suicune itself, such as Registeel and Zapdos. Non-Pressure Double Teamers that Surf can't beat are handled by Toxic 99.5% of the time and are rare anyway. Note that Toxic is better than its alternative, Aerial Ace, because Delibird won't win the 1v1 against a Struggler with AA most of the time lol, even if it has abysmal Attack such as Lapras or Suicune.
The Anabel strategy
Anabel is bad news. The only way you can win without relying on a critical hit Surf is as follows:
1) Thunder Wave Raikou two times to burn through its Lum Berry. This is always possible if you don't get crit.
2) Stall out the Thunderbolts with Suicune.
3) Stall out the rest of its moves by switching between Delibird and Suicune.
4) Leave Delibird in once it runs out of Rest and bring it down to approximately a quarter of its health with Thief and Icy Wind. DON'T USE TOXIC.
5) When Raikou starts to Struggle, setup Suicune to +6 and let it kill itself with Struggle or finish it off with Surf if you have plenty PP.
6) Stall out Latios' attacking PP and Recover (it saves redundant CM's for last, fortunately) and finish it with approximately 8 Surfs. Make sure you have at least 2 Surf PP left for Snorlax. This is always possible if you haven't wasted PP against Raikou.
7) 2HKO the Snorlax; it will use Curse on turn 1.
All in all, I think what makes this team really effective is Delibird having this double role and therefore it will be capable of helping either in the beginning or in the end --if needed-- no matter what. The most dangerous scenario is when you need Delibird to use Icy Wind, because then you can't help Suicune anymore when it's stuck against these Water Absorb or Blissey-like Pokemon, and even if you can stall them out, you might have to face a third Pokemon with only Struggle as an offensive move. I guess this is why Suicune's Attack IV shouldn't be zero. This team making double use of Berry + Thief is pretty original I think. Also I think it's funny that Santa actually STEALS items.
The team does all it can to prevent Special sweepers from ruining the fun; something I've seen many people talk about on the forum ("hope you don't face a Guitarist", etc). The main issue is probably that Stantler is a little slow, but it hasn't posed problems for me yet. It has decent chances even against terrible matchups, like Snorlax, Metagross and Zapdos.
Here's the 98--105 footage;
there were some interesting scenarios with Water Absorb Lapras and Rest Kingdra. I didn't play optimally. Against Anabel I usually try to fire off a couple of Surfs at the beginning, because a crit or Anabel failing to use Recover in time can make the game a lot faster. This happened in the video too.
Currently the team sits at 126 wins and I'm planning on doing a live stream if appreciated.
Before diving straight into the teams, here's a quick overview of my opinion/thoughts about Delibird and Stantler before the challenge:
Delibird's only usable stat is its 75 base Speed, which, unfortunately, is still way too low to outspeed important threats such as neutral base 100's or worse, such as Jolteon, Starmie and Aerodactyl. Movepool-wise, it hasn't got much to offer in the form of crippling moves: only Thief, Mud-Slap and Icy Wind have situational uses, and Delibird will never be able to use all of them. On the defensive side, it gets OHKOed by pretty much everything unless it focuses on a 252 HP / 252 set, choosing one of its defenses to maximize. But in that case, Delibird becomes way too slow to actually do anything in return.
Vital Spirit and Hustle are interesting abilities: with Hustle, the still-perfectly accurate Aerial Ace becomes about 90% as strong as Salamence's (assuming Adamant natures) and it makes Focus Punch 2HKO a large set of Pokemon, including bulky Rock-types. 80% accuracy is shaky at best, and in order to make Hustle Delibird a real threat it would need +6 Evasion and +1 Attack at least. With these kind of boosts, Stantler would be a better sweeper still with STAB Return and decent Ghost/Ground coverage.
Vital Spirit, on the other hand, makes Delibird one of the funniest counters in the game to Sleep move + Dream Eater sets (e.g. Jynx) and a decent switch into Breloom after Intimidate.
Stantler, unlike Delibird, can seriously contribute to a team. It has a fantastic ability in Intimidate and an interesting stats/movepool combination that enables it to perform different roles such as a moderately bulky crippler (Thunder Wave, Sand-Attack, Skill Swap, Thief, Hypnosis) or a Double Team / Calm Mind sweeper or a PP-reducer/staller using Spite or a reasonably strong Choice Band user. Even a flinch set including Thunder Wave and STAB Stomp could be hard to deal with given some Evasion boosts. Making a good EV distribution for Stantler is the challenging part.
Given these attributes, what's the best third? Well, that depends greatly on the strategy you choose. Here's what came to my mind:
Jingle Bells (Delibird) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Endure
- Substitute
Delibird has two purposes at the same time: Icy Wind anything that outspeeds Articuno, possibly by using Endure first, and steal Quick Claws from the likes of Regirock, Snorlax, Armaldo and Metagross. This set does those things, although there's always a possibility of getting para'd by Thunderbolt while you Endure, or being outsped on the turn you want to use Thief. Substitute is a filler to scout e.g. Swords Dance Marowak, and also to stall a bit of PP in the process. If possible, keep Delibird alive so it can possibly steal a Leftovers later.
Blue Christmas (Articuno) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Haze
- Rest
Articuno surely fits the Christmas theme. This is the tried-and-true staller from my mono Ice-team, although it can't afford to run only 122 Speed here, as unlike Jynx, Delibird won't be able to Icy Wind Jolteon twice. Therefore this Articuno is notably less bulky than the original one. A formidable staller, capable of depleting all PP of most Pokemon without breaking a sweat and leave the field at 100% health to come back in later and do another round of stalling. Haze makes sure Stantler comes in against a neutral Struggle no matter what.
For Stantler, there's a couple of movesets that work decently. The first one I tried is Sub/DT/Thunder Wave, Return. Articuno re-stalls paralyzed Ghost-types and actually anything else that Return doesn't beat provided they're not too lucky. You're stuck against some Leftovers Pokemon such as Registeel and Regirock, though. Also, Poison Point is nasty against this.
Another option is to run Sub/Stomp/Thunder Wave/Spite if you're ready to for flinch stall.
The best one IMO is Sub/DT/Calm Mind/BITE, as the 40 PP Bite hits everything at least and with a couple of SpA EVs you can 3HKO most things at +6. Against some stuff you have to go back to Articuno ofc, such as Umbreon and Blissey, but most of the opponents Stantler can't beat with this set are quite passive and easy for Articuno to switch into and outstall.
A funny in-between non-serious idea I had is to try and let Delibird be the sweeper. I decided to lead with a crippler Stantler and the evil creation "Oh Mary": the Zapdos set from the mono-Electric team that now passes a Liechi boost instead of a Ganlon boost. With +6 Evasion and +1 Attack, Substitute Hustle Delibird is really a force to be reckoned with. The best thing of all: it lets you use PRESENT (with only 0.9*0.8=0.72 accuracy) since it's a joke attempt anyway. Most Pokemon that resist Aerial Ace and Focus Punch, such as Zapdos, won't be happy on average when they receive their PRESENT. On a more serious note, HP[Ground/Rock] and Return are probably the best fillers.
The second 'real' attempt was to completely sacrifice the 'bad' Pokemon in order to setup a sweeper. Since both Delibird and Stantler will likely not survive the setup, this sweeper has to cover most Frontier Pokemon on its own. A natural candidate here is DDmence, because it provides another Intimidate user and boosts its Speed as well.
It turns out that Stantler and Delibird can't cripple reliably enough, and DDMence fails to setup on many opponents still, such as Clear Body Pokemon (most importantly Metagross of course) and relies too much on evasion hax to get to +6. At +2 or +3 even, Salamence often still can't finish its job. Another candidate is Suicune, and we arrive at the final team, although not in the double-sacrifice crippling fashion you might expect.
The final team: Coming Home for Christmas
Suicune might not be the unforgiving sweeper Salamence or Latios can be, but it requires far less support to actually setup given its formidable bulk. At +6, it has very few counters as I've learned from the mono Water team. Also, the Pokemon it can't beat without losing too much of its PP have low Attack, which enables to switch into their Struggle so Suicune can come back to setup to +3 before they succumb to their Toxic infliction.
Stantler @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 172 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Sand-Attack
- Thief
- Skill Swap
Stantler is still the lead of choice, sporting Intimidate as usual. Thunder Wave enables Suicune to outspeed everything and gives free turns (not good when I Protect, but very good when I Substitute, which eventually happens anyway). Also it allows Stantler itself to outspeed their lead, so I can further cripple with Sand-Attack. If they get fully paralyzed when Stantler is still alive, it's usually GG already. Skill Swap is surprisingly useful: Levitate from Flygon/Claydol, Volt Absorb from Jolteon (it always lives Jolteon4's crit Thunderbolt), and even Pressure from Double Teamers like Suicune and Articuno are great abilities to steal, and Stantler's intimidate gives them nothing in return. Oh yeah, it removes Water Absorb as well from the likes of Vaporeon, Lapras and Quagsire (which Stantler importantly outspeeds) to turn it against them.
Sitrus Berry allows Stantler to survive two Espeon Psychics 87% of the time, which lets it use Thunder Wave twice: one to remove a potential Lum Berry and one to actually paralyze it (unless Synchronize paralysis gets me before I can use the second Thunder Wave). When it is consumed, I can use Thief to remove Quick Claws from dangerous opponents like Rhydon or Steelix (the latter can be dangerous because of Explosion). Sitrus Berry is really good here: it turns so many 2HKOs into 3HKOs with high probability (also for example Rhydon's EQ at -1). I feel like it's made for this Stantler to give it the bulk it deserves. Of course, you can get unlucky with Sitrus Berry if they get a low-roll first and a very high roll after many scenarios such as the above. But I think this spread 'uniformly' optimizes the probabilities against most opponents.
This explains the EV spread as well; 4 Speed EVs lets it outspeed Nidoking, which is always a good bonus since I can't paralyze it.
A good alternative to Thief is Roar, for example against the SD+Agility+Baton Pass Scizor, or a Swords Dance Armaldo for example. Still, Thief pairs really well with Sitrus Berry and usually Suicune can still setup/stall against boosted opponents if they are paralyzed. Roar would also definitely make my life easier against Marowak, because usually I can't use Thief (it will use SD until it can KO with Earthquake). Luckily, Sand-Attack nails it and the aforementioned Scizor to an extent.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 140 HP / 156 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Surf
The star of the team, and the least-requirement non-Uber sweeper ADV has to offer (sorry Snorlax and Tyranitar). This Suicune is quite speedy because Intimidate reduces the need for physical bulk a little, and I really want to outspeed Lati@s before they get a Calm Mind in. In order to outspeed Anabel's Latios, I have to run 132 Speed at least. Jolteon4 will be paralyzed anyway because Stantler always lives its assaults, and Modest Jolteon will get crippled by Delibird if blasts through Stantler somehow. So the rest goes into bulk: 193 is a perfect Leftovers number and also gives it some special bulk, giving Suicune's Substitute a chance to survive not-so-powerful Psychics after a Calm Mind, for example. With this spread, Suicune's Substitute survives 170+ Metagross' Earthquake about 2/3 of the time, which is enough since it will have many opportunities. At +6, only STAB Thunders can break its Sub on the special side (without a crit of course).
Not much else to say about Suicune, I think it explains itself pretty well. Be careful with your Surf PP against the likes of Milotic if there's still a third Pokemon waiting. Inspired by the Bite special-sweeping Stantler on the stall team, I actually considered using BITE over Surf because it hits everything and has 40 PP, but this creates more problems than it solves.
And now... the failsafe and "glue" of the team!
Delibird @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Endure
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Toxic
Delibird provides two-fold support: firstly, it can sacrifice itself to save the setup BEFORE sending in Suicune by grabbing a Quick Claw from something really dangerous or by Icy Winding a Pokemon Stantler failed to cripple through hax (e.g. said Espeon) with Endure + Thief/Icy Wind.
The other, most important role is to come in against a Struggling opponent Suicune doesn't have the PP for to kill, use Toxic, and switch right back to Suicune, which enables it to setup to +3 again before the last Pokemon is sent out. This is of vital importance against 2nd Pokemon Water Absorbers, Blissey, Amnesia Regice and Double Team (or even just the Calm Mind one) Suicune. This is why it has 252 Def; it maximizes Delibird's survivability on the physical side and prevents dealing too much recoil damage. Secondly, it gives Delibird a chance to survive Cross Chops and even Breloom's Focus Punch sometimes after Intimidate, should you decide to switch to Breloom on turn 1 of the battle.
Toxic only has a (1-0.85*0.33)^8 = 7.2% chance to miss eight times against a Double Team + Pressure opponent like Suicune. Other Double Team Pressure users are OHKOed or 2HKOed by Suicune itself, such as Registeel and Zapdos. Non-Pressure Double Teamers that Surf can't beat are handled by Toxic 99.5% of the time and are rare anyway. Note that Toxic is better than its alternative, Aerial Ace, because Delibird won't win the 1v1 against a Struggler with AA most of the time lol, even if it has abysmal Attack such as Lapras or Suicune.
The Anabel strategy
Anabel is bad news. The only way you can win without relying on a critical hit Surf is as follows:
1) Thunder Wave Raikou two times to burn through its Lum Berry. This is always possible if you don't get crit.
2) Stall out the Thunderbolts with Suicune.
3) Stall out the rest of its moves by switching between Delibird and Suicune.
4) Leave Delibird in once it runs out of Rest and bring it down to approximately a quarter of its health with Thief and Icy Wind. DON'T USE TOXIC.
5) When Raikou starts to Struggle, setup Suicune to +6 and let it kill itself with Struggle or finish it off with Surf if you have plenty PP.
6) Stall out Latios' attacking PP and Recover (it saves redundant CM's for last, fortunately) and finish it with approximately 8 Surfs. Make sure you have at least 2 Surf PP left for Snorlax. This is always possible if you haven't wasted PP against Raikou.
7) 2HKO the Snorlax; it will use Curse on turn 1.
All in all, I think what makes this team really effective is Delibird having this double role and therefore it will be capable of helping either in the beginning or in the end --if needed-- no matter what. The most dangerous scenario is when you need Delibird to use Icy Wind, because then you can't help Suicune anymore when it's stuck against these Water Absorb or Blissey-like Pokemon, and even if you can stall them out, you might have to face a third Pokemon with only Struggle as an offensive move. I guess this is why Suicune's Attack IV shouldn't be zero. This team making double use of Berry + Thief is pretty original I think. Also I think it's funny that Santa actually STEALS items.
The team does all it can to prevent Special sweepers from ruining the fun; something I've seen many people talk about on the forum ("hope you don't face a Guitarist", etc). The main issue is probably that Stantler is a little slow, but it hasn't posed problems for me yet. It has decent chances even against terrible matchups, like Snorlax, Metagross and Zapdos.
Here's the 98--105 footage;
there were some interesting scenarios with Water Absorb Lapras and Rest Kingdra. I didn't play optimally. Against Anabel I usually try to fire off a couple of Surfs at the beginning, because a crit or Anabel failing to use Recover in time can make the game a lot faster. This happened in the video too.
Currently the team sits at 126 wins and I'm planning on doing a live stream if appreciated.
Sadly, only two people have taken the challenge which, although they both have done an excellent job, is still a bit disappointing. I'll take the blame for this, since the format of the challenge was maybe not quite accessible enough for many. I hope that the person who wins this challenge will come up with something that will interest more people.
On a related note, since we only have two participants and they can only vote for eachother it would be nice if some non-participant could vote as well so we can make a decision. I will cast a vote myself, but it would feel a bit awkward if my single vote decides the challenge.
You don't have to blame yourself for this. I actually wanted to play through this challenge myself since Stantler is really an interesting Pokemon to use and a very far cry from being a "shitmon." It's base stats are not perfect, but they are decently good enough to pull out a role as a crippler and also can be EV'd to actually survive a lot of things that most Pokemon like Metagross or Salamence have difficulty to.Since the deadline has expired a few hours ago, here are the submission for the Battle Frontier Challenge #2:
I'm in this challenge, I've already commissioned the breeding of Delibird and Stantler and I also want to submit to you my team: https://pokepast.es/97a066641ea3099b
It's basically a lead-exploiting team, able to prevent at its best Quick Claw hax thanks to a double Thief lead.
The Pokémon that are harmed the most by QC are by far Pressure staller (Aerodactyl, Moltres and Suicune being the best). From them, the only wincon with a setup move is of course Suicune (Raikou has not the bulk to better gain advantage of Intimidate from Stantler, and its Speed is useless since most of the times the foe will be Paralyzed).
Best Cune set should be SubTect, but I run Surf + Ice Beam becausethis team has serious issues with everythingI want to capitalize the most on having a single unphazeable sweeper (because I've basically 2 suicide leads). Keep in mind that, without Ice coverage, every Dragon type is a problem, starting from Anabel's Calm Mind + Recover Latios.
Also, having 2 SubTect staller facing opponent lead - before Suicune even switches in - is great to make the opponent waste PPs from its best moves. Suicune has just then to set-up on a paralyzed, itemless, low on PPs and at -1 Atk foe.
Quick notes on sets: Speed is of course maxed out on every Pokémon (Stantler and Suicune are EVd to outspeed Anabel's Raikou and everything slower, while Timid Delibird is surprisingly fast too, outspeeding a lot of sets from Lati@s, Heracross, Suicune, Gardevoir, Blaziken, Tauros and so on).
My Thief leads have also Lefties HP (*16+1), since it allows them to abuse from SubTect stalling strategy at its best with perfect Lefties recovery. Suicune needs a Timid Nature, even if a Bold one would've made tougher Substitutes, because of Anabel's Raikou: it can manage to pass through my 2 jokes unharmed, and so it's mandatory for Cune to outspeed it.
It's not great, but it works for sure.
I'll get to the Gold, probably 105, let's see!
The Christmas Challenge
Before diving straight into the teams, here's a quick overview of my opinion/thoughts about Delibird and Stantler before the challenge:
Delibird's only usable stat is its 75 base Speed, which, unfortunately, is still way too low to outspeed important threats such as neutral base 100's or worse, such as Jolteon, Starmie and Aerodactyl. Movepool-wise, it hasn't got much to offer in the form of crippling moves: only Thief, Mud-Slap and Icy Wind have situational uses, and Delibird will never be able to use all of them. On the defensive side, it gets OHKOed by pretty much everything unless it focuses on a 252 HP / 252 set, choosing one of its defenses to maximize. But in that case, Delibird becomes way too slow to actually do anything in return.
Vital Spirit and Hustle are interesting abilities: with Hustle, the still-perfectly accurate Aerial Ace becomes about 90% as strong as Salamence's (assuming Adamant natures) and it makes Focus Punch 2HKO a large set of Pokemon, including bulky Rock-types. 80% accuracy is shaky at best, and in order to make Hustle Delibird a real threat it would need +6 Evasion and +1 Attack at least. With these kind of boosts, Stantler would be a better sweeper still with STAB Return and decent Ghost/Ground coverage.
Vital Spirit, on the other hand, makes Delibird one of the funniest counters in the game to Sleep move + Dream Eater sets (e.g. Jynx) and a decent switch into Breloom after Intimidate.
Stantler, unlike Delibird, can seriously contribute to a team. It has a fantastic ability in Intimidate and an interesting stats/movepool combination that enables it to perform different roles such as a moderately bulky crippler (Thunder Wave, Sand-Attack, Skill Swap, Thief, Hypnosis) or a Double Team / Calm Mind sweeper or a PP-reducer/staller using Spite or a reasonably strong Choice Band user. Even a flinch set including Thunder Wave and STAB Stomp could be hard to deal with given some Evasion boosts. Making a good EV distribution for Stantler is the challenging part.
Given these attributes, what's the best third? Well, that depends greatly on the strategy you choose. Here's what came to my mind:
Jingle Bells (Delibird) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Endure
- Substitute
Delibird has two purposes at the same time: Icy Wind anything that outspeeds Articuno, possibly by using Endure first, and steal Quick Claws from the likes of Regirock, Snorlax, Armaldo and Metagross. This set does those things, although there's always a possibility of getting para'd by Thunderbolt while you Endure, or being outsped on the turn you want to use Thief. Substitute is a filler to scout e.g. Swords Dance Marowak, and also to stall a bit of PP in the process. If possible, keep Delibird alive so it can possibly steal a Leftovers later.
Blue Christmas (Articuno) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Haze
- Rest
Articuno surely fits the Christmas theme. This is the tried-and-true staller from my mono Ice-team, although it can't afford to run only 122 Speed here, as unlike Jynx, Delibird won't be able to Icy Wind Jolteon twice. Therefore this Articuno is notably less bulky than the original one. A formidable staller, capable of depleting all PP of most Pokemon without breaking a sweat and leave the field at 100% health to come back in later and do another round of stalling. Haze makes sure Stantler comes in against a neutral Struggle no matter what.
For Stantler, there's a couple of movesets that work decently. The first one I tried is Sub/DT/Thunder Wave, Return. Articuno re-stalls paralyzed Ghost-types and actually anything else that Return doesn't beat provided they're not too lucky. You're stuck against some Leftovers Pokemon such as Registeel and Regirock, though. Also, Poison Point is nasty against this.
Another option is to run Sub/Stomp/Thunder Wave/Spite if you're ready to for flinch stall.
The best one IMO is Sub/DT/Calm Mind/BITE, as the 40 PP Bite hits everything at least and with a couple of SpA EVs you can 3HKO most things at +6. Against some stuff you have to go back to Articuno ofc, such as Umbreon and Blissey, but most of the opponents Stantler can't beat with this set are quite passive and easy for Articuno to switch into and outstall.
A funny in-between non-serious idea I had is to try and let Delibird be the sweeper. I decided to lead with a crippler Stantler and the evil creation "Oh Mary": the Zapdos set from the mono-Electric team that now passes a Liechi boost instead of a Ganlon boost. With +6 Evasion and +1 Attack, Substitute Hustle Delibird is really a force to be reckoned with. The best thing of all: it lets you use PRESENT (with only 0.9*0.8=0.72 accuracy) since it's a joke attempt anyway. Most Pokemon that resist Aerial Ace and Focus Punch, such as Zapdos, won't be happy on average when they receive their PRESENT. On a more serious note, HP[Ground/Rock] and Return are probably the best fillers.
The second 'real' attempt was to completely sacrifice the 'bad' Pokemon in order to setup a sweeper. Since both Delibird and Stantler will likely not survive the setup, this sweeper has to cover most Frontier Pokemon on its own. A natural candidate here is DDmence, because it provides another Intimidate user and boosts its Speed as well.
It turns out that Stantler and Delibird can't cripple reliably enough, and DDMence fails to setup on many opponents still, such as Clear Body Pokemon (most importantly Metagross of course) and relies too much on evasion hax to get to +6. At +2 or +3 even, Salamence often still can't finish its job. Another candidate is Suicune, and we arrive at the final team, although not in the double-sacrifice crippling fashion you might expect.
The final team: Coming Home for Christmas
Suicune might not be the unforgiving sweeper Salamence or Latios can be, but it requires far less support to actually setup given its formidable bulk. At +6, it has very few counters as I've learned from the mono Water team. Also, the Pokemon it can't beat without losing too much of its PP have low Attack, which enables to switch into their Struggle so Suicune can come back to setup to +3 before they succumb to their Toxic infliction.
Stantler @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 172 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Sand-Attack
- Thief
- Skill Swap
Stantler is still the lead of choice, sporting Intimidate as usual. Thunder Wave enables Suicune to outspeed everything and gives free turns (not good when I Protect, but very good when I Substitute, which eventually happens anyway). Also it allows Stantler itself to outspeed their lead, so I can further cripple with Sand-Attack. If they get fully paralyzed when Stantler is still alive, it's usually GG already. Skill Swap is surprisingly useful: Levitate from Flygon/Claydol, Volt Absorb from Jolteon (it always lives Jolteon4's crit Thunderbolt), and even Pressure from Double Teamers like Suicune and Articuno are great abilities to steal, and Stantler's intimidate gives them nothing in return. Oh yeah, it removes Water Absorb as well from the likes of Vaporeon, Lapras and Quagsire (which Stantler importantly outspeeds) to turn it against them.
Sitrus Berry allows Stantler to survive two Espeon Psychics 87% of the time, which lets it use Thunder Wave twice: one to remove a potential Lum Berry and one to actually paralyze it (unless Synchronize paralysis gets me before I can use the second Thunder Wave). When it is consumed, I can use Thief to remove Quick Claws from dangerous opponents like Rhydon or Steelix (the latter can be dangerous because of Explosion). Sitrus Berry is really good here: it turns so many 2HKOs into 3HKOs with high probability (also for example Rhydon's EQ at -1). I feel like it's made for this Stantler to give it the bulk it deserves. Of course, you can get unlucky with Sitrus Berry if they get a low-roll first and a very high roll after many scenarios such as the above. But I think this spread 'uniformly' optimizes the probabilities against most opponents.
This explains the EV spread as well; 4 Speed EVs lets it outspeed Nidoking, which is always a good bonus since I can't paralyze it.
A good alternative to Thief is Roar, for example against the SD+Agility+Baton Pass Scizor, or a Swords Dance Armaldo for example. Still, Thief pairs really well with Sitrus Berry and usually Suicune can still setup/stall against boosted opponents if they are paralyzed. Roar would also definitely make my life easier against Marowak, because usually I can't use Thief (it will use SD until it can KO with Earthquake). Luckily, Sand-Attack nails it and the aforementioned Scizor to an extent.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 140 HP / 156 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Surf
The star of the team, and the least-requirement non-Uber sweeper ADV has to offer (sorry Snorlax and Tyranitar). This Suicune is quite speedy because Intimidate reduces the need for physical bulk a little, and I really want to outspeed Lati@s before they get a Calm Mind in. In order to outspeed Anabel's Latios, I have to run 132 Speed at least. Jolteon4 will be paralyzed anyway because Stantler always lives its assaults, and Modest Jolteon will get crippled by Delibird if blasts through Stantler somehow. So the rest goes into bulk: 193 is a perfect Leftovers number and also gives it some special bulk, giving Suicune's Substitute a chance to survive not-so-powerful Psychics after a Calm Mind, for example. With this spread, Suicune's Substitute survives 170+ Metagross' Earthquake about 2/3 of the time, which is enough since it will have many opportunities. At +6, only STAB Thunders can break its Sub on the special side (without a crit of course).
Not much else to say about Suicune, I think it explains itself pretty well. Be careful with your Surf PP against the likes of Milotic if there's still a third Pokemon waiting. Inspired by the Bite special-sweeping Stantler on the stall team, I actually considered using BITE over Surf because it hits everything and has 40 PP, but this creates more problems than it solves.
And now... the failsafe and "glue" of the team!
Delibird @ Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Endure
- Icy Wind
- Thief
- Toxic
Delibird provides two-fold support: firstly, it can sacrifice itself to save the setup BEFORE sending in Suicune by grabbing a Quick Claw from something really dangerous or by Icy Winding a Pokemon Stantler failed to cripple through hax (e.g. said Espeon) with Endure + Thief/Icy Wind.
The other, most important role is to come in against a Struggling opponent Suicune doesn't have the PP for to kill, use Toxic, and switch right back to Suicune, which enables it to setup to +3 again before the last Pokemon is sent out. This is of vital importance against 2nd Pokemon Water Absorbers, Blissey, Amnesia Regice and Double Team (or even just the Calm Mind one) Suicune. This is why it has 252 Def; it maximizes Delibird's survivability on the physical side and prevents dealing too much recoil damage. Secondly, it gives Delibird a chance to survive Cross Chops and even Breloom's Focus Punch sometimes after Intimidate, should you decide to switch to Breloom on turn 1 of the battle.
Toxic only has a (1-0.85*0.33)^8 = 7.2% chance to miss eight times against a Double Team + Pressure opponent like Suicune. Other Double Team Pressure users are OHKOed or 2HKOed by Suicune itself, such as Registeel and Zapdos. Non-Pressure Double Teamers that Surf can't beat are handled by Toxic 99.5% of the time and are rare anyway. Note that Toxic is better than its alternative, Aerial Ace, because Delibird won't win the 1v1 against a Struggler with AA most of the time lol, even if it has abysmal Attack such as Lapras or Suicune.
The Anabel strategy
Anabel is bad news. The only way you can win without relying on a critical hit Surf is as follows:
1) Thunder Wave Raikou two times to burn through its Lum Berry. This is always possible if you don't get crit.
2) Stall out the Thunderbolts with Suicune.
3) Stall out the rest of its moves by switching between Delibird and Suicune.
4) Leave Delibird in once it runs out of Rest and bring it down to approximately a quarter of its health with Thief and Icy Wind. DON'T USE TOXIC.
5) When Raikou starts to Struggle, setup Suicune to +6 and let it kill itself with Struggle or finish it off with Surf if you have plenty PP.
6) Stall out Latios' attacking PP and Recover (it saves redundant CM's for last, fortunately) and finish it with approximately 8 Surfs. Make sure you have at least 2 Surf PP left for Snorlax. This is always possible if you haven't wasted PP against Raikou.
7) 2HKO the Snorlax; it will use Curse on turn 1.
All in all, I think what makes this team really effective is Delibird having this double role and therefore it will be capable of helping either in the beginning or in the end --if needed-- no matter what. The most dangerous scenario is when you need Delibird to use Icy Wind, because then you can't help Suicune anymore when it's stuck against these Water Absorb or Blissey-like Pokemon, and even if you can stall them out, you might have to face a third Pokemon with only Struggle as an offensive move. I guess this is why Suicune's Attack IV shouldn't be zero. This team making double use of Berry + Thief is pretty original I think. Also I think it's funny that Santa actually STEALS items.
The team does all it can to prevent Special sweepers from ruining the fun; something I've seen many people talk about on the forum ("hope you don't face a Guitarist", etc). The main issue is probably that Stantler is a little slow, but it hasn't posed problems for me yet. It has decent chances even against terrible matchups, like Snorlax, Metagross and Zapdos.
Here's the 98--105 footage;
there were some interesting scenarios with Water Absorb Lapras and Rest Kingdra. I didn't play optimally. Against Anabel I usually try to fire off a couple of Surfs at the beginning, because a crit or Anabel failing to use Recover in time can make the game a lot faster. This happened in the video too.
Currently the team sits at 126 wins and I'm planning on doing a live stream if appreciated.
Sadly, only two people have taken the challenge which, although they both have done an excellent job, is still a bit disappointing. I'll take the blame for this, since the format of the challenge was maybe not quite accessible enough for many. I hope that the person who wins this challenge will come up with something that will interest more people.
On a related note, since we only have two participants and they can only vote for eachother it would be nice if some non-participant could vote as well so we can make a decision. I will cast a vote myself, but it would feel a bit awkward if my single vote decides the challenge.
On my case, due to time constraints, involvement on other projects (including one that I will make public here) and me working overtime at my job have prevented me from participating and I'm really bummed not being able to be a part of it since we even discussed with Actaeon some spreads that could be used on the Discord.
I can do the judgement part at the least since you're looking for someone. It will also be a nice opportunity to use what Adedede and Actaeon have worked into it so far. Again, really sorry for missing out! You actually added other requirements which should've made it more accessible so you have no fault on this.
I'd like to post a few more hints I came up with on using the team; I learned some of these the 'hard way' during the road to 301 with my team; the analysis wtset posted is slightly outdated, i.e. for the Anabel fight. Good luck to those wanting to test out the team; it's quite solid as some viewers on Discord have already seen.
- Against most opponents, especially if they outspeed Suicune, use Thunder Wave first and then start Sand-Attacking. Also if they don't outspeed, Sand-Attack + Thunder Wave gives better odds of them not being able to use anything than using Sand-Attack twice. If Stantler gets below half and consumes its Sitrus Berry, you can use Thief in the cases of Quick Claw, or if they have Leftovers and have a really bad typing for Suicune to destroy even at +6 like Ludicolo (more on Ludicolo below). If you still live after using Thief, proceed by using Sand-Attack or even Thunder Wave if they're at -6 already and if they still have a move that could cripple Suicune, even if it's risking a burn from Flamethrower, for example.
- Against some Fighting-types and/or Guts Pokemon it's better to use Sand-Attack first, such as Machamp, Ursaring and Heracross. Stantler survives a non-crit Cross Chop and with -1 Accuracy, chances are it won't even hit the first or second Cross Chop. If they're at -2 or -3 accuracy, it's safe to use Thunder Wave even if it lets them break Suicune's substitute in one hit; they'll quickly have PP issues and will miss a Substitute eventually. Use Thief if you see a Quick Claw set and get the chance to use it; Suicune doesn't want to eat critical hit Cross Chops.
- It might be tempting to use Skill Swap against Flash Fire Pokemon, but most of them have second abilities; use Twave and Sand-Attack as usual, although non-Double Edge Flareon can't touch Stantler if you get Flash Fire.
- Use Skill Swap against Vaporeon, Quagsire, Lapras, Flygon and Jolteon before crippling them any further.
- Use Thunder Wave against Espeon, Sceptile and Starmie like you would against any other fast lead; Sitrus Berry avoids getting 2HKOed over 87% of the time so you can waste their Lum Berry and paralyze them after (in case you get unlucky with paralysis against Synchronize Espeon or Leaf Blade crits from Sceptile, there's always Endure + Icy Wind Delibird to the rescue).
- Against Natural Cure Pokemon (i.e. Altaria, Blissey and Starmie) it's a good idea to use Skill Swap after you paralyze them, because they might switch out otherwise. The Accuracy drop isn't really necessary against them anyway.
- Some Perish Song users surprisingly lose to Delibird because of Vital Spirit; switch in Delibird after you Thunder Wave them (and if you see Perish Song), then switch back to Stantler when they use Mean Look and paralyse the next Pokemon as well. There's other ways to deal with this if you wish.
- Ludicolo-593 and Ludicolo-689 have Double Team, Leech Seed, Rain Dance and either Toxic or Leech Seed. This means Suicune might waste all of its PP trying to crash them down with Surf, which is a losing scenario. Not realising the threat at first, it resulted in a battle that didn't fit on my frontier pass, but eventually I won it. Strategy on lead: don't use Thunder Wave with Stantler but instead use Sand-Attack and possibly Skill Swap. If Stantler gets below half, try to steal its Leftovers before stalling out the rest of its moves with Suicune. Waste as few PPs as possible by switching to Delibird on turns Ludicolo wastes Double Teams, for example. Then when it has +6 evasion and is using Struggle with imperfect accuracy at -1 Attack, use Toxic with Delibird. It only has a 0.5% chance of missing all 16 Toxics, lol. Even in that scenario, you could steal Leftovers and beat Ludicolo with +6 Surfs with good probability to have Surf PP left. Note that Delibird can only steal after it gets to 25% health itself.
- The same strategy applies to the Double Team Leftovers annoy Suicune. Also use Skill Swap if you can, since that more or less guarantees hitting Toxic eventually.
- Houndoom-523 has Lum with Modest Nature and Fire Blast + Crunch + Roar + Rest, outspeeding Suicune. You'd be tempted to use Sand-Attack instead of Thunder Wave because Houndoom 2HKOes Stantler despite Lum Berry (something not many Pokemon can do), but the good thing here is that all other Houndoom sets are beaten by using Thunder Wave, and even this particular one doesn't use Fire Blast against Suicune (it favors Crunch). So usually Suicune can safely set up a Calm Mind, making its Substitute unbreakable. This is all OK unless you get crit on the first Crunch I think. Note that Intimidate scouts the White Herb sets.
- Metagross is an interesting lead, because what do you choose between Skill Swap and Thunder Wave on turn 1? Also, it's a Thief candidate. But Stantler hasn't got the time for all of this because it gets 2HKOed by Meteor Mash. I usually lead off with Thunder Wave, scouting out the Lum Berry set as well (which isn't dangerous). Thunder Wave always helps, even if it has Quick Claw or crits through Stantler. Then if it uses Meteor Mash (all other moves give away more of the set and don't often 2HKO Stantler), I usually use Thief if there's still a possibility of Quick Claw. Then if I have time left, Skill Swap + Sand-Attack or even Skill Swap + sack Delibird + Intimidate + Sand-Attack are viable roads to a good setup probability. Gogogo, 2-turn Growl. In any scenario, play very conservatively and un-greedy with Suicune; Protect every other turn and keep your health as high as possible while Metagross wastes PP. In other words, enter the "protect even if you have a free-move Sub up"-mode. Did I mention already that this Suicune Substitute survives a 170+ EQ about 2/3 of the time? That's exactly the reason I couldn't make Suicune faster than it currently is (although it would REALLY be nice to outspeed more Heracross sets).
- Snorlax: use Sand-Attack instead of Thunder Wave. And Thief when you can, of course.
- Outstall Raikou, carefully keep track when it runs out of Thunderbolt PP because that's when you stop wasting Suicune PP as well. Switch back and forth with Delibird. Oh yeah, be sure to Skill Swap Pressure if you get the chance, before Stantler faints. And don't forget to count two Thunderbolts when used against Pressure Stantler.
- When it runs out of Rest, use Toxic with Delibird regardless of what I said in the original post. You don't need to get to +6, that's why.
- Calm Mind up alongside Latios, while stalling out its attacking PP with Protect and Substitute. Don't ever use Surf before it's out of Recover.
- It will use all of its Recover PP before grinding down its Calm Mind PP; that's when you start using Surf and ~9HKO the Latios unless you crit somewhere. Brightpowder is scary; be sure to keep Surf PP as high as possible.
- 2HKO Snorlax with Surf (it'll only use Return or Curse on its first turn).
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Just wanted to share a thought experiment for another Double Battles team; I tried to make an offensive team including Ditto.
It transforms into DDMence, so then it has Choice Band and a Dragon Dance boost to finish things off.
Metagross included for type synergy and Latios for coverage, really simple and surprisingly effective.
Intimidate makes it so that Calm Ditto actually survives a lot of things!
It transforms into DDMence, so then it has Choice Band and a Dragon Dance boost to finish things off.
Metagross included for type synergy and Latios for coverage, really simple and surprisingly effective.
Intimidate makes it so that Calm Ditto actually survives a lot of things!
My vote goes to Actaeon as well, the team he built and the success he's had with it are an amazing achievement considering the restrictions.
As a quick note, I think it's very interesting that despite their teams consisting of the same three Pokemon, you can still see a ton of "team-building personality" in both Adedede's and Actaeon's team: Protect+Sub stalling with such weak Pokemon is an idea not many people would come up with and at least in my opinion, has Adedede's signature written all over it. Meanwhile, in Actaeon's team you can see the optimization and attentions to detail that is very typical for him; every single move has a distinct but still important function in making the team work.
Since Actaeon is probably going to win this challenge (the voting deadline is two hours from now), I'm very excited to see what he comes up with for the next one!
As a quick note, I think it's very interesting that despite their teams consisting of the same three Pokemon, you can still see a ton of "team-building personality" in both Adedede's and Actaeon's team: Protect+Sub stalling with such weak Pokemon is an idea not many people would come up with and at least in my opinion, has Adedede's signature written all over it. Meanwhile, in Actaeon's team you can see the optimization and attentions to detail that is very typical for him; every single move has a distinct but still important function in making the team work.
Since Actaeon is probably going to win this challenge (the voting deadline is two hours from now), I'm very excited to see what he comes up with for the next one!
I will give my vote to Actaeon as well. I didn't had the chance to play much but Sub/Protect Suicune is something I messed before since I helped Thomaz make a team to exploit it. Both are almost the same but I do feel that Actaeon's is basically the upgraded version of Adedede's team and it's pretty reliable. The team is massively Suicune-dependant but it does makes very good use of Stantler who's a pretty decent crippler and even Delibird can fill its niche on this team. The only weakness is Jolteon 4 which is pretty much an immediate loss but only if Jolteon gets a lucky flinch on Stantler (courtesy of King's Rock).
Metagross is a tricky match-up because Stantler can do a lot of things but you only got two turns since Meteor Mash 2HKOs. I think that if Metagross shows up as a lead, the best play is to Skill Swap and hard switch into Suicune to scout the set with Protect. Suicune will easily beat the mixed ones since it has Protect and Calm Mind to offset the damage. It can also allow Stantler to cycle back and reduce it's attack making it easier to set up Subs without needing to fully cripple it. This is just my thoughts on this matchup though.
In the end, both have a lot of thought and creativity invested but I'm going with Actaeon considering that the team is solid and it actually involves having Delibird some usage.
Metagross is a tricky match-up because Stantler can do a lot of things but you only got two turns since Meteor Mash 2HKOs. I think that if Metagross shows up as a lead, the best play is to Skill Swap and hard switch into Suicune to scout the set with Protect. Suicune will easily beat the mixed ones since it has Protect and Calm Mind to offset the damage. It can also allow Stantler to cycle back and reduce it's attack making it easier to set up Subs without needing to fully cripple it. This is just my thoughts on this matchup though.
In the end, both have a lot of thought and creativity invested but I'm going with Actaeon considering that the team is solid and it actually involves having Delibird some usage.
Thanks for all the votes and kind words so far! I'm working on a hopefully fun and diverse challenge!
The fast Jolteon luckily doesn't 2HKO Stantler without haxing through! But yeah, Jolteon and Metagross are both opponents I'm very afraid of. Note that Modest Jolteon gets outsped by Cune after Icy Wind shenanigans if needed.
wtset how about we make a new challenge but this time, we spice things up? I have an idea of us making teams representing a region.
Team Red: Players who join Team Kanto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Kanto region only.
Team Gold: Players who join Team Johto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Johto region only.
Team Emerald: Players who join Team Kanto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Hoenn region only.
I had been thinking on a point based system where every amount of win on a streak gains the team some points and after a period of time, the team with the most points win. Any additional thoughts?
Team Red: Players who join Team Kanto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Kanto region only.
Team Gold: Players who join Team Johto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Johto region only.
Team Emerald: Players who join Team Kanto will only be able to use Pokemon from the Hoenn region only.
I had been thinking on a point based system where every amount of win on a streak gains the team some points and after a period of time, the team with the most points win. Any additional thoughts?
Since Actaeon won the last challenge, it's up to him to decide on the next one and since he is already working on something, I would feel a bit uncomfortable interfering, especially because I'm very confident he's going to come up with something nice.
Besides that, I really like the idea, a region-locked challenge is something I thought about as well that I can imagine leading to some creative ideas. Although I think some further restriction would be needed since otherwise the strategies are going to be too similar to what we already have on the leaderboard (some of the teams either already consist of Pokemon out of one region only, or can be easily modified into a slightly weaker version that fits the requirement by swapping out one member).
The team format could indeed spice things up a bit and would probably also boost the participation/exchange of ideas aspect, but I'm not sure on how to solve the problem of all members of a team just using the same strategy (the best one the team can come up with), especially with your proposed point system.
I think that the team idea might work changing a bit what Kommo-o had in mind:
Each team might have one (or more) Kanto / Johto / Hoenn spot(s) in its roster, and then players have to be assigned by team leader to the facility he thinks they are most suited for/they ask for.
For the player selection, a draft like Smogon big team tournaments' ones can be done.
A check for streak validity should be required (for example, playing while streaming on Discord like Actaeon did with the Christmas team)
It would take time and effort, but it'd definitely spice things up and light up interest on the thread and Gen III in general!
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After winning the second of wtset's entertaining challenges, I was given the honor of posting the next challenge. After messing around with several funny ideas, this challenge was a hard choice to make, but I'll keep the others to myself for now! It's an emulator challenge, as it sadly won't be entirely possible to play this challenge in-game. On the positive side, this makes it easier to experiment and implement!
The Pike King Challenge
A terrifying event, yes a horrible one, is about to befall you... Pike Queen Lucy invites you to crawl through the insidious Battle Pike, only by using Pokemon that have a clear snake-like appearance in every streak. The following 8 Pokemon are allowed (the last row contains basestat totals):
Every one of these 9 snakes is allowed to have only one moveset during the entire challenge, so you can't have a Milotic1 with Surf, Ice Beam, Recover and Toxic and use another Milotic2 with Rest, Sleep Talk, Surf and Ice Beam for example. Also, the EV's you pick for each Pokemon must remain constant throughout the challenge. Pick your movesets wisely to maximize "universal synergy", and note how you can still choose which Pokemon gets Leftovers, Choice Band, Lum Berry and other items between different streaks.
Every streak of 10 rooms has to be played with a different team (of course, Arbok/Gyarados/Dragonair is considered different from Arbok/Gyarados/Dunsparce). There are 8!/(3!*5!) = 56 different teams you can make with these 8 snakes. The NFEs Ekans, Onix and Dratini were first considered for this challenge for a total of 165 teams, but then you'd be stuck with them too far in the challenge.
Speaking of Rayquaza: isn't it banned from the Battle Frontier? Of course it is, but for this special occasion Pike Queen Lucy has made an exception to reward your bravery. Level 50 (which is illegal, but we're cheating anyway) and Open Level are both fine, although Rayquaza learns Extremespeed at level 60 if you want to use that. Here's a way to alter your ROM so you can take this challenge on emulator:
I don't really know how much time we should take for this challenge, as 8 movesets have to be considered and it might take some time to "get far enough". Share ideas and we will pick the final date together.
Here's a list of possible teams:
The Pike King Challenge
A terrifying event, yes a horrible one, is about to befall you... Pike Queen Lucy invites you to crawl through the insidious Battle Pike, only by using Pokemon that have a clear snake-like appearance in every streak. The following 8 Pokemon are allowed (the last row contains basestat totals):
| Arbok | Gyarados | Dragonair | Dunsparce | Steelix | Seviper | Milotic | Rayquaza |
| 438 | 540 | 420 | 415 | 510 | 458 | 540 | 680 |
Every one of these 9 snakes is allowed to have only one moveset during the entire challenge, so you can't have a Milotic1 with Surf, Ice Beam, Recover and Toxic and use another Milotic2 with Rest, Sleep Talk, Surf and Ice Beam for example. Also, the EV's you pick for each Pokemon must remain constant throughout the challenge. Pick your movesets wisely to maximize "universal synergy", and note how you can still choose which Pokemon gets Leftovers, Choice Band, Lum Berry and other items between different streaks.
Every streak of 10 rooms has to be played with a different team (of course, Arbok/Gyarados/Dragonair is considered different from Arbok/Gyarados/Dunsparce). There are 8!/(3!*5!) = 56 different teams you can make with these 8 snakes. The NFEs Ekans, Onix and Dratini were first considered for this challenge for a total of 165 teams, but then you'd be stuck with them too far in the challenge.
Speaking of Rayquaza: isn't it banned from the Battle Frontier? Of course it is, but for this special occasion Pike Queen Lucy has made an exception to reward your bravery. Level 50 (which is illegal, but we're cheating anyway) and Open Level are both fine, although Rayquaza learns Extremespeed at level 60 if you want to use that. Here's a way to alter your ROM so you can take this challenge on emulator:
I don't really know how much time we should take for this challenge, as 8 movesets have to be considered and it might take some time to "get far enough". Share ideas and we will pick the final date together.
Here's a list of possible teams:
1 Arbok Dragonair Dunsparce
2 Dragonair Dunsparce Seviper
3 Arbok Dunsparce Seviper
4 Arbok Dragonair Seviper
5 Dragonair Dunsparce Steelix
6 Arbok Dunsparce Steelix
7 Arbok Dragonair Steelix
8 Gyarados Dragonair Dunsparce
9 Dragonair Dunsparce Milotic
10 Dunsparce Steelix Seviper
11 Dragonair Steelix Seviper
12 Arbok Gyarados Dunsparce
13 Arbok Dunsparce Milotic
14 Arbok Gyarados Dragonair
15 Arbok Dragonair Milotic
16 Arbok Steelix Seviper
17 Gyarados Dunsparce Seviper
18 Dunsparce Milotic Seviper
19 Gyarados Dragonair Seviper
20 Dragonair Milotic Seviper
21 Arbok Gyarados Seviper
22 Arbok Milotic Seviper
23 Gyarados Dunsparce Steelix
24 Dunsparce Steelix Milotic
25 Gyarados Dragonair Steelix
26 Dragonair Steelix Milotic
27 Arbok Gyarados Steelix
28 Arbok Steelix Milotic
29 Gyarados Dunsparce Milotic
30 Gyarados Dragonair Milotic
31 Gyarados Steelix Seviper
32 Steelix Milotic Seviper
33 Dragonair Dunsparce Rayquaza
34 Arbok Gyarados Milotic
35 Arbok Dunsparce Rayquaza
36 Arbok Dragonair Rayquaza
37 Gyarados Milotic Seviper
38 Dunsparce Rayquaza Seviper
39 Dragonair Rayquaza Seviper
40 Arbok Rayquaza Seviper
41 Gyarados Steelix Milotic
42 Dunsparce Steelix Rayquaza
43 Dragonair Steelix Rayquaza
44 Arbok Steelix Rayquaza
45 Gyarados Dunsparce Rayquaza
46 Dunsparce Milotic Rayquaza
47 Gyarados Dragonair Rayquaza
48 Dragonair Milotic Rayquaza
49 Steelix Rayquaza Seviper
50 Arbok Gyarados Rayquaza
51 Arbok Milotic Rayquaza
52 Gyarados Rayquaza Seviper
53 Milotic Rayquaza Seviper
54 Gyarados Steelix Rayquaza
55 Steelix Milotic Rayquaza
56 Gyarados Milotic Rayquaza
2 Dragonair Dunsparce Seviper
3 Arbok Dunsparce Seviper
4 Arbok Dragonair Seviper
5 Dragonair Dunsparce Steelix
6 Arbok Dunsparce Steelix
7 Arbok Dragonair Steelix
8 Gyarados Dragonair Dunsparce
9 Dragonair Dunsparce Milotic
10 Dunsparce Steelix Seviper
11 Dragonair Steelix Seviper
12 Arbok Gyarados Dunsparce
13 Arbok Dunsparce Milotic
14 Arbok Gyarados Dragonair
15 Arbok Dragonair Milotic
16 Arbok Steelix Seviper
17 Gyarados Dunsparce Seviper
18 Dunsparce Milotic Seviper
19 Gyarados Dragonair Seviper
20 Dragonair Milotic Seviper
21 Arbok Gyarados Seviper
22 Arbok Milotic Seviper
23 Gyarados Dunsparce Steelix
24 Dunsparce Steelix Milotic
25 Gyarados Dragonair Steelix
26 Dragonair Steelix Milotic
27 Arbok Gyarados Steelix
28 Arbok Steelix Milotic
29 Gyarados Dunsparce Milotic
30 Gyarados Dragonair Milotic
31 Gyarados Steelix Seviper
32 Steelix Milotic Seviper
33 Dragonair Dunsparce Rayquaza
34 Arbok Gyarados Milotic
35 Arbok Dunsparce Rayquaza
36 Arbok Dragonair Rayquaza
37 Gyarados Milotic Seviper
38 Dunsparce Rayquaza Seviper
39 Dragonair Rayquaza Seviper
40 Arbok Rayquaza Seviper
41 Gyarados Steelix Milotic
42 Dunsparce Steelix Rayquaza
43 Dragonair Steelix Rayquaza
44 Arbok Steelix Rayquaza
45 Gyarados Dunsparce Rayquaza
46 Dunsparce Milotic Rayquaza
47 Gyarados Dragonair Rayquaza
48 Dragonair Milotic Rayquaza
49 Steelix Rayquaza Seviper
50 Arbok Gyarados Rayquaza
51 Arbok Milotic Rayquaza
52 Gyarados Rayquaza Seviper
53 Milotic Rayquaza Seviper
54 Gyarados Steelix Rayquaza
55 Steelix Milotic Rayquaza
56 Gyarados Milotic Rayquaza
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Completely understandable. My thoughts were on making a draft style selection so that the players within a team can't pick up the same Pokemon. (It would be boring if the three members of Team Johto all had Suicune & Blissey). We could make the goal post like teams submitting their streaks and every win counts as points and after all of them are submitted, they are added to a team's total and the team with the highest amount of points win. We could also make the whole thing for all the facilities to add for the excitement. Of course, I'm more than happy to discuss once's Actaeon's challenge is over or later.
Very cool challenge, I love the theme! I also think Pike is one of the most under-explored facilities we have. I have some doubts about the inclusion of Rayquaza though, what exactly was your reasoning behind it? If it is to make the challenge easier, I don't think that the difficulty of the challenge should matter much (as long as it doesn't make it super frustrating) since all competitors are stuck with the same hard difficulty. If it is to get more possible combinations of teams/rounds, from my own experience in the Pike I can tell you that 560 rounds is plenty as well. Or was it just to include all snake-like Pokemon? In addition, the ROM altering part probably isn't that trivial to perform for everyone.
Just wanted to share my thoughts, you're of course free to leave the challenge as it is. I will participate in the challenge anyways as I think it's going to be much fun to find sets for all these Pokemon and I am very excited to start working on it!
A draft indeed sounds like a good solution to the problem, especially combined with Adedede's suggestion on how to allocate the teams, maybe we could even decide on the teams themselves (the ones consisting of participants, not Pokemon) by draft, to guarantee a fair competition. I'm not too sure about the use of streak numbers to decide who wins, but I also see how a voting system could be difficult to make work in an environment where there will probably be a fairly low number of teams.
Glad you like the theme, thank you wtset! I thought the inclusion of Rayquaza would be funny, because it's not even that much better than Salamence in the tower, and makes us think about a Pokemon we never made movesets for. Its high versatility from mixed sweeper to DD to CB to Special sweeper makes it hard to build a universal set for but I think it can glue some weaker teams together as well.
Apart from that, I thought most players would enjoy the experience of bringing an uber to the Frontier in a legit challenge.
If any Pokemon should be ditched so we get 560 it's probably Onix IMO, unless implementing Rayquaza is really an obstacle for players like you said.
Apart from that, I thought most players would enjoy the experience of bringing an uber to the Frontier in a legit challenge.
If any Pokemon should be ditched so we get 560 it's probably Onix IMO, unless implementing Rayquaza is really an obstacle for players like you said.
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