General Dubs Meta Discussion II

#51
One BIG issue with this set that VGC players don't have to worry about is Shaymin-S. For me this is too big a threat to be outsped by consdering it's a OHKO either way, and if you want to outrun it you have to go Jolly (max speed Adamant is an exact tie, oddly enough), which sucks a bit. Maybe Ice Shard is actually worth consideration on your current set, to retain the current power while also being able to beat Shaymin-S; certainly worth slashing over one of the other ice moves, which are a little redundant together. (Also ice shard can be used to kill Deoxys-A).
 
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#52
One BIG issue with this set that VGC players don't have to worry about is Shaymin-S. For me this is too big a threat to be outsped by consdering it's a OHKO either way, and if you want to outrun it you have to go Jolly (max speed Adamant is an exact tie, oddly enough), which sucks a bit. Maybe Ice Shard is actually worth consideration on your current set, to retain the current power while also being able to beat Shaymin-S; certainly worth slashing over one of the other ice moves, which are a little redundant together.
In actuality, they are not all that redundant. The goal of Mean's set was to reliably beat all of the various genie sets. While Icicle Crash can take down bulky Thundurus, Icicle Spear was needed to break through either Sash or Yache on Landorus-T, so he needed both in order to KO both of the genies depending on which he faced.
 
#53
Anyways, Arash's team also has Sunny Day Latios, which me, being the well-known troller of teams via Sunny Day, happen to like a lot. Here is an exact copy of his set:


Latios (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
IVs: 31 HP/2 Atk/31 Def /30 SAtk /31 SDef /30 Spd
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Draco Meteor
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Fire]

The first thing I would like to say is that a spread of 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 248 Spe would have been better, because at lv50, the IV change to 30 will make 248 and 252 hit the same stat, so you might as well make the most of it and put the other EVs into the defenses. Second off, I will ask what you people think of this set (I'm not going to say much, I am clearly heavily biased :] )
 
#54
Sunny Day Latios can be quite effective, although it's not just a weather counter. Outside of perhaps Chandelure and Heatran, Fire-types are few and far between in Doubles (Ninetales sux), so changing the weather to Sun can certainly throw opponents for a loop, especially if they're running a Rain check like Jellicent. It can easily backfire though, and on top of that it requires giving up an important coverage slot on some Pokemon, so it must be played carefully.

It's also a great way to fuck over Ferrothorn, who is a massive dick.
 
#56
This kind of damage is a bit high. Are you sure it wasn't a 4th gen calculator? In Doubles it is more like

252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 293-345 (97.01 - 114.23%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

Besides, Gyro Ball is slightly stronger:

252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 352-415 (116.55 - 137.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But then again, this is Doubles and Latios is not expected to take Ferrothorn on his own, so overriding rain still puts Ferrothorn under a risk of getting fried by Latios' partner.

Edit: Wrong Lati@s;

252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 323-380 (107.3 - 126.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
#57
Forgot to tick the Doubles box on that one, but how could I possibly plug Ferrothorn into a Gen4 Calc anyhow?

And ya, Gyro Ball does the job too, but Explosion can really screw up both opponents. That or Bulldoze, but Ground moves don't hit Latios, although Bulldoze will cleanly 2HKO Excadrill.
 
#58
I had no idea that CB Ferrothorn was a thing in Doubles. :eek:

Anyways, I made a team a while back featuring Liepard, one of the most underrated threats in Smogon Doubles, and have finally gotten around to using it. I happen to have a some nice replays showing its disruptive talents:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-smogondoubles-1676
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-smogondoubles-1687
(I haxed blank, I know, but it shows my other moveslots, so meh)

I have really enjoyed using it so far, and recommend some other people try it, as it really is a very effective choice for a team in need of its abilities (and is great for making the opposition pay for trying to use Cresselia against it).
 
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#59
I've decided to post every team I've successfully used in Doubles here. Not every single team - some of those have been pretty damn bad - but every team that was good at some point.

I started off with this team; having used a Mienshao/Musharna lead core in VGC '11 I decided to try it out here.
Musharna @ Leftovers
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Imprison

Mienshao @ Focus Sash
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Hi Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Wide Guard

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Normal Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Brick Break

Breloom @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Technician
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Helping Hand
This team got me to #8, which is actually the highest I've gotten on the Smogon Doubles ladder. However, at this time, the metagame was largely unsettled, and people were still trying things out. It was a wrecking ball back in the day, but once the metagame settled it did progressively worse. I wouldn't recommend it now - aside from Musharna and Mienshao themselves, this team is highly reliant on keeping up offensive momentum to succeed, and losing said momentum often resulted in a horrific loss. The team is mostly based around spamming powerful spread moves powered up by Musharna and/or Breloom's Helping Hand. This is actually an okay example of what not to do (especially the whole "not using Protect" thing). I considered revisiting it, but never did. Overall, a team with a good amount of wasted potential in the current metagame. 5/10

Once that team started dying, I tried to put together a new team faced around something fun. I really liked Gigalith aesthetically at the time (still do), and thought it had some potential, so I tried this out:
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Protect
- Superpower

Gigalith @ Passho Berry
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Superpower

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Skill Swap
- Gyro Ball
- Protect

Mew @ Iron Ball
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Fake Out
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Psychic

Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Earth Power
- Muddy Water
- Recover
- Sludge Bomb

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse
Now THIS team fared much better. The idea, obviously, was to sweep with Gigalith, by setting up Sand and Trick Room. While Gigalith itself didn't do quite as well (it was a nice hole puncher at least), I learned here that Eruption Heatran is truly devastating. Most of my sweeps were Eruptran sweeps. Bronzong was probably Heatran's favorite partner, giving the master volcano Levitate (and even Storm Drain in some cases). This is also my first team where I really customized the team itself to handle specific threats to the team - Sludge Bomb let Gastrodon do some damage to Ludicolo, Dragon Pulse hit Lati@s, and Gigalith's Passho Berry helped a bit against Rain (particularly Rotom-W). Overall, a pretty good team, but not exactly perfect. 6/10

Now then. Forget the silliness of Gigalith. Forget the mind-reading abilities of Musharna (for now). Stare in pure terror at the brutal efficiency of spamming a 100% accurate spread move with a base power of 120. Yep, this is it.
Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Protect

Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 20 Def / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Earth Power
- Protect / Dragon Pulse

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Sucker Punch / Feint

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 32 SDef / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Recover
- Scald
- Shadow Ball / Protect
- Trick Room

Genesect @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Blizzard
- U-turn
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
This is basically the best team I've ever built. Not just the best Doubles team I've ever built. The single best team I've ever built. In my semifinal matches against gr8astard in the original Doubles tournament, this team netted me my only victory (albeit with some hax involved). Hell, it even inspired a shitty OU spinoff. A Blizzspamming core of Kyurem and Abomasnow, a Goodstuffs lineup of Hitmontop, Jellicent, and the jack of all trades in the mighty Genesect. The idea is simple: kill all Ice resists, get rid of opposing weather, weaken everything else, and sweep with Kyurem's STAB Blizzard. Genesect is fantastic, jumping back and forth in the battle with U-Turn and its good typing, and even doing Kyurem's job on occasion. Honestly, this team just did a fantastic job at pretty much everything except dealing with Tailwind and certain Sun teams, although even those could be beaten. This team was at its peak around the time cstick posted his RMT with a Genesect in it as well, so it's not like I was the only one. It has issues with Chandelure TR teams though, as well as Volcarona. Both at the same time is absolute hell... Either way, I personally give this team a 10/10. I love it.

This is the only team I've revisited, and the slashes reflect that. I realized how cool Feint was for one, and Jellicent really needed Protect.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hail to the Chief's original retirement marked the end of an era for me, and I didn't make any successful teams for a while. Eventually I did though - let's get started on that!

This team was my second attempt to make a really good Manaphy team, and while the former was (unsuccessfully) based around sheer disruption, this one is more centered around a Manaphy sweep. That shit's deadly in Rain.
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Musharna (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Imprison
- Helping Hand
- Psychic

Riolu @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SDef
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Rain Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Feint

Toxicroak @ Payapa Berry
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

Salamence @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind

Thundurus (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 196 HP / 72 SAtk / 220 SDef / 20 Spd
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
Yes, that's not just a manual rain team, that's a manual rain team with a Riolu on it! I was originally attracted to Riolu for its Follow Me, which has higher priority than Fake Out when considering Prankster. Feint is also a generally useful move, and Hi Jump Kick makes it... not be Taunt bait? As for why this team has no Politoed: I hate that fucking frog and its stupid grin. I used to like you, Politoed. Then you got good and everyone used you. That expression isn't goofy any more, it's stupid. Anyway, this team is meant to support Manaphy as much as possible - rain to power it up, Musharna to avoid Surfs while stopping Trick Room and providing Helping Hand support, Toxicroak to disrupt and take Surfs, Salamence to mess with speed control, and Thundurus to fuck with everything. 6/10 because it's hard to pull everything together on the team though, but once Manaphy gets set up it's basically game over.

Once Follow Me Jirachi was released, I just knew I had to make a team around it. I figured Hydreigon would greatly appreciate what Jirachi brought - Follow Me and Icy Wind in particular. The rest followed.
Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SDef / 108 Spd
Calm Nature
- Helping Hand
- Follow Me
- Icy Wind
- Psychic

Hydreigon (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard

Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Recover
- Scald
- Trick Room
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
- Protect

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect
This is a pretty basic Goodstuffs team, really, designed more to stop the opponent than it is to get my own strategy through. It does a pretty damn good job at doing just that fairly consistently. Jellicent checks Trick Room, Tyranitar does that in addition to ending other weathers, Lando-T packs Intimidate and discourages DisQuake spam, Jirachi is just a badass, etc. 8/10 purely because it's not heavily matchup reliant (although Rain can be an issue) and it packs enough of punch to get through.

I have one last team to talk about. I've been working with Deoxys-A for the past week or so, and it's been a blast. That thing is just fucking powerful.
lol

you guys think I'm giving up my current team that quickly?

Here, have a song:

So that's my adventure through Doubles, documented via my best teams. If you've stuck with me this far, thanks for reading!
@Arcticblast - thanks for sharing your teams! One thing you could try for your first team is adding Protect > Helping Hand on Imprison Musharna so Mienshao can spam HJK without worries. Disabling Protect is pretty clutch in general, too.

As a fellow user of Tail Glow Manaphy, you're doing yourself a disservice by not running Politoed over Riolu. You have Manaphy, Thundurus, and Toxicroak - all Pokemon that benefits from Rain. You can also save a moveslot and item slot on Thundurus (and use Thunder). In the rain, +3 Manaphy's Surf can easily clean teams.

Also Parasect is the perfect partner for Manaphy. Rage Powder allows Parasect to soak up all the Grass- and Electric-type moves directed at Manphy that it resists. In the meantime Manaphy sets up Tail Glow. What makes this combo golden is that Manaphy heals Parasect 25% each time it spams +3 Surf in the rain. Dry Skin recovery from Surf and rain is 37% per turn, keeping Parasect alive to Rage Powder spam and sponge hits for that +3 Manaphy.

Here's a replay of Parasect & Manaphy in action

Anyways, Arash's team also has Sunny Day Latios, which me, being the well-known troller of teams via Sunny Day, happen to like a lot. Here is an exact copy of his set:


Latios (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
IVs: 31 HP/2 Atk/31 Def /30 SAtk /31 SDef /30 Spd
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Draco Meteor
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Fire]

The first thing I would like to say is that a spread of 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 248 Spe would have been better, because at lv50, the IV change to 30 will make 248 and 252 hit the same stat, so you might as well make the most of it and put the other EVs into the defenses. Second off, I will ask what you people think of this set (I'm not going to say much, I am clearly heavily biased :] )
@Nollan , Hmm do you happen to have a link showcasing his entire team? That would give me more context clues about this set.

I personally dislike how its ancillary move is a weak Hidden Power Fire, albeit boosted by Sunny Day. I also hate how this Latios cannot touch opposing Heatran, while Latios boosts Heatran offenses with Sunny Day x_x. Latios partner better be packing EQ or a strong Fighting offense to make short work of Heatran.

Also Liepard's Fake Out + Encore tactics looks super aggravating. Nice synergy with Swagger Cresselia, too. Great job making use of this technical mon, Nollan :cool:
 
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#61
I just wanted to share how phenomenal Jirachi is with the right synergy. This is the core I've been running with a good bit of success.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Protect

Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
Impish Nature
- Follow Me
- Meteor Mash
- Icy Wind
- Helping Hand


Jirachi can put virtually anything into OHKO range for Life Orb Hydreigon with Helping Hand. 1.95x boosted STAB Draco Meteor is a death sentence, the bulkiest of TR setters fall to Dark Pulse, and Earth Power messes up Jirachi, Metagross, Heatran and Tyranitar.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 398-468 (89.63 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Meanwhile, Jirachi helps Hydreigon with one of its biggest challenges, speed control. Icy Wind/Thunder Wave on a turn where Hydreigon Protects makes the playing field much more manageable. Finally, if the field is not safe from Draco Meteors, Outrages, Dragon Claws, Ice Shards, U-Turns, Close Combats, etc, Jirachi would be happy to take a hit for Hydreigon with Follow Me.


I like this duo because it isn't dedicated/gimmicky, has a lot of flexibility, and can work in support from other teammates. For example, Hitmontop works well with this duo by providing Fake Out support to Hydreigon, smashing everything Draco Meteor or Dark Pulse doesn't OHKO, and softening Fighting, Bug and physical Dragon attacks for Jirachi. Also, any glass cannon you run such as Deo-A can borrow Jirachi's support in a pinch, while KOing threats faster than Hydreigon before they move.

TL;DR doubles cores aren't all gimmicky and 1-dimensional


Edit: I also hate Nollan's team and his brilliantly clutch Protects/Detects.
 
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#62
I've been using a very similar core on a recent team of mine, and I can attest to its power:

Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SDef / 108 Spd
Calm Nature
- Helping Hand
- Follow Me
- Icy Wind
- Psychic

Hydreigon (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- Protect

While the Hydreigon set is easily variable, Follow Me Jirachi really has no other options - 108 Speed with Psychic makes Jirachi a perfect check to Breloom, who Hydreigon absolutely hates, since Jirachi can now outspeed and OHKO Breloom. Hydreigon and Jirachi have such excellent type synergy with each other o.o
 
#63
@Nollan , Hmm do you happen to have a link showcasing his entire team? That would give me more context clues about this set.

I personally dislike how its ancillary move is a weak Hidden Power Fire, albeit boosted by Sunny Day. I also hate how this Latios cannot touch opposing Heatran, while Latios boosts Heatran offenses with Sunny Day x_x. Latios partner better be packing EQ or a strong Fighting offense to make short work of Heatran.

Also Liepard's Fake Out + Encore tactics looks super aggravating. Nice synergy with Swagger Cresselia, too. Great job making use of this technical mon, Nollan :cool:
Mean's team was linked by Blank_Zero in his post about Scarf Mamoswine, I felt linking it again was unnecessary, but it can be found here.

I'll also present the set for Liepard, actually nvm, the teammates are also pretty important, I'll just showcase the team (there goes the surprise value of it all):


Liepard @ Dark Gem
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Foul Play
- Fake Out
- Encore
- Substitute

Liepard is a fun team player (that's honestly the best description I can make of it). It can easily provide utility in a handful of ways, and will play extensive mind games on your opponent, who won't know whether to expect Fake Out, Encore, or Sub. Substitute is a move I chose over Swagger (the move most VGC players used in its place), basically because it takes advantage of all the switches that Liepard will force, and can also provide flexibility to get me out of tough situations. Substitute also works like a pseudo-Protect, which has proven helpful a lot. Foul Play is basically how I actually hurt things, and since it doesn't rely on my attack, I can invest in bulk a bit more without losing any power.


Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Swagger
- Sunny Day

This is my typical Cresselia set, though I usually run something like Helping Hand or Skill Swap over Swagger. The spread is a bit old though, recently I've enjoyed more specially defensive spreads over this standard mixed one. Swagger was chosen because it works great in tandem with Liepard's Foul Play, and it works well with my team's build, which is basically supposed to be a disrupting team. Sunny Day is basically my favorite move, messing with weather teams, especially rain. Everything else is completely standard, so moving on.


Tornadus @ Flying Gem
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Taunt
- Protect

One of my favorite Pokemon ever since I beat Laga with it in the Doubles Dash finals, Tornadus really delivers. Capable of taking down Latios, Hitmontop, Landorus-T, and others, it is great for pressuring my opponent into using an unusual lead, which is something a disrupting team really appreciates. I could have picked something like Bisharp, but Tornadus was chosen since it patches up the Bug-type weakness that the first two Pokemon on the team suffer from.


Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

Let's face it, I use this set WAY too much. Honestly, I spent hours and hours trying to find an effective replacement, but this set is more or less perfect for the team. Substitute takes advantage of all the switches the team forces, and Heatran can both abuse the sun Cresselia provides, or stop opposing sun teams since I can't remove Sunny Day/Drought from the field. I wasn't running my fun Skill Swap Cresselia here, so I just ran the standard Shuca Berry as an item.


Conkeldurr @ Persim Berry
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Rock Slide
- Mach Punch
- Detect

Conkeldurr is a Pokemon who is constantly overlooked in place of Hitmontop, yet they have completely different roles. I know you are thinking that Hitmontop would've been better, providing Intimidate, Fake Out, and Wide Guard support, but I already had Fake Out support via Liepard, and Conkeldurr was useful for giving sand teams grief. Additionally, Guts Conkeldurr is a good way to laugh at bulky Thundurus, who will make it incredibly scary should they try to nail it with Thunder Wave. This set is a bit old, most people run Life Orb Iron Fist nowadays, but the old Persim Berry + Guts Conkeldurr synergized with my team more, and opened up some possibilities for using Swagger on it with Cresselia (or Thunder Wave with Rotom-W, though that would be something I would do only in a desperate situation). The spread is very disappointingly boring, I am planning to change it to something like 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SpD (except something with actual calculations plugged in that is more precise), which would allow Drain Punch to heal more while balancing physical and special bulk.


Rotom-Wash @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Rest

This slot took forever to decide, I debated Rotom-Wash at one point, but dropped it because Sunny Day support would cripple it, which I thought was contradictory. After going through about 23 other possibilities, I came back to it, and decided to try it out. Well, obviously, it worked out, because here it is. The spread was another messy one, I made this team fairly quickly. Still, I might keep it since the loss of bulk is compensated for more power, which has payed off in various matches with it. Will O' Wisp, my typical slot 3 choice, was replaced by Thunder Wave, since I didn't like how burns weakened my Liepard's Foul Play. Thunder Wave has proven a lot better, though it doesn't boost Conkeldurr as reliably as WoW did (it also lost the possibility of activating Heatran's Flash Fire, but sacrifices must be made). Slowing things down so that my slower Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Heatran could move before them was a huge boon as well.
 
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#64
I've been using a very similar core on a recent team of mine, and I can attest to its power:

Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SDef / 108 Spd
Calm Nature
- Helping Hand
- Follow Me
- Icy Wind
- Psychic

Hydreigon (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- Protect

While the Hydreigon set is easily variable, Follow Me Jirachi really has no other options - 108 Speed with Psychic makes Jirachi a perfect check to Breloom, who Hydreigon absolutely hates, since Jirachi can now outspeed and OHKO Breloom. Hydreigon and Jirachi have such excellent type synergy with each other o.o
Imo, Lum Berry on Jirachi here would be an option, drawing in status like Thunder Wave pointed at Hydreigon, and soaking up a Spore on the switch in from Breloom, etc.
 
#66
Neat and very annoying team. Ps: foul play ignores enemy burns, so WoW on rotom is a reasonable choice
Hrm, i c. Well either way I'm actually in favor of TWave anyway at this point, it makes Swagger all the more annoying it is more disrupting and also slows things down faster than Icy Wind does.
 
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#69
It wasn't even a serious game. Plus, you fell into the Encore trap, can't blame me for that one. x_x

-EDIT-
It is admittedly the World's most evil team though (except Mizuhime's terrifying Machamp + Thundurus team, that one is WAY worse)
It is seriously evil and I hate it. It's more that it relies on Swagger (luck) to pull off huge plays, and that infuriates me. It's like spamming OHKO moves or minimize in VGC. It's just wrong.
 
#70
It is seriously evil and I hate it. It's more that it relies on Swagger (luck) to pull off huge plays, and that infuriates me. It's like spamming OHKO moves or minimize in VGC. It's just wrong.
What did Swagger do to you there? As far as I can see, it was parahax that ruined you. I'll go over the game (mostly cuz I am bored):

Battle between Nollan and Blank_Zero started!
Go! Conkeldurr!
Go! Rotom-Wash!
Blank_Zero sent out Scizor!
Blank_Zero sent out Darude (Tyranitar)!
The foe's Darude's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!

Turn 1
-Tyranitar Protects while Scizor gets up Tailwind and takes heavy damage from Rotom-W's Hydro Pump and Conkeldurr's Rock Slide

Turn 2
-Scizor dies to Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, and Tyranitar Rock Slides, then gets hit by Rotom-W's Thunder Wave; Blank_Zero sends Landorus-T into battle

Turn 3
-Lando-T U-turns out, doing very little to Conkeldurr, Cresselia comes in, and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W misses (hey look at that, first hax of the game was not my team, lol go figure), and Drain Punch breaks Tyranitar's Chople Berry, then Tyranitar deals damage to Conkeldurr with Fire Blast

Turn 4
-Tyranitar switches out for Landorus-T again, meanwhile, Conkeldurr Detects while I paralyze Cresselia, who then gets full parahax (TWave: 1, Swagger: 0)

Turn 5
-I switch Conkeldurr out for my Cresselia, while Landorus-T U-turns Rotom-W for the KO, then Cress gets full para AGAIN (TWave: 2, Swagger: 0). I send Conkeldurr back in.

Turn 6
-I Detect Conkeldurr while Tyranitar Protects, then I Swagger Cresselia, who hurts itself in its confusion (TWave: 2, Swagger: 1). Now, before we go on, I'm going emphasize why Swagger was used here. I chose Swagger because I knew Tyranitar would Protect, and was worried about Psyshock or Psychic hitting Conkeldurr (Didn't expect Trick Room because it seems pretty weird to do with Conkeldurr around, but in restrospect the paralysis was a good reason to do that). Therefore, I chose Swagger because Icy Wind wouldn't do anything to Cress, and neither would Psyshock. Swagger was imo the best choice there anyway.

Turn 7
-Blank switches out Tyranitar for Lando-T, I follow by using Icy Wind with Cresselia and Drain Punch on Lando-T (Icy Wind was in case it came in). Cresselia then pulls off a Trick Room and Swagger wares off.

Turn 8
-Cresselia pulls off a Rest. I can't say I agree with this play, though I don't know your full moveset. Imo, you should use your speed boost under Trick Room to try and do some damage, then Rest later. Conkeldurr then lauches a Rock Slide, critting Cresselia but missing Landorus-T, who then KOs w/ EQ. Cresselia Icy Winds again, this is a controversial play, I know, but I wanted to get Landorus to a low HP range. I send in my favorite little cat, Liepard.

Turn 9
-Liepard pulls off the unexpected Substitute, then Tyranitar gets full parahax (TWave: 3, Swagger: 1). Conkeldurr's Drain Punch hits and breaks the Sub, and Cresselia deals heavy damage with Psyshock.

Turn 10
-I switch out Liepard for Tornadus, who tanks Conkeldurr's incoming Mach Punch. Tyranitar once again gets full parahax (TWave: 4, Swagger: 1). Psyshock takes out Conkeldurr, and Blank sends in Latias, who I am honestly confused as to what its team role is.

Turn 11
-Latias uses Helping Hand while I take it down to 22% w/ Flying Gem Acrobatics. Cress uses Sunny Day, and Tyranitar pulls off a Rock Slide (tbh you should be happier about this play imo, it really worked out despite the associated risk), KOing Tornadus and activating Cress's Sitrus Berry.

Turn 12
-Blank uses Protect on Tyranitar, not sure why here, trying to launch a Rock Slide would've been better. I Sub on Liepard, which was a bad and unnecessary play. Using Encore on Latias would've been better, forcing Blank to switch (unless you want to be incredibly predictable), giving me an opening to Swagger and then Foul Play Tyranitar, or take out the switch in (if he were to go for the Rock Slide, it would allow for Heatran to come in and finish Blank off by taking out Tyranitar w/ Earth Power, Tyranitar is the only thing left that can handle Heatran). A switch to Heatran would've also been a better option. Anyways, I Sub, Latias Draco Meteors and takes out the Sub, while Cresselia hits Latias with Icy Wind.

Turn 13
-Here I make a play that seems really risky, but honestly isn't. I Encore the Tyranitar so that if for some reason it stays in, Blank is in big trouble. If it switches, my Cresselia will KO Latias before it attacks, since a -2 252 EV Timid Latias hits 350 speed, and my Cresselia is 207, and also slow down Cresselia for an easy kill. Anyways, Blank does not switch (didn't matter tbh, only difference is that I don't need to bring in Heatran anymore), and Helping Hands, while I Encore Tyranitar and finish off Latias with Icy Wind. Cresselia, his final pokemon, is sent in.

Turn 14
-Tyranitar can't do a thing but Protect, so attacking it is no use (unless I want to rely on that lucky 25% of full parahax, which would be incredibly dumb). I simply Sub with Liepard while Swaggering Cress to assure Foul Play will KO next turn, who does not hurt itself and breaks my Sub with Ice Beam.

Turn 15
-Tyranitar continues to Protect while I demolish Cresselia with Foul Play, and then I hit Tyranitar w/ Icy Wind. At this point Blank can do absolutely nothing, so he forfeits.

(lol add in Blank's perspective, and we have ourselves a really bad quality warstory)


Overall Score: TWave- 4, Swagger- 1

The uses of Swagger in the game were only at points when A) I had nothing better to do, or B) to just reassure Foul Play will KO Cresselia. The hax in this game was from Thunder Wave, Swagger only took effect once. "Relying" on Swagger is something I do not like to see, such as when Ryosuke Swaggered a Landorus-T in hopes of it hurting itself, a play that would've completely ruined him had it gone wrong, and also when he Swaggered a Marowak for the same reasons (and was also successful then). Whether you team "relies" on Swagger depends on how you decide to use it, for risky plays, or when it is a safe option. Furthermore, I am using Swagger for smaller plays, like assuring Foul Play will KO. I don't mean to be a jerk about it, but your statement is not very accurate as to how and when this team uses Swagger. :[
 

Laga

Forever Grande
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
#71
I personally only run Swagger on teams that carry at least one physical attacker with Lum Berry. I then proceed to use Swagger on the opponents special attackers / walls after I have boosted the SwaggerLum partner.

Swagger is an extremely unreliable move outside of SwaggerLum; it doesn't matter if you rely on hax, you are still fishing for it, and I really don't like coinflips (unless they decide games, frickin nailbiters) and Swagger gives you a huge pool of them.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#72
I actually saw some motherfucker running a Safeguard Swagger Cresseila. It was shockingly effective, and even if he played like an idiot it still seems like it has potential for those who would like to run swagger without a lum. Obviously it's not the BEST strategy in the world, but it seems like it has potential. Anyone got any input on Safeguard + Swagger?
 
#73
I actually saw some motherfucker running a Safeguard Swagger Cresseila. It was shockingly effective, and even if he played like an idiot it still seems like it has potential for those who would like to run swagger without a lum. Obviously it's not the BEST strategy in the world, but it seems like it has potential. Anyone got any input on Safeguard + Swagger?
That sounds... very interesting. I hadn't even considered it. I wouldn't put swagger and safeguard on the same pokemon though. Maybe spread it around 3 or 4 mons so I could pull it off whenever needed. So many pokemon have access to the move, you could safeguard one turn, and suddenly swagger another as a sort of slower stronger helping hand to nab a KO. There's also the confusing matter of speed. If two different pokemon do it on the same turn, the safeguard user should be faster, and it would be greatly to your benefit if you swagger users were faster than your physical attackers, allowing you to make full use of that swagger user's lost turn.
Best of all? SO many options for this one, and both the moves safeguard and swagger have secondary uses in battle.
Venusaur, Ninetales, Alakazam, Zapdos, Mew, Kingdra, Slamence, Weavile, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Volcarona, Terrakion, Deoxys A, Shaymin S
 
#74
I actually saw some motherfucker running a Safeguard Swagger Cresseila. It was shockingly effective, and even if he played like an idiot it still seems like it has potential for those who would like to run swagger without a lum. Obviously it's not the BEST strategy in the world, but it seems like it has potential. Anyone got any input on Safeguard + Swagger?
While this can theoretically be an effective strategy, it involves using two moveslots (you won't have a lot of flexibility with it), and can be shut down fairly easily, since Taunt, Encore, and others moves along those lines are not blocked by Safeguard. I'd judge it as unreliable at best. Still, I suppose there is potential there, but getting it to work would take very precise play and teambuilding at least.
 
#75
That sounds... very interesting. I hadn't even considered it. I wouldn't put swagger and safeguard on the same pokemon though. Maybe spread it around 3 or 4 mons so I could pull it off whenever needed. So many pokemon have access to the move, you could safeguard one turn, and suddenly swagger another as a sort of slower stronger helping hand to nab a KO. There's also the confusing matter of speed. If two different pokemon do it on the same turn, the safeguard user should be faster, and it would be greatly to your benefit if you swagger users were faster than your physical attackers, allowing you to make full use of that swagger user's lost turn.
Best of all? SO many options for this one, and both the moves safeguard and swagger have secondary uses in battle.
Venusaur, Ninetales, Alakazam, Zapdos, Mew, Kingdra, Slamence, Weavile, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Volcarona, Terrakion, Deoxys A, Shaymin S
You forgot Thundurus-I, Whimsicott, and Sableye.
 

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