General Dubs Meta Discussion II

[Arcticblast]

And Liepard, Murkrow, and... well, to be honest, Swagger is a really common move, so a better list might be "fast Pokemon that don't get Swagger."

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think of Sun nowadays? I feel like there's a reason that Sun isn't too common among better players (except Mizuhime's Bellossom team ?_?), but in the right hands it seems like it would be absolutely devastating, with terrifying sweepers like Heatran and Volcarona (and even Charizard if you're into that) and a huge number of Pokemon can use Chlorophyll well, such as Shiftry, Venusaur, and Lilligant. Heck, Heat Wave is stronger than Surf, if a bit less accurate.

 

[Nollan]

And Liepard, Murkrow, and... well, to be honest, Swagger is a really common move, so a better list might be "fast Pokemon that don't get Swagger."

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think of Sun nowadays? I feel like there's a reason that Sun isn't too common among better players (except Mizuhime's Bellossom team ?_?), but in the right hands it seems like it would be absolutely devastating, with terrifying sweepers like Heatran and Volcarona (and even Charizard if you're into that) and a huge number of Pokemon can use Chlorophyll well, such as Shiftry, Venusaur, and Lilligant. Heck, Heat Wave is stronger than Surf, if a bit less accurate.

...will people stop saying "Lilligant"? Honestly, at least from my view, Exeggutor is better. In almost every way. For starters:

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Politoed: 460-541 (119.79 - 140.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 424-502 (104.95 - 124.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Hitmontop: 346-408 (113.81 - 134.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 243-289 (81.27 - 96.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, simply put, a LO Exeggutor can OHKO the most Specially Defensive Politoed, and Tyranitar in sand with Leaf Storm. Not to mention it puts a dent in everything, dealing 52% at minimum to a 252/96 Cresselia (the standard mixed Cresselia). It also can either use Power Swap or Sleep Powder, to either allow it to remove the SpA drop from Leaf Storm and give it to something else, or put something to sleep. The only advantage Lilligant has over Exeggutor is speed, which, with all the speed control we use in Doubles, shouldn't really be an issue. If you don't like Steel types, you can use Hidden Power, for example:

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross in sun: 351-413 (96.42 - 113.46%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in sun: 530-629 (154.06 - 182.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in sun (granted the opposition is really dumb and doesn't Sucker Punch): 426-502 (127.54 - 150.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, in terms of Sun as a general battle style, I find it perfectly viable. The issue is how far you go in terms of abuse. You need to be able to deal with Sand & Rain if you want to get anywhere with it. Here is an example team of mine (haven't used this at all recently, I'd probably suck with it, but lol):

SunRoom Team

Ninetales @ Iron Ball
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
IV: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Fire Blast
- Will O' Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Protect

I, technically speaking, almost always use Sun. Well, manual Sun. Its great for laughing at Drizzle teams. Now, as for Drought, this is one of the few times I used it. I enjoyed the change of pace, my classical core of choice is CressTran w/ Sunny Day & Substitute, which gets boring after a while. I choose Iron Ball for two reasons: A) so I can get the jump on opposing Sand Stream & Drizzle teams since I am slower, and B) to make Ninetales incredibly fast under Trick Room conditions. It it built to be a bulky supporter as opposed to a more offensive Ninetales, and is great for reactivating sun manually and spreading burns (also activating Heatran's Flash Fire).

Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psyshock
- Power Swap / Sleep Powder
- Protect

My favorite sun abuser, and one of the most effective. It also forms part of the fast-paced section of the team, allowing me to keep hitting hard once Trick Room runs out without delay. Leaf Storm > Solarbeam because it allows me to decimate Tyranitar in sand, making winning the weather war all the more easier. Psyshock > Psychic for reasons that (hopefully) we all know. I am always switching between Power Swap and Sleep Power in the third slot, I think Power Swap is the better nowadays since WoW Ninetales will render Sleep Powder less effective, but I'll probably have changed my mind by tomorrow.

Heatran @ Fire Gem
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Protect

We all know why I would put Eruption Heatran on this team, so moving on.

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 220 HP / 80 Def / 84 SpA / 124 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind / Ice Beam
- Sunny Day / Moonlight
- Trick Room

I'm always changing this set around. Icy Wind may seem contradictory, but I liked it because it could capitalize on my teams' ability to "change modes", slowing things down so that I still have the upper hand when Trick Room wares off. Still, I have used Ice Beam a lot too (running more SpA investment). Sunny Day makes controling the weather even easier, though I have also used Moonlight, as it makes Cresselia a complete pain to take out. The spread is based off of a VGC one, so its probably not very good, but whatevs.

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Iron Fist / Guts
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
- Detect

This set helps with sand, which is less manageable for the team than rain is. I choose this over Breloom since it functions in Trick Room better. I have considered Guts, since it is a cool option in tandem with WoW, but Iron Fist is more reliable, so I usually stick with that. The spread is another result of my natural laziness, it balances physical and special bulk while allowing Drain Punch to heal more HP (since I have less HP as a result). That's about it for Conkeldurr.

The last slot of this team took a lot of thinking (which I obviously hate). I wanted a physical attacker that could help patch up the teams' weaknesses, particularly Flying. After a lot of searching, I just went with:

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Obviously, the first words you should think are "Nollan, that's not a physical attacker". Evidently, this team has some trouble with Raikou (and Snarl in general); fortunately, Exeggutor can OHKO it (it is faster in case you for some reason think Exeggutor is slow, Exeggutor actually beats 130s even if it runs a Modest nature, though Deoxys-A is faster), and Raikou isn't very impressive under Trick Room conditions. Rotom-Wash helps against rain and sand, patches the teams weaknesses without adding in more, and is just downright cool. Even in sun, a Specs Hydro Pump can help against troubling Ground types, and the strengths tend to outweigh the weaknesses. Trick was there because I didn't have much need for more coverage, my teammates easily handle what gives Rotom-W trouble. Trick does allow for me to juice up Exeggutor's and Heatran's attacks by giving them Choice Specs, though I rarely do that. The most common use of Trick was against sand, I could prevent Excadrill from using Protect while stealing LO, or do similar things to Tyranitar, etc. Oh, and this is technically the other part of the fast-paced section; while it may seem rather slow, it can get the jump on a lot of threats after they are hit by Icy Wind.

 

[Nollan]

Well, I'll just post a collection of my replays from the Doubles Dash (w/ minimal commentary on my completely expected top 1 finish), for kicks (also cuz I used the largest variety of teams in it, a lot of different battles). :]

Replays

Doubles Dash Quarterfinals G1
-I start off against a Sun team, I am using a Rain team with my favorite "GarDra" core (basically Kingdra + Garchomp. Outside of Dragon weakness synergy pretty well, I use Garchomp on most of my Rain teams to help in battles vs Sun, which can be difficult since a lot of common Rain abusers are either Fire or Grass weak). I start off with Garchomp, from my experience with him on my Rain teams, he makes a good lead against most Sun teams. He gets Trick Room up, but this team can work around it pretty easily, and I stall it out. As things progress, it becomes a pretty big weather war, each of us gaining an advantage here and there. Things look pretty bad when a crucial Muddy Water misses the KO on Ninetales, but Genesect lives a Fire Blast (I honestly could not have called that; in Rain, but still), and manages to take out Shiftry. If I can get rid of Gastrodon, I'll be in pretty good shape. Things go downhill for Pocket from there, a Fire Blast misses Genesect and he is in pretty big trouble. Garchomp comes in to exact vengeance for Kingdra, who is now gone, and Genesect manages to crit KO Gastrodon on the switch in, securing my win (Muddy Water and Fire Blast has a true niche for missing this match, wow).

Doubles Dash Quarterfinals G2
-It seems after my first win, I relax a little, which you can tell by my prediction, which is pretty bad at the start of the game. I recover a bit more as the game goes on, using a Taunt Focus Sash Terrakion and Sunny Day Cresselia (now my favorite set in existence) to eliminate Pocket's super-annoying Parasect. Unfortunately, my bad play (and partially my team, which is not well conceived for Pocket's team) result in Trick Room getting up, and I proceed to be decimated.

Doubles Dash Quarterfinals G3
-I pretty much just sighed and figured it was over the minute I saw Tornadus; if it isn't obvious the team I went with for this battle completely hates it. Fortunately, things start looking better after my unexpected "bulky" Garchomp (to be accurate it is a modified Haban Garchomp set from VGC) leaves his Excadrill badly weakened. Once I manage to cripple Tornadus with Thunder Wave, my chances look much better, and it comes down to Cresselia vs a paralyzed Latios, and in the closest game of my run, I win with a 16% Cresselia.

Doubles Dash Semifinals G1
-Apparently this game wasn't saved. Basically, it was Rain vs Rain, and after my Ice Gem Mamoswine tackled Fusx's Shaymin-S w/ Ice Shard, Kingdra more or less finished the game, only needing to play a bit cautiously against Ludicolo.

Doubles Dash Semifinals G2
-Not much to say here, a misplay cost him Landorus-T, and without a solid physical attacker, Snarlkou managed to weaken him down so that the rest of my team could clean up. A Sucker Punch crit sped the win up a fair bit though, but Mamoswine could've easily finished off Rotom-Frost, resisting its STABs and taken only neutral damage from Hidden Power [Fire] (ty Thick Fat).

Doubles Dash Finals G1 (Already posted this replay, but hey, whatevs)
-A very unusual Tailwind vs Tailwind goes south for Laga after an expected play leaves his Mamoswine completely battered by Acrobatics. The team I used completely despises Mamoswine, so if he had gotten it in safely the match could have easily gone the other way.

Doubles Dash Finals G2
-The Doubles Dash comes to a haxy finish as Laga and I engage in an annoying clash of parahax, flinches, and absolutely no honor. In the end, my fast paced sand team takes the win over his bulkier Goodstuff team.

Addtionally, something I have been curious about recently is the usage of manual weather. While perma-weather is obviously the long term option, manual weather (especially Sunny Day) can change the field unexpectedly, forcing a more dedicated weather team into chaos. We all know I use Sunny Day Cresselia on 80% of my teams, so I was curious as to whether anyone else is making use of it or what they think about it.

 

[nyttyn]

Lilligant is used as more as a offensive supporter and posting life orb calcs is dumb if you're trying to say exeggutor outclasses - yes eggy is better in a lot of ways for flat out attacking, having marginally more bulk and a better offensive movepool due to having psyshock, but it also has the speed disadvantage which leads to it outrunning absolutely nothing when sun is down and an inferior typing for that role (and the only speed control you can fit on sun in the first place is Cresseila who magnifies dark type weakness). But as a supporter Lilligant has the niche of healing wish (a a really rare and handy move), has access to Teether Dance, Quiver Dance, and Entrainment, which makes if not better, then certainly equal to Eggy.

 

[tofucocoa]

the main reason i use lilligant is because even after it uses that first leaf storm it can still be a nuisance with helping hand and sleep powder (and of course teeter dance), along with the fact that lilligant is pretty fast even without the sun boost. the main problem with exeggutor is while it can ohko ttar, it can't outspeed all tyranitar (not counting scarftar obv) and some speed benchmarks like raikou without some significant investment, which really detracts from its supposedly superior bulk.

 

[Pocket]

I've played 100+ games with my dedicated Sun team, and one of the best things you can add to such a team is a Prankster Sun Inducer. Thanks to Prankster, these suckers (Sableye & Whimsicott) can summon sun immediately at the beginning of the turn to halve opponent's Water moves and boost your fire power! I've used a Rain team against such a Sun team, and I ashamedly got my ass whooped by an Eruption Typhlosion supported by Whimsicott. I started using Prankster Sableye over Shiftry myself, and it's just priceless to be able to summon sun at a second's notice. A dedicated Sun team like mine needs sun up 24/7, and Prankster Sun inducers gives that to me (ofc Cresselia, too).

However, I have to say that this team's strategy is sub-optimal - being so dependent on sun isn't a good thing. Trying to blitz my way through opposing teams can be a major challenge, especially if they are using a Sand team that spams Rock Slide and Earthquake. I have 3 Fire-types to take advantage of sun, so naturally I am particularly susceptible to these common spread moves.

I just finished reading Lajo's report about his sun team, and it was very enlightening. Rather than using a sun-dedicated hyper offense strategy, he uses sun to disrupt the opposing team. In a way Rain hates facing Ninetales more than Abomasnow, because Sun not only removes the boost on Water-type moves, but halves it. Not to mention that certain check against Abomasnow like Scizor or Escavalier gets dominated by Ninetales. His team does not rely on sun, with Ninetales being the sole user that can summon it. He can run a perfectly functional team with Amoonguss, Skill Swap Cresselia, Scrafty, Thundurus, and Heatran without sun. Speaking of Ninetales, rather than relegating this Pokemon to a support role, he lets Ninetales make the most use out of Sun with a Modest Overheat @ Fire Gem (with some other neat tricks up his sleeves, most notably 8 IVs in Spe and Power Swap)

I have to agree that a team like Lajo's "goodstuffs" sun team is probably the best way to go, rather than constructing a sun-dependent team. Although Nollan's team leans toward the side of offensive sun, it can function well outside of it with an alternative win conditions in Conkeldurr and Specs Rotom-W. Lajo's team also reminds me of Wolfe's team and Darkmalice's Wreck-it Ralph Team, which also make use of Skill Swap Cresselia - Sub Heatran - Scrafty core (manual sun, though).

Ninetales deserve more respect imo! :cool:

 

[Nollan]

Lilligant is used as more as a offensive supporter and posting life orb calcs is dumb if you're trying to say exeggutor outclasses - yes eggy is better in a lot of ways for flat out attacking, having marginally more bulk and a better offensive movepool due to having psyshock, but it also has the speed disadvantage which leads to it outrunning absolutely nothing when sun is down and an inferior typing for that role (and the only speed control you can fit on sun in the first place is Cresseila who magnifies dark type weakness). But as a supporter Lilligant has the niche of healing wish (a a really rare and handy move), has access to Teether Dance, Quiver Dance, and Entrainment, which makes if not better, then certainly equal to Eggy.

Well I disagree on the matter, LO is there because it allows Exeggutor to capatilize on its high SpA (and is needed to KO Tyranitar). I definitely can only see Lilligant as equal at best, but in my view Lilligant is going to be inferior to Eggy on most teams, because Exeggutor is extremely good at what it does: winning the weather war. Also, why is Cresselia the only speed control you can put on a Sun team? I agree Lilligant makes for a better supporter than Exeggutor, but imo at least support is generally better on bulkier things. Finally, in terms of the Lilligant that I have seen, they usually run all-out offensive sets, which is something Exeggutor will definitely outclass generally. If you are going to use Lilligant, you should at least capitalize on its support ability, not just spam powerful attacks. In terms of speed, Exeggutor gets to where you need it, w/ a Modest Nature it hits 418 (209 outside of Sun gets you ahead of all sorts of bulky threats, like TTar) speed under sun, and without Scarfers being as common this will suffice in most matches. If your team needs to outspeed things like Deoxys-A for important reasons, you can hit 458 in Sun w/ Timid, 20 points above it.

A couple final things to note about Exeggutor: A) its typing gives it helpful Fighting & Psychic resistances, both of which are common attacking types you will see in Doubles. B) it can theoretically hit at both ends of the attacking spectrum; while 95 isn't an amazing offensive stat, Low Kick and Nature Power are two moves that distuinguish it from other common physically inclined Chlorophyll abusers. C) It has dual screens to play with as well, giving it a possibility of fast support, though given the potential you would be wasting I don't recommend it. D) I highly recommend you at least try Exeggutor out when making a Sun team, you won't be disappointed.

Ninetales deserve more respect imo! :cool:

Yes it does. :)

 

[noobcubed]

Since we're discussing sun, what about the combination of sun and Trick Room? Victini, Chandelure and Exeggutor (with Harvest obviously) are all really good offensive Trick Room setters, and you can also try your hand at Moonlight Cresselia (although I've heard that's not too great even on dedicated sun teams). Oh, and there's Eruption Heatran too.

 

[Nollan]

Since we're discussing sun, what about the combination of sun and Trick Room? Victini, Chandelure and Exeggutor (with Harvest obviously) are all really good offensive Trick Room setters, and you can also try your hand at Moonlight Cresselia (although I've heard that's not too great even on dedicated sun teams). Oh, and there's Eruption Heatran too.

Here is an example team of mine (haven't used this at all recently, I'd probably suck with it, but lol):

SunRoom Team

Ninetales @ Iron Ball
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
IV: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Fire Blast
- Will O' Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Protect

I, technically speaking, almost always use Sun. Well, manual Sun. Its great for laughing at Drizzle teams. Now, as for Drought, this is one of the few times I used it. I enjoyed the change of pace, my classical core of choice is CressTran w/ Sunny Day & Substitute, which gets boring after a while. I choose Iron Ball for two reasons: A) so I can get the jump on opposing Sand Stream & Drizzle teams since I am slower, and B) to make Ninetales incredibly fast under Trick Room conditions. It it built to be a bulky supporter as opposed to a more offensive Ninetales, and is great for reactivating sun manually and spreading burns (also activating Heatran's Flash Fire).

Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psyshock
- Power Swap / Sleep Powder
- Protect

My favorite sun abuser, and one of the most effective. It also forms part of the fast-paced section of the team, allowing me to keep hitting hard once Trick Room runs out without delay. Leaf Storm > Solarbeam because it allows me to decimate Tyranitar in sand, making winning the weather war all the more easier. Psyshock > Psychic for reasons that (hopefully) we all know. I am always switching between Power Swap and Sleep Power in the third slot, I think Power Swap is the better nowadays since WoW Ninetales will render Sleep Powder less effective, but I'll probably have changed my mind by tomorrow.

Heatran @ Fire Gem
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Protect

We all know why I would put Eruption Heatran on this team, so moving on.

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 220 HP / 80 Def / 84 SpA / 124 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind / Ice Beam
- Sunny Day / Moonlight
- Trick Room

I'm always changing this set around. Icy Wind may seem contradictory, but I liked it because it could capitalize on my teams' ability to "change modes", slowing things down so that I still have the upper hand when Trick Room wares off. Still, I have used Ice Beam a lot too (running more SpA investment). Sunny Day makes controling the weather even easier, though I have also used Moonlight, as it makes Cresselia a complete pain to take out. The spread is based off of a VGC one, so its probably not very good, but whatevs.

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Iron Fist / Guts
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
- Detect

This set helps with sand, which is less manageable for the team than rain is. I choose this over Breloom since it functions in Trick Room better. I have considered Guts, since it is a cool option in tandem with WoW, but Iron Fist is more reliable, so I usually stick with that. The spread is another result of my natural laziness, it balances physical and special bulk while allowing Drain Punch to heal more HP (since I have less HP as a result). That's about it for Conkeldurr.

The last slot of this team took a lot of thinking (which I obviously hate). I wanted a physical attacker that could help patch up the teams' weaknesses, particularly Flying. After a lot of searching, I just went with:

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Obviously, the first words you should think are "Nollan, that's not a physical attacker". Evidently, this team has some trouble with Raikou (and Snarl in general); fortunately, Exeggutor can OHKO it (it is faster in case you for some reason think Exeggutor is slow, Exeggutor actually beats 130s even if it runs a Modest nature, though Deoxys-A is faster), and Raikou isn't very impressive under Trick Room conditions. Rotom-Wash helps against rain and sand, patches the teams weaknesses without adding in more, and is just downright cool. Even in sun, a Specs Hydro Pump can help against troubling Ground types, and the strengths tend to outweigh the weaknesses. Trick was there because I didn't have much need for more coverage, my teammates easily handle what gives Rotom-W trouble. Trick does allow for me to juice up Exeggutor's and Heatran's attacks by giving them Choice Specs, though I rarely do that. The most common use of Trick was against sand, I could prevent Excadrill from using Protect while stealing LO, or do similar things to Tyranitar, etc. Oh, and this is technically the other part of the fast-paced section; while it may seem rather slow, it can get the jump on a lot of threats after they are hit by Icy Wind.

^^^

 

[youngjake93]

Oh hey, so we all know - Sky Drop+Gravity was fixed in BW2, and it is now unbanned from Doubles!

nyttyn, you may proceed to rejoice.

Um, why is Sky Drop still banned on Showdown?

Pocket EDIT: Sky Drop + Gravity glitch is not confirmed to be fixed

 

[BlankZero]

Um, why is Sky Drop still banned on Showdown?

Pocket EDIT: Sky Drop + Gravity glitch is not confirmed to be fixed

Apparently it's still broke in BW2, and yes that has been tested and comfirmed.

 

[Nollan]

Something else I've seen popping up a bit is Scarf Mamoswine. I'll post the set as it pertains to SmogDubs later, but for now, just know that it is fast and BULKY surprisingly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK! Did the calcs and the speed creep checks and I've adapted the Choice Scarf set that Arash Ommati has made famous through winning Masters at Worlds this year.

Here's a link to the analysis: http://nuggetbridge.com/reports/mean-streets-world-champion-masters-2013-vgc-world-champion-report/

Now, onto the sets.


The Original:

Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 124 HP / 44 Atk / 100 Def / 44 SDef / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Rock Slide

Benchmarks:

• Outspeeds Max/Positive Natured Base 115s
• Lives Scarf Jolly Lando-T Superpower
• Kills said Lando after the Defense Drop
• Checks every single Lando-T set (and most Thundurus sets)
• Lives Scarf Timid Latios DM (not Gem), and Modest about half the time
• Also kills Garchomp
• Can run Superpower to check Choice Scarf Tyranitar

The Edit:

Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Rock Slide

Benchmarks:

• Same across the board, but bulkier
• More Attack
• Same Speed

Now for the Calcs

124 HP+100 Def+44 SDef= 268 EVs

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 124 HP / 100 Def Mamoswine: 304-358 (77.55 - 91.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 124 HP / 44 SpD Mamoswine: 322-381 (82.14 - 97.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 HP+0 Def+0 SDef = 252 EVs

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 342-404 (80.66 - 95.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 346-408 (81.6 - 96.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Now, as you can see, the new calcs show similar bulk and the same Speed with fewer EVs (Thanks to the extra 50 levels) and thus gains nearly double the Attack EVs.

Thoughts?

While this is a fairly old post, I'd just like to mention something new I found. I was using Blank's set as a reference for my Mamoswine analysis (for C&C), and based on the calcs I ran, I found a spread that I believe is better. Here is the remade spread:

Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 224 HP / 120 Atk / 4 Def / 160 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Rock Slide

• Still lives a Superpower from Jolly Landorus-T. It is EV'd to specifically also live a Fighting Gem Technician Mach Punch off of Jolly-natured Breloom, and anything weaker than that.
• Still can tank a Timid Scarf Latios Draco Meteor (deals 97.84% maximum).
• Now EV'd to beat 111's and lower (Raikou can't really touch us, and apart from that there is very little that it loses in terms of speed).
• As a result of this, you gain 48 more attacks EVs.
• Finally, if living that Superpower off of a Adamant Landorus-T is really important to you, you can opt for a spread of 208 HP / 84 Atk / 56 Def / 160 Spe, which can live the Adamant Superpower, the Timid Latios Draco, beats 111s, and provides 12 more attack EVs to play with.

Anyone have any thoughts on the updated spread(s)?

 

[tofucocoa]

looks pretty good, i like the fact that it has more leeway with EVs with the transition from vgc to doubs. living adamant superpower is pretty important though, since it makes mamo that more effective at killing genies (which is its main purpose).

 

[Nollan]

looks pretty good, i like the fact that it has more leeway with EVs with the transition from vgc to doubs. living adamant superpower is pretty important though, since it makes mamo that more effective at killing genies (which is its main purpose).

Yeah, though Scarf Landorus-T isn't really as common as Yache or Sash sets, so it shouldn't usually be a problem (at least I think it shouldn't).

 

[BlankZero]

Dead chat.

Now that I've had a week to think about Pokemon while driving cross country, I wanna talk about a specific Mon (one per day or week or so) so we can discuss niches, sets and strategies. If no one has any objections, I'd be willing to make a thread for it, kind of like the Next Best Thing series, but tailored to Dubs.

Thoughts or objections? Otherwise I'll post up something tonight to get it going.

 

[Shayhok]

I think it could be fun, it will give another medium for doubles activity at the very least.

 

[Level 51]

Dead chat.

Now that I've had a week to think about Pokemon while driving cross country, I wanna talk about a specific Mon (one per day or week or so) so we can discuss niches, sets and strategies. If no one has any objections, I'd be willing to make a thread for it, kind of like the Next Best Thing series, but tailored to Dubs.

Thoughts or objections? Otherwise I'll post up something tonight to get it going.

One step ahead of you.

 

[BlankZero]

One step ahead of you.

Idea Stealer!!!

:(

Research Week for UU mons isn't what I had in mind. I'll get a thread going and PM it to Pocket though.

 

[Bryon_Y]

I hate to come off like a noob, but I gotta ask if you could have DrizzleSwim or Sand Stream/Sand Veil teams done in the Smogon Doubles. I so feel like a noob for asking, but I'm not seeing it here...

 

[Pocket]

Yes you can. Pwnemon's Team WhiteWater and Audiosurfer's Rushing Through the Sand are exemplars of such teams

 

[Arcticblast]

Pocket got Sand Veil confused with Sand Rush. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are still banned in Smogon Doubles.

 

[Bryon_Y]

Yeah, I just learned that when trying to use my Sandstorm Team with Cacturne + Sand Veil, Artic. Thanks, guys! :)

 

[Nollan]

Given how dead the chat is around here, I'll just present my most recent team I've been enjoying.

My Most Recent Team I've Been Enjoying

Alright, so just a heads up, this is an interchangeable VGC/SmogDubs team, so some of the spreads (mostly Togekiss) may look a bit VGC-ey.

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Trait: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
- Protect

The star of the team. I wanted to see how Mold Breaker Excadrill could deliver in Smogon Doubles, since it was pretty annoying in VGC, where I was testing it out. This set is just pulled straight off of R Inanimate's team analysis. I considered some changes notably Iron Head over Swords Dance, but stuck with it since it helped Rock Slide nab some KOs. I have yet to encounter a Rotom to demolish, but it has more than proven its worth against Cresselia, Latios, Hydreigon, and others.

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 188 SDef / 80 Def
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Helping Hand
- Tailwind
- Follow Me

Togekiss goes with Mold Breaker Excadrill wonderfully; I couldn't resist using it. The set is fairly standard, though I opted to drop Protect in favor of as many support options as possible. The spread is designed for VGC, but at lv100, it accomplishes what it needs to; I live both a Specs Rotom-W Thunderbolt and a Helping Hand-boosted Rock Slide off of Tyranitar.

Heracross @ Bug Gem
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 244 HP / 12 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Heracross was my next choice, resisting Excadrill's EQ and being capable of OHKOing Cresselia, an impressive feat that only Escavalier shares with it. It also was just generally good at hitting things. This spread is also VGC designed, but the only difference that you would have between them is 8 Spe EVs vs this spread's 12. With that HP investment, I can A) tank Excadrill's Earthquakes more safely and B) survive an unboosted Heat Wave off of Heatran.

Latios @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Tailwind
- Protect

Basically a backup Tailwinder. It originally was there to take out threats with Dragon Gem Draco Meteor and I ran Substitute over Tailwind so I wouldn't have as much trouble with Excadrill's Earthquake. I later switched to Tailwind just because it payed off in several matches to have something other than Togekiss that could set Tailwind.

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Basically added to patch up some notable weaknesses, namely Ice and Fire. It also works very well in Tailwind. I originally tried Eruption, but switches to a standard set so that Heatran could operate outside of Tailwind.

Sableye @ Mental Herb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Sableye is the glue of the team. It can activate both Flash Fire and Guts on Heatran and Heracross, respectively. However, its main purpose is to A) counter Trick Room and B) patch up any remaining weaknesses, such as Fighting, which is was obviously a bit paranoid about (Hitmontop mostly). Pain Split is an option I have been trying on Sableye recently, as unlike Recover, it provides recovery WHILE actually damaging something.

 

[thecrowing2k8]

So I came a whimsicott and thundurus parafusion duo that haxed me to death. This duo can possibly fit into so many doubles archtypes and wreak havoc on unsuspecting foes. With moves, items, and abilities such as protect, focus sash, and prankster, this can create an annoying wall to get through to as priority swagger, and thunder wave/stun spore get you before you have any say in it. Is there any validity to using these strategies? These pokes can even poke at you with high speed and stabbed attacks to chip away your hp little by little. The one saving grace I found is having a lum berry, but I rarely use it for harder hitting items.

 

[Nollan]

Interestingly enough, this very topic has been discussed in the VGC community many times, for example one response about a player apologizing to those who hate parafusion:

"While it’s a nice thing to do, I kinda wish you hadn’t apologized so much for your choice of strategies. Pokemon is an odds management game. Everybody gets a little flustered when the rolls don’t go their way — especially when the odds are in their favor — but we all know what we’re getting into and what we need to try to do to win. There’s nothing wrong with using moves that do stack those odds your way. I think you have a very pertinent point about how people play around parafusion compared to sleep, though. Players seem to have unrealistic expectations about attacking through parafusion, and rarely seem to play their odds in a way that actually gives them the highest chance to win. I think especially in Masters we saw a decent bit of players misplaying the odds there throughout the tournament this year… something that a lot of players could learn from."

Swagger and Thunder Wave is a nice combination that can help stack odds in your way. HOWEVER, the core you specify I do not want to vouch for. There is a difference between using this strategy and relying on it. Whimsicott especially has nothing else to do while the opponent is hit with parafusion. Parafusion is NOT a shield of invincibility, a Pokemon hit with it has a ~37% chance to attack, which means playing it recklessly (such as the core you put foward) is pretty much begging for that 63% chance to take effect turn after turn, which is simply not likely to happen, especially if the opponent knows how to work around parafusion. Furthermore, since you can do very little (with Whimsicott especially), the opponent can easily switch out, curing confusion. Taunt can also shut these guys down pretty fast.

Now, working around parafusion is often difficult because many players have the urge to try and attack through it. This is usually not the best approach. Clever switching is probably the best way to play around it once you have gotten hit by it, though in some cases taking the risk may be better. In terms of preventing these problems, there are a few options. Though a rare move, Quick Guard can protect both you and your ally from priority attacks for one turn. Safeguard Cresselia is a popular choice for preventing these strategies (anyone dumb enough to try Swagger with Safeguard up will just boost your attack with no drawbacks). Lum Berry, as you mentioned can also put things off for one turn, and isn't as common in Smogon Doubles as in VGC, but is still used fairly often on things like Quiver Dance Volcarona. Finally, while generally an inferior option, you can use Guts to prevent paralysis, though this does little to help against Swagger.

So, simply said, the answer is yes, there is viability to parafusion. However, you will not find a very efficient win rate if you just click Swagger and Thunder Wave turn after turn, hoping for the odds to be in your favor (in really bad situations when you are losing there is sometimes some viability to this risky play, however). Rather, you should use it alongside Pokemon with good offensive presence, subtly using it to stack up your odds when given the opportunity.