General Fighting Game Discussion

[tangramman]

snip

The fundamentals of fighting games are there (spacing, blocking ... other stuff, kinda), but, regardless, with the proper assists and proper options, the fundamentals end up not counting as much as it does in SFIV (not as crazy as Mahvel but can be equally chaotic). Observe. Both Noel and CJ spam Shopping Cart and Disruptor + Teleports respectively until it works. Beyond that, it's predicting the teleports (a lot easier than it looks with no online lag, though YouTube doesn't show it) and punishing the whiffs/dropped combos. Because of the Mahvel system, it literally can turn the match to being won to being lost instantly. This is unlikely to happen in SFIV and I could never see it happening in Super Turbo; the former you can come back because of the Ultra meter and skill, while the latter is (virtually) pure skill. All this considered, I still like playing UMvC3, it's fun, but it's the stupidest kind of fun. Reducing the standard damage from medium to low could possibly solve the problem of spamming or at least hamper it, but, meh, it's Mahvel, so, oh well.

snip

Skill is way the hell too multi-layered to be reduced down to an easily definable definition; it can include everything you listed. Like you also said, however, winning is ultimately the goal, no matter the ways to get there. Brainless, like I said, is an exaggeration, but it still has some merit. UMvC3 isn't the kind of game where you learn Wesker's, Dormammu's and C. Viper's BnBs and suddenly you're Umehara, but so long as you're playing characters with the most options and abusing them to the fullest extent, you'll go far (but only so far, of course; skill inserts itself in there eventually).

Anyway, I'm both rambling and bad at fighting games, so, take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Changing the topic, is KOFXIII an absolute buy? I know nothing of the game, beyond stuff posted on srk's front page.

 

[lilyhollow]

I actually do think that's a good change of topic because I don't want an excuse to ramble further on a topic that's ultimately pretty unimportant. =P

Not sure about KoFXIII. The consensus seems to be "amazing game, possibly best of 2011, but will enough people play it? Also terrible online." I heard they're going to be patching the online, though. I'll probably buy it if that actually happens, because it does look good.

 

[andysensei]

What Viscant is describing is a pretty specific thing though. Yeah, in UMvC3 you can do some really repetitive shit and be successful with it. There are still plenty of elements of spacing and team-building and meter management and whatever else, though, that are super big deals and separate good players from bad players and great players from good players. So you can describe the game as "brainless" I guess, but that's really if you're only talking about strict moment-to-moment tactical decisions (which, yeah, are pretty weak in MvC3 compared to games where resets actually matter and you have to try different mixups and stuff).

Actually what Viscant is describing is the fact that the game the risk / reward of the game is beyond stupid.

I've played a lot of GG in my life, from casuals to tourney, against a fair deal of the east's best, and I have fairly decent reactions for punishing things like air dashing in with an air throw, etc.

99% of the time wesker's teleport on me, I can get a free air throw out of it, on reaction.

But, with out burning x-factor or some other resource, it takes like 3 air throw combos to kill him.

Whereas one error or mistimed move, means his H teleport into cross up jS kills me.

In other words, these strategies have "counters" but, the counters to them, aren't nearly good enough to stop them. So, why use your brain, and think about doing something else, when you just keep doing the same auto pilot strats with your brain off, and end up winning?

I mean, yeah, there's an element of thought put into your team order, rotation, dhc set ups, anchor slot, etc. As well as pre-created mix ups and set ups - but all of that is pre-game.

In the actual game, there's no active thought, you don't think about your play, reflect on decisions and outcomes, etc. you just do shit until works.

 

[UltiMario]

In the actual game, there's no active thought, you don't think about your play, reflect on decisions and outcomes, etc. you just do shit until works.

Okay, you're obviously the best player on earth and saying that the game takes no thought is uncompetitioned since you put no thought into this game and everyone else sucks compared to you.

Pros obviously also put no thought or no strategy in what they do and just mash buttons until they land a combo. 2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L2L to combo all day, right?

 

[andysensei]

That's a very grand exaggeration of what I posted..

Obviously there has to be some semblance of brain activity going on, I highly doubt anyone is going to just be looking up at the ceiling, trying to mount pressure when their opponent is on the other side of the screen, that's not what I'm saying. If you understand FGs, I'm pretty sure, you'd understand what I meant.

In most games, when you're at neutral, you're thinking about your options, you weigh your best option to you least useful option, of turning the match to the point where it best suits your character. IE, if you're playing a character who wants to pressuring/mixing up, you're trying to work your way into that situation as safely as possible.
In most games you won't always go for whatever your best option for that is, because, obviously, counters exist for that option, and most of the time, your opponent is aware of those counters, and ready to make use of them. Therefore you want to work around those counters and attempt to put yourself in your best situation with other options. IE if running in is your best way to mount pressure, but, your opponent has a poke that shuts down your run-in game, you can run in to the range where the opponent would normally put that move out, and jump over it, and you may be able to punish him, or at the very least make him block, but, now you're in and you have what you want.. When and if the opponent is adapted and ready for this secondary option, you often move on to another tactic, until eventually, you've worked back to a point where the opponent is so concerned with countering your counter-options, he's completely forgotten about option 1, aka what you want most. These often ironically referred to as "yomi layers", as coined by David Sirlin in his critically acclaimed "Playing to Win". (not really critically acclaimed, but, the idea behind yomi layers holds true, most people just like to throw jabs at Sirlin)

In the Marvel 3 series, these layers don't really exist, because there's no need, the way risk/reward is stacked, the 'hard counter' to something like Wesker teleport jS (for most characters, a reactionary air throw), makes going to a secondary option pointless, because you can take 3-4 airthrow combos with Wesker, while landing that jS means you can usually kill.

This is where the active thought process starts going out the window. Ideas like "this worked twice, by now he most certainly has adapted to it, I should change it up" don't exist. They don't need to. You just keep doing it, whether they've adapted or not advantage is tipped in your favor, so why bother thinking it through?

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I don't play competitive Marvel, but given everyone's use of that same example over and over, it's beginning to sound like less of a problem with Marvel and more of a problem with Wesker's teleport. If you think it really is that centralizing, maybe you should be arguing that Wesker should be banned instead of arguing that UMvC3 requires no skill.

 

[Eiganjo]

Wesker is like really easy and he should have a damage reduction plus the glasses thing removed to make him fine for the way he can be used.

Im no pro player by all means, but I like playing it now and again :P
I should practice more though with some Hawkeye and Nemesis basically

 

[andysensei]

I don't play competitive Marvel, but given everyone's use of that same example over and over, it's beginning to sound like less of a problem with Marvel and more of a problem with Wesker's teleport. If you think it really is that centralizing, maybe you should be arguing that Wesker should be banned instead of arguing that UMvC3 requires no skill.

rofl no. First, the FG community doesn't ban characters, second, Wesker's not even the best character in the game. Wesker's teleport jS isn't even the best option, it's just the option I used for the example, because most people are familiar with it.

Replace with Dormammu's tri dash jS, C. Viper's tri dash jH or jS, Spencer zipline jS cross up, Dante teleport jH etc.

All of the above work the same as Wesker's teleport, and fit into my paragraph above the same way (with the exception that the counter to them isn't always the same as the main counter to Wesker teleporting). You keep doing it, and the risk is generally outweighed 5 fold by the reward.

edit: I don't know why people keep confusing brainless with not taking skill. A fighting game challenges multiple skills of the player. Marvel 3 takes skills in the sense that some of the more powerful characters require semi strict execution, as well as defense definitely will test your reactions, the neutral game takes skill in the sense of making full use of your movement options, it's just the active thought/reading your opponent that takes a good deal of brain work out of the equation.

 

[Glen]

what are your thoughts on morrigan

 

[UltiMario]

You're complaining about Characters being ridiculously good at doing something stupidly broken in a game about characters being ridiculously good at doing stupidly broken, basically.

 

[andysensei]

You're complaining about Characters being ridiculously good at doing something stupidly broken in a game about characters being ridiculously good at doing stupidly broken, basically.

See, if you understood fighting games, you'd see where I'm coming from.

Marvel 2 was pretty broken, and that's what made it fun.. But, it wasn't mindless at all. Magneto had a plethora of retarded options for offense, especially when paired with a character like Psylocke, and Magneto USED those options. He didn't just lolderp the same shit over and over. One, because he couldn't depend on the fact that a single hit confirm would kill a character, so he actually had to mix you up 3-4 times before he killed you, and two, because there were actual counters to his shit. Counters that mattered. Counters that made him think twice about mindlessly going at you.

Marvel 3 eliminated that. One mix up kills, and the "counters" to those mix ups usually risk way more than they reward.

The funny thing is, Marvel 3's tiers are a lot tighter than Marvel 2's were, while Marvel 2 offered a more diverse game.

 

[UltiMario]

That was also after 7-10 years of metagame evolution.

The game hasn't even been out a year, and not even in this form for 3 months. You're judging the game by its baby phases.

After a while, OSes and such will be important. People will actually be able to play the game at the top level. At this point, I wouldn't even say a third of the cast has even gotten enough representations to even start being fleshed out. I doubt even the top tiers of right now will be the same in like 2-3 years.

I can't think of a single popular fighting game that turned out what people thought it would be when it was in its early days. Marvel 3 will be no different. You're seriously underestimating the depths of fighting games by saying if OSes are worthless now, they'll still be worthless by the end of the game's lifespan. It doesn't work like that. It's never worked like that.

If Marvel is brainless, then so is every other fighting game, because apparently only the baby steps of every fighting game matter.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

rofl no. First, the FG community doesn't ban characters

Oh, my, please do continue to educate me. My years of tournament fighting game experience don't seem to have prepared me for your overwhelming knowledge. Silly me, I thought that the bans on Akuma in SF2, Meta Knight in SSBB, both Hilde and Algol in SC4, and Gill in SF3: Third Strike, just to name a few, were actually a real thing and not something I hallucinated. Thanks for the correction.

See, if you understood fighting games, you'd see where I'm coming from.

Oh, never mind. This guy is just a troll. Carry on.

 

[Xaqwais]

what are your thoughts on morrigan

Morrigan is pretty cool, her combos are pretty cool once she gets the reflect going but I mean it's not worth it just for that.

I am trying to make a not terrible team, currently rocking Captain America, Dormammu, Sentinel, but I really need to a)make my Dormammu better and b)probably find a better anchor over Sentinel.

Wish I could use Magneto or Doom and then I could just try and emulate MastaCJ but Mag combos are way above my head while Doom midscreen is too difficult to me, I don't even know which part I'm doing wrong.

 

[Glen]

Morrigan is pretty cool, her combos are pretty cool once she gets the reflect going but I mean it's not worth it just for that.

I am trying to make a not terrible team, currently rocking Captain America, Dormammu, Sentinel, but I really need to a)make my Dormammu better and b)probably find a better anchor over Sentinel.

Wish I could use Magneto or Doom and then I could just try and emulate MastaCJ but Mag combos are way above my head while Doom midscreen is too difficult to me, I don't even know which part I'm doing wrong.

i didnt mean her efficacy so much as whether or not her new mirror image fireball spam mechanics ruin the game. i know the game isnt anywhere near balanced but watching high-level morrigan mirrors is lamer than dark phoenix ever was

i don't play but it's a really enjoyable spectator sport to me, and i normally watch all of big two every week. are there any frequent east coast streams? getting tired of dieminion lol

 

[Darkaxis]

So hows the story mode of the game? I haven't had the chance to play it..

 

[Xaqwais]

Bad, haha. Some of the endings are nice (like Marvel Zombies mentioned for Frank West) but the stories themselves aren't like rewarding or anything. Multiplayer is the game's strong point and selling point and Capcom knows that.

Also glen I wasn't intending on saying Morrigan is like a bad character or whatever I was just saying I don't have much fun playing her. As for streams I think sp00ky streams Wednesday nights but I don't even know the name of that tournament series.

 

[lilyhollow]

I actually get surprised when I remember that some people don't love watching zoners in Marvel. Dieminion is one of my favorite players and his Morrigan is great to watch.

As for her "ruining the game" though, I mean, she's in one-touch-kill city, so no. I guess repeated mirror-fireball spam can be annoying to watch for some, but I don't see it as a problem with the game per se. You have to make the decision to use that meter in the first place, after all.

 

[andysensei]

Oh, my, please do continue to educate me. My years of tournament fighting game experience don't seem to have prepared me for your overwhelming knowledge. Silly me, I thought that the bans on Akuma in SF2, Meta Knight in SSBB, both Hilde and Algol in SC4, and Gill in SF3: Third Strike, just to name a few, were actually a real thing and not something I hallucinated. Thanks for the correction.



Oh, never mind. This guy is just a troll. Carry on.

lololol

Smash isn't a fighting game, gtfo. ST Akuma, and Gill are boss chars.. That's like saying GG community should ban Eddie because they also ban EX/Shadow/Gold chars.

I guess I should rephrase what I said though. The ACTUAL fighting game community (ie not smash) doesn't ban STANDARD, NON-BOSS, NON-CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE characters.. though console exclusive chars are standard anymore anyway because the scene has largely moved away from arcade play.

That was also after 7-10 years of metagame evolution.

The game hasn't even been out a year, and not even in this form for 3 months. You're judging the game by its baby phases.

After a while, OSes and such will be important. People will actually be able to play the game at the top level. At this point, I wouldn't even say a third of the cast has even gotten enough representations to even start being fleshed out. I doubt even the top tiers of right now will be the same in like 2-3 years.

I can't think of a single popular fighting game that turned out what people thought it would be when it was in its early days. Marvel 3 will be no different. You're seriously underestimating the depths of fighting games by saying if OSes are worthless now, they'll still be worthless by the end of the game's lifespan. It doesn't work like that. It's never worked like that.

If Marvel is brainless, then so is every other fighting game, because apparently only the baby steps of every fighting game matter.

We live in a way different world than we did when Marvel 2 first came out.

The community cracks games open at a way faster rate than it did in the early 2000s.

Not to mention games are arguably less deep these days anyway. Wtf kind of option select do you really think will be found that's going to change marvel from "land hit > kill character"?

The entire basis of the game is to completely simplify it's older, more intimidating iterations. hence X-factor, hence the retarded damage output, hence the ease of execution, etc.

No type of option select will change the fact that just going in for a hit, and converting a kill off of it is how the game is played. It's designed that way.

i didnt mean her efficacy so much as whether or not her new mirror image fireball spam mechanics ruin the game. i know the game isnt anywhere near balanced but watching high-level morrigan mirrors is lamer than dark phoenix ever was

i don't play but it's a really enjoyable spectator sport to me, and i normally watch all of big two every week. are there any frequent east coast streams? getting tired of dieminion lol

It kinda balances itself, in that it burns bars to do it, and while it frustrates the opponent, if they wait it out, all it takes is one hit to kill Morrigan. It's circumvented with things like meter assists, but, one error leads to the mistake that ends her.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

This week's Friday Night Fights is really getting me excited, now that I am getting a picture of how the game looks with good hitconfirms, anti-airs, and real BnBs. This video also has (finally) some really solid Cerebella play.

Am I the only one noticing a trend in favor of solo characters though? As good as assists are, solo characters just have so much health and damage, which can go really far for a character with good pokes and abare, like Parasoul or Valentine. As much as I want to be using a custom assist from Peacock to projectile zone and let me get in for grab combos with Cerebella, I am worried that winning will just require me to get through Parasoul's zoning too many times, while she only needs to land 2-3 BnBs to get a KO.

 

[lilyhollow]

I really doubt solo characters will remain the go-to standard for long (if ever). I feel like the rewards of tightened execution and improved matchup knowledge over time will just be so much bigger for multi-character teams. Assists seem pretty strong, so if anything I'm looking at two-character teams making the biggest overall splash.

The ACTUAL fighting game community (ie not smash) doesn't ban STANDARD, NON-BOSS, NON-CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE characters.

Actually Akuma was banned in HDR (where he was not an intentionally-overpowered character), and in fact was banned before there was even a widespread consensus that he was broken in a knee-jerk "we must ban him to save the community" sort of move. Also, I believe many in the TvC community banned the giants, who were standard (if nontraditional) characters, late in the game's lifespan. The SC4 examples Res gave seem true as well.

Not to be nitpicky, but your post is kind of rude anyway so I don't feel too bad. =P

 

[Robo-Ky]

lololol

Smash isn't a fighting game, gtfo. ST Akuma, and Gill are boss chars.. That's like saying GG community should ban Eddie because they also ban EX/Shadow/Gold chars.

I guess I should rephrase what I said though. The ACTUAL fighting game community (ie not smash) doesn't ban STANDARD, NON-BOSS, NON-CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE characters.. though console exclusive chars are standard anymore anyway because the scene has largely moved away from arcade play.

Either you're impossibly ignorant, or you're trolling.

On solo/assist characters in Skullgirls, characters with good pokes and zoning on their own would benefit most from going solo. Also, once assist teams are down a character or two against a solo character, erasing that deficit will be a huge challenge. The custom assists are awesome, though, and I agree that as matchup and character knowledge expand, we'll start to see more varied teams. For now, though, solo characters will be most prominent.

 

[UltiMario]

lololol

Smash isn't a fighting game, gtfo. ST Akuma, and Gill are boss chars.. That's like saying GG community should ban Eddie because they also ban EX/Shadow/Gold chars.

I now realize how unintelligent/trolly you are.

You should be the one to GTFO of this thread.

 

[gsninja]

lololol

Smash isn't a fighting game, gtfo. ST Akuma, and Gill are boss chars.. That's like saying GG community should ban Eddie because they also ban EX/Shadow/Gold chars.

I guess I should rephrase what I said though. The ACTUAL fighting game community (ie not smash) doesn't ban STANDARD, NON-BOSS, NON-CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE characters.. though console exclusive chars are standard anymore anyway because the scene has largely moved away from arcade play.

I know Smash isn't a traditional fighting game by any means, but it is one, period. I don't know what it is with you people that are so vehemently against Smash being considered a fighting game series.

 

[Raikage]

Just so everyone knows, there's tons of players who really hate on Marvel that way (myself included). Playing Marvel 3 seriously is like trolling yourself, the fun comes from watching other people or playing it for fun only.