General Fighting Game Discussion

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So am I missing something or is the only thing that makes Continuum Shift Extend worth getting Relius Clover?

I'm pretty sure there are balance changes too.

There are. In fact, those balance changes are more of a selling point for me than Relius. They are continuing their effort to make every character viable. I don't want to flood this thread with a log of all the changes, but basically they have brought the damage down a little on the degenerate top tier like Makoto and Noel and given buffs to characters like Tager, Bang, and Hakumen who really needed them. For instance, Tager's magnetic pull is much stronger now, so you can do things like lift knocked down people off the ground with Atomic Collider and red beat into a j.2C. Meanwhile, Noel's midscreen 2D has lost about 1,000-2,000 damage per combo.

@Zystral
I do agree with your assessment of the characters. Ragna has great pressure aside from his crappy mixup game (his only two overheads, Gauntlet Hades and 6B, both have long startups). I actually think that his predictable blockstrings are his biggest weakness and that opening the opponent up is the biggest skill tester with him.

Of course I love Jin for the reasons you mentioned also. Jin is great at controlling the pace of the match, making Makoto play cautiously or forcing Tager to try to approach (and then punishing either one of them for it). He's much more fun, both to play as and to play against, than the other two members of the CS2 top 3, Makoto and Noel, who both just do the same combo over and over and get 6k every time. That's what is going to be great about CS:E.

 

[lilyhollow]

We're gonna have to play some CS2 at some point, lol. Haven't really bothered learning Jin's new stuff but whatever, I need an excuse to play that game again.

Is there any word on how costly Extend is going to be? Free again, maybe?? >_>;

 

[CaptainKishimoto]

Doubt it since it's coming out in disc-form. Also, to follow up on gems, they apparently cannot be disabled as it is considered too important towards gameplay.

 

[Raikage]

Relius has unblockables. Also, Relius is vastly different as a shadow character compared to Carl because the speeds of the principal character and the secondary character are swapped between the father-son pair. Relius/Ignis' slow/fast speeds, coupled with Relius' lack of real normals, means that Relius is much more reliant on Ignis to get in. This is pretty different compared to Carl because Carl's pretty fast and could just do something like IAD j.2C and then do a RC combo into 22]D[ to summon Nirvana instead of relying on the Nee-san.

Also, since we're talking about Extend (which is a full-price disc); it's a step up over CS2 imo. The only things I don't like are: Hakumen, the fact that they still managed to fuck up Hazama, and lack of nerfs on Valk. I suppose the buff to grabs midscreen is an indirect nerf on Haku and makes him more manageable, but I'll chalk the other two down to design errors. Can't get everything right.

Also, for the record, Jin wasn't really as strong as Hazama in CS2. Jin was about as good as Valk and Litchi imo. Not as strong as the other NOL characters.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I'm not sure to whom you're responding with the first part. I don't think anyone said that Relius plays the same as Carl. I said that I don't think Relius is different enough from other rushdown characters; unlike with Carl, I think that the puppet is not independent enough. He is really more similar to Litchi than Carl; although his puppet is obviously much more versatile than her stick, it's used for the same things: crossups, mixups, and zoning.

I disagree on Hazama being better than Jin, although I definitely see your point. Hazama has very limited tools, predictable combos, and a huge reliance on meter (i.e., Jayoku Houtenjin) for real damage. It just so happens that his few tools really shut down certain characters, giving him an unusually large number of extremely lopsided matchups. It's difficult for Tager, Rachel, Hakumen, Tsubaki, etc. to do much of anything to him. But characters able to deal with his chain zoning, like Carl and Valkenhayn, can shut him down easily. Meanwhile, Jin has a 55-45 advantage over almost everyone (and no really bad matchups).

With Jin, if you are a better player than your opponent, you will win nearly every time. I personally prefer that to Hazama, having a 65-35 matchup against the bottom half of the tier list but needing all the Guile's Themes in the world to beat some characters. I will say that Hazama has a few really versatile combos, while Jin has to flow more, so Hazama is by far the easier character to get from "scrub" to "win a few tourney rounds," which is definitely a point in his favor.

Also, Valk does have a couple of nerfs. I haven't followed the thread that closely since I don't use him, but I know that Eisen Wolf is unsafe on block now (making approaching much harder) and that the proration has been nerfed on a bunch of his moves, including at least one new repeat proration. So no "nerfs" in that all of his combos still work, but like with Noel, they've just shaved off 10-15% from pretty much all of his BnBs. It may not be as much as you wanted (or as much as he deserved), but it's something.

What they do NOT appear to have done, and what I wish they had done, is nuke Makoto from orbit. I am so sick of seeing her on tournament streams, doing the same thing over and over and getting paid for it every time. I would prefer she ended up B-tier like what they did to Bang in CS2. At least they reduced the untechable time on a ton of her moves and gave her some proration nerfs, so here's hoping.

 

[Raikage]

I'm not sure to whom you're responding with the first part. I don't think anyone said that Relius plays the same as Carl. I said that I don't think Relius is different enough from other rushdown characters; unlike with Carl, I think that the puppet is not independent enough. He is really more similar to Litchi than Carl; although his puppet is obviously much more versatile than her stick, it's used for the same things: crossups, mixups, and zoning.

Relius is more different compared to Litchi than CS2 Makoto VS CS2 Ragna. Things like meter management and, as you pointed out yourself, the versatility of Ignis means the two characters aren't the same at all. Especially when Litchi's normals are retardedly better compared to Relius'. As for Makoto, she did everything Ragna did but better. This isn't my own opinion either, many posts on BBS said pretty much the same thing. The only thing Ragna had was a much better DP. Makoto's 5B was good enough to make any difference compared to Ragna's 5B negligible in the face of her other advantages.

I disagree on Hazama being better than Jin, although I definitely see your point. Hazama has very limited tools, predictable combos, and a huge reliance on meter (i.e., Jayoku Houtenjin) for real damage. It just so happens that his few tools really shut down certain characters, giving him an unusually large number of extremely lopsided matchups. It's difficult for Tager, Rachel, Hakumen, Tsubaki, etc. to do much of anything to him. But characters able to deal with his chain zoning, like Carl and Valkenhayn, can shut him down easily. Meanwhile, Jin has a 55-45 advantage over almost everyone (and no really bad matchups).

Hazama's tools aren't limited at all. I'll need you to elaborate more on that. Chains are pretty much the best zoning tool in the game and coupled with his extremely stupid normals and specials make him extremely powerful. I don't know what you mean by predictable combos, I assume you mean his mix-up is predictable which it definitely isn't. His fundamental weakness is a weak defense but that isn't nearly a big enough problem.

With Jin, if you are a better player than your opponent, you will win nearly every time. I personally prefer that to Hazama, having a 65-35 matchup against the bottom half of the tier list but needing all the Guile's Themes in the world to beat some characters. I will say that Hazama has a few really versatile combos, while Jin has to flow more, so Hazama is by far the easier character to get from "scrub" to "win a few tourney rounds," which is definitely a point in his favor.

Hazama has no bad match-ups. Makoto/Jin/Noel-Hazama is 5-5 at worst. Makoto-Jin is 6-4.

Also, Valk does have a couple of nerfs. I haven't followed the thread that closely since I don't use him, but I know that Eisen Wolf is unsafe on block now (making approaching much harder) and that the proration has been nerfed on a bunch of his moves, including at least one new repeat proration. So no "nerfs" in that all of his combos still work, but like with Noel, they've just shaved off 10-15% from pretty much all of his BnBs. It may not be as much as you wanted (or as much as he deserved), but it's something.

3C is special cancellable. Thankfully they nerfed wolf 5B but that buff basically meant that all the other nerfs weren't going to have enough impact.

What they do NOT appear to have done, and what I wish they had done, is nuke Makoto from orbit. I am so sick of seeing her on tournament streams, doing the same thing over and over and getting paid for it every time. I would prefer she ended up B-tier like what they did to Bang in CS2. At least they reduced the untechable time on a ton of her moves and gave her some proration nerfs, so here's hoping.

Makoto sucks, what are you talking about? I was hoping they wouldn't nerf her too much, but yeah, they went overboard on her imo.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Here is the matchup data Arcadia Monthly compiled while building their tier list (which I'll admit does put Hazama above Jin). This data was gathered from the top players in Japan. Hazama loses to Carl and Valk (and goes even with Jin as you say) and Makoto only beats Jin 55-45 (check out Solex against 2GB Combo in the finals of the last NCI to see a Jin wreck a Makoto). Neither Jin nor Hazama has a matchup worse than 45-55. Hazama has a larger number of matchups that heavily favor him, but Jin has more 55-45s and fewer 50-50s. Overall, Jin has two losing matchups and three even matchups. Hazama also has two losing matchups but also has five even matchups. That's what I was talking about.

As for Hazama having few tools, you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that chain zoning wasn't incredibly good (although I don't think it's the "best" zoning; Lambda's drives would be better if she had more damage with which to capitalize on them). I'm saying that it's just one tool. Houtenjin is another. The 214D~A overhead is another. Learning how to read his mixup and respect his meter are things that good players learn how to do.

Hazama is incredibly strong. I just don't think he's quite as strong as Jin. The tools he has are brutal. I just don't think they outweigh Jin's versatile and unrelenting suite of ice car oki, DPs (including the loop), 5D/j.C zoning, projectiles, incredible DDs, etc. I'm not saying that Hazama isn't A+ tier.

I think you are underestimating how much less damage Valk has with his proration nerfs.

Makoto can't suck enough. CS2 Makoto is the most boring character ever. She's not even a fun kind of broken, with crazy loops or something. She's just like, "Oh did you get hit with my super fast overhead? I guess I'll redbeat into 5k, take you to the corner, and knock you down. Oh, did you get caught by my corner projectile oki and take another hit on wakeup? I guess I'll redbeat that into 5k too. Oh, I have 50 meter? Sorry, make that 6k. Thanks for coming out."

 

[Raikage]

Here is the matchup data Arcadia Monthly compiled while building their tier list (which I'll admit does put Hazama above Jin). This data was gathered from the top players in Japan. Hazama loses to Carl and Valk (and goes even with Jin as you say) and Makoto only beats Jin 55-45 (check out Solex against 2GB Combo in the finals of the last NCI to see a Jin wreck a Makoto). Neither Jin nor Hazama has a matchup worse than 45-55. Hazama has a larger number of matchups that heavily favor him, but Jin has more 55-45s and fewer 50-50s. Overall, Jin has two losing matchups and three even matchups. Hazama also has two losing matchups but also has five even matchups. That's what I was talking about.

So, Hazama has better match-ups than Jin. What you say here is also completely different from what you originally said.

As for Hazama having few tools, you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that chain zoning wasn't incredibly good (although I don't think it's the "best" zoning; Lambda's drives would be better if she had more damage with which to capitalize on them). I'm saying that it's just one tool. Houtenjin is another. The 214D~A overhead is another. Learning how to read his mixup and respect his meter are things that good players learn how to do.

What are you trying to say here? Every thing is 'just one tool'. You can say that 'WELL YOU CAN JUST READ HIS MIXUP' but that is understating things incredibly. By that logic almost nothing is too powerful.

Hazama is incredibly strong. I just don't think he's quite as strong as Jin. The tools he has are brutal. I just don't think they outweigh Jin's versatile and unrelenting suite of ice car oki, DPs (including the loop), 5D/j.C zoning, projectiles, incredible DDs, etc. I'm not saying that Hazama isn't A+ tier.

So you quote Arcadia and then disagree with them? Hazama's tools are way more versatile than Jin, but I don't see the point in arguing this with you since you already said you disagree with Japan.

I think you are underestimating how much less damage Valk has with his proration nerfs.

Not enough. There's no way we can argue this really (how? 'Well Valk does 2000 damage here so it's not that good' is not going to work) so I'll just say that Valk is definitely going to be S-Tier in the tier lists because of how strong he is. If you think that that isn't a good measure than there's probably no way for me to convince you anyway.

Makoto can't suck enough. CS2 Makoto is the most boring character ever. She's not even a fun kind of broken, with crazy loops or something. She's just like, "Oh did you get hit with my super fast overhead? I guess I'll redbeat into 5k, take you to the corner, and knock you down. Oh, did you get caught by my corner projectile oki and take another hit on wakeup? I guess I'll redbeat that into 5k too. Oh, I have 50 meter? Sorry, make that 6k. Thanks for coming out."

However broken a character was in the previous version, it doesn't mean that it's right for a character to be very bad in the next. The aim of the developer should always be to make all characters viable. Makoto isn't even a character with a stupid character design like Arakune, so there's no problems in making her viable. Also, getting hit by 6B doesn't do 5K meterless regardless of midscreen or corner. If you roll against comet oki you are dumb. In the first place, if you let Makoto get in and can't block the mix-up, you deserved to lose anyway. The only problem was she had to get it right only twice. Makoto was in no way more unmanageable than the top tiers from the previous Blazblue games, but I don't see you whining about Litchi and Ara.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Ok, there's no way to have this discussion if you are going to take everything so personally. Yep, Hazama is better than Jin, CS:E Valk is S-tier, and CS2 Makoto isn't all that good.

 

[Raikage]

I think I've been pretty objective. I've in no way attacked you personally except for the very last comment and I think I've approached the argument pretty logically, except for those things which are mostly based on opinion like 'Valk's damage nerf is enough to make him not good'.

 

[lilyhollow]

settle it with a ft10, yeahhhhhhhhh

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

But you weren't being logical. You picked and chose certain things I said. For instance, you pointed out that I quote Arcadia then disagree. I wasn't trying to hide this. I specifically said that I disagree with their final tiering but respect their data. The tiering isn't just based on the data. Note that Noel has only a +3 overall matchup score, putting her below both Hazama and Jin, not to mention Taokaka, Valkenhayn, Carl, and Makoto, yet they ultimately tiered her second overall. I believe that the entire thesis of my earlier post was that, like Noel, Jin should be above Hazama despite having a lower overall matchup score, because I think that a lot of 55-45 matchups is better than a few 60-40 matchups and a bunch of 50-50 ones, even though the latter spread gives a better "score." You also said that it's different from what I originally said, but it's exactly what I originally said.

Also, you claim to have refuted my "illogical" argument that the numerical damage output of Valkenhayn's BnBs has decreased with a "logical" argument that he will quote "be S-Tier in the tier lists because of how strong he is." I guess I simply disagree that your argument is significantly more logical than mine. Both are speculation until people have a chance to play more. Obviously Valkenhayn is going to fare well in tournaments right now regardless of his power level because he had so few changes. Top CS2 Valkenhayn players are able to do what they have always done, while top players of significantly changed characters, like Makoto, Tager, Taokaka, etc., are having to learn entirely new BnBs.

I have repeatedly gone out of my way to frame my arguments as "I see your point, but..." You have repeatedly framed your arguments as "No intellectually honest person with a working knowledge of the game could disagree with the assessment that..." That's what I meant by taking it personally, perhaps a poor choice of words. The fact is that many top players agree with what I have said. In a recent stream, former NCI Champion Dacidbro remarked that Jin could conceivably end up #2 overall, above both Hazama and Noel, if CS2 stuck around for a couple of more years because his high level play is so unpredictable compared to other A-tier characters. The other casters and the stream chat (which included top players) agreed that it was at least possible. The crossup game that Solex has been bringing lately is totally different from what top Jins have done in the past.

Bottom line, I just don't think it's a productive discussion. Arguing over the exact order of the tier list is pointless when we both know that all of the characters can win major tournaments except for Tager. Hell, third-from-the-bottom Hakumen won two different major tournaments in the hands of two different players in the span of a couple of months (Walljumpman at NCI and Spark at Evo). We have totally derailed this thread debating whether Jin is 85% awesome or 87% awesome, to Hazama's 86% awesome, or whether CS:E Valkenhayn will be S-tier or A-tier. There's not really any point in belaboring it any further.

 

[lilyhollow]

Just watched a couple of Solex's matches, definitely a solid Jin. But what do you mean by "crossup game," exactly? Are you just talking about his use of fake crossup j.236d, or what?

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

He definitely does that, but also stuff like 2D crossunder, j.D crossunder, or he'll fake a j.2C approach and instead jump all the way over and go into a ground blockstring from the other side. He also does stuff with ice car, like in one match I saw where he was in the corner and started to jump out, but he predicted his opponent to super jump to try to hit him (which he did), and he did an IAD to go under the hit and threw a 214C going back into the corner to catch his opponent on the way back down. Totally sick, especially given that he's also excellent at running Jin's normal ground mixup game with 6A RC.

Check out this video. Watch the combo starting at 0:40, the j.D he does at around 1:37, and the j.2Cs starting around 5:36.

 

[Raikage]

But you weren't being logical. You picked and chose certain things I said. For instance, you pointed out that I quote Arcadia then disagree. I wasn't trying to hide this. I specifically said that I disagree with their final tiering but respect their data. The tiering isn't just based on the data. Note that Noel has only a +3 overall matchup score, putting her below both Hazama and Jin, not to mention Taokaka, Valkenhayn, Carl, and Makoto, yet they ultimately tiered her second overall. I believe that the entire thesis of my earlier post was that, like Noel, Jin should be above Hazama despite having a lower overall matchup score, because I think that a lot of 55-45 matchups is better than a few 60-40 matchups and a bunch of 50-50 ones, even though the latter spread gives a better "score." You also said that it's different from what I originally said, but it's exactly what I originally said.

Generally, I try not to infer what the other party is saying during an argument in case of a misunderstanding. but in this case, in your first post you say 'But characters able to deal with his chain zoning, like Carl and Valkenhayn, can shut him down easily. Meanwhile, Jin has a 55-45 advantage over almost everyone (and no really bad matchups).', and then you later say 'I personally prefer that to Hazama, having a 65-35 matchup against the bottom half of the tier list but needing all the Guile's Themes in the world to beat some characters.' Both of these statements don't comply with what you say later, because those statements imply Hazama has significantly bad match-ups against Carl and Valkenhayn, which he doesn't - he has a small disadvantage over Carl and Valkenhayn.

Additionally, I didn't really want to bring this up because I have no evidence other than my own word but that match-up chart isn't even reliable. It was out within 2 months of CS2 and nobody I've talked to on Dustloop has ever said it was from Arcadia. The last tier list by Arcadia, which as you pointed out has major differences from the spreadsheet, was released significantly later.

Also, you claim to have refuted my "illogical" argument that the numerical damage output of Valkenhayn's BnBs has decreased with a "logical" argument that he will quote "be S-Tier in the tier lists because of how strong he is." I guess I simply disagree that your argument is significantly more logical than mine. Both are speculation until people have a chance to play more. Obviously Valkenhayn is going to fare well in tournaments right now regardless of his power level because he had so few changes. Top CS2 Valkenhayn players are able to do what they have always done, while top players of significantly changed characters, like Makoto, Tager, Taokaka, etc., are having to learn entirely new BnBs.

I've never said that you were illogical in any of my posts. What I said was that the buff (special cancellable 3C) was good enough to make his nerfs not significant enough. What I mean is this kind of thing can't really be argued (the same thing you say here), so I decided to state a qualifier - Valk's tier placing in the future. It's fine if you disagree with that.

I have repeatedly gone out of my way to frame my arguments as "I see your point, but..." You have repeatedly framed your arguments as "No intellectually honest person with a working knowledge of the game could disagree with the assessment that..." That's what I meant by taking it personally, perhaps a poor choice of words. The fact is that many top players agree with what I have said. In a recent stream, former NCI Champion Dacidbro remarked that Jin could conceivably end up #2 overall, above both Hazama and Noel, if CS2 stuck around for a couple of more years because his high level play is so unpredictable compared to other A-tier characters. The other casters and the stream chat (which included top players) agreed that it was at least possible. The crossup game that Solex has been bringing lately is totally different from what top Jins have done in the past.

Maybe I've been phrasing my posts in a very brash manner but I assure you I have no intentions of slighting your intelligence. I'm not saying that it's not impossible for Jin to be the #2 character. Perhaps I should have just tacked 'imo' on all of my sentences. But certainly I think it is far more likely that Hazama and Noel are above him. At the very least, I've talked to top players myself on IRC and they also think Jin is not as strong as you say. Jin's cross-up game has been known for quite awhile so I have to disagree with you there.

Bottom line, I just don't think it's a productive discussion. Arguing over the exact order of the tier list is pointless when we both know that all of the characters can win major tournaments except for Tager. Hell, third-from-the-bottom Hakumen won two different major tournaments in the hands of two different players in the span of a couple of months (Walljumpman at NCI and Spark at Evo). We have totally derailed this thread debating whether Jin is 85% awesome or 87% awesome, to Hazama's 86% awesome, or whether CS:E Valkenhayn will be S-tier or A-tier. There's not really any point in belaboring it any further.

I don't see a problem with having a discussion, but it's fine if you don't want to.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

ok that's legit.

To be clear, I do agree with you that Noel is #2, if for no other reason than the fact that her best combos are much easier than most characters', including Hazama and Jin. Even the best Hazamas occasionally drop something difficult like a mid-combo 623D or a 6C>dash>5C. Likewise, even the best Jins will drop a 623C link to 5B in the corner or whiff a tight link to Hiyoku Getsumei. Hell, that's why people never use 100 meter with Jin to do RC Yukikaze hijinks, even though they are really powerful: it's too easy to drop it. Top Noels basically never drop 2D>take them to the corner>Fenrir. That alone is enough that I think she's #2; she's just so consistent.

Anyway, I don't think there's a lot else to say about either Jin/Hazama tiering or CS:E Valk. Obviously most people agree with you about the former and the latter is speculative at best. Sorry it got a little heated; I do enjoy the discussion.

Let me ask you this: what do you think of two other significantly changed CS:E characters to which I alluded earlier, Taokaka and Tager? Tao lost midscreen damage with the decreased untechable time on j.8D~A, but her new 6C and other changes seem really strong. Tager has gotten a ton of powerful buffs. Have you seen the combo where magnetized 5A midscreen goes to 2600 and 63 heat?

 

[Zystral]

/me scrub butts into balance discussion about tiers

I've heard about the Tager buffs, and bad memories from CT make me shudder.

One thing I've noticed in playing Jin is that it's notoriously difficult to regain pressure once you've lost it. I know a good Jin will never really lose an advantageous point once its gained, but give me a break, I've never actually played a human opponent. For example I set the AI to "Very Hard" (on CT), went for a round in Score Attack. Got past Bang, but Taokaka raped me aerially. I honestly had no idea what was going on and just had to keep spamming A-Blizzard and Rehyou to even get damage in.

Put it this way; I used to play SSBM. What's the best advice for changing from that to BB? I already know a lot of Jin combos, and I've done a fair share of improvising, but I still need to improve my cross-up/mix-up game. Also I'm playing in CT, not CS because I lack a PS3, and CS2 Portable isn't out yet.

 

[lilyhollow]

He definitely does that, but also stuff like 2D crossunder, j.D crossunder, or he'll fake a j.2C approach and instead jump all the way over and go into a ground blockstring from the other side. He also does stuff with ice car, like in one match I saw where he was in the corner and started to jump out, but he predicted his opponent to super jump to try to hit him (which he did), and he did an IAD to go under the hit and threw a 214C going back into the corner to catch his opponent on the way back down. Totally sick, especially given that he's also excellent at running Jin's normal ground mixup game with 6A RC.

Check out this video. Watch the combo starting at 0:40, the j.D he does at around 1:37, and the j.2Cs starting around 5:36.

j.D and j.236D stuff has been around since CT, and the reason you don't see it too much is that it's kind of a gimmick. They can crouch to both avoid the j.D and block the j.236D, and just react to crossup j.b/j.c or whatever. It's probably better now than it was in CS1, since Jin was so meter-reliant in that game, but unless something's changed it's mostly just useful against complacent blocking.

Not sure about the other stuff cuz I suck!

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

j.D and j.236D stuff has been around since CT, and the reason you don't see it too much is that it's kind of a gimmick. They can crouch to both avoid the j.D and block the j.236D, and just react to crossup j.b/j.c or whatever. It's probably better now than it was in CS1, since Jin was so meter-reliant in that game, but unless something's changed it's mostly just useful against complacent blocking.

Not sure about the other stuff cuz I suck!

Right, but that's the thing. Each one of those things is one path you can take as you combo and apply pressure. You are right that, for instance, j.D crossunder is a gimmick, and you will never win doing it every time. But if you do it one time per match, or when you notice that the opponent is reacting the same way to your air game every time, it can help. What's great about Jin's crossup game is that it's rarely mandatory. It lets you be unpredictable in a way few members of the cast are.

Put it this way; I used to play SSBM. What's the best advice for changing from that to BB? I already know a lot of Jin combos, and I've done a fair share of improvising, but I still need to improve my cross-up/mix-up game. Also I'm playing in CT, not CS because I lack a PS3, and CS2 Portable isn't out yet.

One thing I would suggest is not to try to main someone like Arakune or Carl at first. Pick a basic character like Ragna or Tsubaki and just learn the system.

One of the main things you need to get away from is the Melee mindset of doing everything on reaction. Melee has much longer hitstun than BB, so that you are just reading DI and can wavedash after them and make up the combo as you go. You will rarely make up combos as you go in BB, because hitstun is so short that you need to memorize the links and cancels that let you deal good damage.

Unlike with Melee, you should start by memorizing a couple of simple combos. For example, you might learn Ragna's 5A>5B>5C>2C>214A>214D. Then learn 2A>2B>5C>2C>214A>214D, almost the same but it starts with a low. Then learn 6B>5C>2C>214A>214D, which starts with an overhead. Get all three of those down (shouldn't take that long), and start throwing out blockstrings. Throw out a couple of quick 5As, mixup with 2As, and you'll be pretty safe on block. Mix it up more with a 6B overhead now and then, and you will find yourself landing something pretty quick. Then just do your combo.

You should do something like that before you work on crossups or anything fancy like that. Once you are throwing good mixups and confirming them into combos, then you can start doing better combos, using fancier tactics, and learning more advanced characters.

 

[CaptainKishimoto]

My god, it's amazing how much discussion there is about Blazblue! Makes me kind of sad since there was practically none when it comes to SF4/Marvel. ;-;

 

[Zystral]

This is where noobness goes maximum.
As far as I understand, to be "safe on block" means that if the opponent blocks something, you aren't going to get counter-combo-raped.
A blockstring I assume is when the opponent blocks a whole bunch of your shit?

So for mix-ups, rather than go straight from 5A>5B>5C, you're suggesting I try something such as 5A>2A>5B>6B>5C>combo? "mixup" thus I assume means "don't follow through on a combo".
Right now, all I've been doing is playing in Training mode and learning huge combos (eg 5B > 6A > 5C > 5D (1hit) > 214B > 214D > 5B > jc > JC > JD > jc > JD > 623 D + followup). You're basically suggesting get used to bashing out those combos with expert timing, but also vary the openings?

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I'll borrow Raikage's formatting.

This is where noobness goes maximum.
As far as I understand, to be "safe on block" means that if the opponent blocks something, you aren't going to get counter-combo-raped.

Yes. For instance, if you just rush in with a Hell's Fang and they block it, you are going to get destroyed. Not so with a 5A.

A blockstring I assume is when the opponent blocks a whole bunch of your shit?

Sort of, but a blockstring is what your attacks are called. A blockstring is a combo that consists entirely of fairly safe normals. Like, if you land a 5B, you can go right into 5C and do stuff. But if your 5B gets blocked, you don't want to go to fairly unsafe 5C. You would rather go to other safe moves like 5A or 2A. You do a blockstring to keep them under pressure while they are blocking your attacks in the hopes that they will make a mistake and one of your hits will land.

So for mix-ups, rather than go straight from 5A>5B>5C, you're suggesting I try something such as 5A>2A>5B>6B>5C>combo? "mixup" thus I assume means "don't follow through on a combo".

No, mixup means throwing some high, some low, and some overhead attacks in an effort to get through their defenses. So if you go 5A>2A, they may block high again and get hit by the 2A. Or they may block low because it's usually safer, in which case you can go 2A>2A>6B, lulling them into low blocking and then surprising them with the overhead. That's a mixup.

Right now, all I've been doing is playing in Training mode and learning huge combos (eg 5B > 6A > 5C > 5D (1hit) > 214B > 214D > 5B > jc > JC > JD > jc > JD > 623 D + followup). You're basically suggesting get used to bashing out those combos with expert timing, but also vary the openings?

Basically. It's called a hitconfirm. For instance, Hell's Fang is unsafe on block. But it combos out of 5C, which in turn combos out of 5B, which in turn combos out of 5A, which is safe. So you throw out safe 5As until one hits, then when it does hit, you do the whole combo into the unsafe (but powerful) Hell's Fang. You "confirm" that 5A into a combo. So if you are throwing a 5A>5A>2A>6B type mixup blockstring, you want to have a 100% stone cold memorized combo for each move in the string in case it's the one to connect.

So your flowchart would be something like:

Step 1: Look for a chance to get in and start attacking; block moves and be ready with an anti-air in case you get a chance to do it
Step 2: Get close when you get the chance to go on the offensive
Step 3: Throw out safe normals
Step 4: When a normal lands, hitconfirm it to a combo
Step 5: Either continue to apply pressure or withdraw and go to Step 1, depending on how the combo ends; Hell's Fang and Inferno Divider both have follow ups that knock them to the corner, so ending a combo with either of those helps you keep up the pressure

The three combos I listed are far, far from optimal damage for those three hitconfirms. The 5B>6A>air combo stuff you suggested is much better, for instance, any time you land a 5B (whether you did 5A first or not; 5B is a good poke in its own right). It's also a lot harder. You should focus on learning combos you can do often, so you get in the habit of turning most successful hits into hitconfirms. Then you can focus on upgrading to more optimal damage and heat gain.

 

[Paradoxus]

Im going to stray away from all the other threads and talk about UMVC3

Nova looks like an Rushdown OTG battery monster, I mean, about 80% of his moves OTG and he is able to stay up in the opponent's face constantly. I mean, he has specials for almost every situation, Characters that stay in the air, characters that try to play a good keep-away game, and I will def be maining him. Look at his hypers, One does more damage depending on how much red health he has, making it good for Hyper offense when hard hitters with small vitality try to kill him, he has a hyper that can be used as well as Super-Skrulls Inferno. His final hyper might seem like a low damage output, but it's not for damaging purposes in the slightest, its for defensive purposes. Complete invincibility, and its basically a perfect counter to people who try to do endgame X-Factor wins, and he can just pull it out of his ass like that.

 

[lilyhollow]

I think the most interesting thing about UMvC3 (besides Wright) is the question of whether zoning will really be strong in the long run like people seem to think. Zoning is like, barely feasible in Vanilla, and by feasible I mean feasible, not tourney-winning (unless you count Phoenix I guess).

So we have Dormammu, who's apparently getting a series of buffs to his zoning game, some of them quite major. Trish is apparently getting buffed a lot, I think MODOK is getting buffs (despite being kind of underexplored in Vanilla), Chris is buffed, and I'm sure there are others as well (like Arthur or something. Haven't really paid much attention). The X-Factor nerf arguably benefits zoners, and much of the old top tier (which was largely rushdown) is being nerfed too. And then you have characters like Rocket Raccoon, Dr. Strange, and possibly Phoenix Wright having seemingly strong zoning games.

Capcom has clearly put a ton of effort into making zoning actually feasible this time. But it's still like they're taking a big pile of cool-sounding ideas and shoving them into a game that seems to inherently favor rushdown. It'll be really interesting to see what happens.

 

[Raikage]

ok that's legit.

To be clear, I do agree with you that Noel is #2, if for no other reason than the fact that her best combos are much easier than most characters', including Hazama and Jin. Even the best Hazamas occasionally drop something difficult like a mid-combo 623D or a 6C>dash>5C. Likewise, even the best Jins will drop a 623C link to 5B in the corner or whiff a tight link to Hiyoku Getsumei. Hell, that's why people never use 100 meter with Jin to do RC Yukikaze hijinks, even though they are really powerful: it's too easy to drop it. Top Noels basically never drop 2D>take them to the corner>Fenrir. That alone is enough that I think she's #2; she's just so consistent.

Honestly, I don't think the difficulty of combos matter for the tier lists, because the top Japanese players do combos for each character with the same amount of consistency, and that's the level of play that tier lists apply to anyway. Noel in stronger in my opinion simply because pressuring and trying to do mix-up on her is much more scary than Hazama, so she doesn't have that vital weakness Hazama has.

Anyway, I don't think there's a lot else to say about either Jin/Hazama tiering or CS:E Valk. Obviously most people agree with you about the former and the latter is speculative at best. Sorry it got a little heated; I do enjoy the discussion.

Yeah, it's fine. It's fun to talk about the game.

Let me ask you this: what do you think of two other significantly changed CS:E characters to which I alluded earlier, Taokaka and Tager? Tao lost midscreen damage with the decreased untechable time on j.8D~A, but her new 6C and other changes seem really strong. Tager has gotten a ton of powerful buffs. Have you seen the combo where magnetized 5A midscreen goes to 2600 and 63 heat?

Yes, I know of those changes. I honestly like how Tao looks a lot in this version because she was one of those characters who weren't playing CS2 because of her midscreen damage, but that's fixed now. Both the overall nerf to Counter Assault and the individual nerf on her CA's recovery make me happy because Tao wasn't supposed to have good defense to compensate for her other strengths. In the earlier versions if she had 50 heat (say, you got hit by one combo, blocked and got out and managed to start pressuring her instead and she IBed a few hits), it was pretty easy for her to get out by using that 50 heat, especially since she didn't really need heat for anything else. So the new changes make Tao a much better designed character imo, even if she is weaker.

A lot of what Tager got are still gimmicks like the chargeable sledge or Voltaic Charge 'parry', but that combo is pretty good. His fundamental problem of not being able to get in and weak offense for a grappler still exist but I think he might make it to B Tier for real this time. Makoto is probably weaker than he is, at least, and she doesn't even look that bad.

/me scrub butts into balance discussion about tiers

I've heard about the Tager buffs, and bad memories from CT make me shudder.

One thing I've noticed in playing Jin is that it's notoriously difficult to regain pressure once you've lost it. I know a good Jin will never really lose an advantageous point once its gained, but give me a break, I've never actually played a human opponent. For example I set the AI to "Very Hard" (on CT), went for a round in Score Attack. Got past Bang, but Taokaka raped me aerially. I honestly had no idea what was going on and just had to keep spamming A-Blizzard and Rehyou to even get damage in.

I've never played CT (good thing too, game is broke) but there's definitely ways to get back in. It sounds like you have separate problems here, really. If you mean that you hit the guy and then he just blocks everything until you can't attack anymore because you're out of attacks or cause you're too far away, Jin has a few tools to handle that.

One is jump cancelling one of your normals (Jin has a lot of jump cancellable normals). Like, do 5C and then jump forward immediately and then do an aerial normal like j.B. By doing this, you get to reset the distance and also reset your attacks (cause you can start from 5A when you land). Of course, there's a counter to this, which is that the opponent can anti-air you when you try to jump back on him again if he's looking for it.

The other is doing 6B or 2D. 6B is +3 on block and resets distance. After you do 6B, you can do 2A and your opponent will get counter hit if he tries to attack ('frametrapped'), unless he does an invincible DP like Inferno Divider. You recover 3 frames earlier than he does, so if both of you do 2A at the earliest possible time, you're going to get yours out first. So he basically has to block and let you continue attacking him. Again, there's a counter to this too. 6B has a very long startup so they can just hit you out of it with 5A if they're looking for it. 2D is also plus on block but it won't reset distance as much so your options are more limited.

As for your other problem, it sounds like you can't anti-air Tao. 623A is fine as an anti-air, that's what it's for. Or you can jump and beat her out with j.C. Ultimately, you have to get her blocking and then hit her somehow, whether it's with 6A or a throw. Keep in mind that the computer cheats by reading your inputs.

Put it this way; I used to play SSBM. What's the best advice for changing from that to BB? I already know a lot of Jin combos, and I've done a fair share of improvising, but I still need to improve my cross-up/mix-up game. Also I'm playing in CT, not CS because I lack a PS3, and CS2 Portable isn't out yet.

There's probably no single piece of advice cause the games are pretty different. Jin is a character that won't require you to make much adjustments, though. Just remember you have an overhead and cross-ups in BB which you don't have in Smash. Also, blockstrings can be very long. And use your meter, even if it's just in combos.

Just to supplement R.I.L.'s explanation.

This is where noobness goes maximum.
As far as I understand, to be "safe on block" means that if the opponent blocks something, you aren't going to get counter-combo-raped.

"Safe on block" actually can mean two things, one of which is that the attack can't be punished, and the other that the attack is actually plus. To use R.I.L.'s earlier example about Hell's Fang; HF is actually safe on normal block (but not on IB). It's -4 and the fastest move in the entire game (a lot of character's 5A) is 5 frames. So in that sense it is safe cause you aren't getting hit yet, you're just forced to block (or DP). The other meaning be something like Jin's 2D which is like +3. It's safe to continue hitting buttons after it cause your opponent won't be able to hit you (unless they DP).

A blockstring I assume is when the opponent blocks a whole bunch of your shit?

There's no point in just doing attacks and letting your opponent block everything. The aim of a blockstring is to land a hit on your opponent. I mean, you could do a blockstring like 2AAAAAA and that is technically a blockstring but your opponent is not going to get hit by that (well, he could but that is another scenario that I won't explain now).

So how do you land a hit on your opponent in a blockstring? There's two main ways to do that:

1) Hit him with a overhead (or a low if he likes to block high). The reason you do a blockstring into an overhead is so that you can alter where you do your overhead. If as Ragna you always do 5B 5C 214B your opponent is going to figure out what's going on, but it's harder to block if you just do 5B 214B sometimes or such.
2) Throw. You can just do a throw on his wake-up or do a tick throw like 2A then throw. As Ragna, Dead Spike is + on block so if you're too far away to throw you can do like 5C 214D dash throw or dash 2A throw. Again, it's to make your mix-up unpredictable.

Since you're playing CT you can also guard crush the guy. Dead Spike is helpful for that as well.

Keep in mind that the closer you are to your opponent, the more options you have (throw, lower-range normals like Ragna's 2B or 6B),and the harder it is to defend against you. This sounds simple but many beginners don't realize it.

So for mix-ups, rather than go straight from 5A>5B>5C, you're suggesting I try something such as 5A>2A>5B>6B>5C>combo? "mixup" thus I assume means "don't follow through on a combo".

What you say is somewhat right, but it's a lot more complicated than than. I'll explain it. For example, let's say as Ragna you're a fair distance away from your opponent. You dash in and do 5B. There's no way you can wait to see if 5B hits, then hitconfirm into 5C -> Hell's Fang, because humans don't react that fast. If you want to do mix-up from 5B, then it's true that you can't follow through to the combo. However, you can just press 5B 5C first. That's enough time to see if you hit the guy. If you did you can go into HF. If you didn't you still have a basic high/low mix-up available because you can do 214B or 2D. Alternatively you can go into Dead Spike and reset distance and open up more options like I said earlier (provided you aren't hit out of DS's long startup).

Right now, all I've been doing is playing in Training mode and learning huge combos (eg 5B > 6A > 5C > 5D (1hit) > 214B > 214D > 5B > jc > JC > JD > jc > JD > 623 D + followup). You're basically suggesting get used to bashing out those combos with expert timing, but also vary the openings?