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General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Matthew
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Im wondering if anyone here has any experience with Xatu in this metagame. Looking at it on paper, it looks like it might fit my team quite well. Although I am unsure about it because it fails to stop common stealth rock pokemon (Tyranitar for example), which is not something I want to deal with. Is it advisable to use a rapid spinner and Xatu on the same team. Not to mention it is complete pursuit fodder. Unfortunanly there are few RMTs with Xatu for me to lurk for the answer.
Specs Kyurem is amazing! Especially when pared with Magnezone and another dragon. Nothing in the top 30 can face this beast. Look what happens to his best checks/counters:
Scizor gets 2hkoed by Focus Blast or Modest Draco Meteor, and if he tries to kill you with Bullet Punch then let him, and then trap him with Magnezone!
Ferrothorn gets 2hkoed by Ice Beam and has more than 50% chance of getting ohkoed from Modest FB. So he simply cannot switch in.
Jirachi can take everything, but he is so predictable that most of the times, Magnezone will be able to trap kill him. So if the opponent wants to prevent Kyurem from destroying his team, he must bring Jirachi in and risk getting trapped by Zone. Pretty tough choice to make, esepecially when you are facing a monster with 130 special attack , right?
What about Heatran? Offensive Heatran is always OHKOed by Focus Blast and Specially Defensive always OHKOed after SR (the speedy version). It's not like he can do anything back anyways, with Lava Plume dealing a pitiful 30.17 - 35.29%.
Every Tyranitar gets OHKOed from Focus Blast 100% of the time with a Modest nature so he can't do shit to you.... Ah and btw Scarf Ttar does 93.6 - 110.48% with Stone Edge, meaning that you even have a chance of OHKOing him before dying, winning the weather war!
So this means that Kyurem and Magnezone are pretty much guaranteed to remove opposing steels, quite easily, letting another dragon to sweep.
Another huge plus, is how well Kyurem handles Volt-Turn teams, in combination with Magnezone of 'course. He takes everything from Rotom-W like a boss, and then kills Landorus with Ice Beam while losing 59.33 - 70.07% from a SE (outside of SS), which is never a 2hko even after Volt-Switch, and either does 75.21 - 88.62% to Scizor if Scizor decides to go for the U-turn, or simply lets Scizor go for the kill and then you trap with Magnezone, killing back 2 pokes in return most of the time!
Finally, Kyurem is excellent as a lead since it completely dominates the most common leads.
Let's take a look at the top 10 leads(assuming Modest Specs Kyurem):
1.Politoed : 252 HP Toed is OHKOed by DM almost always (97.65 - 115.1%)
2.Rotom-W : Can't do anything, while you simply destroy whatever comes in
3.Tyranitar : OHKOed by Focus Blast, no matter the variant
4.Scizor : Loses 75.21 - 88.62% of its health if it goes for the U-turn, or dies from Magnezone if it goes for the BP
5.Ninetales : OHKOed by DM, except from the Specially Defensive variant, which is 2hkoed easily by 2 Dragon Pulse
6.Landorus : Only the Band variant has a small chance to OHKO you with SE (89 - 104.85%), and you OHKO him, or simply nuke the switch-in if it uses U-turn
7.Heatran : OHKOed by Focus Blast, except from Specially Defensive which rarely leads, and is easily 2hkoed while doing ~32% back with Lava Plume
8.Ferrothorn : OHKOed by Focus Blast most of the times (93.18 - 110.22%), and 2HKOed easily by Ice Beam if you don't want to risk the accuracy
9.Jirachi : Switch to Magnezone, or destroy something, if you believe that the opponent will predict you bringing in Zone
10.Dragonite : OHKOed through MS with Ice Beam
As you see i wasn't lying. Kyurem stops these pussy Volt-Turn teams before they even get started!
Finally Kyurem is very different from Latios as a special attacking dragon for 2 reasons:
Every single move from Specs Kyurem is brutaly powerful! Almost no offensive pokes can set-up on Kyurem, unless it is immune or 4x resistant to Ice or Fighting. This means that no matter what comes in, you will be doing 40% damage even to most resistors, especially against offensive teams.
Kyurem has much better bulk and eats Tyranitar for breakfast, without also worrying about Scizor Pursuiting his ass! This means that Kyurem is a perfect pokemon to run on any team that wants Tyranitar gone, or any weather inducer in general, as Kyurem manhandles them all, unlike Latios, which just screams Tyranitar kill me i am going for the DM!!!
Anyway sorry for the big rant, but Kyurem is amazing, and so many teams are underprepared for it...
Scizor gets 2hkoed by Focus Blast or Modest Draco Meteor, and if he tries to kill you with Bullet Punch then let him, and then trap him with Magnezone!
Ferrothorn gets 2hkoed by Ice Beam and has more than 50% chance of getting ohkoed from Modest FB. So he simply cannot switch in.
Jirachi can take everything, but he is so predictable that most of the times, Magnezone will be able to trap kill him. So if the opponent wants to prevent Kyurem from destroying his team, he must bring Jirachi in and risk getting trapped by Zone. Pretty tough choice to make, esepecially when you are facing a monster with 130 special attack , right?
What about Heatran? Offensive Heatran is always OHKOed by Focus Blast and Specially Defensive always OHKOed after SR (the speedy version). It's not like he can do anything back anyways, with Lava Plume dealing a pitiful 30.17 - 35.29%.
Every Tyranitar gets OHKOed from Focus Blast 100% of the time with a Modest nature so he can't do shit to you.... Ah and btw Scarf Ttar does 93.6 - 110.48% with Stone Edge, meaning that you even have a chance of OHKOing him before dying, winning the weather war!
So this means that Kyurem and Magnezone are pretty much guaranteed to remove opposing steels, quite easily, letting another dragon to sweep.
Another huge plus, is how well Kyurem handles Volt-Turn teams, in combination with Magnezone of 'course. He takes everything from Rotom-W like a boss, and then kills Landorus with Ice Beam while losing 59.33 - 70.07% from a SE (outside of SS), which is never a 2hko even after Volt-Switch, and either does 75.21 - 88.62% to Scizor if Scizor decides to go for the U-turn, or simply lets Scizor go for the kill and then you trap with Magnezone, killing back 2 pokes in return most of the time!
Finally, Kyurem is excellent as a lead since it completely dominates the most common leads.
Let's take a look at the top 10 leads(assuming Modest Specs Kyurem):
1.Politoed : 252 HP Toed is OHKOed by DM almost always (97.65 - 115.1%)
2.Rotom-W : Can't do anything, while you simply destroy whatever comes in
3.Tyranitar : OHKOed by Focus Blast, no matter the variant
4.Scizor : Loses 75.21 - 88.62% of its health if it goes for the U-turn, or dies from Magnezone if it goes for the BP
5.Ninetales : OHKOed by DM, except from the Specially Defensive variant, which is 2hkoed easily by 2 Dragon Pulse
6.Landorus : Only the Band variant has a small chance to OHKO you with SE (89 - 104.85%), and you OHKO him, or simply nuke the switch-in if it uses U-turn
7.Heatran : OHKOed by Focus Blast, except from Specially Defensive which rarely leads, and is easily 2hkoed while doing ~32% back with Lava Plume
8.Ferrothorn : OHKOed by Focus Blast most of the times (93.18 - 110.22%), and 2HKOed easily by Ice Beam if you don't want to risk the accuracy
9.Jirachi : Switch to Magnezone, or destroy something, if you believe that the opponent will predict you bringing in Zone
10.Dragonite : OHKOed through MS with Ice Beam
As you see i wasn't lying. Kyurem stops these pussy Volt-Turn teams before they even get started!
Finally Kyurem is very different from Latios as a special attacking dragon for 2 reasons:
Every single move from Specs Kyurem is brutaly powerful! Almost no offensive pokes can set-up on Kyurem, unless it is immune or 4x resistant to Ice or Fighting. This means that no matter what comes in, you will be doing 40% damage even to most resistors, especially against offensive teams.
Kyurem has much better bulk and eats Tyranitar for breakfast, without also worrying about Scizor Pursuiting his ass! This means that Kyurem is a perfect pokemon to run on any team that wants Tyranitar gone, or any weather inducer in general, as Kyurem manhandles them all, unlike Latios, which just screams Tyranitar kill me i am going for the DM!!!
Anyway sorry for the big rant, but Kyurem is amazing, and so many teams are underprepared for it...
Unfortunately for kyurem, specs Hydreigon does a better job, it nets the same ko's except it isn't weak to stealth rock, gets a handy ground immunity and isn't weak to bullet punch the most common priority in OU, oh and it also gets u-turn. Speaking of specs Hydreigon it is an absolute monster, focus blast straight up 2hkos blissey.
Kyurem breaks better Volt-Turn teams though... If you bring Kyurem in when Rotom-W uses Volt Switch, then Kyurem owns Landorus, because it can take 1 Stone Edge and ko, while Hydreigon is weak to U-turn, so Landorus is going to U-turn out before you get a chance to kill him...
Also another nice thing about Kyurem is that it requires much less prediction than Hydreigon. If you predict any steel switching in, use Focus Blast and Dragon/Pulse for anything else. Kyurem's last move hits many pokes for super effective pokes and ohkoes them, while Hydreigon can't, like Celebi, Hippowdon, Specially defensive Dragonite with MS active and Virizion. Finally Kyurem can kill some steels without resorting to unstabbed moves like Ferrothorn and Skarmory, and generally pack huge power in almost all it's moves, which makes it less easier to set-up than Hydreigon. For example many pokes can set-up on a choiced Fire move from Hydreigon, like: CM Lati@s, Terakion, Dragonite, Heatran, Gyarados, Haxorus, Infernape, CM Reuniclus and Salamence and another handful of pokes in rain like CM Jirachi, CM Virizion, QD Volcarona, CM Espeon and Bulk Up Conk.
In the other hand the pokes that can set-up on Specs Kyurem's Ice Beam are : Specially Defensive Scizor, CM Jirachi, Volcarona, Heatran and Cloyster.
Finally Kyurem is much better at tanking water hits, especially those boosted by Drizzle, where Hydreigon loses a ton of it's HP if it comes in on Hydro Pump from Starmie, Rotom-W or Politoed. Ah and Kyurem completely counters Starmie, while Hydreigon is revenge killed from it and cannot switch-in.
Kyurem definitely has some serious competition with Hydreigon outside of Hail, but still has its merits, like having a useful secondary STAB, being more bulky if you mange to keep SR off the field, countering Starmie and not being weak to U-turn.
What I kind of like right now is the huge amount of Volt-Turn that I'm seeing on the RMT forums (my own included). I've always been a stallish type of person but Volt-Turn's tactic of keeping pressure on the opponent by scouting and switching while dealing damage is the best way I can play offense so far.
The large amount of Pokemon who can utilize the two moves makes it easy for one to make their own, unique teams (except that Scizor's on just about all of them). Sc-Rotom cores are popular but not the only option.
I'm seeing a lot of teams as well that carry Ground types to make Volt-Turn riskier, especially since Dugtrio has risen to trap them, or some carry U-Turn themselves to get the full advantage.
The large amount of Pokemon who can utilize the two moves makes it easy for one to make their own, unique teams (except that Scizor's on just about all of them). Sc-Rotom cores are popular but not the only option.
I'm seeing a lot of teams as well that carry Ground types to make Volt-Turn riskier, especially since Dugtrio has risen to trap them, or some carry U-Turn themselves to get the full advantage.
Is volt turn considered offense? If it is, I don't think it should be. Think about it, what is going on, 2 pokemon are slowly wearing your team's health down to nothing / or low enough to sweep you. That doesn't sound like offense to be with huge tyrants smashing through walls, no that sounds like stall. I hate it when volt-turn teams bitch about my stall team when in effect they are doing the same thing I am doing to them. What is the reason people keep on calling it "offense?" It can't be just because u-turn and volt switch are attack moves.
this meta has gotten really stale, really fast for me. Every team is either Rain or VolTurn, and literally about 60% of teams run at least 5 of the top 6 pokemon in 1337 statistics. VolTurn is getting so absurd, I am now declaring my official purpose in life to be finding sets that can counter it. Stay tuned for updates
Tinkerbell does a damn good job, as does Tangrowth.
The problem with Celebi is that, while it can wall the Scrotom combo, when Landorus comes into the mix (see: very often), it is unable to stop the chain. Tangrowth is very good though!
I run bell, but that's really untrue. HP fire does not OHKO scizor, Landorus KOes with U-turn, Terrakion and Tyranitar crush it, Dragonite laughs at everything behind a sub, and even Rotom can trick a scarf. It's certainly not bad, but i want harder counters.
Tangrowth sounds good, I'mma try to optimize that.
240 SpA Hidden Power Fire from Modest Celebi with Leftovers vs 248 HP Scizor: 97.96%-115.45% (87.5% of OHKO). Life Orb always OHKOs. Have fun.
Terrakion, Dragonite, and Tyranitar =/= VoltTurn ergo irrelevant. Terrakion doesn't like switching in of Leaf Storm anyway.
Speaking of which, Landorus has a chance of being OHKOd when switching into Leaf Storm from the above Celebi after Stealth Rock so that doesn't do too well either. Furthermore, Landorus U-Turn does 88.22 max to Celebi who can use Recover on the same turn if previously at max health or alternatively target the switch in.
Rotom-W is obviously OHKOed, Trick being the worst it can do to Celebi.
Every team should have a Dragonite check anyway, but it usually won't be switching into Celebi in the early game where VoltTurn is most commonly abused, also fearing Thunder Wave from Celebi.
Terrakion, Dragonite, and Tyranitar =/= VoltTurn ergo irrelevant. Terrakion doesn't like switching in of Leaf Storm anyway.
Speaking of which, Landorus has a chance of being OHKOd when switching into Leaf Storm from the above Celebi after Stealth Rock so that doesn't do too well either. Furthermore, Landorus U-Turn does 88.22 max to Celebi who can use Recover on the same turn if previously at max health or alternatively target the switch in.
Rotom-W is obviously OHKOed, Trick being the worst it can do to Celebi.
Every team should have a Dragonite check anyway, but it usually won't be switching into Celebi in the early game where VoltTurn is most commonly abused, also fearing Thunder Wave from Celebi.
The second Rotom-W uses hydropump, I use a recovery move.
Provided it gets safely in on something not named Rotom, SubDD Gyara can easily go for a sweep, especially with Rocks on the opponent's field. Why? Rain boosted Waterfalls coming from Adamant base 125 Attack at +2 is not fun.
Cleanly OHKO's Rotom-W after SR (assuming no defensive invesment, but seeing Rotom will most likely have switched several times, this shouldn't be a problem regardless). Scizor obviously dies.
Thoughts?
Cleanly OHKO's Rotom-W after SR (assuming no defensive invesment, but seeing Rotom will most likely have switched several times, this shouldn't be a problem regardless). Scizor obviously dies.
Thoughts?
Seconding his awesomeness. Once it gets a sub up, almost nothing can stop him, not even standard Volt Turn Rotom. They come in, break your sub, you make another one, and then set up on the switch in and sweep. The only problems are phazers (curse you Skarm!) and those stupid Perish Song Politoeds!
The point is that when you face Rotom-W, Scizor and Landorus, Celebi won't get a chance to harm Landorus. Celebi comes into Rotom's Volt Switch, and is forced out by Landorus. Of 'course you can break the chain by outpredicting, or sacrificing, or by setting up hazards, but the point is that under normal conditions, Celebi can't stop the Volt-Turn trio...
The point is that the VoltTurn trio cant kill Celebi if it switches out of Landorus while cleanly OHKOing two memebers and having a chance of OHKOing the third with a Leaf Storm, albeit the third being the one it can never outspeed. There is also the very viable scenario of Rotom-W using Hydro Pump, which Celebi also tanks with ease which opens it up to a free turn in which none of the VoltTurn trio can switch in.
tl;dr, Celebi neuters Rotom-W, which leaves an extremely predictable set of moves to follow (Lando, u-Turn), which leave little mark overall (particularly if paired with Skarmory). By being able to consistently switch in on one member of the trio and threatening OHKOs on all three I'd say that Celebi effectively counters VoltTurn.
Even if you are consistently following the pattern: Switch into Rotom-W Volt Switch, in comes Landorus, switch out on U-Turn, that combination is not doing the job they were created to do, which is to wear down the opposing team through switches and momentum regaining.
I'd call that a pretty damn good counter to a strategy no less even if it isn't a perfect solution necessarily.
tl;dr, Celebi neuters Rotom-W, which leaves an extremely predictable set of moves to follow (Lando, u-Turn), which leave little mark overall (particularly if paired with Skarmory). By being able to consistently switch in on one member of the trio and threatening OHKOs on all three I'd say that Celebi effectively counters VoltTurn.
Even if you are consistently following the pattern: Switch into Rotom-W Volt Switch, in comes Landorus, switch out on U-Turn, that combination is not doing the job they were created to do, which is to wear down the opposing team through switches and momentum regaining.
I'd call that a pretty damn good counter to a strategy no less even if it isn't a perfect solution necessarily.
Of 'course you can beat the core with prediction, but the point is that most of the times you are forced into a corner and must take the risky decision since a misprediction will cost more to you that to the opponent.
For example let's say you have a Heatran out and i have a Rotom-W out. You can either predict the Volt switch and stay in to hit whatever comes in or switch out to Celebi to take the Hydro Pump. So at best you get to hit your opponent's switch-in for some damage or you get an advantageous match-up of Rotom-W vs Celebi. But if you misspredict, then your opponenet has either killed your Heatran or brought out something that can kill Celebi (Landorus, Scarftar you name it).
So it is clear that the player facing the Volt-turn chain must make riskier predictions to gain the momentum of the match, than the Volt-Turn user. This is why also many players despise this strategy calling it mindless.
So Celebi definitely can break the chain, but cannot come in while the chain is started without making risky predictions.
So what we want is a poke that is able to successfully break the chain without forcing the user to make risky predictions. For example Tangrowth can come in on Rotom's VS and ko both Scizor and Landorus. So the opponent is forced to bring out another member to take on Tangrowth, meaning that you successfully broke the chain.
EDIT: This is @ Pwnemon
Then you must have a shit team *shrugs*
Just about every game I play, Rotom-W leads, I switch to Celebi who Switches to Scizor who gets destroyed by a HP Fire. VoltTurn defeated.
I'm also curious as to why to consider Celebi to be used solely for the purpose of beating VoltTurn. You say that it constantly switches in and then switches out. But what about the other Pokemon Celebi can face that it can Recover on? What about those not uncommon occasions where Rotom Hydro Pumps?
I honestly don't understand what game your playing if a well positioned Tinkerbell can't beat VoltTurn. Hell it was the first Pokemon I put into my team specifically for countering ScizorWash. And you try to tell me that it doesnt work because "Rotom can VSwitch to Landorus over and over hurr durr". Even if that were a valid gameplay occurance any Ground-type Pokemon puts an instant stop to that combo, with Rotom-W and Scizor still being stopped by Celebi
and @alexwolf
Then you must have a shit team *shrugs*
Just about every game I play, Rotom-W leads, I switch to Celebi who Switches to Scizor who gets destroyed by a HP Fire. VoltTurn defeated.
I'm also curious as to why to consider Celebi to be used solely for the purpose of beating VoltTurn. You say that it constantly switches in and then switches out. But what about the other Pokemon Celebi can face that it can Recover on? What about those not uncommon occasions where Rotom Hydro Pumps?
I honestly don't understand what game your playing if a well positioned Tinkerbell can't beat VoltTurn. Hell it was the first Pokemon I put into my team specifically for countering ScizorWash. And you try to tell me that it doesnt work because "Rotom can VSwitch to Landorus over and over hurr durr". Even if that were a valid gameplay occurance any Ground-type Pokemon puts an instant stop to that combo, with Rotom-W and Scizor still being stopped by Celebi
and @alexwolf
IMO the best way to deal with volt turn is to have a ground type on your team. Since most rotom-w are choiced, you can switch in something like landorus on a predicted volt turn. Then if you see leftovers, U-turn out to weaken the rotom-w. If it uses hydro pump, at least you can switch something in. It's risky, but its always a good thing to have on your team, since with good prediction, will put a stop to volt turn.
Another good counter I can think of would be Gastrobold:
Gastrobro @ Leftovers
Bold
Storm Drain
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Recover
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Toxic
Come in on Rotom, laugh as he cannot do jack. Scald the Switch-in. Gastro has the tools necessary to take basically your average VolTurn team right here - tyranitar, scizor, landorus, Rotom, Dragonite, terrakion. Everything but Celebi. Can someone run calcs to see if I'm not overestimating Gastro's bulk? (Esp. for Terrakion and Scizor.)
Edit: this is @ Texas.
Maybe you should have stated in your first post that large quantities of players are retarded and do not expect the obvious HP fire. Maybe you should have states in your first post that you have a ground type to make Rotom think twice before volt switching. But all you said was quote "Even if you are consistently following the pattern: Switch into Rotom-W Volt Switch, in comes Landorus, switch out on U-Turn, that combination is not doing the job they were created to do, which is to wear down the opposing team through switches and momentum regaining."
Even if you have a ground type, however, I find it rather difficult to believe yours makes predictions with Rotom any easier than the ground type I run does. If I'm wrong and just playing Celebi stupid, I apologize. But in my personal experience, Landorus makes Bii almost completely ineffective at VolTurn crushing.
Gastrobro @ Leftovers
Bold
Storm Drain
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Recover
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Toxic
Come in on Rotom, laugh as he cannot do jack. Scald the Switch-in. Gastro has the tools necessary to take basically your average VolTurn team right here - tyranitar, scizor, landorus, Rotom, Dragonite, terrakion. Everything but Celebi. Can someone run calcs to see if I'm not overestimating Gastro's bulk? (Esp. for Terrakion and Scizor.)
Edit: this is @ Texas.
Maybe you should have stated in your first post that large quantities of players are retarded and do not expect the obvious HP fire. Maybe you should have states in your first post that you have a ground type to make Rotom think twice before volt switching. But all you said was quote "Even if you are consistently following the pattern: Switch into Rotom-W Volt Switch, in comes Landorus, switch out on U-Turn, that combination is not doing the job they were created to do, which is to wear down the opposing team through switches and momentum regaining."
Even if you have a ground type, however, I find it rather difficult to believe yours makes predictions with Rotom any easier than the ground type I run does. If I'm wrong and just playing Celebi stupid, I apologize. But in my personal experience, Landorus makes Bii almost completely ineffective at VolTurn crushing.
True, but again, you have to make risky predictions, not your opponent, since even if you block their Volt-Switch, they just got into a disadvantageous match-up, while if you mispredict you get killed. This is what makes those teams so hard to face.
Another poke that could work, would be a defensive Roserade with HP Ice and Sleep Powder. Come in on Rotom-W and then survive whatever Landorus does to you, provided sandstorm isn't up, and ko with HP Ice, or tank the BP from Scizor and put him to sleep.
Pls next time quote me, since this method is a little bit tiring to follow. Also calm down no need to get mad.
What i don't get is how will your Celebi switch-into an advantageous match-up without you making risky predictions... One way is to lead with Celebi against their Rotom-W, fair enough. But this is one time you blocked the chain and works only once. How are you going to stop it the second time? Celebi cannot switch-into an advantageous match-up, since the opponent will be Volt-turning, and if you want to break the chain you have to make risky predictions, where the opponent does not.
So to cleat this up. If the Volt-Turn chain gets started before Celebi gets in, then Celebi cannot stop it without risky predictions, since it is going to be forced out by Landorus every time it comes in ok?
Firstly lets make the assumption that this team is indeed running Landorus, since standard VoltTurn only requires Scizor and Wash, with Landorus being more likely to be present if on a Sand team.
Once more, Celebi can switch into and beat Rotom-W everytime without fail. In order for Rotom-W to not become fodder it must Volt Switch every time, presumably to Landorus. Landorus forces Celebi out, but cannot do anything to, for example, Skarmory, which requires Landorus to consistently U-Turn, else it becomes set up fodder for Skarmory.
The player with Celebi clearly has two Pokemon that will repeatedly beat the ScizorWash supported by Landorus combo, hence, switches can be repeatedly made at no risk to the player. Now, if I am a halfway competent player, I will not spend 16 consecutive turns using either Volt Switch or U-Turn. At some point, the opposing player will overpredict, switch to a different Pokemon, etc. Ergo, Celebi, beating Scizor and Rot-W, combined with Skarmory, which beats the occasional associate Landorus, defeat VoltTurn.
Frankly I don't understand why the assumption is being made that Landorus always accompanies Scizor and Rotom-W when that is far from the case but for the purposes of the argument, you added one Pokemon that beats Celebi, I countered by adding a second standard Pokemon that beats Landorus making the initial point remain valid.
I won't continue further on this topic since I've stated and restated my arguments several times against repetitive attempts to undermine my claim.
Have a nice day, and happy ScizorWash destroying for those inspired to use Celebi.
EDIT: Actually, one final point.
Hardly an obvious move choice given that in that same slot, both Earth Power and Psychic are also slashed, not to mention that HP Fire, along with Thunder Wave, are the most likely slots to be replaced with an AC/OO move option. The sheer fact that the two main options are walled by Heatran and that a coverage move against Heatran is slashed makes it utterly foolish to naively expect HP Fire on Tinkerbell.Pwnemon said:
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