Alexwolf, how is switching into a counter a risky prediction at all... Because they can switch (volt turn), so they have the momentum, so what? I just switch into a landorus/scizor counter for me that is Skarmory. I can keep this up all day if I want to. No problem. Literally the only trick is keeping rocks off the field and on theirs, if you do that, the game is yours. No risk at all, just playing the game right.
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General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Matthew
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Actually Roserade sounds incredibly interesting. A set of
Roserade @ lefties
Bold
Natural Cure
Help I'm bad at ev spreads but something phys defensive
-HP fire
-Leaf Storm
-Rest
-Sleep Powder
Seems like the optimal choice here. HP fire is, obviously, for scizor, who cannot KO no matter what he uses. Sleep Powder is your choice for Landorus, which incapacitates him and gives you time to rest up and get outta there. Leaf Storm is for Terrakion and Rotom, though be wary of using it before Scizor is disposed of. This set almost takes advantage of VolTurn and its switch forcing nature by firing off nukes and needing to switch, even, in order to heal. It also seems useful against Rain teams, soaking up Tentaspikes, nuking with grass moves and resisting Water like a bro.
Edit @texas, I assume Landorus usually accompany ScRotom because they usually do, but as it's clear you cannot be argued with, I am dropping the subject and will move on.
Roserade @ lefties
Bold
Natural Cure
Help I'm bad at ev spreads but something phys defensive
-HP fire
-Leaf Storm
-Rest
-Sleep Powder
Seems like the optimal choice here. HP fire is, obviously, for scizor, who cannot KO no matter what he uses. Sleep Powder is your choice for Landorus, which incapacitates him and gives you time to rest up and get outta there. Leaf Storm is for Terrakion and Rotom, though be wary of using it before Scizor is disposed of. This set almost takes advantage of VolTurn and its switch forcing nature by firing off nukes and needing to switch, even, in order to heal. It also seems useful against Rain teams, soaking up Tentaspikes, nuking with grass moves and resisting Water like a bro.
Edit @texas, I assume Landorus usually accompany ScRotom because they usually do, but as it's clear you cannot be argued with, I am dropping the subject and will move on.
This is my final say on the matter, because we have started flooding this thread. The concept behind the triple Volt-Turn combo is that you can constantly force your opponent out, since whatever counters the pokemon that is in, is koed by the other 2.
So this means that from the moment that your opponent manages to use U-Turn/Volt Switch while you switch out, you will constantly be forced out, unless you take risky predictions or carry some pokes that beat the strategy.
For example let's say you have Tyranitar in and i have Scizor, and Scizor is faster. You switch out bringing Skarmory, or whatever physical wall, while i go to Rotom-W. Now unless you have something that cannot be ohkoed by Landorus,Scizor and Rotom-W, i have the upper hand of the match. Why? Because if we both predict right, then i have very greater pay off for doing so, while if you misspredict you have much greater consequences to suffer. Every poke you will bring in, will be forced out by another one in my Vol-turn chain (as we assumed you have no poke that cannot be ohkoed by any of those 3 pokes), or will risk getting ohkoed.
And Celebi fits into the category of pokes that get ohkoed by the Volt-Turn trio. That's why it can't reliably beat it, once it gets started. Because the Volt-Turn user will have the momentum, and you will be on the defnsive, unless you make risky predictions or have something that cannot be ohkoed from any of those 3, or even have Protect to scout Choiced moves.
If you still don't get what i mean, then let's just end this and admit that we both cannot understand each other, or one of us cannot understand the other, since we have been going around circles in the last posts.
Switching into a counter is not risky, but your opponent will be bringing in something that can ohko you, because they used U-Turn/Volt Switch. If you constantly go to your counters, while i force them out, then the one winning will be me since i do damage while you don't.
Of 'course if hazards are on the field then the scenario will be different.
I wouldn't even bother with the physical defense on Roserade, she has almost Butterfree defenses, which compounded by the fact she won't have enough EV's to kill/outspeed some targets.
On my team this is the Roserade I use to take out Volt-Turn chains (thanks to legendary_07 for the EV spread)
Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 152 HP / 68 SAtk / 252 SDef / 36 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Rest
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spikes / Sludge Bomb
68 SAtk EV's allow you to OHKO CB Scizor after one Stealth Rock switch in. While the lack of Leaf Storm may be unappealing, losing your special attack right when a Scizor switches in on a 4x resisted hit is a bad situation. 36 Spd EV's allows you to outspeed Defensive Rotom-W by one point, while Black Sludge dissuades the trick (especially against opposing Sand Teams). The rest is pumped into attaining special bulk. Now, Toxic Spikes is what I run on my team, but it certainly not the best choice when facing Volt Turn (many immune members). Here is where the option for the second spot comes into play. Spikes will help with beating Volt Turn in the long run, due to all of its switches. However, Sludge Bomb is a very viable option as well, being able to hit Celebi for quite a big chunk of damage, while hitting Landorus harder than Giga Drain.
*warning* Don't put this in front of a Heatran.
Unless you are running spikes/toxic spikes or need a toxic spikes absorber for your team there is literally no reason you should be running roserade>celebi
roserade has 60/55/105 defences
celebi has 100/100/100 defences
Sure roserade doesnt have a 4x weaknessd to uturn but landorus is ohkoing roserade anyway with eq
if you run the most defenses possible, max damage Volt Switch + Max damage Sand Force boosted EQ doesn't OHKO, incl sand, then you Sleep powder, Rest, and switch out on the plus.
Roserade is good, but attempting to use one as a voltturn check is just stupid seeing as celebi does a better job
While Celebi is overall bulkier than Roserade, Roserade has its niche and can be used even to stop volt-turn. Assuming a neutral nature max HP and 224 Def EVs it takes 57,41% - 67,9% from a scarf Landorus EQ (this assumes rain ofc) while u-turn can't do more than 30%. This means that if you come on Rotom's volt switch you can stay in on Landorus (unlike Celebi, that takes a huge damage from u-turn), get a free sleep with sleep powder and then set up toxic spikes.
The same set takes 58,33% - 68,83% from Scizor's CB BP, meaning that you still get at least 2 free turns if you sleep powder it on the switch.
Timid and 32 Spe EVs make you faster than max Spe TTar and slower variants of Rotom. If you don't care about outspeeding these threats, then you migh as well run bold and max Def.
Of course, if you're not using sleep powder and toxic spikes, that are what sets Rose apart from Celebi and Ferrothorn, then, given their better overall bulk, you migh as well use one of the afore mentioned grass types.
The same set takes 58,33% - 68,83% from Scizor's CB BP, meaning that you still get at least 2 free turns if you sleep powder it on the switch.
Timid and 32 Spe EVs make you faster than max Spe TTar and slower variants of Rotom. If you don't care about outspeeding these threats, then you migh as well run bold and max Def.
Of course, if you're not using sleep powder and toxic spikes, that are what sets Rose apart from Celebi and Ferrothorn, then, given their better overall bulk, you migh as well use one of the afore mentioned grass types.
If it has smack down it obviously is neither scarfed, nor (most likely) carries uturn...
Why not? I've saw this Landorus with EQ / Smack Down / HP Ice / U-turn and carrying a expert belt many times.
Agreed. Keeping stealth rock off the field against a volt turn user makes the game much easier to play. Stealth rock is the winning move here to be honest. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done as all of the spinners are done away with by the appropriate volt turn member, and the volt turn user will set up stealth rock if you can't ohko Tyranitar. Running a specs toed and your opponent knows it? No problem. Tyranitar can take a specs hydro pump/specs focus blast and set up stealth rock. It doesn't help either that rapid spin is a terrible move, but it helps on the long run.
I'm gonna have to echo this. I'm not sure who started it but it's annoying as all fuck. It's also a reason why I constantly say this: assuming that your opponent is holding a choice item just because you don't see any leftovers/life orb is a way to lose the game.
In any case, while the common volt turn members all have counters, don't be too concerned with using them. Volt turn is a play style that doesn't have any direct answers because it's all about keeping the momentum. You beat volt turn by making sure that they don't constantly maintain this momentum, and you do that by outplaying your opponent. This includes out predicting them and by, most importantly, keeping hazards off your side of the field. Trying to insure yourself by finding counters is only going to enrage you. I have lost my celebi to a scarf scizor on multiple occasions. My bronzong and my skarmory have switched into a landorus smack down several times. I have personally substituted hp ice for hp fire on my sun team in order to lure in skarmory against my landorus(gliscor doesn't bother me) multiple times. My bulk up breloom has been ohko'd by scizor aerial ace...
Instead of looking for counters to a four Pokemon shell, prioritize countering terrakion. I'm getting awfully sick and tired of not being able to switch anything into him except for golurk, and having to carry a scizor on every team just out of fear that I can't check him if my opponent managed to keep hazards down.
As far as roserade goes when it comes to volt turn, I used to use it on my sun team with weatherball and it worked well. Roserade got the boot for shifters once I realized that celebi had been added into the picture, and roserade is never doing anything about that pokemon.
i'm going to have to say yet again that alphatron is my favorite user for being the only other person in this thread that acknowledges Terrakion as a legitimate part of every good VolTurn team - "lol he doesn't have U-turn" is not a legitimate argument when I bring him up. Terrakion is probably the single most powerful Pokemon in this meta right now with amazing offensive typing, powerful STABs and hand-picked coverage and he's the cleaner of choice on every VolTurn team I see. Not being prepared for Terrakion is not being prepared for OU.
Expert belt Landorus just seems silly to be honest, it is not sweeping anything or checking anything. Once you see that people are using the silly thing, your not going to switch your Celebi into Landorus even after an earthquake. It is like a baby touching a burning stove, once is enought. BTW, why are people using expert belt, Landorus doesn't seem to be a pokemon that gets a lof of super effective hits with mainly earthquake and u-turn coverage. Wouldn't muscle band be a better item to be bluffing with?
Odd question, but why are most hyper offensive teams physically based? Honestly the metagame seems over prepared for them. But I faced a 6 special attackers team the other day, and honestly Blissey didn't stand a fucking chance, a well built one doesn't even have to fear Blissey and Chansey. I don't want people to use it more (mainly because I don't like losing), but it seems odd that they aren't.
Odd question, but why are most hyper offensive teams physically based? Honestly the metagame seems over prepared for them. But I faced a 6 special attackers team the other day, and honestly Blissey didn't stand a fucking chance, a well built one doesn't even have to fear Blissey and Chansey. I don't want people to use it more (mainly because I don't like losing), but it seems odd that they aren't.
Ok, am i the only one who feels like they have to run the Scrotom combo on every team just to check Gengar? Im terrified of the sub sets, and feel like i need at least 2 checks to him on every team. That is probably a 4th gen mentality but he is still a large threat today. My choices to check him are Scrotom, faster pokes, or....Blissey. Blissey sucks and if i use faster pokes (starmie, alakazam and friends) then guess what!?!? I become a victim of opposing Scrotom combos! So all my teams are either Scrotom teams, or faster pokes with a magnezone thrown in. All because of Gengar. And to a lesser extent Terrakoin.
Most special attackers have Trick, Psyshock, or a sleeping move
Edit-All my teams arent those types but im having trouble building a new team that isnt one of those two types
Most special attackers have Trick, Psyshock, or a sleeping move
Edit-All my teams arent those types but im having trouble building a new team that isnt one of those two types
I guess that could be why, seems like a waste for one pokemon though.
Trick, psycho shock, ect, ect. Special attackers can fuck with the fat nurse's mind.
Has anyone tried running Rotom-C (Grass-type) to stop VoltTurn? It resists Water, Electric, and Steel, and can run Leaf Storm to take out Rotom-W and Hidden Power Fire for Scizor-or even Will-O-Wisp. In that case, a 252 Hp / 252 SpA set outspeeds Scizor and could probably tank a U-turn if Scizor is burned.
It might not counter VoltTurn perfectly, but it can disrupt it easily if you switch Rotom-C into Rotom-W.
Lemme run some calcs:
I'll use Specs Rotom-C with 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe, Specs Rotom-W with 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe, and standard Banded Scizor.
Rotom-W Volt Switch on Rotom-C: 14% - 16%
Rotom-W rain-boosted Hydro Pump on Rotom-C: 72% - 86%. Eek!
Rotom-C Leaf Storm on Rotom-W: 227% - 267% < I think this might KO with Stealth Rock.
Burnt Scizor's U-turn on Rotom-C: 67% - 79%
Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire on Scizor: 151% - 179%
Food for thought.
It might not counter VoltTurn perfectly, but it can disrupt it easily if you switch Rotom-C into Rotom-W.
Lemme run some calcs:
I'll use Specs Rotom-C with 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe, Specs Rotom-W with 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe, and standard Banded Scizor.
Rotom-W Volt Switch on Rotom-C: 14% - 16%
Rotom-W rain-boosted Hydro Pump on Rotom-C: 72% - 86%. Eek!
Rotom-C Leaf Storm on Rotom-W: 227% - 267% < I think this might KO with Stealth Rock.
Burnt Scizor's U-turn on Rotom-C: 67% - 79%
Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire on Scizor: 151% - 179%
Food for thought.
There's also the very real possibility that Rotom-W and Scizor are being run with Landorus or Infernape. The former can only deal 53.0-62.7% with U-turn, but the latter can easily OHKO with Flare Blitz. It is a nice way to slow down your opponent's Volt Turn, but it isn't without its flaws.
True. Rotom-C can Volt Switch to a teammate that can deal with those two.
Something weak to U-turn to stop volt-turn seems rather counter productive imo. If anything I'd use Rotom-H since it resists both volt switch and u-turn. The SR weakness is a drawback but it can be compensated by running a rapid spinner or by using pain split.
Max SpA overheat OHKO's Landorus after SR and obviously OHKOs Scizor and Ferrothorn. With stab on electric and fire you can run hp ice for dragons or hp fighting for TTar.
Max SpA overheat OHKO's Landorus after SR and obviously OHKOs Scizor and Ferrothorn. With stab on electric and fire you can run hp ice for dragons or hp fighting for TTar.
I use Signal Beam with my Magnezone (my own Volt-Turn) just so I don't have to trust Scizor to pressure Celebi, considering Celebi can run HP Fire. It's annoying since the team is Ground/Steel, but I manage well. That's the only reason I refuse to use Flash Cannon over it.
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