General Suspect Discussion Thread

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Wobbuffet is also not broken. First of all, due to the prominence of the Deoxys-D HO teams, most effective teams have at least one Pokemon that will be able to KO a Wobbuffet that has taken prior damage, so it is generally only getting a single kill at most, if even that. It's not a Pokemon that requires excessive preparation. Any player with a team weak to Wobbuffet is likely not only weak to a single Pokemon, but also weak to one of the most established team archetypes in the metagame.

That being said, because of team preview, a competent player should understand that if his/her Landorus kills something with a Choiced Earthquake, it is liable to being revenge killed the subsequent turn by any opposing Wobbuffet. In the same way should a competent player understand that if his/her Landorus kills something with a Choiced Earthquake, it is liable to letting any opposing Dragonite set up freely on it. If Dragonite would sweep the player's team, then using Earthquake to revenge kill something on a team with Dragonite a bad idea; if Scarf Landorus is necessary for a team to win, then using Earthquake to revenge kill something on a team with Wobbuffet is also a bad idea. I would argue that these are all easily understood consequences and do not make Wobbuffet broken. This (the nature of team preview) is a difference between Gen 4 and Gen 5's Wobbuffet that you neglected to mention, by the way.

In regards to defensive Pokemon, teams that carry defensive Pokemon must allow for the possibility of free set-up turns anyway, Wobbuffet or not. Lucario doesn't need Chansey to be locked into Toxic to set up on it, nor does Volcarona need Forretress to be locked into Rapid Spin. These are once again consequences of using those Pokemon, ones that can be abused easily without the need of Wobbuffet support.

 

[yee]

I'm worried that there's literally no more than a dozen usable teams in BW2- I assume we've established that without Rain / Sun / Sand your team is outclassed unless you've made Deo-D work or you have a Baton Pass chain. Let's see how much room for variance that leaves in teambuilding-

Hide

Rain- Toed / Torn-T / Thund-T / Starmie / Genesect / Ferrothorn (there's a pool of about 5 mons you can swap in here)

Sun- Ninetails / Genesect / Xatu / Dugtrio / attacker / attacker (attackers will be Victini / Venu / Volc or something similar every time)

Sand- Tar / SR Rak / Skarm / Jelli / Latios / Scarftran (why would you use something too much different when it matchups up so well vs the other weathers / Genesect?) You could also use a Hippo version with Starmie over Jelli if you're worried about Terrakion and swap for a different steel / make small changes but that's hardly variety). What other balance team would be appealing when there are these?

Stall- Aqua Tail SD Haxorus in rain, Thundurus-T in rain, Torn-T in rain, too easy to counterteam this to safely run it.

Baton Pass- Always there for a free win every now and then.

Deo-D / other lead Heavy Offense- Thanks to Multiscale Dragonite this can keep it's head above water (pun intended) with the help of multiple hazard stacking, Deo-D / Gengar / Genesect / Thund-T / Volc / Terrakion is a basic outline and Dual Screen heavy offense can do well too with things like Keldeo and Thund-T that don't really have counters.

The fact that the entire metagame fits in that little hide tag raises red flags for me. There's supposed to be a few more usable teams than that.

 

[haunter]

I think you're forgetting that hail teams are still perfectly viable, if anything yesterday's test tour proves it. Also, can you please elaborate? What kind of diversity would a weather-less metagame bring?

 

[ginganinja]

I think that you are overstating things yee. Weatherless has been done before, and it doesn't need to run Deoxys D + 5 attackers or whatever your claiming, to be successful. I have seen and used non weather teams be used successfully in BW2 (heck, looking at the stats by Antar, 52% of teams are weatherless) and I actually think that removing Rain / Sun / Sand (?) limits the variety of archetypes within the game.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I'm worried that there's literally no more than a dozen usable teams in BW2- I assume we've established that without Rain / Sun / Sand your team is outclassed unless you've made Deo-D work or you have a Baton Pass chain. Let's see how much room for variance that leaves in teambuilding-

Hide

Rain- Toed / Torn-T / Thund-T / Starmie / Genesect / Ferrothorn (there's a pool of about 5 mons you can swap in here)

Sun- Ninetails / Genesect / Xatu / Dugtrio / attacker / attacker (attackers will be Victini / Venu / Volc or something similar every time)

Sand- Tar / SR Rak / Skarm / Jelli / Latios / Scarftran (why would you use something too much different when it matchups up so well vs the other weathers / Genesect?) You could also use a Hippo version with Starmie over Jelli if you're worried about Terrakion and swap for a different steel / make small changes but that's hardly variety). What other balance team would be appealing when there are these?

Stall- Aqua Tail SD Haxorus in rain, Thundurus-T in rain, Torn-T in rain, too easy to counterteam this to safely run it.

Baton Pass- Always there for a free win every now and then.

Deo-D / other lead Heavy Offense- Thanks to Multiscale Dragonite this can keep it's head above water (pun intended) with the help of multiple hazard stacking, Deo-D / Gengar / Genesect / Thund-T / Volc / Terrakion is a basic outline and Dual Screen heavy offense can do well too with things like Keldeo and Thund-T that don't really have counters.

The fact that the entire metagame fits in that little hide tag raises red flags for me. There's supposed to be a few more usable teams than that.

Speak for your self.. lmao at the sand team having to have a scarf tran.. There's MANY viable teams you can still make, the only essential part of a sun/rain/sand team is ninetales/politoed/Tyranitar or hippodown respectively.. Even a good one. i.e. You don't NEED a genesect/xatu/dugtrio on a sun team, hype has just currently made it a common set but the metagame will shift.

Ninetales can wear out various types of tyranitar and politoed on it's own with moves like will-o-wisp/toxic/pain split/sunny day or the like. You can knock off weather inducers with a toxic spiker, you can deal with heatran using an infernape, and that's just some minor examples for a sun team!

TL:DR; there's enough evidence that there are multiple viable weather and non weather teams.. hence why there are more than 40 pokemon in OU alone.

 

[yee]

I elaborated already on how weather is unhealthy for the metagame. BKC has also helped me gather even more logs of matchup-based games involving weather or Deoxys-D.

To restate, the basic idea is that when Rain / Sun are available in current form, there's no reason not to use them and they're the most effective teams by miles when not interrupted by other weathers. With pokemon getting 50% boosts on their attacks, doubled speed, movepools (in Tornadus's case), halved weaknesses (especially important for Scizor / Ferrothorn), automatic status healing, double leftovers etc. I see no reason this needs to be contested. Either a team of this type needs to be used or the best one at dealing with it (It hurts me when I see someone claim that their weatherless team can deal with all weather just fine).

Why list Sand and Deoxys-D as the options to take them on? Sand has a much better chance than Hail because Rain abusers are mostly pokemon you can switch into with other things- there's a water or a grass somewhere that can pivot into a rain-boosted attack and 3 counters for Tornadus-T (Rotom-W / Zapdos / Jirachi) although all of them are liabilities on a U-Turn to Thundurus or Dugtrio. With Sun, there's Venusaur / Victreebel / Volcarona / Darmanitan- and for the most part barring Multi Scale Dragonite anything you can throw at them (it's just Heatran for their main attacks) is trapped by Dugtrio, you need weather or absolute hazard control to win making Hail a loss more often than not. Abomasnow is also simply not on par with Tyranitar or Hippowdon, it's not a specially defensive behemoth that doubles as an attacker or the most useful physical wall in the game- it just provides hail damage and boosts Kyurem. It's very very rare using it can be completely justified. Deoxys-D offense is now held down by the use of Xatu on standard Sun of course but it can certainly try to work around it by tricking a Scarf- running Multiple Dragons helps but when it can't get the hazards Chlorophyll sweepers will have the obvious advantage. It can try against the other weathers well enough. Baton Pass is a weird exception- if the chain isn't stopped by Roar / Mold Breaker Haxorus or Stealth Rock + Roar Tyranitar or something it'll almost definitely win.

When there's superior strategies in these two weathers why would we use anything else or the very few things that can match up against them power wise? The other side effects of this (untimely crits on the weather war mon deciding games / Tentacruel Scald stall wars) don't need to be discussed when there's a few teams that are simply stronger than all of the other ones. If you get rid of the weathers that lead to this team building becomes less like putting together a sandwich of things that are best at working in the weather / working together against other ones and more about putting together a cohesive unit with synergy rather than the best one that could be made to house the broken pokemon. It's very obvious what the best pokemon are and with Politoed and Ninetails it's very obvious what to pair with them.

A small number of strategies / pokemon that are way better than the other ones leads to a low number of viable teams that can be made- which of course is a trait of an unhealthy metagame. Is a weatherless team vs Sun ever a fair matchup or better yet, a good game? I hope no further elaboration is needed.

 

[haunter]

While I agree that weather based teams, especially sun based ones, get an immense advantage over weather-less teams I don't think that removing weather would bring any more diversity within the metagame. The fact is that there will always be superior Pokemon\strategies that will centralize the game to a certain degree. Removing weather would only cause a shift in strategies, but I highly doubt that a weather-less metagame would be more diverse in terms of viable Pokemon. When I asked you to elaborate, I meant exactly this: what Pokemon\strategies do you think would immediately become good\usable in a metagame without permanent weather? The way I see it, the anti-weather party is only listing the advantages of running weather based teams. What advantages, in terms of diversity, would we gain from banning permanent weather?

Oh, by the way, I believe that the "match-up" based argument is complete bullshit. It's like saying that a team made of 6 wall-breakers is broken because it gets an unfair match-up against full stall. Match-up is an unavoidable aspect of Pokemon, since no matter how good you are at building teams, you'll always have troubles with certain Pokemon\strategies.

 

[yee]

Stall- This is also a symptom of Thundurus-T and friends in general that are really powerful but the last time stall was viable it was forced to run a counteracting weather.

Reuniclus- Calm Mind sets will make a comeback- it no longer has to worry about Calm Mind Jirachi in rain outclassing it and countering it. It can also now set up on more special attackers (Specs Water/Fire attacks don't kill after a CM without the weather).

Conkeldurr- There will now be room to fit this monster on teams again, it doesn't have a set role for weather but it does have a great attack stat and bulk that pairs perfectly with it's movepool and ability- don't forget the terror this guy and Rank used to be. Boosted Hydro Pumps and Hurricanes are what's holding him down.

Dragon offense- This will no longer have to worry about Cholorophyll sweepers having a massive advantage against it- the raw power of these guys will get to the ground, even more so because it has Gothitelle to help deal with Sub Glisc who also trolled these teams before.

Metagross- Choice Band / Agility / even Stealth Rock sets should see a jump in usefulness due to their sudden ability to tank relevant hits- one of Metagross's old selling points. All of the things I've listed above happen to be examples.

Toxic Spikes abuse- Without Tentacruel in rain to work around, there is no chance the other team can freely switch in to absorb them all the time if they have the right matchup, meaning we should see more of Suicune, Sub Zapdos, Sub Split Rotom-W, Shaymin, maybe even Raikou etc.

Gengar- Gengar will no longer just be Deoxys-D's slave, it'll be a full on attacker by itself without worry of being outclassed by weather boosted special sweepers, sure things like Latios get roles but that's because it can tank hits from Rain and Sun. Another mon to add to the T spike abuse list.

Excadrill- Who knows, maybe people will start using Sandstorm Excadrill if we ban sand. I wasn't proposing we do so yet but if it does happen we could have another Rain Dance Kingdra or another spinner to add which would be huge with the lack we have now.

Cloyster- Shell Smash sets will no longer have to worry about checks like Tentacruel staying healthy the entire match and even has unique oppurtunities to set up on physical walls. When I had weatherless vs weatherless matches I actually frequently found a Utility set capable of being useful every match by doing it's job against any team's physically bulky pokemon.

Mew- A lot of teams play around this by blasting it with Rain / Sun boosted attacks, Taunt WoW could become much more annoying and Baton Pass sets will certainly shine more.

Salamence- Currently often passed up as an attacker because weather sweepers are easier to use and check some big things- but with no worries about a nerfed fire attack Salamence will certainly become more of a threat.

Fire types in general- Pokemon like Darmanitan won't have the required teammate of Ninetails to be used, having that attack stat available for any team is a fun prospect.

Mixed with the lack of "required teammates" in weather starters we will certainly achieve something.

 

[haunter]

I'd say that dragons are already common enough (just look at the most recent server stats) to want to give them even more opportunities to shine by removing some of the few "checks" that things like Dragonite have. As for the other Pokemon you mentioned:

- Reuniclus: solidly OU and I'm not sure that weather has any impact on his decreased usage. Even if you remove Tyrantar there would still be things like Scizor, Genesect, Jirachi etc to keep it in check;
- Conkeldurr: again a solid OU Pokemon that is 39th in usage, I'm not sure why you would want to make its usage rise while making things like Toxicroak completely disappear from the game;
- Metagross: already rising is usage and a stable presence in OU;
- Toxic spikes: maybe you're right or maybe Tentacruel would not drop in usage cause it's still a bulky spinner that can take fighting moves, lay down its own TS and is not pursuit weak;
- Gengar: higher than Terrakion in usage, not sure what you mean here;
- Excadrill: it was banned due to weather so I'll give you that;
- Cloyster: 31th in usage, not sure why you would want to make its shell smash set even more powerful;
- Mew: might rise in usage but, again, it's already OU and its current level of usage is pretty high among high rated players;
- Salamence: again an already powerful OU Pokemon that does not need any help to shine.
- Darmanitan and other fire types: you're really making yourself a disservice here. Many fire types like Victini and Darmanitan itself get to be used in OU just because they're useful on sun teams. Removing sun would only make them less viable.

Let's also take into account what we're going to lose along with permanent weather if we decide to ban it:
- Politoed\Ninetales\TTar\Abomasnow: obviously;
- Gastrodon: no need to run it in a meta where water attacks are no longer a problem;
- Toxicroak: gets its niche thanks to drizzle and dry skin;
- Venusaur: only used in conjunction with drought;
- Dugtrio: no need to use it to trap opposing weather summoners.
- Victini: used solely on sun teams to abuse its ridiculously powerful V-create under sun.

There's probably more but that's enough for me to say that banning weather would probably:
1) add 1-2 Pokemon to OU while making it lose other 9-10;
2) remove many offensive and defensive play styles in order to only make full dragon offense more powerful, and probably give more chances to weather-less stall.

No thanks.

 

[ginganinja]

Reuniclus- Calm Mind sets will make a comeback- it no longer has to worry about Calm Mind Jirachi in rain outclassing it and countering it. It can also now set up on more special attackers (Specs Water/Fire attacks don't kill after a CM without the weather).

I highly doubt this. As Haunter pointed out, weather doesn't really affect it that much, and it still struggles with Jirachi (which will just drop Thunder for Thunderbolt, and run Flash Cannon / Psyshock like it did in DPP (well Psychic over Psyshock but same point)). It never really threatened stall (well the good stall teams could handle it fairly easy, you apparently want to keep Tar and ban Toed / Tales (idk why) so thats still viable for checking Rank, or stall can run Jirachi / Sableye / random taunt shit / how they always handled it. Rank still has to deal with Genesect and Scizor anyway, as well as shit like CB Nite which it couldn't beat anyway. Quite honestly, I don't see its usage peaking if we dropped weather.

Conkeldurr- There will now be room to fit this monster on teams again, it doesn't have a set role for weather but it does have a great attack stat and bulk that pairs perfectly with it's movepool and ability- don't forget the terror this guy and Rank used to be. Boosted Hydro Pumps and Hurricanes are what's holding him down.

Still don't expect its usage to peak much either. Sure, not having to worry about Hurricane and Hydro Pump is nice, sure, but from experience you didn't need to run weather in order to check it, the fact that Psychic attacks are more common due to the increased nuimber of fighting types (Terrakion / Breloom / Keldeo have all increased in usage) would prolly still hurt it.

Metagross- Choice Band / Agility / even Stealth Rock sets should see a jump in usefulness due to their sudden ability to tank relevant hits- one of Metagross's old selling points. All of the things I've listed above happen to be examples.

I used Metagross a lot, still do as a matter of fact, and didn't find weather a major obstacle to its success. In my testing, weather again didn't really effect the success of its CB sets (which still hit like a truck), SR sets are fine etc etc. Honestly, its fine lol.

Cloyster- Shell Smash sets will no longer have to worry about checks like Tentacruel staying healthy the entire match and even has unique oppurtunities to set up on physical walls. When I had weatherless vs weatherless matches I actually frequently found a Utility set capable of being useful every match by doing it's job against any team's physically bulky pokemon.

Actually id claim Cloyster would drop in usage. In my testing, running SS / Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Hydro Pump was really effective, especially when it had the support of rain. If you take away Rain, its arguably even easier to handle, since its water stabs no longer have that boost. I don't think Cloyster is so overpowered that we need to get rid of rain to handle it, but ?_?

For the rest, honestly just refer to Haunters post, I was going to respond to all of it, but then I saw Haunters post, and it covers pretty much everything. I think that most of the things you argue would peak in usage, are not too handicaped by weather in the first place, most of them experience a fair bit of usage anyway, and yea, refer to Haunters post.

 

[BKC]

I believe that the "match-up" based argument is complete bullshit. It's like saying that a team made of 6 wall-breakers is broken because it gets an unfair match-up against full stall. Match-up is an unavoidable aspect of Pokemon, since no matter how good you are at building teams, you'll always have troubles with certain Pokemon\strategies.

I agree that match-up will always be a part of mons. However, it should never be as bad as it is now, where the majority of battles are literally decided on teams and not actual battling skill -- yee and I have both made posts about this with examples and explanations. The weather-driven archetypes in the metagame are countered by each other and that's what leads to this match-up factor that leads to battles in which no matter how well you play, based on the team you've chosen, you'll almost always lose -- Sand Stall almost always beats Rain Offense, Sun almost always beats Deo-D ["weatherless"] offense, so on and so forth. The match-up should never be so bad to the point where you literally can't play your way out of it no matter what.

The point I'm trying to drive home is: Getting rid of weather doesn't completely eliminate team match-up, but makes it much more manageable, and puts more emphasis on the winner of a battle being the guy who played better rather than the guy whose team matched up better. A weather-less metagame also introduces a lot of mons that become a lot more viable without permanent weather ruining them in one way or another -- examples include Togekiss, Infernape, and pretty much everything on yee's list. Several mons also become much easier to deal with without permanent weather -- without sun, Venusaur is no longer a terror packing doubled speed and a Growth that doubles both offensive stats; without rain, Tornadus-T can't spam Hurricanes at will; without sand, Terrakion's otherwise-average special bulk isn't boosted to levels that let him eat Latios's Choice Specs Draco Meteor, and while I'm on the subject of sand, Excadrill, who I believe should come down if weather is banned, isn't the broken behemoth he is without it.

It's more important for the metagame to be an environment where team match-up doesn't instantly decide games like it does now than it is to be an environment where there's more variety -- plus, a weather-less metagame brings with it a different kind of variety.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

.

That's still a tall order to do a no weather ban.

Every generation so far has brought some major changes to the metagame. I understand this time GF didn't do a great job with balance, ie rain has EVERYTHING it could possibly want... (also you all but need heatran on a no weather team) but still weather has become part of the game.

I agree that weather keeps the metagame interesting and keeps more pokemon in OU. The argument that fire types are not common in OU due to rain is also absurd, all of the fire types that dominate UU are mediocre in this OU meta at best. Arcanine has no boosting moves, chandelure is slow, Darmanitan has poor defences and is amazingly predictable.. Victini is cursed by a mediocre typing combination and awkward movepool/stat/ability combo (albeit a magic guard fire/psychic with >100 SpAtk/Spd would be amazing).

PS. The only non-predictable UU dominant fire type is chandelure.. and she is just far too slow for OU. Houndoom is better in OU than UU imo :)

 

[X5Dragon]

Revising the decision on previous OU suspects and continue to suspect test he new forms/mons/abilities should satisfy both sides, as it means declawing weather and enrich inning OU with "not broken anymore" Pokemon, especially since people are more willing to accept complex bans on abilities.

And let's be fair, there is no such as a perfect team, different play styles will always be weak against a certain type of team.

 

[shrang]

stuff

I'm sorry, but you're being too liberal with your assumptions here. You are assuming that either 1) the Pokemon that you named would actually be good in a rain/sun-less metagame or 2) that the good Pokemon that you listed would be any better or worse than they are now. I really don't think we'd be at a position to be coming that conclusion because there are so many variables in this equation. You can't just list a whole bunch of Pokemon that would be more viable without weather either. If that's a valid argument, then we would have banned Stealth Rock years ago. Sure, it would push some Pokemon like Volcarona and Dragonite into Ubers, but hey, we just made pretty much every Bug, Ice, Flying and Fire-type more viable.

Personally, I don't think rain and sun are broken. I used to in round 1 and 2, but I don't any more. While the metagame may seem like it's a six way brawl between the four weathers, Volt-turn and Deo-D + Dragons, that's just because people find using those easier. Like I said in the other weather vs non-weather thread on DST, there is a difference between what's good and what is easy. Of course, it is easy to make a good rain offense team or a Ninetales + Duggy + whatever, it is just as possible and viable to make a good weatherless offense that uses none of Volt-turn or Deo-D plus Dragon spam. In terms of variety, I personally think the metagame pretty diverse anyway. Although OU IS boring, it's no less diverse, in my opinion, than late DPP OU where it was just Lead + Heatran + Celebi/Shaymin + Bulky Water + fillers teams. Again, that wasn't the only viable team back then, but sure was the most popular because it was easy to make.

As for the match-up argument, I don't really think this is that much of a problem. Firstly, I don't think it's as pronounced as you guys make it to be. People are still using weatherless to beat sun teams and all that. It still is coming down to the skill of player 1 vs the skill of player 2, as well as the decisions that they make, as well as hax. Simply put, for that period of time in which a Pokemon match goes for, if you play better than your opponent and are not critically lucked out, you are the winner of that match. No ifs no buts. Secondly, the fact remains that every competitive game or sport will have matchup advantages and disadvantages. There will always be weaknesses in every strategy. Conversely, there will always be matchups where you're are naturally at an advantage. That is okay, it is part of the game. Your goal is to minimise your weaknesses and play to your strengths as much as possible. The one who does that wins, not the one who carries a naturally advantageous strategy.

 

[BKC]

It still is coming down to the skill of player 1 vs the skill of player 2

I feel like this argument is going in circles. I won't deny that the bolded does happen on occasion, but it's vastly outnumbered by how much the opposite happens; yee and I have made several posts showing examples of how this isn't the case, and shown how this can be fixed. With all due respect, Haunter, and I apologise if this isn't what you were trying to say, but I believe dismissing our argument because you don't think very highly of some 'mons yee suggested as potentially viable without weather would be a bit foolish; I've seen nearly every single one of them used by a top player at least once [the first two examples that come to mind are Giga Punch using Togekiss in WCoP and IFM using Medicham in SPL]. I've wouldn't dismiss Gallade either, it's a very solid albeit rare mon that I've seen used to success a few times. I honestly think every single 'mon on that list is viable in OU without weather. Variety is not my main argument -- the team matchup issue is -- however, I'm trying to say that without weather, the metagame would not lose all of its variety as you may think it would, but rather, it would have a new kind of it.

There will always be weaknesses in every strategy. Conversely, there will always be matchups where you're are naturally at an advantage. That is okay, it is part of the game. Your goal is to minimise your weaknesses and play to your strengths as much as possible.

I agree with this part, this has always been the case in Pokemon. However:

The one who does that wins, not the one who carries a naturally advantageous strategy.

This is, unfortunately, usually not true in BW, for reasons that've been mentioned multiple times in my other posts. I am not saying that this is 100% always the case, but it happens a hell of a lot more than it doesn't, and that is the issue I am trying to solve.

 

[shrang]

I feel like this argument is going in circles. I won't deny that the bolded does happen on occasion, but it's vastly outnumbered by how much the opposite happens; yee and I have made several posts showing examples of how this isn't the case, and shown how this can be fixed. With all due respect, Haunter, and I apologise if this isn't what you were trying to say, but I believe dismissing our argument because you don't think some 'mons yee suggested as potentially viable without weather are good would be a bit foolish; I've seen nearly every single one of them used by a top player at least once [the first two examples that come to mind are Giga Punch using Togekiss in WCoP and IFM using Medicham in SPL]. I've wouldn't dismiss Gallade either, it's a very solid albeit rare mon that I've seen used to success a few times.


I agree with this part, this has always been the case in Pokemon. However:

This is, unfortunately, usually not true in BW, for reasons that've been mentioned multiple times in my other posts. I am not saying that this is 100% always the case, but it happens a hell of a lot more than it doesn't, and that is the issue I am trying to solve.

Yes, I agree that if you have a favourable matchup you'll have a better chance of winning. I am expecting positive win-rates of sun teams to weatherless teams, for example. Rafael Nadal does have an excellent head-to-head record against Roger Federer. It is partly due to the fact that his left handed forehand goes straight into weakest part of Federer's game, which is his backhand. You'd expect these kind of things to happen. However, I do think I've played enough Pokemon to believe that the biggest deciding factor in every game I've played is who played the better game, not the person with the advantageous team. Again, it does play a significant part, I admit, but it still does not trump a better player (and most importantly) playing a better game, from my observations.

In terms of the Pokemon that you listed, like I said, you can't just list Pokemon that could potentially be more viable without rain/sun as evidence for a ban. Like I said, if that were the case, we should ban Stealth Rock because it would make like 100 Pokemon more viable.

 

[BKC]

Yes, I agree that if you have a favourable matchup you'll have a better chance of winning. I am expecting positive win-rates of sun teams to weatherless teams, for example. Rafael Nadal does have an excellent head-to-head record against Roger Federer. It is partly due to the fact that his left handed forehand goes straight into weakest part of Federer's game, which is his backhand. You'd expect these kind of things to happen. However, I do think I've played enough Pokemon to believe that the biggest deciding factor in every game I've played is who played the better game, not the person with the advantageous team. Again, it does play a significant part, I admit, but it still does not trump a better player (and most importantly) playing a better game, from my observations.

In terms of the Pokemon that you listed, like I said, you can't just list Pokemon that could potentially be more viable without rain/sun as evidence for a ban. Like I said, if that were the case, we should ban Stealth Rock because it would make like 100 Pokemon more viable.

Well, that's what I've been saying this whole time -- guys playing better games and making bigger plays are losing battles because of how big a factor team match-up is; yee and I have posted several logs to illustrate this point. Our observations are drawn from high-level tournament play, where this is indeed a factor [and I've been in/watched several ladder battles where team matchup was too big a deficit to overcome as well, so this isn't a tournaments-only problem as some people have suggested]; with all due respect, I'd like to know where your observations are from, because if you're referring to battles that're conducted at the level that our examples are, then I wonder how you could draw such a different conclusion.

Those 'mons being listed as viable outside of weather isn't our primary argument -- they were just listed to show that there is variety outside of weather, since it has been suggested that removing weather would result in a severe loss of variety, which isn't true; you'd have a different type of variety. Our primary argument is how the huge factor of team match-up is resulting in games being won/lost on pre-game team selection, not playing skill.

edit: Razza, how about you explain your argument for once? Each of those teams in those games are fundamentally solid, but that doesn't mean they're not matchup-prone. There have been several excellent teams this gen that almost automatically lose to matchup. Also, you quoting matchup-driven like you can't believe such a concept can exist makes you look even more arrogant, conidering you'd know this if you actually played in a big tournament such as WCoP or SP.

 

[Razza]

Well, that's what I've been saying this whole time -- guys playing better games and making bigger plays are losing battles because of how big a factor team match-up is; yee and I have posted several logs to illustrate this point. Our observations are drawn from high-level tournament play, where this is indeed a factor [and I've been in/watched several ladder battles where team matchup was too big a deficit to overcome as well, so this isn't a tournaments-only problem as some people have suggested]; with all due respect, I'd like to know where your observations are from, because if you're referring to battles that're conducted at the level that our examples are, then I wonder how you could draw such a different conclusion.

of the logs you posted, i didnt see any games decided by matchup that couldnt have been prevented had the player been more careful about their teambuilding or chosen the team they would use in such a "matchup-driven" environment more carefully

 

[Danger Mouse]

Honestly, it seems like some people want to make the metagame more favorable to them by banning a whole bunch of stuff. I've seen weather, Deoxys-D, Keldeo, Volcarona, Wobuffett, Genesect and Tornadus-T all suggested for the chopping block. Yeah, I get tired of seeing the same cookie cutter rain and sun teams, too...but those teams are usually run by mediocre players who can be outplayed even by a scrub like me. Also, I do agree that it can be hard to overcome a matchup disadvantage - but I don't see how banning a whole bunch of stuff will make things any different.
I thought the overall goal is to ban the fewest things possible to make the metagame enjoyable, not ban every pokemon somebody finds annoying (or difficult) to face. For instance, I hate Jirachi with a passion, but I know that it's not realistically ban-worthy.

 

[BKC]

If I wanted to ban every 'mon I found "annoying" or "difficult" to face, I'd be lobbying for the bans of Terrakion, Volcarona, Dragonite, Genesect, and a few others. The 'mons I want banned -- Toed / Tales / Deo-D -- are more than just an inconvenience to a team of mine, they turn the entire metagame into a pre-battle team selection contest more often than not. If you're going to attribute match-up losses to sloppy teambuilding, then you might as well call the archived Frontier-winning Tabloo sloppy, because against it, all a sun team has to do is get up sun, trap Heatran with Dugtrio, and then Volcarona sweeps the entire team [I'm aware the metagame's changed since then, but Dugtrio sun had been around for a while before that team was made]. This is just one example of a great, accomplished team that almost auto-loses to a certain match-up.

 

[X5Dragon]

Actually I think this is the right time to bring about the 60% flinch/para, 600. BST, priority resisting fairy from hell. How mant times have people lst matches within their hands only o be flinched to death? It s also no surprise that s mentioned as the most deadliest Pokemon behind a sub and when a Rachi user complains about hax because he DIDN'T gt a serene grace effect we have a problem. We can also talk about the very few counters that it has but I think that s enough. We need a fair meta, Jirachi isn't making things better.

Paraflinchers can proceed to ask for my hanging now...

 

[Gary]

But then again, Genesect outspeeds Heatran and it never, EVER lacks flamethrower. Genesect can easily go out to something like dugtrio, however.

Well that wasn't really my point. I never in my life switch in Ferrothorn to check Genesect in any way, but if I know for a fact that U-Turn is coming, Genesect can be greatly damaged by it.

Besides even if Genesect can out speed Heatran, why would it matter? Sure Genesect can U-Turn out of there faster before I can OHKO it with Fire Blast, but then again they run the risk of me switching into my Ferrothorn. Genesect has no Water or Fighting moves to take out Heatran anyway, so the only thing I can expect is a U-Turn, which is double resisted. This gives me a free chance to Roar out the check that he was most likely going to switch into, or just to throw out some Stealth Rocks.

My point is, with the right support, Genesect can be checked. He is very powerful and versatile, but I think he's far from broken.

 

[Danger Mouse]

If I wanted to ban every 'mon I found "annoying" or "difficult" to face, I'd be lobbying for the bans of Terrakion, Volcarona, Dragonite, Genesect, and a few others. The 'mons I want banned -- Toed / Tales / Deo-D -- are more than just an inconvenience to a team of mine, they turn the entire metagame into a pre-battle team selection contest more often than not. If you're going to attribute match-up losses to sloppy teambuilding, then you might as well call the archived Frontier-winning Tabloo sloppy, because against it, all a sun team has to do is get up sun, trap Heatran with Dugtrio, and then Volcarona sweeps the entire team [I'm aware the metagame's changed since then, but Dugtrio sun had been around for a while before that team was made]. This is just one example of a great, accomplished team that almost auto-loses to a certain match-up.

I honestly don't see how this is any different than how the game functions normally, though. There isn't any one team that can beat every playstyle out there...you'll always have a serious vulnerability to something. You can compensate for it with skill, but you'll still be at a disadvantage when the time comes. I don't feel I've ever lost a game just because of match-up. Either I was outplayed, I made a stupid mistake, or my team had a vulnerability I failed to account for.

 

[Ojama]

Do not listen to Haunter, this noob doesn't even play Pokemon, how could he argue about the OU metagame. TAKE THAT NOOB

Your posts were too long guys so i didn't read them completely but i got the problem ^_^
Even though Haunter is a painter at Pokemon, such as ginganinjaturtle, i do agree with them. WHY ? ...

Weathers totally centralize the metagame but this is not a reason to ban them, same for deoxys-d, even though deo-d's problem is different. Before talking about toed + tales, lets talk a bit about deo-d. This thing is too good, really. Those who disagree are dumb. Imo, deo-d deserved to get banned in BW1 and since Haunter is a OU Council member, this is entirely his fault + the rest of the ou council (FUK WORMS). For an obscure reason you guys didnt ban it and thats a terrible mistake. Just look at badabing + noodlez who destroyed almost every brain with deo-d teams. Im not going to say that because im a stall player, but this is already pretty hard to play stall in BW with dragmag/volturn teams + powerfull threats like Terrakion/Landorus, so with deo-d this is just not possible. So, i was totally for its ban in BW1 but not in BW2. Why ? Because that Sun team with Xatu is everywhere ? AND, because Genesect does exist. Bug Buzz +1 expert belt can OHKO it IIRC (not sure) and U-Turn +0 from scarfgene does around 45%. So that means deoxys-d is only able to set up Stealth Rock (i assume that after uturning with gene you send out something able to finish it off like specslatios / sheerforce landorus etc) which is normal and not broken. Playing with Stealth Rock on your field is a thing you do everyday and you also can use a rapid spinner... Dont tell me genesect isn't used ^_^

That said lets talk about weathers. The BW OU metagame is centralized around sand/rain/sun, yah and ? You guys want to play DPP OU in BW OU ? Hey come on, this is a totally different metagame and weathers arent that broken and i think i know what im talking about. Imo, Sun looks like the only "broken weather" with dugtrio who traps Heatran, one of the few gene's counters but this isn't a reason. Hippowdon cannot be trap'd by Dugtrio and sand teams members are able to destroy a whole sun team (landorus, scarfterrakion etc). What about rain ? How to handle specs hydropump with a sun team ? Yah, we all know this is pretty hard. This is always the same story, the famous weather war : "who wins the weather war wins the game". Each weather is able to beat the two others so i dont see why we should bann them.

Also, weatherless teams work well in this metagame. Of course its a bit tough against sun teams but this is not impossible to win. Look, i have been using a random HO on PO ladder : mew lando terra gene rotom dragonite. 1627 with that team, so yah non-weather teams are competitive.

If i correctly understood, you guys want to ban Toed and Tales. What about Tar and Hippowdon . Yo guys, lets help Landorus and Terrakion to be stronger, they arent enough good. ALLO ? Without Toed and Tales, a lot of Pokemon would be useless. Tornadus(-T), Tentacruel, Venusaur, Ferrothorn would be less good, same for Dragonite etc. Without them, the metagame would be very very very bad. Imo Sand is the best weather so why you guys want to help it by banning Rain + Sun ? Ridiculous.

The metagame would be very interesting without Toed and Tales, random offense everywhere since rainstall and sun offense would no longer exist. ^_^

 

[android]

Actually I think this is the right time to bring about the 60% flinch/para, 600. BST, priority resisting fairy from hell. How mant times have people lst matches within their hands only o be flinched to death? It s also no surprise that s mentioned as the most deadliest Pokemon behind a sub and when a Rachi user complains about hax because he DIDN'T gt a serene grace effect we have a problem. We can also talk about the very few counters that it has but I think that s enough. We need a fair meta, Jirachi isn't making things better.

Paraflinchers can proceed to ask for my hanging now...

I agree with this sentiment. Kudos to this guy for bringing up what is in my opinion one of the most suspect Pokemon that seems to somehow stay under people's radar.

Jirachi without Serene Grace is a great Pokemon, but Serene Grace puts it over the top imo. On top of it's ridiculously good defensive typing, 100/100/100 bulk, awesome coverage, recovery and hazard setting ability, it has a 60% paralysis and flinch, 40% Confusion, and 20% Freeze/Burn. There's no safe switch in for Jirachi until you know it's set, by which time the damage may already be done. If you switch your Jellicent in hoping to stop a paraflinch Jirachi, you might be faced with SubCM. Hope you brought Gastrodon too.

When it comes to the 'use something faster' argument, Body Slam, Thunder, and Thunder Wave nullify; you can never switch something faster into Jirachi safely. But the main issue is not the lack of safe switch ins. The issue is the very nature of paraflinch Jirachi. You are left to praying to the RNG gods that your 'counter' gets a chance to actually counter Jirachi. Even if you are (were) faster, if you aren't resistant to Steel, and sometimes even if you are, Jirachi can tank any move you've got that isn't named Earthquake and proceed to paralyze you and flinch you to death.

Paraflinching is uncompetitive. It doesn't always work, but that is precisely the reason why it is so uncompetitive. I don't understand how paraflinch can be seen as a desirable aspect of a balanced, enjoyable metagame, especially on a Pokemon like Jirachi that can abuse it so effortlessly.