Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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Pokebank will only change a few things we know so far:
  • stat changes for mostly irrelevant to OU mons that won't matter until UU/RU/NU are made
  • A few potential egg moves, that except for maybe Goodra getting recover, won't really change a thing.
  • Non in XY mons getting a few new moves. Only major one I can remember is Tornadus apparently getting Aeroblast and Entei with Sacred Fire(only really relevant for the ones of us that like to play RU sometimes), both of them hinted/confirmed by the maison(or just ai cheating that is also likely).

None of these look like something that would make Gengar easier to stop. or slightly less effective at what it does.

And PGL pretty much confirmed nothing else is getting fairy-type. This should be obvious after a mon with everything moon related(Cresselia) didn't get it, but still listing it for those that don't know that.
A simple retype, new ability, or new move can really make a big difference. Togekiss and Azumarill are seeing much more usage and have a shot at OU just because of a simple retype. Scoliopede has gone from complete zero to hero with his fancy new Speed Boost, an ability which by itself makes an entire playstyle like baton pass even possible. Exploud is just now seeing the light of day with it's new Boomburst move. About a hundred competitive pokemon are about to get an update, including OU veterans like Jirachi and Infernape, any one of which might get something game changing. That's not even counting new Mega Pokemon (Latios and Latias are confirmed to get Mega Evos) that might be lurking in the game code waiting to be unleashed when pokebank is released. I agree that Mega Gengar will most likely still be broken then but the problem is we just don't know. For all we know we could get a better shadow trapper that completely outclasses Gengar or some ridiculous pursuit user that makes Gengar about as useful as Dugtrio. We don't know and so we may as well wait a couple weeks to find out.
 
My Biggest question (not to stray away from the topic for too long) is let's just say that Mega Gengar does get quick-banned, will other Pokemon become unstable in terms of balance due to the Gengarite's absence? I know or at least hypothesize that it's too early to have a definite answer to this question as far as X and Y are concerned but it's something that I had in thought.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So far, I have honestly been completely unimpressed by Mega Gengar. Yes, it looks scary on paper, but it has so many flaws its not even funny. It can't trap the first time its in, and frankly can't take a hit at all, making it very difficult to trap later on, especially when it loses an immunity to gain the ability to trap. 170 SpA with no item is good, but nothing ridiculous. But simply stating those facts is just theorymon. The fact is, in battles I have had, it has yet to really do all that much. I mean, it can do most things that an offensive Gengar can do, maybe even a little better, but not to any amazing extent. It also fails to be able to replicate many of regular Gengar's best sets due to lack of lefties to go with Sub. As other have already said the only real set that is worth considering in this discussion is the Perish Trapper. Now, I will certainly admit its a good set, but I'm really not convinced at all it is broken. It can trap a ton of things and kill them, sure. But in the process it usually makes itself useless going forward. Getting rid of any one Pokemon of your choice is nice, but usually its still a one for one trade. Not always, of course, but often.

Now with all of that said, I will still fully admit that Mega Gengar does have the level of power that I think fully makes it suspect worthy. Maybe even ban worthy. HOWEVER, not now. Not like this. Its a good Pokemon, but its not so good to make it overtly and obviously detrimental to the metagame. It deserves its day in court, but that should be in a suspect test, not a quickban. It has not proven itself to be overwhelming, and so it really should be on the people to make this decision. My opinions on this are additionally strengthened by the fact that the only set even making this a consideration is one that is impossible to get in game. In current OU I would argue it doesn't even deserve a suspect test at all. But because it is only in the Pokebank where it is suspect, and because it is not overwhelmingly obvious, but just at that suspect level, any potential changes we don't know about could substantially affect how it should be tiered, meaning that I believe making such a decision now would be foolish.

So is it broken? I don't know. And I think it is a fact that an answer to such a question is not obvious. I don't put a lot of stock in winners of poll, but when you see something as close as this is, in either direction, I think it clearly shows a lack of overwhelming evidence either way. And, the very fact that there is such uncertainty is reason enough in my mind to not do a quickban.
 
i created this account for the sole purpose of explaining why i think mega gengar should be banned. the thing is the best sniper in the game. it swaps in to pick off the one or two pokemon that are the biggest threat to your team. if it dies afterwards, who cares? it took care of what it had to. between its move set, which allows it to cover pretty much every weakness in the game, its amazing base speed and its ability its guaranteed to take out what you need it to.

edit: i honestly dont even know why we are having this discussion. every argument for why it shouldnt be banned can be applied to every pokemon and dont impact this discussion in anyway.
 
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les do dis shit

Mons Mega Gengar can succesfully trap and kill:

- chesnaught: ohko by sludge WAVE. ITS WAVE. GOD DAM
- delphox: ohko by shadow ball, delphox can win if scarf AND locked in psychic. scarf seen in 20% of delphox so chances of beating mega gengar are under 15%~
- greninja: ohko by focus blast / thunderbolt
- talonflame: ive seen people say talonflame counters mega gengar which is funny, considering that cb talonflame has to be locked on brave bird in order to be able to win vs 0/0 mega gengar. if its sharp beak talonflame, it will never ohko 60 hp gengar, while gengar ohkos back with shadow ball + recoil or thunderbolt. also cb talonflame cant ohko max hp, some def mega gengar. sooo yea.
- pyroar: focus blast ohko
- gogoat: sludge bomb
- aromatisse: ohkod by sludge bomb
- barbaracle: thunderbolt / focus blast
- heliolisk: focus blast
- tyrantrum: ohko by focus blast, can win with scarf AND jolly max speed, but only 15% of tyrantrums are scarved and only 15%~ have jolly as their nature.
- aurorus: focus blast
- sylveon: ohkod by sludge bomb if 0/0, if not, cant do anything to gengar
- hawlucha: ohko by thunderbolt, 2hko with shadow ball and cant do much in return
- avalugg: focus blast
- azumarill: sludge bomb
- blissey: loses to perish trap
- breloom: ohko by sludge bomb
- celebi: sludge bomb or shadow ball
- cloyster: anythin
- dugtrio: rip
- espeon: rip
- ferrothorn: survives focus blast, buuut cant ohko with gyro ball
- forretress: 2hko with focus blast, gyro ball dont ko
- gastrodon: perish song set takes care of it
- gyarados: ohko by thunderbolt
- heatran: doesnt ohko and is ohkod or 2hkod
- hydreigon: ohkod by focus blast. only 20% have scarf, and it has to be locked into dark pulse to ko.
- infernape: ko by shadow ball
- jirachi: traps and ohkos
- keldeo: tbolt and cant ohko unless life orb
- kyurem-b: focus blast
- latias: ohko by shadow ball
- latios: same
- lucario: ohko by focus blast
- magnezone: read above
- mamoswine: same
- metagross: shadow ball
- reuniclus: ohkod
- skarmory: tbolt
- heracross: cant do shit even if scarved
- rotom-w: cant ohko and gets 2hkod, only wins if scarved.
- starmie: ohko by shadow ball
- tentacruel: tbolt
- terrakion: focus blast, can only win with scarved stone edge.
- thundurus: only wins if it has LO, otherwise 2hkod / ohkod with SR
- tornadus: cant ohko
- tyranitar: focus blast, cant outspeed even with scarf
- vaporeon: cant do shit
- venusaur: cant touch gengar
- excadrill: ohkod by focus blast
- mega charizard x: ohkod by tbolt
- mega charizard y: same
- mega blastoise: you too
- mega kangaskhan: focus blast
- mega gyarados: tbolt
- mega houndoom: focus blast
- mega ttar: focus blast
- mega gardevoir: shadow ball
- mega aggron: focus blast
- mega medicham: shadow ball
- mega lucario: focus blast
- mega abomasnow: focus blast


Mons that can beat Mega Gengar when trapped or are 50/50s:

- goodra: isnt 2hkod and can 2hko back, but loses to the perish song trap set. 50/50 pretty much
- malamar: wins all the time, whether scarf or not, as it can survive a hit from mega gengar.
- noivern: can take a shadow ball and ohko
- klefki: foul play 2hkos but mega gengar 2hkos first. however it can twave then foul play, sacrificing its own life to cripple gengar. still, dies but w/e crippling gengar is enuff.
- mega alakazam: outspeeds and ohkos
- conkeldurr: can survive a hit and ohko
- donphan: can survive a hit and ohko
- dragonite: can survive a hit and ohko
- garchomp: usually has scarf so outspeeds and kos, can also take a hit
- gliscor: survives and ohkos
- haxorus: can take a hit and kill, can outspeed with scarf
- hippowdon: can take a hit and ohko
- jolteon: 50/50
- landorus: can survive and ohko
- salamence: takes a hit or outspeeds with scarf
- scizor: woo scizor, bullet punch 2hko or pursuit
- toxicroak: wins with sucker punch
- volcarona: can take a hit, set up, and KO
- mega absol: can ohko with sucker punch
- mega aero: outspeeds
- mega scizor: like scizor
- mega garchomp: like normal
- mega manectric: outspeeds and isnt ohkod
- mega mawile: ohko and survives shadow ball
- mega heracross: rock blast wins
- mega ampharos: survives + ohkos


Ghosts:

- chandelure: has to be timid and with scarf (under 20% run scarf, and under 30% are timid) and locked into shadow ball / fire blast to win. then again its a ghost so it cant be trapped anyways.
- aegislash: ohkod by mega gengar but cant be trapped so at least hes got that going for him.
- trevenant: cant be trapped but ohkod anyways
- gengar: ohko
- jellicent: ohko
- mega banette: shadow sneak doesnt freaking ko LOL

------

so do you want to play a metagame in which theres a pokemon that can take care of 67 / 99 used mons WITHOUT HAVING TO THINK. two thirds. This isnt fucking theorymon yo, this is what will happen when a good player has a mega gengar on his team due to shadow tag. you cant switch out, you fucked up the moment you sent in any of those 67 mons and i got mega gengar in / will use him to revenge kill. again, no thinking involved. make it 73 / 99 if you count the 1v1s it wins against ghosts even though it cannot trap them.

cmon guys how the fuck can u think this guy is anywhere near OU. it ok, we can all go home now and ban mega gengar.

edit: apparently im an old (BAN ME PLEASE), theres some new shit called sludge wave that is betta than sludge bomb so imagine i said wave instead of bomb kthnx.
 
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Bulletproof makes it immune to Sludge Bomb :P

also, this thing is too easy to take down, Shadow Sneak and good playing is too easy. Waste of a megaslot imo.
MEGA BANETTE (471 attack. find me another shadow sneaker with 471 attack muthafucka i dare you, i double dare you) CANT OHKO IT WITH SHADOW SNEAK WTF R U ON

GOOD PLAYING? i wanna see you good play when you cant switch out LOL

"I deal with Mega Gengar by not switching in any of the 67 common pokemons it can trap and kill all of the time. I dont give a shit if theres a Volcarona crapping on me. Im not bringing in Blissey until Mega Gengar is gone." - Foundations of "Good Playing". 2013 - User Trevenant
 
Bulletproof makes it immune to Sludge Bomb :P

also, this thing is too easy to take down, Shadow Sneak and good playing is too easy. Waste of a megaslot imo.
that argument can be applied to pretty much every pokemon. just replace shadow sneak with an attack that is super effective against whomever. that in and of itself is not an answer as shadow tag ensures that mega gengar can run while the foe cannot. once you see the shadow sneak, you know not to swap to gengar when that pokemon is out. beside, the argument is not about whether it is easy to take out or not. we have already established that it can be taken out fairly easily in the right situations, but like i said in my post, that can be applied to every single pokemon in the game. the argument is about whether or not this pokemon, as is, is too powerful to continue being allowed in OU. the answer is yes. it can counter pretty much everything in the game, and has the ability to strike when and where it wants. no other pokemon is as versatile, or as effective at revenge killing, as mega gengar, and the fact that is has no counter, only checks, just adds to this fact.
 
After reading everything in this thread, I've made up my mind on Mega Gengar. I say we should give it a suspect test rather than ban it. This probably seems a little odd for me to say, considering I've been pro-ban for this whole thread, but hear me out. All we've really been doing this whole thread is theorymon, while the ladder experience most people have had probably isn't a very good representation of Mega Gengar's potential. A suspect test would encourage many people to go try out Mega Gengar, along with its best sets, in order to gain a more accurate idea of wether or not it really deserves the ban hammer. As it stands, the few people on the ladder who do use Mega Gengar generally don't use him properly or aren't very skilled. To ban a Pokémon based on such a small demographic from a still brand new and evolving metagame would be premature. If Mega Gengar does get quick banned, then we should give it a suspect test at a later date once the metagame has settled down. Really, I could honestly care less wether or not Gengarite gets banned, as long as we at least give it a decent chance with a suspect test.
 
I was initially convinced that Mega Gengar shouldn't be banned, but the arguments in this thread have convinced me that it deserves a suspect test. I'm reluctant to support a quick ban for reasons that jas61292 already said. On the other hand I'm fairly sure that a suspect test would lead to its ban anyway, which raises the question of, why should we waste our time prolonging the inevitable and keeping an obviously broken Pokemon in OU even longer? Well after the PR disaster that was the Blaziken/Deoxys-N ban I guess I'm hesitant to see another quick ban so soon, this thread is a step in the right direction though.

I do think this thread is close to running its course though, the poll may lean one way but the quality of the arguments here certainly don't reflect that outcome.
 
les do dis shit

Mons Mega Gengar can succesfully trap and kill:

- chesnaught: ohko by sludge WAVE. ITS WAVE. GOD DAM
- delphox: ohko by shadow ball, delphox can win if scarf AND locked in psychic. scarf seen in 20% of delphox so chances of beating mega gengar are under 15%~
- greninja: ohko by focus blast / thunderbolt
- talonflame: ive seen people say talonflame counters mega gengar which is funny, considering that cb talonflame has to be locked on brave bird in order to be able to win vs 0/0 mega gengar. if its sharp beak talonflame, it will never ohko 60 hp gengar, while gengar ohkos back with shadow ball + recoil or thunderbolt. also cb talonflame cant ohko max hp, some def mega gengar. sooo yea.
- pyroar: focus blast ohko
- gogoat: sludge bomb
- aromatisse: ohkod by sludge bomb
- barbaracle: thunderbolt / focus blast
- heliolisk: focus blast
- tyrantrum: ohko by focus blast, can win with scarf AND jolly max speed, but only 15% of tyrantrums are scarved and only 15%~ have jolly as their nature.
- aurorus: focus blast
- sylveon: ohkod by sludge bomb if 0/0, if not, cant do anything to gengar
- hawlucha: ohko by thunderbolt, 2hko with shadow ball and cant do much in return
- avalugg: focus blast
- noivern: can ohko with LO draco meteor, but if its sub gengar hes fucked. shadow ball 2hkos. also 2hkod by shadow ball
- blissey: loses to perish trap
- breloom: ohko by sludge bomb
- celebi: sludge bomb or shadow ball
- cloyster: anythin
- dugtrio: rip
- espeon: rip
- ferrothorn: survives focus blast, buuut cant ohko with gyro ball
- forretress: 2hko with focus blast, gyro ball dont ko
- gastrodon: perish song set takes care of it
- gyarados: ohko by thunderbolt
- heatran: doesnt ohko and is ohkod or 2hkod
- hydreigon: ohkod by focus blast. only 20% have scarf, and it has to be locked into dark pulse to ko.
- infernape: ko by shadow ball
- jirachi: traps and ohkos
- keldeo: tbolt and cant ohko unless life orb
- kyurem-b: focus blast
- latias: ohko by shadow ball
- latios: same
- lucario: ohko by focus blast
- magnezone: read above
- mamoswine: same
- metagross: shadow ball
- reuniclus: ohkod
- skarmory: tbolt
- heracross: cant do shit even if scarved
- rotom-w: cant ohko and gets 2hkod, only wins if scarved.
- starmie: ohko by shadow ball
- tentacruel: tbolt
- terrakion: focus blast, can only win with scarved stone edge.
- thundurus: only wins if it has LO, otherwise 2hkod / ohkod with SR
- tornadus: cant ohko
- tyranitar: focus blast, cant outspeed even with scarf
- vaporeon: cant do shit
- venusaur: cant touch gengar
- excadrill: ohkod by focus blast
- mega charizard x: ohkod by tbolt
- mega charizard y: same
- mega blastoise: you too
- mega kangaskhan: focus blast
- mega gyarados: tbolt
- mega houndoom: focus blast
- mega ttar: focus blast
- mega gardevoir: shadow ball
- mega aggron: focus blast
- mega medicham: shadow ball
- mega lucario: focus blast
- mega abomasnow: focus blast


Mons that can beat Mega Gengar when trapped or are 50/50s:

- goodra: isnt 2hkod and can 2hko back, but loses to the perish song trap set. 50/50 pretty much
- malamar: wins all the time, whether scarf or not, as it can survive a hit from mega gengar.
- klefki: foul play 2hkos but mega gengar 2hkos first. however it can twave then foul play, sacrificing its own life to cripple gengar. still, dies but w/e crippling gengar is enuff.
- mega alakazam: outspeeds and ohkos
- conkeldurr: can survive a hit and ohko
- donphan: can survive a hit and ohko
- dragonite: can survive a hit and ohko
- garchomp: usually has scarf so outspeeds and kos, can also take a hit
- gliscor: survives and ohkos
- haxorus: can take a hit and kill, can outspeed with scarf
- hippowdon: can take a hit and ohko
- jolteon: 50/50
- landorus: can survive and ohko
- salamence: takes a hit or outspeeds with scarf
- scizor: woo scizor, bullet punch 2hko or pursuit
- toxicroak: wins with sucker punch
- volcarona: can take a hit, set up, and KO
- mega absol: can ohko with sucker punch
- mega aero: outspeeds
- mega scizor: like scizor
- mega garchomp: like normal
- mega manectric: outspeeds and isnt ohkod
- mega mawile: ohko and survives shadow ball
- mega heracross: rock blast wins
- mega ampharos: survives + ohkos


Ghosts:

- chandelure: has to be timid and with scarf (under 20% run scarf, and under 30% are timid) and locked into shadow ball / fire blast to win. then again its a ghost so it cant be trapped anyways.
- aegislash: ohkod by mega gengar but cant be trapped so at least hes got that going for him.
- trevenant: cant be trapped but ohkod anyways
- gengar: ohko
- jellicent: ohko
- mega banette: shadow sneak doesnt freaking ko LOL

------

so do you want to play a metagame in which theres a pokemon that can take care of 67 / 98 used mons WITHOUT HAVING TO THINK. over two thirds. This isnt fucking theorymon yo, this is what will happen when a good player has a mega gengar on his team due to shadow tag. you cant switch out, you fucked up the moment you sent in any of those 67 mons and i got mega gengar in / will use him to revenge kill. again, no thinking involved. make it 73 / 98 if you count the 1v1s it wins against ghosts even though it cannot trap them.

cmon guys how the fuck can u think this guy is anywhere near OU. it ok, we can all go home now and ban mega gengar.

edit: apparently im an old (BAN ME PLEASE), theres some new shit called sludge wave that is betta than sludge bomb so imagine i said wave instead of bomb kthnx.
I see you edited Greninja and Chesnaught but you might as well edit Mega Charx as well. Lists like these can be published with even more impressive numbers with other megas such as Kangaskhan but we are largely talking about Gengars support abilities here.

It seems to me that a lot of players are rubbishing the PS ladder and then accuse people of not using it correctly or theormoning, which is a strange attack seeing how PO has banned it and there are no high level tournaments running atm for Gen 6 and PerishStalling, a set that has only garnered popularity in like the last week isn't even available in WiFi battle. Make no mistake, a large percentage of people from both sides are indeed engaging in theorymoning and nothing more so let's not go on finger pointing and laughing at the only place where it can be tested and used.

Also, a lot of these arguments are sounding like the ones made during Keldeo's suspect test, ie. Keldeo has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter.

Oh I get it. People are in a state of panic since they can't slap on Drizzletoad or droughtfox anymore and net an easy win after eliminating the opponent's weather user. People want this gen to be about keeping Mega Gengar alive at all costs so that he can eliminate the threats to your team and then allow a landslide sweep.
No, people don't want a quick ban on something that takes team building and skill to use, not until the metagame has matured enough to start proper suspect tests and the impact on the meta game is clear.
 

TROP

DRUDDIGON SHOULD BE BANNED
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I was initially convinced that Mega Gengar shouldn't be banned, but the arguments in this thread have convinced me that it deserves a suspect test. I'm reluctant to support a quick ban for reasons that jas61292 already said. On the other hand I'm fairly sure that a suspect test would lead to its ban anyway, which raises the question of, why should we waste our time prolonging the inevitable and keeping an obviously broken Pokemon in OU even longer? Well after the PR disaster that was the Blaziken/Deoxys-N ban I guess I'm hesitant to see another quick ban so soon, this thread is a step in the right direction though.
I would say that a Gengarite quick ban would not be close to what happened with the Deoxys and Blaziken quickban, because at least this time the masses had their chance to "prove" the mon is balanced or not before the council decided what to do with the mon/item.

No, people don't want a quick ban on something that takes team building and skill to use
I seriously hope this is a joke.
 
I would say that a Gengarite quick ban would not be close to what happened with the Deoxys and Blaziken quickban, because at least this time the masses had their chance to "prove" the mon is balanced or not before the council decided what to do with the mon/item.


I seriously hope this is a joke.
Do you seriously want me to scan the entire thread and start posting quotes from pro-banners who say the only people who don't complain about MGengar are ones who have faced skill-less players or that in the hands of skilled players this thing is unstoppable?
 

TROP

DRUDDIGON SHOULD BE BANNED
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Do you seriously want me to scan the entire thread and start posting quotes from pro-banners who say the only people who don't complain about MGengar are ones who have faced skill-less players are that in the hands of skilled players this thing is unstoppable?
But that is what is happening here...for the ones that don't know how broken this thing in the hands of a good player really is.
 
I see you edited Greninja and Chesnaught but you might as well edit Mega Charx as well. Lists like these can be published with even more impressive numbers with other megas such as Kangaskhan but we are largely talking about Gengars support abilities here.
Please do it, post a list of any other mega being able to completely shut down that amount of pokemons with no counterplay whatsoever. Also I editted Chesnaught bcuz i didnt know he was the all american mon and resisted bombs. But guess what, I editted it and ends up theres a stronger attack to hit Chesnaught with so yeah suck that up. Greninja wasnt editted so i got no idea what youre talking about.

Also about Keldeo, guess what, Keldeo didnt make it so you couldnt switch. I assure you if it did he would have been banned, but thats besides the point. out of all of those matchups i posted, theres an immense amount of: Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave. If you wanna remove the mons that lose to the perish song set, do it, you still get a number like 65 / 99 mons fucked by these 4 moves. All perish song set and destiny bond and what not do is give Gengar EVEN MORE options to fuck shit up.
 
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While I don't believe that the Gengarite deserves I quick ban, I think some posters are still taking it way more lightly than it actually is. I feel like people who play more offensively (which seems to be the case based on the replies in this thread though I haven't read the whole thread) has an easier time dealing with it. I prefer more defensive teams and playstyles, and I think Mgengar is a much bigger threat to it.

I think Gengar can work well in conjunction with its fellow Shadow Tagger, Wobbuffet. Especially the sub + disable set. I'm not sure if the set that I fought had Perish Song but just those two moves along with wobbuffet was a huge pain to deal with for my stall team. Let Wobbuffet come in, encore a non-damaging, switch in Mgengar to disable and then you're forced to struggle to death. Now imagining that set with Perish Song, it could take out my whole team if I didn't carry a phasing move.
 
les do dis shit

Mons Mega Gengar can succesfully trap and kill:
- talonflame: ive seen people say talonflame counters mega gengar which is funny, considering that cb talonflame has to be locked on brave bird in order to be able to win vs 0/0 mega gengar. if its sharp beak talonflame, it will never ohko 60 hp gengar, while gengar ohkos back with shadow ball + recoil or thunderbolt. also cb talonflame cant ohko max hp, some def mega gengar. sooo yea.
And in what can be locked if not brave bird? flare blitz?
Brave bird is the best and usually most common move a cb can be locked on, so I think you should put talon in the 50/50.
Also don't give Dugtrio away so easily, most of the time it carries a focus sash, so it can earthquake the first turn and sucker punch the next.

Last thing, you're considering all the set at the same time, a Mengar carrying tbolt cannot at the same time perish-trap something.

Still, your number are impressing.
 
Any one Gengar cannot counter/kill the same number of Pokemon you mentioned unless it has 8 moveslots.

Of course that still makes it broken because it actually ABUSES its weakness of not having Shadow Tag from turn 1. The opponent has to guess which 4 moves you'll be playing.
Even so I'm unimpressed by what a single Gengar can do, even though what Gengar's options are as a whole is huge.
 
what most of the comments on reyscarface's post are ignoring, is that it can have any 4 of the moves listed there. that was just showing what it can potentially cover, and the fact that it has so many coverage options makes it such a threat. you never know what set its going to be packing until it starts attacking, and even then you still don't know. when a pokemon has that many options, and has no counter, it's a problem.
 
Hi Smogon.

I think, like many of the XY OU meta players in Pokemon Showdown, that Mega Gengar is one of the 5 most dangerous and abusive Mega evolutions in game. Let's going part by part:

1. Gengarite is an object that means that Gengar is no the one banned, so, you can play Gengar with the Gengarite like, for example, the Life Orb or Disable set. Gengar is a good pokemon with and without the Gengarite, that means that you can play the original Gengar with his three immunities and later, mega evolve into the that fucking monster. Also, you can trick yout opponent taking a substitude in a predicted change and then mega evolve if you need to trap your opponent pokemon or change out if you think that you can't beat it, reserving the Mega for later.

Also, Behind the substitude a gengar and Mega gengar can 2HKO a Tyranitar (maybe the best "counter") with "Focus" Blast, so you can hit the first Focus to that tyranitar and then, without the substitute, mega evolve and kill it with the same or another move, for example, Destiny Bond if you don't belive in hax.

2. Substitute or Taunt + Destiny Bond, with this, Mega Ganger can trap and kill any wall in the game. Someone will say: "Jellicent and Chansey no." No? Jellicent is out in one or two Shadow Ball, and Chansey is out when is taunted and the "Focusblasted" to the dead.

3. Speed + High, VERY High Spatk: That means that sweeping is something of kids for Mega Gengar and Gengar because they have STABS in two very good typing, considering that poison is now a very good typing because Fairies. Gengar and Mega Gengar aslo have a very good Movepool to make changes in order to create your deathly Mega Gengar.

4. Shadow Trap + 2 inmunities = FUCK YOU Choice band terrakion! The thing is: CB Terrakion eliminates your pokemon with a Close combat, then you take out Mega Gengar. This terrakion can't do anything but cry in the beatiful substitute that mega gengar will put in his bull face before killing him with Shadow Ball. The same thing is with pokemon like CB snorlax locked in return and others normal and fighting choice users.

What I'm saying is Mega Gengar can Revenge Kill every Pokemon locked in a Fighting or normal move. Now, check how many fighting pokemon are choice users and Sorprise!!

I don't know if the users will understand all i'm saying but, in brief, the reason of the banned of Mega Gengar is not his sheer power or his speed, the reason is that gengar with the Gengarite can trick the oponent and played well is broker, because the best of all of this is the versatility of Gengar and Mega gengar united.

Chao.
 
I would say that a Gengarite quick ban would not be close to what happened with the Deoxys and Blaziken quickban, because at least this time the masses had their chance to "prove" the mon is balanced or not before the council decided what to do with the mon/item.
Oh I agree completely, it was the lack of any public discourse whatsoever prior to that quick ban that was problematic, but that's neither here nor there.

And to be clear, even though this has already been discussed: a shitty ladder does not make a Pokemon less broken. People should be discussing Mega Gengar's innate qualities that may or may not make it broken (Great SpA/Spd, average defenses, huge move pool, Shadow Tag), not using their ladder experience with user #227 to prove that it's broken. Personal experience is useful to gain insight on an issue, but should not be used as your reasoning.
 
Do you seriously want me to scan the entire thread and start posting quotes from pro-banners who say the only people who don't complain about MGengar are ones who have faced skill-less players or that in the hands of skilled players this thing is unstoppable?
No, we say that the people who don't complain about Mega Gengar are people who don't realize what its role is.

Edit: Oh my god, one tournament person said it wasn't broken, it must not be broken!
 
But that is what is happening here...for the ones that don't know how broken this thing in the hands of a good player really is.
So you are in the habit of complaining about posts you have no problems with, that's great news.

Please do it, I wanna see your holy self post a list of any other mega being able to completely shut down that amount of pokemons with no counterplay whatsoever. Also I editted Chesnaught bcuz i didnt know he was the all american mon and resisted bombs. But guess what, I editted it and ends up theres a stronger attack to hit Chesnaught with so yeah suck that up. Greninja wasnt editted so i got no idea what youre talking about.

Also about Keldeo, guess what, Keldeo didnt make it so you couldnt switch. I assure you if it did he would have been banned, but thats besides the point. One thing I want you to try really hard to understand which I know will be hard for you, but do try, is that out of all of those matchups i posted, theres an immense amount of: Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave. If you wanna remove the mons that lose to the perish song set, do it, you still get a number like 65 / 99 mons fucked by these 4 moves. All perish song set and destiny bond and what not do is give Gengar EVEN MORE options to fuck shit up.
When you edit out these parts we can begin arguing again.

========

I just want to make an appeal to the OU Council to temporarily delay the first designated OU suspect test, Deo-S according to one of the council members and instead give that first test to MGengar. The impressions on him are changing very fast and the whole metagame is in the mode of discovery. It is only 2 weeks ago or so that in the IRC a top player who shall not be named said that if anyone thinks PerishStalling Gengar is the best set of the megapokemon then they are stupid. At the very least the suspect test will force players to use it or see it used against them and ladder properly and then vote with a clear conscious and full understanding, and if the poll numbers are any indication what so ever, a clear conscious is something we need.
 
Reyscarface's list isn't even accurate, it's much worse than that because he forgot HP Ice, which is a fantastic option. Of course Gengar can't run every move, but when your Shadow Ball is pretty much only resisted by TTar, it's easy to make a moveset that can snipe every single Pokémon that gives you trouble.

Is your team based around a Lucario sweep? Run Sub, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt and HP Ice, and suddenly Gengar can trap and OHKO Skarmory, Gyarados, Gliscor, Landorus, Slowbro, Celebi, Dragonite, etc... Nearly every Lucario counter and check, just to give one example. Substitute guarantees you a free Mega Evolution even if your opponent has a Tyranitar (and after your job is done, a TTar revenge is a free set-up for Lucario).
SD Talonflame? That's something easy to check that every teams has a hard counter for, right? Well look, TTar, Heatran, Rotom, Gliscor, Jellicent, Dragonite and Slowbro all die to Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/HP Ice, and that's just three moves!

Properly using Mega Gengar is like a DragMag strategy that lets you selectively remove pretty much whatever you want and there's nothing your opponent can do to stop it.
 
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