Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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Adamant Zoroark

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DW OU was the third-most played ladder on Smogon PO at its peak. It had a pretty big playerbase. It had analyses going on the site.

The purpose of bringing up Chandelure is to give context. The whole 'oh shit' factor Chandelure had on players fearing its OU release as well as some (a limited amount of) people who had played DW does not compare to Mega Gengar, which has nowhere close to the potency and dominance of Chandelure as a Pokemon.

These comparisons simply outline the limitations of Mega Gengar.
Oh, you wanna play that game then?

Mega Gengar doesn't need a Choice Scarf to function. ST Chandelure did, as otherwise it was simply too slow and not bulky enough. I'd argue that Mega Gengar is more potent than ST Chandelure ever was, especially with things like Destiny Bond and (post-Bank) Perish Song in its movepool that let it do more than ST Lure ever could, and, once again, not needing a Choice Scarf to do its job. The fact that ST 'Lure was practically forced into running Scarf (I know other sets existed but they were nowhere near as effective) really limited its potential, while Mega Gengar doesn't need to worry about that.

Then what set are you using? Gengar cannot have Shadow Ball/Taunt/Pain Split/Disable/Substitute/Focus Blast/Perish Song/Destiny Bond all on the same set. It's versatile, I recognize it, but by forgoing any of these moves Gengar is left open to one or more kinds of check.
Four moveslot syndrome doesn't make anything not good.
 
Gets stopped by Protect and Disable

Sticky Web
Defog, Rapid Spin. Even if SW is on the field, Mega Gengar still outspeeds Adamant Dragonite and other base 80s, as another user pointed out.

Aqua Jet
Bullet Punch
Priority Taunt
Priority TWave / Priority Confusion
...switch out???

Speed Boost
Scolipede's STABs don't do much against Mega Gengar, and it is important to note that if Mega Gengar uses Perish Song on Scolipede, the Scolipede BP recipient will still be affected by Perish Song.

Crunch + anyone bulky
Night Slash + choice scarf (or someone tanky like Drapion)
Earthquake on anyone with sturdy (supposing you have rapid spin and/or prevent hazards)
Skill Link plus anything mh
...switch out???

Parental Bond plus anything
Disable

Zen Headbutt
Psyshock
...switch out???

This just in, Water Absorb Quagsire stops IB-less Kyogre. Kyogre for OU

Baton Pass
Taunt stops that cold.

Volt Switch
U-Turn
Protect and Disable

Ghost pokemon (They aren't trapped by Shadow Tag)
This may blow your mind, but Mega Gengar is probably going to switch out.

Entrainment / Skillswap / Worryseed / Simple Beam
I really hope this is a joke. If you're running this shit on your team, you've got bigger problems than just Mega Gengar

Infiltrator to break subs
Crobat and Noivern are defensive liabilities and don't have noteworthy offense

Whirlwind
Roar
Taunt on the Perish-trapping set

Stealth Rocks / Spikes (punishes Gengar constantly switching around)
Mega Gengar will not need eight switch-ins to take out a single important wall.

Shadow Sneak
Quick Attack + Aerialte (aka Pinsir)
Switch

Sucker Punch if Gengar tries anything not Perish Song or Substitue or Protect
So what you're saying is that Sucker Punch works if the Mega Gengar user is a dumbass.

If you don't have at least 2-3 of these moves on your team, it's your fault, not the 'metagame's'. Furthermore, if you're letting Gengar come in, and you aren't predicting a switch, again, that's your fault. Perish Song Gengar that's transformed is a pretty good revenge killer, but you could say the same about Arena Trap Dugtrio.
Prediction involves both skill and luck, and it is for this reason that it is damn near impossible to predict correctly every single time against a good player. Unless you have five or six members of your team capable of checking it, Mega Gengar needs only two correct predictions (one for the initial transformation, and another to safely get him in after that) to rip a team open, and is capable of killing many more things than flipping Dugtrio, who even in his best gen (Adv) cannot OHKO either of the two premiere walls. In contrast, Mega Gengar can trap Skarmory and Blissey (just to name a few examples) easily with Taunt, Sub, Protect, and Perish Song.
 
How your personal team fares against a potentially broken Pokémon is absolutely irrelevant to whether the Pokémon is broken or not. Sure, your team is prepared for Perish Trap Mega Gengar. Should we all run your team just to neutralize Mega Gengar? No, that's ridiculous.

Also, the Gengar spread I posted above takes 20.4 - 24.1% from an uninvested Goodra Dragon Tail, which fails to break its Substitute :)
It's an example of some Pokemon that can send off Mega Gengar without even trying, often for reasons as simple as "is bulky" or "hits hard". If you're interested in giving examples of things that don't have the option of fending off the ghost, feel free; I think it's obvious that my random team from a different metagame with no specific preparations is far from the extent of the available countermeasures. To be sure, there will be some teams that aren't prepared for Mega Gengar at all. And who's to say that this lack of preparations is anything other than a glaring oversight on the part of its teambuilder?
 
I'm hesitant to vote for a ban when it only has one broken set. Outside of perish trapping, it is very counterable.
I'm not one to normally be a Nazi about terms, but under a technical meaning of the word "Counter", basically anything with Shadow Tag is uncounterable by the strictest definition of the word. To be a counter, you have to be able to switch in, be able to survive anything, and easily retaliate in some way, whether OHKOing, phazing, etc. Since nothing can switch in unless there is a special requirement like U-Turn or Volt Switch, the Ghostly Menace has no true counter.

The "uncounterable fact" may make Mega Gengar seem broken, but remember: Dragonite and Hydreigon had no true counters in OU. Wobbuffet and Gothitelle roamed in OU and they have the same ability. Looking back, Mega Gengar is worth a Suspect Test, but not a Quick Ban
 

TROP

DRUDDIGON SHOULD BE BANNED
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Perish Song is not what makes Mega Gengar broken, that is just the icing on the cake. Not needing to be Choice Locked to be used it to is maximum potential(like Goth and DW chandelure), barely need to predict or take a hit(Wobb and Wynaut), Destiny Bond to bring an opponent down with him, stupidly high special attack, amazing speed, actually good bulk(almost on par with our favorite washing machine), solid typing and immunities before and post mega, and able to trap most of the good offensive and defensive mons are the things that make it broken.


A simple Dbond+3 attacks or Dbond+taunt+2 attack is still enough to allow Gengar to trap and bring down at least 2 mons(assuming the user is not terrible) at worst.

Switching on the turn Gengar is mega evolving to a counter is not a valid reason to justify this thing staying in Ou. Both Scizor and Tyranitar can only take 2 hits from this thing, and in Scizor's case, it can't ohko after Gengar mega evolves. And this is ignoring Gengar being paired with things like Talonflame and Latios who will really love one of /both of them being out of the game.
 
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I looked at the stats and move pool, and I can't quite decide. If it get's the chance to volt-switch or u-turn in on a choice locked normal or fighting move, it can deal out massive damage against an opponent that can't escape. Also, if it uses the shadow tag+perish song set it becomes able to wall them for two turns, before switching out on the third to negate perish song's effect on itself. This creates a big threat, when not against another shadow tagger. On the other hand, if somehow a counter for this is devised, it suddenly becomes a great deal weaker.
 
Hm... my genuine opinion is that it should be banned. There is no real counter to that perish trap set. Wobbuffet in 4th gen was banned for a similiar reason, being able to trap and eliminate a key threat with little to no effort. All it needs to do is take out a key pokemon. Sub+protect already gives you 2 free turns of Perish song. And once it's done its job, your opponent automatically has to face the wrath of whatever pokemon on your team doesnt have a counter anymore. It's way too good at doing what it does.
 
At this point most arguments have already been made, I'll just add I fully agree with the reservations expressed by a few to quickban so early into the metagame and before Pokebank.

Essentially, the only set which seems realistically up for discussion with valid arguments is the perish trapper, something unreleased as of yet. To jump on the theorymon bandwagon (even in pokebank ou it's not nearly the most used set) seems a bit premature.

Also, what has been brought up surprisingly little is the whole concept of mega evolution in itself being a strong argument to keep Gengar in OU for now. By definition, all mega evolutions compete for one teamslot, and he's by far not the most threatening of the bunch. Item loss is a key factor as well. OU for me until a couple of months after Pokebank we can have actual data to discuss.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Why are we arguing over whether or not quick ban it, anyway? In a month it'll have access to Perish Song and be banned anyway, so why not just ban it now and get it over with?
 

Colonel M

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Oh, you wanna play that game then?

Mega Gengar doesn't need a Choice Scarf to function. ST Chandelure did, as otherwise it was simply too slow and not bulky enough. I'd argue that Mega Gengar is more potent than ST Chandelure ever was, especially with things like Destiny Bond and (post-Bank) Perish Song in its movepool that let it do more than ST Lure ever could, and, once again, not needing a Choice Scarf to do its job. The fact that ST 'Lure was practically forced into running Scarf (I know other sets existed but they were nowhere near as effective) really limited its potential, while Mega Gengar doesn't need to worry about that.
I've seen many sets that were successful without the need of a Choice Scarf. Specs does fine, and I've seen Substitute + Calm Mind work very well.

I don't get how you're so adamant about comparing the two. There are obviously differences, but they both magnify what a Pokemon with a strong movepool, good typing, tolerable-to-great stats, and Shadow Tag can really do. Shadow Tag Chandelure was a huge threat in Dreamworld, and Mega Gengar is of no exception. They both require some competency of being able to be played, though, as you will see many users that are not intelligent enough to use either of those Pokemon (whether legal or not) to its full potential. The proof is those that state that Mega Gengar has counters and think that checks can suddenly allow Mega Gengar to not wreak havoc.

The crucial point of using Shadow Tag to eliminate key threats are what make Chandelure with Shadow Tag and Mega Gengar similar. They both achieved roughly the same purposes (albeit in different methods) to aid the team.
 

Shroomisaur

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IYou cannot counter Mega Gengar. Period. Don't even try to say "BUT" nor "WELL" nor even "UHHH". Countering Mega Gengar is like beating Superman 64 while being blindfolded.
This has to be the most convincing argument in the entire thread.

Anyway, it's disappointing to see the wrong arguments on both sides again today, but TropiOUs was right on the money. Gengar being "too weak" isn't the issue, and this shouldn't be about his Perish Song set either. It's about Shadow Tag. Trapping your opponent removes all ability to counter Megagar, and he's easier to bring in than most people seem to think. Once he's in MegaGar is basically guaranteed 2 kills of your choice per match.

Between its incredible power, speed, and typing, combined with the ability to support your team by revenging and trapping just about anything, Mega Gengar is worthy of the Uber Tire.
 
Gets stopped by Protect and Disable



Defog, Rapid Spin. Even if SW is on the field, Mega Gengar still outspeeds Adamant Dragonite and other base 80s, as another user pointed out.
Gengar doesn't get Defog and Rapid Spin. What's your point? I can just start listing things too that help MGengar beat your team, but so what?

...switch out???
So I forced you to switch, that's generally a good thing.

Scolipede's STABs don't do much against Mega Gengar, and it is important to note that if Mega Gengar uses Perish Song on Scolipede, the Scolipede BP recipient will still be affected by Perish Song.
Scolipede gets Earthquake...? And you can baton pass to a pokemon that could switch out, or baton pass a speedboost to some pokemon on your team that's already useless for the fight.

You can't disable a move that hasn't been used yet.

Anyway, I can go on.

So far, no one has presented any evidence that MGengar should actually be quick-banned. There's no numerical evidence, even in the current usage stats, that suggests he is too good. The counters to Gengar are numerous have existed now for many generations.
 

Colonel M

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Gengar doesn't get Defog and Rapid Spin. What's your point? I can just start listing things too that help MGengar beat your team, but so what?



So I forced you to switch, that's generally a good thing.



Scolipede gets Earthquake...? And you can baton pass to a pokemon that could switch out, or baton pass a speedboost to some pokemon on your team that's already useless for the fight.



You can't disable a move that hasn't been used yet.

Anyway, I can go on.

So far, no one has presented any evidence that MGengar should actually be quick-banned. There's no numerical evidence, even in the current usage stats, that suggests he is too good. The counters to Gengar are numerous have existed now for many generations.
Let's be blunt - your arguments are poor in general with proving that you can check Mega Gengar and faulting the player.

So if I, the player using Mega Gengar, Mega Evolves and kills off a Pokemon that I intended to kill off so that my threats like Talonflame or Aegislash can sweep... that suddenly becomes the opponent's fault?

The opponent has roughly a single turn to react with possible breathing space if I decide not to Mega Evolve. Naming off pointless things such as priority attacks and Sticky Web (a laughable entry hazard) only can do so much with "checking" Mega Gengar. The main point of not being able to downright counter its primary goal is what makes it a huge threat. You severely underestimate not only Mega Gengar's capabilities, but even its durability as was pointed out by users such as Arcticblast .
 
The main point of not being able to downright counter its primary goal is what makes it a huge threat.
Did you forget that, by definition of the word, you can't actually counter anything with Shadow Tag? The way you word your argument, you make it seem that Wobbuffet and Gothitelle are huge threats and should be Uber, as well as, to a lesser extent, Dugtrio.

In my eyes, Mega Gengar isn't worthy of a Quick Ban. Is there controversy around it? Sure there is, but the same could be said about other Pokemon before it like Keldeo. While it isn't Quick Ban worthy, it IS worthy of a Suspect Test.

*Looks* Why are there people joining today to lie about Mega Gengar? It's somewhat frail, but...it can survive Priority. I think people are making fake accounts, making them look real, and then trying to say stupid things. I may be Anti-Quick Ban, but I'm Pro-Suspect and can see both sides of the coin. To do THIS...is sad.
 

ginganinja

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Mega Gengar is incredibly frail, which may not mean much when it's breaking walls, but with the ubiquity of priority this generation, Mega Gengar gets OHKO'd by common pokemon like Talonflame, Aegislash and Scizor.
This is nice to know but not relevant. People, everyone within this thread is well aware that Gengar is frail, its base stats are everywhere. Furthermore everyone is well aware that Priority from certain pokemon can OHKO Gengar. This however, has limited impact on the Mega Gengar discussion as a whole, because Gengar will trap something, and then switch out when you bring in your Priority user, and then come in later to trap and kill something else. Even if your priority user killed Mega Gengar, I don't care, because Mega Gengar already achieved its goal in trapping what I wanted it to. Anything else is seriously just a bonus (and Destiny Bond can get me an extra KO if you are slower). I feel this needs to be spelled out again, since as a moderator, I am frustrated with this exact line. We know its frail, now prove to me how the priority arguement is even relevant to the discussion when Gengar already succeeded in its job before you could even bring in your priority user.
 

Lee

@ Thick Club
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Could somebody kindly post some logs of the Perish Trapper in action? I'm yet to have the pleasure.

Thanks!

P.S: shut up with Mengar is extremely frail arguments; that depends on how you EV it... see Arcticblast's post for instance. 60/80/95 isn't a million miles from 'Tomb's 50/108/108 or Rotom-A's 50/107/107.
 
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People really aren't getting this, it doesn't matter if gengar can take a hit when it doesn't need to, the whole point of him is to just snipe pokemon off and that is what it is great at, the perish song set sounds terrible compared to a more offensive spread which can tear holes in the majority of the meta, it has a very good move pool and beats a ton of the meta 1vs1 which is why it is so good at sniping stuff off, it doesn't matter if it can't eat a bb from talonflame since it will not stay in on talonflame..

-Shadow Ball
-Sludge Wave
-Focus Blast
-Taunt/Sub

that set alone is good enough to snipe important pokemon off immediately and dominate with other pokemon since the check has been trapped.
 
Given M-Gengar's capabilities as great as they are, I personally haven't been having too much problems with it. It's moreso the way you play as M-Gengar will definitely give someone who plays straightforward WAY more trouble than someone who scouts / double-switches for +1's in terms of moves and pays attention not only to what's going on, but the best possible action the opponent can take during that point of the battle. Make it Suspect if anything as a quick-ban seems ridiculous. There are a lot of monsters that 6th Gen introduced into the fray and quick banning M-Gengar may make some of the other ones stand out too much in terms of balance.

Don't ban the Gengarite.
 
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You people keep pointing it out and I wonder if people have figured it out: its not Mengar himself that makes him op. Its PerishTrap. I do not recommend banning Mengar, instead make a complex ban like drizzle+swift swim was back in gen 5. Ban PerishTrap and the problem is solved. Mengar becomes a lot less threatening. And what you pointed out ginganinja was the entire job any trapper ever. Its sent out to trap something and kill it most likely. After that its achieved its goal, and everything else is just a plus. Rather than banning Mengar as a whole, I suggest make a complex ban of PerishTrap. Everyone pretty much has pointed out that Mengar is a beast thanks to perishtrap, so I don't know why people are so up in arms about Mengar. This is the conclusion I have come to, viewing what everyone has said and looking at the way Mengar has been used. Without perishtrap, it cannot kill the things that wall it. And no, you cannot say you can't see a Mengar coming a mile away. Usually if people are running a mega pokemon in theyr team, its obvious which one it is. If you don't see any of the other pokemans that are megas and the team has a gengar, The chances are pretty high that its a mengar...
 
You people keep pointing it out and I wonder if people have figured it out: its not Mengar himself that makes him op. Its PerishTrap. I do not recommend banning Mengar, instead make a complex ban like drizzle+swift swim was back in gen 5. Ban PerishTrap and the problem is solved. Mengar becomes a lot less threatening. And what you pointed out ginganinja was the entire job any trapper ever. Its sent out to trap something and kill it most likely. After that its achieved its goal, and everything else is just a plus. Rather than banning Mengar as a whole, I suggest make a complex ban of PerishTrap. Everyone pretty much has pointed out that Mengar is a beast thanks to perishtrap, so I don't know why people are so up in arms about Mengar. This is the conclusion I have come to, viewing what everyone has said and looking at the way Mengar has been used. Without perishtrap, it cannot kill the things that wall it.
And people keep counter quoting, Smogon does not do Complex bans unless it affects multiple mons. Drizzle + Swift Swim WAS something that affected multiple mons, well actually whole teams. PerishTrap is ONLY able to be run on MGengar, which is why it does not warrant a complex ban.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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You people keep pointing it out and I wonder if people have figured it out: its not Mengar himself that makes him op. Its PerishTrap. I do not recommend banning Mengar, instead make a complex ban like drizzle+swift swim was back in gen 5. Ban PerishTrap and the problem is solved. Mengar becomes a lot less threatening. And what you pointed out ginganinja was the entire job any trapper ever. Its sent out to trap something and kill it most likely. After that its achieved its goal, and everything else is just a plus. Rather than banning Mengar as a whole, I suggest make a complex ban of PerishTrap. Everyone pretty much has pointed out that Mengar is a beast thanks to perishtrap, so I don't know why people are so up in arms about Mengar. This is the conclusion I have come to, viewing what everyone has said and looking at the way Mengar has been used. Without perishtrap, it cannot kill the things that wall it.
Mega Gengar is the only Pokemon that gets Shadow Tag + Perish Song in Pokebank? This has been pointed out multiple times: A complex ban is illogical in this case because it only affects one Pokemon. Seriously people, stop bringing this up. It's ridiculous.
 

Colonel M

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Did you forget that, by definition of the word, you can't actually counter anything with Shadow Tag? The way you word your argument, you make it seem that Wobbuffet and Gothitelle are huge threats and should be Uber, as well as, to a lesser extent, Dugtrio.
I believe I actually know that I can't counter anything with Shadow Tag.

Also, I am not implying that Shadow Tag Wobbuffet and Gothitelle are Uber. Let's look at some of the posts I've made earlier, in particular this quote:
There are obviously differences, but they both magnify what a Pokemon with a strong movepool, good typing, tolerable-to-great stats, and Shadow Tag can really do.
If we look, Wobbuffet does not have a stellar movepool and Psychic-typing overall is questionable.

But if we want to relate, Shadow Tag alone has made Wobbuffet Uber in two generations. It only escaped the third due to the nerf to Encore (in my opinion). As for Gothitelle, the stats are the one thing that holds it back slightly. Still, Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are both good because they have no real counters to them either, as neither does Dugtrio and Magnezone. The difference between Shadow Tag users and those with Arena Trap and Magnet Pull is that the Shadow Tag users can be less selective with who they can trap.
 
I should not have put "watch this thread"...

You people keep pointing it out and I wonder if people have figured it out: its not Mengar himself that makes him op. Its PerishTrap. I do not recommend banning Mengar, instead make a complex ban like drizzle+swift swim was back in gen 5. Ban PerishTrap and the problem is solved. Mengar becomes a lot less threatening. And what you pointed out ginganinja was the entire job any trapper ever. Its sent out to trap something and kill it most likely. After that its achieved its goal, and everything else is just a plus. Rather than banning Mengar as a whole, I suggest make a complex ban of PerishTrap. Everyone pretty much has pointed out that Mengar is a beast thanks to perishtrap, so I don't know why people are so up in arms about Mengar. This is the conclusion I have come to, viewing what everyone has said and looking at the way Mengar has been used. Without perishtrap, it cannot kill the things that wall it. And no, you cannot say you can't see a Mengar coming a mile away. Usually if people are running a mega pokemon in theyr team, its obvious which one it is. If you don't see any of the other pokemans that are megas and the team has a gengar, The chances are pretty high that its a mengar...
It has already been stated that would result in a large combo of:
Genagr + Gengarite + Perish song + Destiny bond + Taunt.
Even for a complex ban, that is too much.

Anyway, Gengarite is broken not for its offensive capabilities, but for its support- not many other pokemon can remove a sweeper's counters as effectively so the sweeper can do it job.
 

Colonel M

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Nope, sorry to say this, but this Mega-Gar utterly fails at revenge-killing or defeating walls. How are you going to stop Ferrothorn Gyro Ball or Thunder Wave, for example? All out attacker sets on Mega-Gengar are sucky, a lot of people as me know that.
Perhaps it is not walls that are potentially the problem so much as possible sweepers that stand in the way.

Sets are customized partially to the player's needs and desires as well as the teams. I used a rather gimmicky Pokemon (Seismitoad) back in Generation 5 because I needed something that can sort of hamper Water-types while having access to Stealth Rock (the options are very small - like Ferrothorn for me). Not every team needs to completely shut down walls, and even this set can still hamper a couple of them.

Look at Celebi. You want to do a Mega Gyarados sweep. That Gengar does just fine taking out Celebi.
 
Mega Gengar is the only Pokemon that gets Shadow Tag + Perish Song in Pokebank? This has been pointed out multiple times: A complex ban is illogical in this case because it only affects one Pokemon. Seriously people, stop bringing this up. It's ridiculous.
I would argue that it's far from ridiculous. Just because Smogon does something doesn't mean that it's the correct way of approaching it. As you can see there are a large number of people here who feel like they don't want to lose something that they enjoy. Video games are based on their community and this one is obviously very split on this issue. I think it would be "ridiculous" to ignore the outcry of the people that support this game simply due to old policy. Just because something was correct and worked in the past doesn't mean that it will for forever. Times change and so do their issues / solutions. Perhaps the proposal of a complex ban isn't the best solution, but at least you can see that people are obviously taking the issue seriously enough to continue fighting for it. The point is that we need to find a solution other than banning him from OU.
 
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