So in order to 'check' MegaGar, you have to run a subpar pokemon that, at the worst, starts the battle 5v6 in your opponent's favor?
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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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So in order to 'check' MegaGar, you have to run a subpar pokemon that, at the worst, starts the battle 5v6 in your opponent's favor?
X5Dragon, I know you're probably pretty experienced with Sticky Web due to you being a primarily offensive player, but consider this: even at -1, Mega Gengar still outspeeds Adamant Dragonite, Gyarados, and other base ~80s. Not only that, but few walls are fast enough for Sticky Web to even apply to Mega Gengar's job being done. Being at -1 won't stop it from taking out, say, Heatran for a RP Genesect sweep (just an example, there are many others I could use). This makes me think that Sticky Web isn't really that good of a check to Mega Gengar in the context of what is being discussed here (eliminating select walls for other Pokemon to sweep).
I came into this thread with only my knowledge of M-Gar's sweeping sets, because that's what I'm used to seeing, and obviously those are pretty underwhelming. I think that also has to do with how, even a decent bit up XY OU's ladder, people aren't using M-Gar intelligently.
I didn't even think about Perish Song/Destiny Bond until now. With those moves (plus SubProtect) in his arsenal, I think M-Gar is unhealthy for the metagame.
See, a lot of anti-ban posters seem to think that he's balanced because he can't OHKO everything with his Shadow Ball and that other things can OHKO back. Well, yeah. That's true, but only a concern with what appears to be a wholly inferior set to the Perish Trapper set.
M-Gar limits variety because he outright takes out anything that's threatening to your team while forcing others to run Pokemon that specifically counter him. MegaZam and MegaDactyl are the only megas that outspeed him, and other megas can't really do much against him for the most part. Mons utilizing Sucker Punch to hit him can't, because he's never attacking. The only Pokemon with higher base speeds are Accelgor, Electrode and Ninjask, and disregarding how little those guys actually contribute to the team otherwise, do they even succeed in taking M-Gar out? Pokemon with boosts and scarves can sometimes also outspeed M-Gar, but who's leaving their Perish Trapper in on speed-boosted Pokemon? Or Choice Scarf users? Sticky Web has been brought up, but that basically means using Galvantula or Smeargle on your team. You shouldn't want a Pokemon in the metagame that limits your teambuilding creativity so much. Furthermore, how hard is it to actually get rid of Sticky Web? It's users can't keep coming in to put it up, and you just need to Rapid Spin or Defog once.
The problem I think exists with M-Gar basically boils down to him requiring far too specialized counters and checks, and even those don't keep him from taking out 1 or more of your team members. As much as I'd like to keep him in the metagame, the metagame's probably much better off without him.
I don't think I can really add anything else that hasn't been said in the thread already.
I didn't even think about Perish Song/Destiny Bond until now. With those moves (plus SubProtect) in his arsenal, I think M-Gar is unhealthy for the metagame.
See, a lot of anti-ban posters seem to think that he's balanced because he can't OHKO everything with his Shadow Ball and that other things can OHKO back. Well, yeah. That's true, but only a concern with what appears to be a wholly inferior set to the Perish Trapper set.
M-Gar limits variety because he outright takes out anything that's threatening to your team while forcing others to run Pokemon that specifically counter him. MegaZam and MegaDactyl are the only megas that outspeed him, and other megas can't really do much against him for the most part. Mons utilizing Sucker Punch to hit him can't, because he's never attacking. The only Pokemon with higher base speeds are Accelgor, Electrode and Ninjask, and disregarding how little those guys actually contribute to the team otherwise, do they even succeed in taking M-Gar out? Pokemon with boosts and scarves can sometimes also outspeed M-Gar, but who's leaving their Perish Trapper in on speed-boosted Pokemon? Or Choice Scarf users? Sticky Web has been brought up, but that basically means using Galvantula or Smeargle on your team. You shouldn't want a Pokemon in the metagame that limits your teambuilding creativity so much. Furthermore, how hard is it to actually get rid of Sticky Web? It's users can't keep coming in to put it up, and you just need to Rapid Spin or Defog once.
The problem I think exists with M-Gar basically boils down to him requiring far too specialized counters and checks, and even those don't keep him from taking out 1 or more of your team members. As much as I'd like to keep him in the metagame, the metagame's probably much better off without him.
I don't think I can really add anything else that hasn't been said in the thread already.
I've made a few teams on showdown. 2 of the 4 I've gotten over 2000+.
If overcentralizing means I have to think about that one pokemon everytime I make a new team, then no megagengar is not a pokemon I've ever had to worry or think about it specifically when making a team. The pokemon I've had to always make sure I had specific counters for hasn't been m-gengar or blaziken, but talonflame and m-kangaskhan.
I should note that I make offensive or balanced teams. Never defensive, so perhaps m-gengar only causes defensive teams problems.
If overcentralizing means I have to think about that one pokemon everytime I make a new team, then no megagengar is not a pokemon I've ever had to worry or think about it specifically when making a team. The pokemon I've had to always make sure I had specific counters for hasn't been m-gengar or blaziken, but talonflame and m-kangaskhan.
I should note that I make offensive or balanced teams. Never defensive, so perhaps m-gengar only causes defensive teams problems.
What valid points? All your posts mention that there are ways to beat him if everything works in your favor. What need is there for me to respond to such useless theorymon-ing?
As for the other "valid points" brought up in this thread, I have counter argued them, and no one has seemed to have an ACTUAL argument to the following statement: You took down Mega Gengar, big whoop, what do you do now that it's eliminated your counter for Pokemon X, which is the entire point of Mega Gengar in the first place?
Before you accuse me of being condescending, how about you actually prove points about Mega Gengar itself as to why it's not broken, instead of throwing hypothetical situations where if you have certain aspects on the field, you can beat it.
I apologize if I'm getting something wrong since I'm kind of new to this whole banning process. But wouldn't it be possible to hold a suspect test for Mega Gengar in post-Pokebank OU? The major threat in Gengar sets is mainly Shadow Tag + Perish Song which is only available after Pokebank, as any other set is commonly checked with priority, Assault Vest users, etc. As of now, the common consensus for pre-Pokebank OU is that Mega Gengar is not OP, but that the set is. I know that it's only a month, but we would effectively be satisfying most players by still keeping Mega Gengar, but getting rid of a broken threat as needed. Currently, I do not find Mega Gengar broken. However, after taking Mega Gengar ST + PS for a spin on Pokebank OU in PokemonShowdown, I found the set to be broken. Another solution would be to ban Mega Gengar on the Pokebank OU ladder, but to keep him in the current OU format. I just find it kind of confusing and it would be great if you or any other person could explain this to me. Thanks!
I seriously am laughing at the people that are saying "Mega Gengar has counters".
Man this is almost as bad as a certain other subject...
Nevermind.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty of business. You cannot counter Mega Gengar. Period. Don't even try to say "BUT" nor "WELL" nor even "UHHH". Countering Mega Gengar is like beating Superman 64 while being blindfolded. To even think about "countering" Mega Gengar:
- Almost everyone that can be trapped to it must carry Shed Shell
OR
- Anyone that thinks they can take Mega Gengar has to probably have Assault Vest and good Atk / SpA.
I don't know who has played against Shadow Tag Chandelure back in Dreamworld OU in Generation 5, but if anyone remembers how much of a potential threat it was overall, you will know that Mega Gengar is also no laughing matter. You were ballsy if you even tried to run any Choice attack with Fighting- and / or Normal-type attacks. The people that straw with "well Scizor OHKOes it with Bullet Punch." Horseshit. That's not countering it -- that's revenge killing it. And that's the only way to even think about beating Mega Gengar.
Let's think with our brains for a moment. When it comes to Mega Gengar, you have the ace of spades roughly 75% of the time. If you choose not to Mega Evolve you can potentially bait problematic Pokemon out and can trick people by staying as Regular Gengar as they foolishly Earthquake. Then as Mega Gengar you have the capability of trapping the majority of threats that can cause problems for Mega Gengar and its team.
I know someone brought up Talonflame, which is a decent example, but let's break it down to a Pokemon that everyone and their mother used in Generation 5 -- Salamence. Okay, let's think about potential Salamence counters...
...Well, locking into Outrage usually meant a Steel-type, and now Fairy-type, can potentially stomach the attack (or obviously can as Fairies) and threaten Salamence while it is locked on.
The solution, of course, is removing the threat. Trapping in general can accomplish this well. Scizor never likes Magnezone for example, and Skarmory without Shed Shell is a sitting duck to any trapper barring Arena Trap (I mean even Probopass is a threat to Skarmory just because of Magnet Pull). Then you have Heatran that really hates Dugtrio unless it also carries a Shed Shell, Shucca Berry, or Air Balloon, and many other things.
The point isn't about Mega Gengar sweeping. Sure, Mega Gengar is a fantastic attacking Pokemon, but the main threat is the utility it brings alone is threatening with the offensive prowess. The only con, per se, is that Mega Evolution requires a turn where you're slower and not guaranteed to trap an opponent. Even so, Gengar can still play this to its advantage.
Man this is almost as bad as a certain other subject...
Nevermind.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty of business. You cannot counter Mega Gengar. Period. Don't even try to say "BUT" nor "WELL" nor even "UHHH". Countering Mega Gengar is like beating Superman 64 while being blindfolded. To even think about "countering" Mega Gengar:
- Almost everyone that can be trapped to it must carry Shed Shell
OR
- Anyone that thinks they can take Mega Gengar has to probably have Assault Vest and good Atk / SpA.
I don't know who has played against Shadow Tag Chandelure back in Dreamworld OU in Generation 5, but if anyone remembers how much of a potential threat it was overall, you will know that Mega Gengar is also no laughing matter. You were ballsy if you even tried to run any Choice attack with Fighting- and / or Normal-type attacks. The people that straw with "well Scizor OHKOes it with Bullet Punch." Horseshit. That's not countering it -- that's revenge killing it. And that's the only way to even think about beating Mega Gengar.
Let's think with our brains for a moment. When it comes to Mega Gengar, you have the ace of spades roughly 75% of the time. If you choose not to Mega Evolve you can potentially bait problematic Pokemon out and can trick people by staying as Regular Gengar as they foolishly Earthquake. Then as Mega Gengar you have the capability of trapping the majority of threats that can cause problems for Mega Gengar and its team.
I know someone brought up Talonflame, which is a decent example, but let's break it down to a Pokemon that everyone and their mother used in Generation 5 -- Salamence. Okay, let's think about potential Salamence counters...
...Well, locking into Outrage usually meant a Steel-type, and now Fairy-type, can potentially stomach the attack (or obviously can as Fairies) and threaten Salamence while it is locked on.
The solution, of course, is removing the threat. Trapping in general can accomplish this well. Scizor never likes Magnezone for example, and Skarmory without Shed Shell is a sitting duck to any trapper barring Arena Trap (I mean even Probopass is a threat to Skarmory just because of Magnet Pull). Then you have Heatran that really hates Dugtrio unless it also carries a Shed Shell, Shucca Berry, or Air Balloon, and many other things.
The point isn't about Mega Gengar sweeping. Sure, Mega Gengar is a fantastic attacking Pokemon, but the main threat is the utility it brings alone is threatening with the offensive prowess. The only con, per se, is that Mega Evolution requires a turn where you're slower and not guaranteed to trap an opponent. Even so, Gengar can still play this to its advantage.
I apologize ahead of time, because with how long this thread is, I'd imagine this has already been mentioned, but I noticed early on discussion of the merits of volt switch/U-turn to get out of the Perish Song + Shadow Tag problem and wanted to point out an issue with this.
While this will sometimes work, there's an easy way for Mengar to deal with it.
Mega-Gengar: Shadow Tag
1. Protect
2. Disable
3. Perish Song
4. Substitute
See Gengar come in, no problem, switch into something that can hit with volt-switch/U-turn, maybe you even have multiple mons with one of these so you plan on switching between them for build up damage. Only as soon as you go for volt-switch, Protect to stop the switch, then disable on the next turn to prevent the switch. Locked in.
Point being, while moves like volt switch/U-turn sometimes let you get away, something like the aforementioned set will stop this from happening.
EDIT: I think we really need to move the conversation away from a power comparison between Mega Gengar and regular Gengar. This isn't the point, and it's never been the point, and people wouldn't be using Mega Gengar for the power anyway, they're using it for PerishTrapping.
While this will sometimes work, there's an easy way for Mengar to deal with it.
Mega-Gengar: Shadow Tag
1. Protect
2. Disable
3. Perish Song
4. Substitute
See Gengar come in, no problem, switch into something that can hit with volt-switch/U-turn, maybe you even have multiple mons with one of these so you plan on switching between them for build up damage. Only as soon as you go for volt-switch, Protect to stop the switch, then disable on the next turn to prevent the switch. Locked in.
Point being, while moves like volt switch/U-turn sometimes let you get away, something like the aforementioned set will stop this from happening.
EDIT: I think we really need to move the conversation away from a power comparison between Mega Gengar and regular Gengar. This isn't the point, and it's never been the point, and people wouldn't be using Mega Gengar for the power anyway, they're using it for PerishTrapping.
There are many checks to MGengar, some can be run together in a single team, Stick Web is just one of them. It's a suicide hazard layer, no different from other pokemon who perform a similar role.
You are right, it seems I was rather quick when I said it makes the set fail, rather it makes it harder to deal with switch in of the opponents checks for Gengar. Thanks for correcting me.
A list of moves that check Gengar w/ Perish Song
Pusuit
Sticky Web
Aqua Jet
Bullet Punch
Priority Taunt
Priority TWave / Priority Confusion
Speed Boost
Crunch + anyone bulky
Night Slash + choice scarf (or someone tanky like Drapion)
Earthquake on anyone with sturdy (supposing you have rapid spin and/or prevent hazards)
Skill Link plus anything mh
Parental Bond plus anything
Zen Headbutt
Psyshock
Baton Pass
Volt Switch
U-Turn
Ghost pokemon (They aren't trapped by Shadow Tag)
Entrainment / Skillswap / Worryseed / Simple Beam
Infiltrator to break subs
Whirlwind
Roar
Stealth Rocks / Spikes (punishes Gengar constantly switching around)
Shadow Sneak
Quick Attack + Aerialte (aka Pinsir)
Sucker Punch if Gengar tries anything not Perish Song or Substitue or Protect
If you don't have at least 2-3 of these moves on your team, it's your fault, not the 'metagame's'. Furthermore, if you're letting Gengar come in, and you aren't predicting a switch, again, that's your fault. Perish Song Gengar that's transformed is a pretty good revenge killer, but you could say the same about Arena Trap Dugtrio.
There's no doubt MGengar has his competitive niche, but it's nothing new from MegaPokemon or Gengar himself - Gengar has always been a strong threat. He's not something good to ban, it injures the metagame, it doesn't help it. There are a plethora of counters to Shadow Tag Gengar and claiming there are none is lunacy.
Pusuit
Sticky Web
Aqua Jet
Bullet Punch
Priority Taunt
Priority TWave / Priority Confusion
Speed Boost
Crunch + anyone bulky
Night Slash + choice scarf (or someone tanky like Drapion)
Earthquake on anyone with sturdy (supposing you have rapid spin and/or prevent hazards)
Skill Link plus anything mh
Parental Bond plus anything
Zen Headbutt
Psyshock
Baton Pass
Volt Switch
U-Turn
Ghost pokemon (They aren't trapped by Shadow Tag)
Entrainment / Skillswap / Worryseed / Simple Beam
Infiltrator to break subs
Whirlwind
Roar
Stealth Rocks / Spikes (punishes Gengar constantly switching around)
Shadow Sneak
Quick Attack + Aerialte (aka Pinsir)
Sucker Punch if Gengar tries anything not Perish Song or Substitue or Protect
If you don't have at least 2-3 of these moves on your team, it's your fault, not the 'metagame's'. Furthermore, if you're letting Gengar come in, and you aren't predicting a switch, again, that's your fault. Perish Song Gengar that's transformed is a pretty good revenge killer, but you could say the same about Arena Trap Dugtrio.
There's no doubt MGengar has his competitive niche, but it's nothing new from MegaPokemon or Gengar himself - Gengar has always been a strong threat. He's not something good to ban, it injures the metagame, it doesn't help it. There are a plethora of counters to Shadow Tag Gengar and claiming there are none is lunacy.
honestly, the fact that gengar doesn't have shadow tag right off the bat makes his perish song set that much better and even with protect, it might be worth it to use protect twice even against priority users, 50/50 chance to not take damage on the second turn and poof, there goes that revenge killer
the fact that it even after a bad read, it can still have a 50/50 shot of ruining the opponents team is absurd
the fact that it even after a bad read, it can still have a 50/50 shot of ruining the opponents team is absurd
This list is missing the point. It's not whether your have these things on your team, it's whether or not each individual Pokemon on your team has something to beat Gengar. Otherwise they will be trapped. I don't care if your Pinsir has Aerialate Quick Attack if I'm aiming to take down your walls. Not to mention that some walls that have tools to beat Perish Song don't have anything to deal with Gengar simply attacking them. For example, Skarmory has Whirlwind, but it's still taking a truckload from Shadow Ball and is now forced to Roost. Same with Hippowdon.
I enjoy the fact that people are saying Gengar "Isn't OP because it can't take an EQ or Crunch." Easy solution, don't switch it into something that has moves that it doesn't want to take. Gengar is meant to pick off opposing Pokemon that it can beat easily. It's not a Pokemon designed around picking random fights with everything. Shadow Tag is just an incredible ability that effectively makes any Pokemon Gengar is able to kill basically gone 100% of the time if you send it in. That's the beauty of Gengar. You don't have to worry about people switching. If Gengar can check or counter something it switches in on, it's dead, no questions asked.
For what it's worth, if you're running 252 HP / 252 Speed for the Perish Trapper you're running a suboptimal set. Here's the set and EV spread I've been using:
Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
This EV spread aims to do three things in particular:
- it gives Gengar an odd HP, giving it one extra Substitute
- it survives Adamant LO Talonflame's Brave Bird with enough HP left to make a Substitute*
- it outspeeds positive base 110s,* most importantly Lati@s and regular Gengar
*after Mega evolution
Incidentally, it also tanks an Adamant LO Shadow Sneak from Blade Form Aegislash, two CB Azumarill Aqua Jets, one Pursuit from Adamant Mega Tyranitar with enough HP left for a Sub and 2 or 3 turns of sand damage (depending on TTar's damage rolls), and - somehow or other - a Choice Scarf Latios's Psyshock. Shit, I might have to use this spread in Doubles sometime...
All calculations are done without Stealth Rock. You can always trapkill the SR user :] but obviously SR changes things.
tl;dr for those of you saying Gengar is frail... you might be surprised at the attacks it can take.
Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
This EV spread aims to do three things in particular:
- it gives Gengar an odd HP, giving it one extra Substitute
- it survives Adamant LO Talonflame's Brave Bird with enough HP left to make a Substitute*
- it outspeeds positive base 110s,* most importantly Lati@s and regular Gengar
*after Mega evolution
Incidentally, it also tanks an Adamant LO Shadow Sneak from Blade Form Aegislash, two CB Azumarill Aqua Jets, one Pursuit from Adamant Mega Tyranitar with enough HP left for a Sub and 2 or 3 turns of sand damage (depending on TTar's damage rolls), and - somehow or other - a Choice Scarf Latios's Psyshock. Shit, I might have to use this spread in Doubles sometime...
All calculations are done without Stealth Rock. You can always trapkill the SR user :] but obviously SR changes things.
tl;dr for those of you saying Gengar is frail... you might be surprised at the attacks it can take.
Hey guys, how about we stop bringing up Shadow Tag Chandelure? First of all, they're not even comparable. Secondly, Shadow Tag Chandelure has never existed outside of DW, and never will exist as its HA has been retconned to Infiltrator. As far as I remember, DW OU never had a very large player-base anyway, so comparing something existent (Mega Gengar) to something non-existent (ST Chandelure) just doesn't add up logically.
DW OU was the third-most played ladder on Smogon PO at its peak. It had a pretty big playerbase. It had analyses going on the site.
The purpose of bringing up Chandelure is to give context. The whole 'oh shit' factor Chandelure had on players fearing its OU release as well as some (a limited amount of) people who had played DW does not compare to Mega Gengar, which has nowhere close to the potency and dominance of Chandelure as a Pokemon.
These comparisons simply outline the limitations of Mega Gengar.
So I decided to run through my current team, built without any consideration for any Gengar, and take a look at how it'd actually fare if a Mega Gengar tried to Perish Trap them. Tyranitar and Goodra would laugh at Shadow Ball and strike back with Crunch or Dragon Tail. (Tyranitar might die to a Destiny Bond, but I'd generally consider it a worthwhile trade, especially if it's already done its main jobs.) Excadrill and Pinsir would just kill it if it tried to use Perish Song, although of course they wouldn't enjoy Shadow Ball at all. Sableye would have to decide whether to switch into something to take the Shadow Ball or Taunt / Foul Play if expecting a Perish Song; it wouldn't be a particularly great situation. And of course Cloyster would laugh at Gengar and annihilate it, using Shell Smash to duck under any Destiny Bonds while hopefully having its Focus Sash intact for if it has to take a Shadow Ball. (If Gengar even has a chance to come in on Cloyster with Cloyster not being set up.)
So yeah, there are countermeasures, and not particularly esoteric ones. If you run something that can't fight back against Mega Gengar, you have to be ready for the risk of it being trapped and killed. That's the risk various Pokemon have had from Dugtrio and Magnezone for a long time, and more recently Wobbuffet and Gothitelle as well. For a defensive team, phazing is certainly an option; between Protect and Substitute, it can block Dragon Tail if it somehow gets to that point, but not Roar or Whirlwind. And if all else fails? Skarmory's run Shed Shell before, and that was just for Magnezone. It's an option, if keeping that one specific Pokemon alive in that situation is worth it.
So yeah, there are countermeasures, and not particularly esoteric ones. If you run something that can't fight back against Mega Gengar, you have to be ready for the risk of it being trapped and killed. That's the risk various Pokemon have had from Dugtrio and Magnezone for a long time, and more recently Wobbuffet and Gothitelle as well. For a defensive team, phazing is certainly an option; between Protect and Substitute, it can block Dragon Tail if it somehow gets to that point, but not Roar or Whirlwind. And if all else fails? Skarmory's run Shed Shell before, and that was just for Magnezone. It's an option, if keeping that one specific Pokemon alive in that situation is worth it.
How your personal team fares against a potentially broken Pokémon is absolutely irrelevant to whether the Pokémon is broken or not. Sure, your team is prepared for Perish Trap Mega Gengar. Should we all run your team just to neutralize Mega Gengar? No, that's ridiculous.
Also, the Gengar spread I posted above takes 20.4 - 24.1% from an uninvested Goodra Dragon Tail, which fails to break its Substitute :)
lol.
Also, please nobody cite ladder as reference for Mega gengar being fine. I played a few games yesterday and i seriously played people mega evolving turn 1 against a suicide lead Garchomp.
Then what set are you using? Gengar cannot have Shadow Ball/Taunt/Pain Split/Disable/Substitute/Focus Blast/Perish Song/Destiny Bond all on the same set. It's versatile, I recognize it, but by forgoing any of these moves Gengar is left open to one or more kinds of check.
I believe, from what I have seen and read in this thread, that Mega-Gengar may indeed be broken if played properly.
However, I do not believe that it warrants a quick ban. My reasoning for this is fairly straightforward. Blaziken was quick-banned because it had a clear negative and centralizing effect on the metagame as it stood. The detrimental effect was clear, and in obvious play. While Mega-Gengar may indeed have the potential to be a massively broken, or at the very least, incredibly centralizing portion of the metagame, nothing I have seen so far indicates that it is this way right now.
The metagame is currently in extreme flux. Further, that state is going to remain throughout the entire duration left before the release of Pokébank. Playstyles are massively shifting, the new mechanics are still being adjusted to, and we are going to have a whole influx of new Pokémon and new changes to adapt to in a moment.
If Smogon is going to institute a quick-ban, I think that the Blaziken ban is the only way I should do it. If, at any point, Mega-Gengar is demonstrating a clear and negative effect on the metagame, ban it then, and ban it freely. Until and unless it reaches such a point, however, a ban is premature.
I honestly don't think we should get any more bans to the current, non-Pokébank OU, as it is simply not going to survive as a playable tier long enough to warrant a ban, especially as we have no indication that the non-Pokébank OU is currently being inundated with Mega-Gengars that are punching holes in every team and setting up sweepers for free.
Is Mega-Gengar broken? Quite probably. Does that mean it should be banned? Yes. Does that mean it should be banned before it proves that it is broken or demonstrates a negative effect on the metagame? I don't believe so.
Although I admit that I'm not familiar enough with how the metagame forms to know how critical pulling such a threat during the formation of the metagame and strategies may be. If it is required to get Mega-Gengar out of there early, in order to prevent it from having an centralizing or teambuilding effect that will likely persist long after it has been removed, then I can see the point of quick-banning it. Otherwise, I think that waiting for testing and results is the more prudent and healthy decision.
However, I do not believe that it warrants a quick ban. My reasoning for this is fairly straightforward. Blaziken was quick-banned because it had a clear negative and centralizing effect on the metagame as it stood. The detrimental effect was clear, and in obvious play. While Mega-Gengar may indeed have the potential to be a massively broken, or at the very least, incredibly centralizing portion of the metagame, nothing I have seen so far indicates that it is this way right now.
The metagame is currently in extreme flux. Further, that state is going to remain throughout the entire duration left before the release of Pokébank. Playstyles are massively shifting, the new mechanics are still being adjusted to, and we are going to have a whole influx of new Pokémon and new changes to adapt to in a moment.
If Smogon is going to institute a quick-ban, I think that the Blaziken ban is the only way I should do it. If, at any point, Mega-Gengar is demonstrating a clear and negative effect on the metagame, ban it then, and ban it freely. Until and unless it reaches such a point, however, a ban is premature.
I honestly don't think we should get any more bans to the current, non-Pokébank OU, as it is simply not going to survive as a playable tier long enough to warrant a ban, especially as we have no indication that the non-Pokébank OU is currently being inundated with Mega-Gengars that are punching holes in every team and setting up sweepers for free.
Is Mega-Gengar broken? Quite probably. Does that mean it should be banned? Yes. Does that mean it should be banned before it proves that it is broken or demonstrates a negative effect on the metagame? I don't believe so.
Although I admit that I'm not familiar enough with how the metagame forms to know how critical pulling such a threat during the formation of the metagame and strategies may be. If it is required to get Mega-Gengar out of there early, in order to prevent it from having an centralizing or teambuilding effect that will likely persist long after it has been removed, then I can see the point of quick-banning it. Otherwise, I think that waiting for testing and results is the more prudent and healthy decision.
I'm willing to give him a chance, but honestly I don't think this will be healthy for OU. The fact remains that this thing can switch into whatever it wants, whenever it wants, and it has the power to take out whatever it wants without giving the opponent much of a chance to fight back. Although ghost types don't need to worry about being trapped by gengar, they can't really threaten him because none of them are faster than gengar (not even the ghosts in ubers can match his speed).
Hey look, something bringing up something else about my favorite Pokemon and I starting coming back here today! Time to look.
My personal thoughts about Gengarite:
Mega Gengar is...not as powerful as everyone makes it out to be. It has decent Defenses, but its HP is still lousy, keeping it frail. What Mega Gengar has is the ability to go fully Offensive or to become a PerishBond Trapper, an amazing set when combined with Choice Band Scizor. One thing people forget about is that Mega Gengar can be phazed, U-Turned, Volt Switched, and just about every way we've avoided Trappers before. You also have to remember that Mega Gengar can't boost its stats and can't hold another item, meaning that what power it has is ALL the power it has.
I won't deny the strengths: Great Speed, still astounding Special Attack, SHADOW TAG (I don't think I can beat the dead horse any more than THAT), and the movepool in the right places. Should Mega Gengar be banned because of these pros? If that were the case, pokemon like Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would've had to be looked at first. Wobbuffet has just the right movepool and Gothitelle has options ranging from Calm Mind, Choice, and ChoiceTrick. Gengar, in both normal and Mega formes, can be checked. Once it Mega Evolves, Mega Gengar may TECHNICALLY be uncounterable, but that doesn't mean unstoppable (I once again mention Gothitelle and Wobbuffet). I say Mega Gengar shouldn't be banned right now, but if it isn't banned, I wouldn't be surprised if everybody decided to Suspect it later.
My personal thoughts about Gengarite:
Mega Gengar is...not as powerful as everyone makes it out to be. It has decent Defenses, but its HP is still lousy, keeping it frail. What Mega Gengar has is the ability to go fully Offensive or to become a PerishBond Trapper, an amazing set when combined with Choice Band Scizor. One thing people forget about is that Mega Gengar can be phazed, U-Turned, Volt Switched, and just about every way we've avoided Trappers before. You also have to remember that Mega Gengar can't boost its stats and can't hold another item, meaning that what power it has is ALL the power it has.
I won't deny the strengths: Great Speed, still astounding Special Attack, SHADOW TAG (I don't think I can beat the dead horse any more than THAT), and the movepool in the right places. Should Mega Gengar be banned because of these pros? If that were the case, pokemon like Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would've had to be looked at first. Wobbuffet has just the right movepool and Gothitelle has options ranging from Calm Mind, Choice, and ChoiceTrick. Gengar, in both normal and Mega formes, can be checked. Once it Mega Evolves, Mega Gengar may TECHNICALLY be uncounterable, but that doesn't mean unstoppable (I once again mention Gothitelle and Wobbuffet). I say Mega Gengar shouldn't be banned right now, but if it isn't banned, I wouldn't be surprised if everybody decided to Suspect it later.
That's is the point: Mega Gengar can be created to trap certain threats that threaten your team. It can't trap everything obviously.
Agreed, but, to my knowledge, checks and counters are supposed to be formed against a Pokémon, not against a Pokémon's strategies/particular sets. If a Pokémon can check or counter a particular Mega-Gengar set, that is not the same as it checking or countering Mega-Gengar itself. In order to have a Mega-Gengar check/counter, you need one that can handle it no matter which set it throws at you, which does not appear to exist.
At least, according to my understanding of the terms.
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