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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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now you switch to something that can kill Gengar, Gengar switches out

And potentially eats a OHKO Pursuit. That alone is sufficient to derail your "M-Gengar beats everything" scenario. Also, you can switch out before Gengar mega evolves. And at the risk of repeating myself...


face it Mega-Gengar is getting banned. Theory alone is proving this.

That's an opinion, not a factual claim supported by evidence. If one player's theory (i.e. yours) was shared by all, there would've been no need for a quick ban discussion in the first place. You're not helping your case with what amounts to a "shut up, I'm right, discussion over" conversation-stopper.

Can someone take up the challenge of offering a pro-ban rebuttal for the lengthy anti-ban posts of Zracknel (page 7) and/or yoman5 (page 35) please? I worry that both sides of the discussion are taking the low-hanging fruit (i.e. rebutting weak arguments as I am guilty of doing in this very post... sorry) while not addressing the strongest points that each side has made.
 
Bahaha, top 10 in pokebank. I have talked with 5 of the top ten (me being one of them) on PS! and have played all but the top ranked user. We really aren't all that. It ends up being you whois the top ten to see who is on and then develop an idea of how to beat them. I will say this, though, in that top 10, I do not recall a mega gengar existing... I ran mawile, Qseasons was running Lucario (not sure if that changed) RS generally runs a different team for every account (I really think it's Lucario and Kan for his top 10 accounts), McBarrett runs scizor (says someone in the OU room, couldn't recall myself), and Esperante (he got provisional again but is #2 otherwise) runs mega heracross. If you want to verify, I'm Aj'sDreamsDied and you can check with the OU room guys.





As someone who can identify logical fallacies when I see one, let me explain why this is unfair as a whole. Both posts go after specific posts (Jude more so to Yellow and Curtains definitely to Rexxx) and say that everyone arguing the pro-ban side has done the same. This is simply not true, especially in Curtains' case where this is a very specific user that was then expanded to encompass the whole lot of us. Also, the idea that A.) We (specifically I) are leaving out crucial parts and B.) We (specifically not me) are ignoring points are both untrue. The pro-ban side has a great deal of points that have been made, both good and bad.

Let me quickly reiterate where I stand about what is fair game with Mega gengar. This is by no means a tried and perfect way to argue, but ifeel that it would be best to at least stray towards most of these points.

We should discuss:
Pursuit trappers- They are the best way to stop mega gengar as we are only for sure knowing these will hit.
Role as Support- This is obvious, we aren't dealing with a sweeper. Can he or can he not use 4 moves to take out common threats to sweepers.
Safe switches and their relevance/occurrence rate. Discussing turns that would be 50/50 are unfortunately closer to theorymoning and prediction, which will be under what we shouldn't discuss.
Definition of a support/how it compares: I've already started comparing this, but if anyone wants to make an argument that there are others that perform the uber support role better or gengar doesn't fit, I'm willing to play ball on that.
Deterrents to mega gengar. I don't like using sticky web here, but rocks/spikes may be a legitimate point if it were to damage enough to stop it from fulfilling his job. Pursuit trappers are also relevant here.
Over centralization: Does stopping mega gengar cause usage of pokemon/moves that would generally not be used?
Play style: Does mega gengar cause play styles to be shifted in ways they would not be? If so, is this positive or negative to the metagame as a whole?

We should avoid:
Anything involving prediction: Prediction in itself is not a set skill and has no formula. For our sake, getting as close to constants and controls is the best thing we can do, so adding variables of how a player thinks into this is a bad idea. This has happened on both sides.
1v1 Situations: I know this may seem a bit unfair to the anti-ban side, but let's face it: We're not dealing with something that can beat everything it looks at. Sure, the pro-ban side needs to accept this more, but realistically unless we can find a wall that this thing isn't killing (probably besides jellicent/other wall ghosts), this really isn't a great idea. If we want to talk counters, please continue the discussion on pursuit counters. I think that's positive input. If this was a setup mon, counters are fine. Support, however, is supposed to have counters. How often is ferrothron staying in on heatran? Same thing applies here. Which is why pursuit trapping is relevant.
Gengar's support: Realistically, he should not have much. He is support for something else. We can talk about what he supports, just not really reference what supports him.
Beating a dead ponyta: Seriously, read the thread a bit before posting... We're trying to get somewhere.

I think that this where the grounds of discussion should stick. Quickly, remember that uber support is a pokemon that makes it incredibly easy for another pokemon to sweep. Ergo, sweeper mega gengar in context is just being misused and really to the purpose of this thread, shouldn't exist EVEN IF that's what is seen most often on the ladder. I, though, have stated my points and really would rather just help keep this argument on track rather than participate (unless someone responds to/needs responding to).

Alright, here goes part#2:

A new category I thought I'd add here in my second half of my response is U-turners/Volt Switchers, Several of which are incredibly prevalent in the metagame.

Volt Turners:
Genesect. Genesect is an extremely fast pokemon that generally carries a scarf and always carries u-turn. Genesect is a threat to a lot of sweeps, between being scarfed, having Download, and having incredible coverage. It can both revenge kill and pivot really well, and can cause problems for gengar, who is unable to switch in on any of its moves and can not kill it in a 1v1 scenario because genesect can u-turn before gengar even attacks (and the u-turn itself is not negligible with gengars defenses). Genesect may or may not be broken, but he is currently in the metagame and is therefore fair game to discuss as a problem, even if not technically a counter. Genesect is incredibly popular for entirely other reasons than gengar existing, and so doesn't contribute to overcentralization.
Rotom. Rotom-W specifically. Rotoms of every nature and every moveset run rampant in the metagame currently. It is a prime volt switcher, has a hard hitting hydro pump, and has access to trickscarf shenanigans, allowing it to both outspeed and neutar gengar, while its natural bulk (often invested) allows it to take at least one if not several hits from gengar, depending on the exact set of the rotom itself. Without scarf it volt switches slower than gengar, allowing a free switch in (with a bit of damage) to whatever you need. Being a slow turner as opposed to a fast turner like genesect, instead of saving itself, it allows a teammate to come in completely unscathed against gengar, which bypasses shadow tag almost entirely. Volt switch being on every rotom set in the metagame, this does not contribute to overcentralization, either.
Scizor. While scizor can not take two hits from gengar if scizor isnt specially defensive, scizor is another slow turner that has the added benefits of pursuit and bullet punch, two nightmares of gengar already stated in the first half of my response. Again, scizor is incredibly popular with or without mega gengar, and pursuit, bullet punch, and u-turn are all ou staples and nothing out of the ordinary.
Thundurus. Thundurus currently not being uber is a viable and powerful volt switcher that handles mega gengar incredibly well between priority taunt and volt switch, along with thunder wave at priority allowing it to cripple mega gengar for the entirety of the match setting it to 1/4 the speed it should have, allowing basically anything to outspeed it, shutting down its destiny bond and killing potential. These moves are nothing out of the ordinary on Thundurus, and he is currently ou, like genesect, and is so available for use and a valid and non-gengar dependant option.
Jolteon. Not the sturdiest of users, but with the same base speed as mega gengar and a strong, strong, attack able to threaten gengar before it mega's and speed tying mega gengar for the volt switch or even the attack (specs thunderbolt with a solid chance to ohko after rocks, volt switch doing a solid 61-72%). Gengar can noteably can not ohko jolteon, requiring two shots from either of his stabs, allowing jolteon to win any hard 1v1s against gengar not already mega'd and being a coiflip for an already mega'd gengar. Jolteon is OU, and these moves are standard, as is specs/life orb, life orb losing out on the ohko thunderbolt. Again, nothing out of the ordinary, standard set.
Crowbat is another noteable u-turner, but is oneshot by thunderbolt (56% chance, guarunteed after rocks). Crowbat does have base 130speed, tying mega gengar, and has both taunt and u-turn along with a choice band set that DOES ohko gengar if it wins the speed tie (using brave bird, 100% guarunteed ohko). This is another coinflip scenario (against the choice band set) but the odds are stacked in crowbats favor, with 50% chance for megar to go first and 56% chance to get the ohko, crowbat has an astounding 74% chance to win that matchup should gengar decide to stay. Again, these are standard moves, albeit in gen5 uu, but defog access has boosted his use in gen6.
Gliscor has u-turn, and is a slow turner (against gengar), but cant switch into gengar, as it does get 2hko'd, and generally does not run u-turn. However as a popular ou mon that doesnt get ohko'd it deserves a mention.
Landorus-T has a powerful u-turn and does require 2 hits, also having a commonplace scarf set can threaten to kill a mega'd gengar with eqarthquake or be a fast-turn pivot, along with stone edge should gengar not mega to avoid the eq. Common ou sets, common moves, threat to gengar and a solid u-turn user.

Defintion of a support/comparisions:
While gengar does fit the uber support role better than any other mon in ou so far, it is a fresh metagame and so may develop more, but as of yet gengar is the best candidate. However, a lot of more "traditional" supports have other options to contribute to the team, such as hazard removal, wish support, boost passing and status spreading. Gengar can not do these things, but most supports can't do what he does, he's got his own niche currently in the ou metagame, and generally benefits from an additional support mon on his team to help clear hazards which make gengar far less useful.

Deterrents to mega gengar:
Stealth rocks. Stealth rocks are gengars biggest enemy so far, as he needs to switch out and in at least once generally to do his job. Stealth rock damage allows many mons to nail a guarunteed ohko where it wasnt guarunteed before, put him in priority range if it's his second or futher time switching in, and generally just causes him to suffer, as gengar wants that hp to take *a* hit so he can clear his target, or to get up a sub, potentially more than one if he is forced out (sub blocking a pursuit trapper has been brought up in this thread and so I'm making it relevant here).
Status. Being paralyzed is incredibly bad for gengar, and often stops him from doing his job properly. Users like Klefki and Tornadus can paralyze him before he strikes them, allowing them to use futher moves (setting up screens or spikes in the case of klefki, or even swagger foul play shenanigans, and taunting or volt switching to something else in the case of thundurus) before leaving or going down (or even forcing gengar out). a paralyzed gengar can not even destiny bond sac itself and so stops perfoming its job as anything except maybe a perish trapper vs walls that don't hit back (blissey, infestation goodra, etc).
These two deterrents lead to another point, gengar is a support mon who can be reliant on another support mon. This either limits gengars performance or the way you build your team. While not necessarily strictly a con, this does restrict the way he is used in a lot of cases.
Prankster shenanigans. Gengar being a special attacker is quite vulnerable to the likes of t-wave swagger, as he can not really function, and getting lucky through confusion doesn't achieve all that much against most prankster users. Also having a weakness to foul play compounds the strength of users like klefki and Liepard against gengar. While neither of these really wants to switch in, they can both cripple mega gengar severely.
Choice users. Banded priority and scarfers are an issue for mega gengar, as his support role is generally to remove obstacles to a sweep, these revenge killer type pokemon can both handle the mon they would come in to stop and mega gengar. Things like scarfchomp, genesect, lando-T, banded scizor, banded azumaril, banded metagross do significant amounts of damage to gengar, meaning it cant switch in without being 2hkod before making a move, and it cant 1v1 the majority of these revenge killers. That being said, Gengar's job isn't really to take these mons on. Gengar can't really deal with them, though, and so it is a deterrent to using it as your answer to sweeper stoppers, requiring additional team mates to perform that job instead. I make this point to dispute all the "Gengar kills your wall and then sweeper x, y or z kill you." That kind of argument has been used a lot and ignores the commonality of revenge killers.

Over centralization:
While this may or may not be an issue, we don't have recent usage statistics to make solid arguments to this either way. We can, however, safely say that the presence of gengar must be considered with every team. That said, the same is true of Scizor, Genesect, Garchomp, Mega Kangkaskhan, Talonflame, Baton Pass Leads, etc, etc, etc. Any strong pokemon or pokemon type should be considered while building a team. You can't just arbitrarily jam pokemon together and expect the team to do well. Good teams have answers to everything, or at least answers to everything they need to answer- that's what makes them good.

Playstyle:
Again, with the freshness of the metagame and lack of recent usage statistics, we are limited to personal experiences on the ladder, which don't really hold much water as even someone who has played 100+ games has only seen a tiny fraction of the metagame. I can not comment on this with any amount of authority until smogon puts up more usage stats.

Sorry for the extreme length of these two posts (link to the first half: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...on-read-post-383.3493175/page-35#post-5012992) but I wanted to give detailed and accurate responses so that the discussion remains coherent and reasonable, and so that my arguments have weight and will (hopefully) not get ignored/randomly naysay'd.
 
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And potentially eats a OHKO Pursuit. That alone is sufficient to derail your "M-Gengar beats everything" scenario. Also, you can switch out before Gengar mega evolves. And at the risk of repeating myself...

Well, whats gonna pursuit trap it, TTAR? It's not taking a focus blast, especially not 2 if gengars behind a sub. Scizor maybe. While you are right about it not beating everything, It beats what it needs to beat, and it beats it without letting your opponent prevent this beating.

just to show you the power,

252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%)
thats with assault vest in the sand, max HP max special defense. still a clean 2HKO. thats obscene. i don't think i need to show you the calc without all the excess for you to get that you can't really pursuit trap this thing safely. even Scizor isn't going to love taking a now neutral shadow ball to the face. The problem is solutions aren't really straightforward.
 
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Well, whats gonna pursuit trap it, TTAR? It's not taking a focus blast, especially not 2 if gengars behind a sub. Scizor maybe. While you are right about it not beating everything, It beats what it needs to beat, and it beats it without letting your opponent prevent this beating.

just to show you the power,

252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%)
thats with assault vest in the sand, max HP max defense. still a clean 2HKO. thats obscene. i don't think i need to show you the calc without all the excess for you to get that you can't really pursuit trap this thing safely. even Scizor isn't going to love taking a now neutral shadow ball to the face. The problem is solutions aren't really straightforward.

I posted a long post with detailed numbers and pokemon on page 35 if you'd like to read it and respond specifically to any of my points; http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...on-read-post-383.3493175/page-35#post-5012992

edit: specifically on the point of ttar, if the gengar in question doesnt have focus blast, gengar can not fight ttar. While common, it is not on every gengar set. Gengar without focus blast gets annihilated by bisharp/ttar, and with focus blast still dies hard to spD scizor. (and this is assming switch ins, whereas gengar wants no part of any of these mons in any sort of 1v1 scenario)
 
As the first logical and reasonable post I have seen in several pages, I'd like to respond to it.

Common Pursuit trappers:
TTar (assault vest or not, Calcs already show that focus blast does NOT ohko ttar-sand puts specially defensive ttar out of range) Who has both crunch and pursuit access (I mention crunch because prediction aside, let's not open that can of worms, does threaten an ohko if gengar stays in, while pursuit does not ohko unless gengar swaps out). Ttar is a viable and competitive OU mon, and neither crunch nor pursuit is out of the ordinary.

Scizor is another very common pursuit user. Specially defensive scizor can 2hko mega gengar while being 3hko'd in return (requires rocks if leftovers). This is probably the best answer out there to mega gengar as it also has bullet punch (priority) and U-turn (ability to pivot-slower than gengar-into something that can handle it/force it out). All three moves (pursuit, u-turn, and bullet punch) are standard moves and require nothing out of the ordinary to beat mega gengar.

Honchkrow can (depening on investment and stealth rocks) ohko gengar with pursuit and (guarunteed) ohko gengar with sucker punch, while not being ohko'd by any of gengars moves aside from thunderbolt due to its typing (neutral focus blast, neutral sludge wave/bomb and resisted shadow ball). Notably sludge wave has the ohko after stealth rock damage if theres no spD investment on the honchkrow. Neither move is out of the ordinary on honchkrow, though the mon itself is UU, it has been brought up in this thread and so I mention it here.

Heracross, though not the most common of pursuit users, also 2hkos with pursuit (if mega'd, the only real reason to use heracross, and OHKOs if the switch out happens) but does get 2hko'd in return with zero special investment, though theoretically one could invest in hp due to heracross's subpar speed and noteable bulk and at 252 hp it requires a 3hko after rocks and becomes a true pursuit counter, with 2hko pursuit and ohko on the switch out. This is an example of one pursuit trapper that could develop in a gengar-ou metagame, but isn't necessarily common currently.

Metagross, who has fallen out of favor a lot, does land the 2hko after rocks or being banded (not uncommon) and does get the ohko if switched out, but with only 252 hp investment, it does get ohko'd after rocks and a chance to be ohko'd without rocks due to steel's nerfs. Not a great switch in unless the gengar in question doesnt pack shadow ball (but most do, so we're going to just say metagross doesn't work).

Bisharp, despite being UU, has both sucker punch and pursuit. While requiring prediction, pursuit gets the ohko on switch out and sucker punch gets the ohko with priority, both guarunteed without rocks. The problem here is that focus blast, while inaccurate, absolutely and utterly destroys bisharp. While this is more set-reliant, Bisharp is a fairly reliable answer to gengar, being able to deal with most sets of gengar through the combination of pursuit/sucker punch, as its typing ignores both of gengars stabs (immunity to poison, and taking 3 turns to kill with shadow ball, even with steels nerf). Neither move is out of the ordinary on bisharp, so I will include him as a pursuit counter.

Role as support:
He can unquestionably deal with most walls, but there are certain threats to sweepers he is not guarunteed to deal with, just by their nature. Things like sash users and scarf revenge killers are not necessarily things gengar can deal with. He can clear out gliscors/chanseys/insert wall here, but revenge killers are harder for him to deal with just by their nature. If gengar takes out the opposing wall, only for your salamence/dragonite/etc to be met with scarfed garchomp outrage, gengar will not be able to do anything about it, as it does not outspeed and can not actually switch into that. That said he does outspeed just about everything not scarfed, so he is still a brutally strong support and quite possibly the best wall breaker in the game.

Safe switches:
There are several mons that can switch in on gengar safely and incredibly effectively, though most carry assault vest.

Noteably Assault vest escavalier completely and utterly destroys gengar, as it carries a deadly ohko pursuit (if switching, 2hko if not), an OHKO iron head (chance before rocks, guarunteed after rocks), and typing that takes neutral at best from gengars entire movepool barring HP fire which is usually forgone for stronger coverage moves. While this does in fact fall under over centralization it deserves note here because of how effective this mon is.

252+spdef Goodra requires 4 hits from dazzling gleam to go down (even after rocks), while 3hkoing gengar with uninvested dragon pulse. It can also run lefties for less spdef investment or chesto resto or even rain rest (with hydration). Goodra has lots of normal, viable options that happen to counter gengar pretty hard. This is noteable because it is a special wall gengar can not break without the perish set, and the hit it will take getting off perish song is substantial (40-47% uninvested). Assault vest goodra (with 0 spdef) can handle 4 full hits of dazzling gleam with a chance to survive (guarunteed 4hko after rocks though), while 2hkoing gengar. Two hits. That is a lot of pain, even for the perish set (54-64%) that's enough to basically decomission gengar with any sort of priority (barring mach punch) as a threat. Again, goodra does die to the perish set, but does significant damage and can handle non perish sets stupidly well (though destiny bond is an issue for the assault vest set).
Prankster users can also switch in safely, depending on the moveset. Sableye probably being the best one, because like escavalier it can handle any of gengars standard moves neutrally, and unlike most mons can afford to run 252hp and 252+spdef on a standard set, due to will o wisp basically giving it +2 defense. Priority taunt and mean look are both extremely good against gengar, allowing sableye to fully neuter gengar (unless I'm mistaken and mean look no longer applies to gengar due to ghost mechanics change, which is entirely possible), along with priority recover if the gengar isnt carrying sludge wave or sludge bomb to just wall out the gengar with will-o-wisp burn or night shade. Edit: Sableye does get destroyed by dazzling gleam, sorry for not catching that earlier.

I don't have time to cover the rest of the points you brought up at the moment, but I will try to address them later today.

Pursuit trappers:

I happen to run both Pursuit and Crunch on Tyranitar, and I have to say that it's a lot harder to trap a good Mega Gengar player than you think. It's a 50/50 game, basically, and that's not counting the fact that Tyranitar cannot switch in as Gengar Mega Evolves. So, basically, I have to try to revenge kill Mega Gengar, by switching in Tyranitar and trying to predict whether it will stay in. If this is your sole way to beat a well-played Mega Gengar that's not getting you very far.

Scizor I'll give you, UNLESS Gengar is running HP Fire just to get rid of Scizor. It's quite a viable way to lure in said Scizor. Also, whenever I Mega Evolve I usually click Substitute if the opponent has a Pursuit user, and then I switch just to be safe.

Honchkrow needs 252 HP / 104 SpD to survive Sludge Bomb after SR and 252 HP / 144 SpD to survive Sludge Wave after SR. Assuming 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 SpD Adamant, Pursuit does not OHKO Gengar if it stays in, not even with a Life Orb (which defeats the purpose of running that much bulk). Sucker Punch is a mind game unless Gengar has Thunderbolt (which is not uncommon, since Gyarados can stop certain sweepers, so Gengar may need to run it) and hits Honchkrow as it switches in while Mega Evolving. Also, again, if I use Substitute when Megaing, I can just switch (or TBolt if I'm running that).

Mega Heracross needs 252 HP / 220 SpD with a CAREFUL nature to avoid being 2HKOed by Sludge Wave after SR. And then with 36 Attack EVs your Pursuit is hitting for 48-56% damage. It cannot even hope to revenge kill Mega Gengar unless it runs this much bulk--Rock Blast does ~78% MAX.

Even AV 252/252+ Metagross is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball after SR. Which basically means you are trying to revenge kill with Zen Headbutt/Pursuit mindgames. Choice Band Metagross needs 252 HP / 172 SpD to avoid being OHKOed after SR, which defeats the purpose of using CB, and at that point your Pursuit hits for ~60-70% with CB.

If I Substitute when I Mega Evolve, I can either switch or just click Focus Blast. If it comes in to revenge kill, again it's a 50/50 game, like with Tyranitar.

Also none of these are counters because they cannot switch in thanks to Shadow Tag. Unless it's that first turn but that first turn I always use Substitute if the opponent carries a Pursuiter.

Support role:

Don't try to take sweepers or Scarfers with Mega Gengar, that's just plain stupid. I can excuse something like Scarf Starmie since almost no one uses that, but if you die to Scarf Garchomp before doing your job it's your fault. If your team is that weak to Scarf Garchomp you kinda need a new team.

Safe switches:

First of all, if you're forced to run something like AV Escavalier just to kill Mega Gengar that's a sign of how broken it is. And second, HP Fire mauls him, and Pursuit is only an OHKO switching out with heavy Attack investment, and with that much Attack investment Shadow Ball 2HKOes after SR and HP Fire...do I need to explain?

When your opponent switches in Goodra after you kill something, you can switch to your Blissey or Tyranitar or whatever. No one is forcing Mega Gengar to stay in. On the other hand, your opponent cannot switch in their Goodra. Until you kill something, and then you just switch out and kill something else later.

Even with 252 HP / 252 SpD CALM, Sableye is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball after SR and cannot do anything back. And no one is going to put an AV on him, that's just dumb. The only Prankster that should even think about switching in is Klefki and that's because it usually runs a lot of bulk, Dual Screens, and Thunder Wave, and it still can't do anything if Mega Gengar has a Sub up (Foul Play does not break its Sub).

Also once it gets Perish Song you can't Pursuit trap it anymore thanks to Disable, which it will most likely be using, and you can't take its attacks because it's Perish Song. I still prefer 3 Attacks+Sub but a lot of people like Perish Song.
 
I'm inclined to disagree. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's anywhere close to "one of the worst arguments ever." We have two tools with which to make this decision-- our theorymonned knowledge and our actual experiences, so let's not entirely undercut the value of the latter...

While this is true, many people posting here with the "I don't have issues with Mengar" debate are (most likely) not very high up on the ladder. There is usually a coorelation between making a good debate theory and being a skilled player because being a skilled player means you have actually thought long and hard about how mechanics work and things like that. There is a big gap between a good Mengar user and a bad Mengar user. Just an example of my own. (I'm not very high on the ladder honestly due in part to my skill nad the fact that I like to use stupid Pokemon in my team to niche uses, and I'm too lazy to actually work on laddering.) I run a Scrappy Exploud with Boomburst because I personally have fun with it. I have seen many people switch their Gengar in on my Exploud thinking they have a free switch but do not realize that it gets one shot. A good user would know that Gengar can't take a switch in on an Exploud and wait for a better opportunity to make their play.

There are things that sound absolutely brilliant in theory, but aren't flawless in practice. Wobbuffet was theory-banned during the shoddy battle days even though it seemed like generation 4's offensive threats had caught up to it; there was no statistical data to back up the argument (it wasn't being heavily used) and it was because of a vocal minority that repeatedly painted scenarios of wobbuffet's "unbeatable nature" that it ended up getting the axe.

Wobbuffet isn't really a good example since he was banned when there was no such thing as U-Turn and it isn't really the same case as Mengar. Wobbuffet has 0 attacking moves and it is literally a guessing game between the two opponents a lot of times. Mengar takes away a lot of guessing for the player using it.

But really, you had to play optimally to get those kinds of results. You also had to correctly anticipate the moves of your opponent to achieve the best results. The nature of the tools you were using allowed forgiveness from play errors, but at the end of things, player skill was maximizing your results.

I feel like Mega Gengar falls into a similar --although obviously not the same-- kind of camp. Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent.

While I agree that it takes skill to use Mengar effectively, it doesn't really take a 'mistake' by the opponent to optimize his effectiveness. Mengar kind of takes the 'best' option away from the opponent because if he plays his best choice against the opponent's biggest threat, it can come in, trap it, and kill it for a sweep.

You need to account for Mega Gengar in teambuilding. I know others aren't into it, but I'm a huge fan of sticky web, which allows positive-natured, fully invested base 78s to outspeed and get the jump on Mega Gengar and smash its face in, should it switch in grounded. I'm also a huge fan of the mixed, pivot aegislash, who is capable of revenge killing with shadow sneak, but-- more likely-- will punish the opponent's "free" kill, and uses gengar's switch-outs to launch impressively-powered shadow balls and sacred swords at incoming switch ins.

Building a team around a specific threat is obviously a key part to teambuilding, the problem is, there aren't many things that can deal with Mengar on their own. The only 'Mon even close to being viable with sticky web is Galvantula, and the electric spot on a team is much preferred by most players to be used by Rotom-W. There are really only a handful, at most, other Pokemon that can take on Mengar without crippling the team in the process. Forcing those few Pokemon to be on a team forces a specific playstyle to become the entire Metagame based on one Pokemon, which should never be allowed, and honestly would make competitve play really boring.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

The big problem with the 'uber' Megas is their new abilities. Shadow tag, and to an extent parental bond, are mechanics that are really broken and find a way to both handcuff the opponent and give immense freedom to the user at the same time.

It feels true that Mega Gengar is best billed as a team player, who opens the doors for threats to take advantage of the holes it creates. But to do that, you do have to take some teambuilding into account, however minor... Mega Gengar best helps a number of key offensive mons. When you start seeing the same few together, it really drives home the impression that this is a team archetype we're talking about-- that traps and dismantles opponents-- rather than a Blakizen-esque mon that runs the show by itself. We made great strides in generation V to balance what we felt was a major characteristic of competitive play-- infinite weather-- so considering the threat this quickban would have towards other mega pokemon (and maybe you'll laugh, but also the removal of the offensive trap team archetype, if I'm not dumb and that's really a thing) makes me believe that a quickban would be a hasty decision here.

Just because a Pokemon is an amazing teamplayer/support Pokemon does not mean it cannot be overpowered. To bring up another varient of video games, League of Legends (bare with me, I have a point.), a support character known as Thresh did not do much damage on his own but created so many opportunities for his teammates that they had to nerf him to balance him out with the rest of the game. We don't have the luxury of nerfing a Pokemon on the spot since GameFreak is such a massive company and such, but we as a player base have these tiers for a reason. To keep the Meta in check and not centered around on Pokemon or one style of play.

Getting your kill-value up-front is really strong, no question, but other Megas like Kanga deliver value that is greater and while it's not a sure thing, it'd argue it's all-but-guaranteed unless the opponent is packing specific answers.

Yeah, I have issues with Kanga, but that's another story lol.

I think Mega Gengar is insane, massively powerful, and extremely hard to deal with in the right hands. That said, I'm not sure it warrants a quickban.

I actually appreaciate the in depth and intelligent post here, and I hope I made my counter points without making discounting the opinion, because I do understand where the non-ban users are coming from, I just disagree with them.

Thank you for reading.

And potentially eats a OHKO Pursuit. That alone is sufficient to derail your "M-Gengar beats everything" scenario. Also, you can switch out before Gengar mega evolves. And at the risk of repeating myself...




That's an opinion, not a factual claim supported by evidence. If one player's theory (i.e. yours) was shared by all, there would've been no need for a quick ban discussion in the first place. You're not helping your case with what amounts to a "shut up, I'm right, discussion over" conversation-stopper.

Can someone take up the challenge of offering a pro-ban rebuttal for the lengthy anti-ban posts of Zracknel (page 7) and/or yoman5 (page 35) please? I worry that both sides of the discussion are taking the low-hanging fruit (i.e. rebutting weak arguments as I am guilty of doing in this very post... sorry) while not addressing the strongest points that each side has made.
I went and reasponded to each point on the page 7 one by Zracknel, I hope it helps :).
 
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Pursuit trappers:

I happen to run both Pursuit and Crunch on Tyranitar, and I have to say that it's a lot harder to trap a good Mega Gengar player than you think. It's a 50/50 game, basically, and that's not counting the fact that Tyranitar cannot switch in as Gengar Mega Evolves. So, basically, I have to try to revenge kill Mega Gengar, by switching in Tyranitar and trying to predict whether it will stay in. If this is your sole way to beat a well-played Mega Gengar that's not getting you very far.

Scizor I'll give you, UNLESS Gengar is running HP Fire just to get rid of Scizor. It's quite a viable way to lure in said Scizor. Also, whenever I Mega Evolve I usually click Substitute if the opponent has a Pursuit user, and then I switch just to be safe.

Honchkrow needs 252 HP / 104 SpD to survive Sludge Bomb after SR and 252 HP / 144 SpD to survive Sludge Wave after SR. Assuming 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 SpD Adamant, Pursuit does not OHKO Gengar if it stays in, not even with a Life Orb (which defeats the purpose of running that much bulk). Sucker Punch is a mind game unless Gengar has Thunderbolt (which is not uncommon, since Gyarados can stop certain sweepers, so Gengar may need to run it) and hits Honchkrow as it switches in while Mega Evolving. Also, again, if I use Substitute when Megaing, I can just switch (or TBolt if I'm running that).

Mega Heracross needs 252 HP / 220 SpD with a CAREFUL nature to avoid being 2HKOed by Sludge Wave after SR. And then with 36 Attack EVs your Pursuit is hitting for 48-56% damage. It cannot even hope to revenge kill Mega Gengar unless it runs this much bulk--Rock Blast does ~78% MAX.

Even AV 252/252+ Metagross is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball after SR. Which basically means you are trying to revenge kill with Zen Headbutt/Pursuit mindgames. Choice Band Metagross needs 252 HP / 172 SpD to avoid being OHKOed after SR, which defeats the purpose of using CB, and at that point your Pursuit hits for ~60-70% with CB.

If I Substitute when I Mega Evolve, I can either switch or just click Focus Blast. If it comes in to revenge kill, again it's a 50/50 game, like with Tyranitar.

Also none of these are counters because they cannot switch in thanks to Shadow Tag. Unless it's that first turn but that first turn I always use Substitute if the opponent carries a Pursuiter.

Support role:

Don't try to take sweepers or Scarfers with Mega Gengar, that's just plain stupid. I can excuse something like Scarf Starmie since almost no one uses that, but if you die to Scarf Garchomp before doing your job it's your fault. If your team is that weak to Scarf Garchomp you kinda need a new team.

Safe switches:

First of all, if you're forced to run something like AV Escavalier just to kill Mega Gengar that's a sign of how broken it is. And second, HP Fire mauls him, and Pursuit is only an OHKO switching out with heavy Attack investment, and with that much Attack investment Shadow Ball 2HKOes after SR and HP Fire...do I need to explain?

When your opponent switches in Goodra after you kill something, you can switch to your Blissey or Tyranitar or whatever. No one is forcing Mega Gengar to stay in. On the other hand, your opponent cannot switch in their Goodra. Until you kill something, and then you just switch out and kill something else later.

Even with 252 HP / 252 SpD CALM, Sableye is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball after SR and cannot do anything back. And no one is going to put an AV on him, that's just dumb. The only Prankster that should even think about switching in is Klefki and that's because it usually runs a lot of bulk, Dual Screens, and Thunder Wave, and it still can't do anything if Mega Gengar has a Sub up (Foul Play does not break its Sub).

Also once it gets Perish Song you can't Pursuit trap it anymore thanks to Disable, which it will most likely be using, and you can't take its attacks because it's Perish Song. I still prefer 3 Attacks+Sub but a lot of people like Perish Song.

You're not saying anything new. I have noted these things. You basically quote me in the support role, and escavalier is also metioned as being a centralizing option. Don't try to disprove my points with my own arguments please. As far as switches, please see the volt turn section of my second post. If we assume stealth rocks, gengar using sub to block pursuit loses 30+% of its health just by switching out, as both teams are allowed stealth rocks. Again, the point of my response was to address what was mentioned, which is ignoring prediction and skill level and just talking raw numbers and mons. The safe switches section is also mostly addressing the turn when gengar megas, cuz that turn has to happen every single game. With heracross specifically I already noted that pursuit on it is a centralized choice, and 78% rock blast if fine if we count rocks/substitute damage, since you're including rocks in all of your calculations. I already SAID metagross is ohko'd by shadow ball now. I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not you actually read my post.
 
Alright, here goes part#2:

A new category I thought I'd add here in my second half of my response is U-turners/Volt Switchers, Several of which are incredibly prevalent in the metagame.

Volt Turners:
Genesect. Genesect is an extremely fast pokemon that generally carries a scarf and always carries u-turn. Genesect is a threat to a lot of sweeps, between being scarfed, having Download, and having incredible coverage. It can both revenge kill and pivot really well, and can cause problems for gengar, who is unable to switch in on any of its moves and can not kill it in a 1v1 scenario because genesect can u-turn before gengar even attacks (and the u-turn itself is not negligible with gengars defenses). Genesect may or may not be broken, but he is currently in the metagame and is therefore fair game to discuss as a problem, even if not technically a counter. Genesect is incredibly popular for entirely other reasons than gengar existing, and so doesn't contribute to overcentralization.
Rotom. Rotom-W specifically. Rotoms of every nature and every moveset run rampant in the metagame currently. It is a prime volt switcher, has a hard hitting hydro pump, and has access to trickscarf shenanigans, allowing it to both outspeed and neutar gengar, while its natural bulk (often invested) allows it to take at least one if not several hits from gengar, depending on the exact set of the rotom itself. Without scarf it volt switches slower than gengar, allowing a free switch in (with a bit of damage) to whatever you need. Being a slow turner as opposed to a fast turner like genesect, instead of saving itself, it allows a teammate to come in completely unscathed against gengar, which bypasses shadow tag almost entirely. Volt switch being on every rotom set in the metagame, this does not contribute to overcentralization, either.
Scizor. While scizor can not take two hits from gengar if scizor isnt specially defensive, scizor is another slow turner that has the added benefits of pursuit and bullet punch, two nightmares of gengar already stated in the first half of my response. Again, scizor is incredibly popular with or without mega gengar, and pursuit, bullet punch, and u-turn are all ou staples and nothing out of the ordinary.
Thundurus. Thundurus currently not being uber is a viable and powerful volt switcher that handles mega gengar incredibly well between priority taunt and volt switch, along with thunder wave at priority allowing it to cripple mega gengar for the entirety of the match setting it to 1/4 the speed it should have, allowing basically anything to outspeed it, shutting down its destiny bond and killing potential. These moves are nothing out of the ordinary on Thundurus, and he is currently ou, like genesect, and is so available for use and a valid and non-gengar dependant option.
Jolteon. Not the sturdiest of users, but with the same base speed as mega gengar and a strong, strong, attack able to threaten gengar before it mega's and speed tying mega gengar for the volt switch or even the attack (specs thunderbolt with a solid chance to ohko after rocks, volt switch doing a solid 61-72%). Gengar can noteably can not ohko jolteon, requiring two shots from either of his stabs, allowing jolteon to win any hard 1v1s against gengar not already mega'd and being a coiflip for an already mega'd gengar. Jolteon is OU, and these moves are standard, as is specs/life orb, life orb losing out on the ohko thunderbolt. Again, nothing out of the ordinary, standard set.
Crowbat is another noteable u-turner, but is oneshot by thunderbolt (56% chance, guarunteed after rocks). Crowbat does have base 130speed, tying mega gengar, and has both taunt and u-turn along with a choice band set that DOES ohko gengar if it wins the speed tie (using brave bird, 100% guarunteed ohko). This is another coinflip scenario (against the choice band set) but the odds are stacked in crowbats favor, with 50% chance for megar to go first and 56% chance to get the ohko, crowbat has an astounding 74% chance to win that matchup should gengar decide to stay. Again, these are standard moves, albeit in gen5 uu, but defog access has boosted his use in gen6.
Gliscor has u-turn, and is a slow turner (against gengar), but cant switch into gengar, as it does get 2hko'd, and generally does not run u-turn. However as a popular ou mon that doesnt get ohko'd it deserves a mention.
Landorus-T has a powerful u-turn and does require 2 hits, also having a commonplace scarf set can threaten to kill a mega'd gengar with eqarthquake or be a fast-turn pivot, along with stone edge should gengar not mega to avoid the eq. Common ou sets, common moves, threat to gengar and a solid u-turn user.

Defintion of a support/comparisions:
While gengar does fit the uber support role better than any other mon in ou so far, it is a fresh metagame and so may develop more, but as of yet gengar is the best candidate. However, a lot of more "traditional" supports have other options to contribute to the team, such as hazard removal, wish support, boost passing and status spreading. Gengar can not do these things, but most supports can't do what he does, he's got his own niche currently in the ou metagame, and generally benefits from an additional support mon on his team to help clear hazards which make gengar far less useful.

Deterrents to mega gengar:
Stealth rocks. Stealth rocks are gengars biggest enemy so far, as he needs to switch out and in at least once generally to do his job. Stealth rock damage allows many mons to nail a guarunteed ohko where it wasnt guarunteed before, put him in priority range if it's his second or futher time switching in, and generally just causes him to suffer, as gengar wants that hp to take *a* hit so he can clear his target, or to get up a sub, potentially more than one if he is forced out (sub blocking a pursuit trapper has been brought up in this thread and so I'm making it relevant here).
Status. Being paralyzed is incredibly bad for gengar, and often stops him from doing his job properly. Users like Klefki and Tornadus can paralyze him before he strikes them, allowing them to use futher moves (setting up screens or spikes in the case of klefki, or even swagger foul play shenanigans, and taunting or volt switching to something else in the case of thundurus) before leaving or going down (or even forcing gengar out). a paralyzed gengar can not even destiny bond sac itself and so stops perfoming its job as anything except maybe a perish trapper vs walls that don't hit back (blissey, infestation goodra, etc).
These two deterrents lead to another point, gengar is a support mon who can be reliant on another support mon. This either limits gengars performance or the way you build your team. While not necessarily strictly a con, this does restrict the way he is used in a lot of cases.
Prankster shenanigans. Gengar being a special attacker is quite vulnerable to the likes of t-wave swagger, as he can not really function, and getting lucky through confusion doesn't achieve all that much against most prankster users. Also having a weakness to foul play compounds the strength of users like klefki and Liepard against gengar. While neither of these really wants to switch in, they can both cripple mega gengar severely.
Choice users. Banded priority and scarfers are an issue for mega gengar, as his support role is generally to remove obstacles to a sweep, these revenge killer type pokemon can both handle the mon they would come in to stop and mega gengar. Things like scarfchomp, genesect, lando-T, banded scizor, banded azumaril, banded metagross do significant amounts of damage to gengar, meaning it cant switch in without being 2hkod before making a move, and it cant 1v1 the majority of these revenge killers. That being said, Gengar's job isn't really to take these mons on. Gengar can't really deal with them, though, and so it is a deterrent to using it as your answer to sweeper stoppers, requiring additional team mates to perform that job instead. I make this point to dispute all the "Gengar kills your wall and then sweeper x, y or z kill you." That kind of argument has been used a lot and ignores the commonality of revenge killers.

Over centralization:
While this may or may not be an issue, we don't have recent usage statistics to make solid arguments to this either way. We can, however, safely say that the presence of gengar must be considered with every team. That said, the same is true of Scizor, Genesect, Garchomp, Mega Kangkaskhan, Talonflame, Baton Pass Leads, etc, etc, etc. Any strong pokemon or pokemon type should be considered while building a team. You can't just arbitrarily jam pokemon together and expect the team to do well. Good teams have answers to everything, or at least answers to everything they need to answer- that's what makes them good.

Playstyle:
Again, with the freshness of the metagame and lack of recent usage statistics, we are limited to personal experiences on the ladder, which don't really hold much water as even someone who has played 100+ games has only seen a tiny fraction of the metagame. I can not comment on this with any amount of authority until smogon puts up more usage stats.

Sorry for the extreme length of these two posts (link to the first half: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...on-read-post-383.3493175/page-35#post-5012992) but I wanted to give detailed and accurate responses so that the discussion remains coherent and reasonable, and so that my arguments have weight and will (hopefully) not get ignored/randomly naysay'd.

Volt-Turners:

Post-Pokebank, every good team carries a Genesect check. In fact, if you can use your Mega Gengar to trap and kill the other guy's Genesect check, you can win from there. Genesect+Dugtrio worked really well in Gen V, forcing people to use Shed Shell Heatran. So, Mega Gengar isn't just hurt by VoltTurn, it benefits immensely from VoltTurn itself.

Rotom-W can Volt Switch out before Mega Gengar hits if it is Scarfed, but I am noticing a distinct lack of Scarfed Rotom-Ws recently, since all of them seem to be running physical bulk for Talonflame and Aegislash, and Will-O-Wisp too. Also have fun Tricking a Scarf onto Mega Gengar (hint: you can't). The only reason I ever have Mega Gengar face a Rotom-W is when I'm trying to set up a Talonflame sweep, in which case it can weaken it into Talonflame's +2 Sky Plate Brave Bird's KO range. Otherwise, I do have a Rotom-W check, every good team does.

Scizor dies to HP Fire. If Gengar is not running HP Fire, I'm not going to face Scizor. When I need to Mega up, I Sub and switch out.

lol Jolteon. Not only can it not outspeed Mega Gengar unless it is running Timid, but it ties if it is, and dies right away to any of Mega Gengar's attacks. But then again, I usually have another one of my mons deal with it, and Talonflame does OHKO it with Brave Bird at +2 so it's not walling anything anytime soon.

Gengar already fears Crobat anyways thanks to Infiltrator, and I'm certainly not going to trap that thing.

A lot of Gliscor don't use U-Turn, in fact most don't.

If Scarf Landorus-T is really common, I'll just switch out of it. And I noticed it was really common in BW2, so I'll always be prepared for Scarf.

Over-centralization:

We're trying to ban him under the support clause. I don't think Smogon has banned anything because of over-centralization iirc.

Playstyle:

At this point we already know Mega Gengar shits on stall, and as such is damaging to the OU metagame.

you're not saying anything new. I have noted these things. You basically quote me in the support role, and escavalier is also metioned as being a centralizing option. Don't try to disprove my points with my own arguments please. As far as switches, please see the volt turn section of my second post. If we assume stealth rocks, gengar using sub to block pursuit loses 30+% of its health just by switching out, as both teams are allowed stealth rocks. Again, the point of my response was to address what was mentioned, which is ignoring pursuit and skill level and just talking raw numbers and mons. The safe switches section is also mostly addressing the turn when gengar megas, cuz that turn has to happen every single game. With heracross specifically I already noted that pursuit on it is a centralized choice, and 78% rock blast if fine if we count rocks/substitute damage, since you're including rocks in all of your calculations. I already SAID metagross is ohko'd by shadow ball now. I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not you actually read my post.

Yes, I very carefully read your post. Or at least most of it thanks to being a wall of text. And also I didn't address skill, I said 50/50 prediction games are not a good way to kill Gengar. And I'm really just talking about when Gengar Megas, there's a lot of things he can trap at 70% or 100% and I don't really care what his HP is at once I'm Mega'd. The only other situation is when it's done killing something, at which point IDC what happens to it since I can now sweep. I'm not trying to beat every Pursuit user one-on-one with Mega Gengar. I'm certainly not trying to beat Goodra with him.

What I'm saying is that a lot of those situations are not surefire ways to beat Mega Gengar.
 
I posted a long post with detailed numbers and pokemon on page 35 if you'd like to read it and respond specifically to any of my points; http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...on-read-post-383.3493175/page-35#post-5012992

edit: specifically on the point of ttar, if the gengar in question doesnt have focus blast, gengar can not fight ttar. While common, it is not on every gengar set. Gengar without focus blast gets annihilated by bisharp/ttar, and with focus blast still dies hard to spD scizor. (and this is assming switch ins, whereas gengar wants no part of any of these mons in any sort of 1v1 scenario)

My point was mainly that even when you decide you need to check it, its still not going down with doing massive damage to the opposing team. Yes Scizor checks it, Focus blast is too common for us to consider it not having it. GegaMengar will do its job (when played properly) No matter what your opponent does. This is the central issue. ask yourselves, should that be allowed? If so then everyone HAS to run a pursuit trapper named scizor to make sure that they have a surefire check to Gengar, overcentralizing the metagame, meaning that it will get banned later due to this. The stone needs to go!
 
You're not saying anything new. I have noted these things. You basically quote me in the support role, and escavalier is also metioned as being a centralizing option. Don't try to disprove my points with my own arguments please. As far as switches, please see the volt turn section of my second post. If we assume stealth rocks, gengar using sub to block pursuit loses 30+% of its health just by switching out, as both teams are allowed stealth rocks. Again, the point of my response was to address what was mentioned, which is ignoring prediction and skill level and just talking raw numbers and mons. The safe switches section is also mostly addressing the turn when gengar megas, cuz that turn has to happen every single game. With heracross specifically I already noted that pursuit on it is a centralized choice, and 78% rock blast if fine if we count rocks/substitute damage, since you're including rocks in all of your calculations. I already SAID metagross is ohko'd by shadow ball now. I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not you actually read my post.
Going off your post about pursuit trappers, almost all of those Pokemon are not viable on any team comp except for dealing with Mengar. That is a huge handcuff to put on a team if they are playing a team that doesn't run Mengar, basically making it 5v6. Scizor is one of my favorite Pokemon, but I'm more than against a Metagame where you have to run either Scizor or TTar to have any chance of getting a team high on the ladder.
 
Going off your post about pursuit trappers, almost all of those Pokemon are not viable on any team comp except for dealing with Mengar. That is a huge handcuff to put on a team if they are playing a team that doesn't run Mengar, basically making it 5v6. Scizor is one of my favorite Pokemon, but I'm more than against a Metagame where you have to run either Scizor or TTar to have any chance of getting a team high on the ladder.

Almost all of them? Scizor and tyranitar are very commonly used. Pursuit trapping is also not a very popular thing in the metagame currently, and the not used status of those pokemon is noted in my post. I addressed that issue specifically. Also the idea of tiers is currently skewed as there are currently only two: OU and Ubers. The other tiers are based on usage statistics which we do not currently have, again noted in my post.

As to the guy talking about volt turn being useful for gengar. Yes it is, but that is not the point of this thread. We are discussing answers to mega gengar as opposed to a teambuilding thread. Just because volt turners exist on gengar's team doesnt invalidate the usefulness of other volt turners for escaping gengar and setting up favorable matchups to deal with gengar. Gengar can switch out to a volt turner, but we don't lose momentum, because we volt turned into our gengar check/pursuit counter. Again, not saying gengar isn't strong on a volt turn team, it's just not the issue at hand. Volt turn allows one to escape mega gengar. This fact does not get invalidated by gengar having volt turning team mates.
 
Almost all of them? Scizor and tyranitar are very commonly used. Pursuit trapping is also not a very popular thing in the metagame currently, and the not used status of those pokemon is noted in my post. I addressed that issue specifically. Also the idea of tiers is currently skewed as there are currently only two: OU and Ubers. The other tiers are based on usage statistics which we do not currently have, again noted in my post.

As to the guy talking about volt turn being useful for gengar. Yes it is, but that is not the point of this thread. We are discussing answers to mega gengar as opposed to a teambuilding thread. Just because volt turners exist on gengar's team doesnt invalidate the usefulness of other volt turners for escaping gengar and setting up favorable matchups to deal with gengar. Gengar can switch out to a volt turner, but we don't lose momentum, because we volt turned into our gengar check/pursuit counter. Again, not saying gengar isn't strong on a volt turn team, it's just not the issue at hand. Volt turn allows one to escape mega gengar. This fact does not get invalidated by gengar having volt turning team mates.

I noted that Scizor and Tyranitar aren't surefire kills on Mega Gengar thanks to its giant movepool.

And about VoltTurn: You can't just ignore the hindering aspect without bringing up the helping aspect. It's like saying Ledian is broken because once it sets up Dual Screens you can sweep. And I don't think VoltTurn hinders Mega Gengar as much as it helps it, since Mega Gengar chooses who it traps, and if it traps something without Volt/Turn it's getting the kill.
 
Almost all of them? Scizor and tyranitar are very commonly used. Pursuit trapping is also not a very popular thing in the metagame currently, and the not used status of those pokemon is noted in my post. I addressed that issue specifically. Also the idea of tiers is currently skewed as there are currently only two: OU and Ubers. The other tiers are based on usage statistics which we do not currently have, again noted in my post.

As to the guy talking about volt turn being useful for gengar. Yes it is, but that is not the point of this thread. We are discussing answers to mega gengar as opposed to a teambuilding thread. Just because volt turners exist on gengar's team doesnt invalidate the usefulness of other volt turners for escaping gengar and setting up favorable matchups to deal with gengar. Gengar can switch out to a volt turner, but we don't lose momentum, because we volt turned into our gengar check/pursuit counter. Again, not saying gengar isn't strong on a volt turn team, it's just not the issue at hand. Volt turn allows one to escape mega gengar. This fact does not get invalidated by gengar having volt turning team mates.
2 out of 6 is hardly noteworthy though. And needing to run 1 of the two mons to even have a chance out outplaying a Mengar into setting up for its team is hardly fair to people building teams.
 
I've not played much 6th gen due to the release of BF4, but I have played with and against my fair shares of Mega-Gengar. As of now, I do think it should be banned simply because of Shadow Tag. Gengar will, in my opinion, be the best trapper in all of Pokemon. Goth jumped from NU to BL simply because of its ability. It lacks the resistances, speed, and special attack to make it do any real damage unless to specific threats; however, Gengar has these qualities. It is very fast, has ridiculous STAB coverage, and great Special Attack...AND Shadow Tag It puts pokes like Chandelure basically to shame.

Though I am not too adamant about whether it stays or not, I think it should go to Ubers to see how it performs there first.
 
Gengar already fears Crobat anyways thanks to Infiltrator, and I'm certainly not going to trap that thing.

A lot of Gliscor don't use U-Turn, in fact most don't.

If Scarf Landorus-T is really common, I'll just switch out of it. And I noticed it was really common in BW2, so I'll always be prepared for Scarf.

Just to pull out a few quotes, you dismiss a few of these because they aren't / might not be common, but that's an assumption you're making about the metagame that we cannot know without a suspect test, and indeed testing might turn up the volume of (e.g.) U-Turn Gliscor, Scarf Landorus-T, et al and show that these are effective preparations against teams that rely on M-Gengar. The same is true of other potential Pursuit trappers such as Honchkrow, and I should note that addressing some of the more effective Pursuit trapping options is the only time you bothered to mention SR (against the Pursuit trappers, as it supports your claim). While it's nice to remember SR when you're attempting to naysay M-Gengar Pursuit trappers, you might also want to keep it in mind for M-Gengar himself. Coming and going when he pleases (as pro-banners often say he does), making Substitutes along the way, is going to take a toll if SR is up against M-Gengar. Never mind that Sticky Web can cause problems due to M-Gengar's relative frailty as well.

Unfortunately I need to bail for now, but I'm psyched to see discussion picking up. Good arguments on both sides :)
 
Again, pursuit trappers are not the only answer. There aren't 2 viable answers to mega gengar, there are two viable pursuit trap answers to mega gengar. Many of the scarfers, most noteably garchomp genesect and lando-T can also answer megar. Rotom can act as a defensive pivot to bring in an answer/check to gengar unharmed (like a scarfer or ttar or scizor), and there are plenty of focus sash users that threaten gengar as well. The long wall of text that takes up 2 posts is my answer, not just any given section. Also those two posts are my response to a specific post, the post they quote, and not the be all end all of my thought process and argument. Those were topics asked for in a post, and so I gave my thoughts on those topics.

Edit: I'm not ignoring the helpful aspect of volt turn for mega gengar, but if it takes volt turn for gengar to be broken, then it's not broken on its own, and doesn't deserve a ban. E.G.: drizzle swim was banned, but not swift swim or drizzle separately. Though I don't forsee a u-turn+shadow tag ban, my point is that if its not broken individually I dont see it worth a ban. This thread is about whether or not to ban mega gengar, and reasons to ban it or not ban it, and specific teams it's good on do not constitute an argument for or against banning gengar itself.
 
Just to pull out a few quotes, you dismiss a few of these because they aren't / might not be common, but that's an assumption you're making about the metagame that we cannot know without a suspect test, and indeed testing might turn up the volume of (e.g.) U-Turn Gliscor, Scarf Landorus-T, et al and show that these are effective preparations against teams that rely on M-Gengar. The same is true of other potential Pursuit trappers such as Honchkrow, and I should note that addressing some of the more effective Pursuit trapping options is the only time you bothered to mention SR (against the Pursuit trappers, as it supports your claim). While it's nice to remember SR when you're attempting to naysay M-Gengar Pursuit trappers, you might also want to keep it in mind for M-Gengar himself. Coming and going when he pleases (as pro-banners often say he does), making Substitutes along the way, is going to take a toll if SR is up against M-Gengar. Never mind that Sticky Web can cause problems due to M-Gengar's relative frailty as well.

Unfortunately I need to bail for now, but I'm psyched to see discussion picking up. Good arguments on both sides :)

I said Scarf Landorus-T is pretty common, or at least was in BW2. If it isn't now that means the meta has shifted away from it.

If the meta has shifted away from such things than those things aren't viable anymore (U-Turn Gliscor dies to Gengar quickly anyways). Crobat is pretty common nowadays, but I always switch out of him anyways. No need to risk speed ties.

I will never let my Mega Gengar fight a Pursuit user one-on-one. And if I'm trapping something weak to it it doesn't matter if I'm at 20% or 90%, it's still dead.

Also I have yet to see a good player of Sticky Web in OU. There is probably someone who uses it well but not that many people can do so.

Again, pursuit trappers are not the only answer. There aren't 2 viable answers to mega gengar, there are two viable pursuit trap answers to mega gengar. Many of the scarfers, most noteably garchomp genesect and lando-T can also answer megar. Rotom can act as a defensive pivot to bring in an answer/check to gengar unharmed (like a scarfer or ttar or scizor), and there are plenty of focus sash users that threaten gengar as well. The long wall of text that takes up 2 posts is my answer, not just any given section. Also those two posts are my response to a specific post, the post they quote, and not the be all end all of my thought process and argument. Those were topics asked for in a post, and so I gave my thoughts on those topics.

Yes, they are answers, but Tyranitar is only an answer 50% of the time, and not even that if it's weakened. Scizor is not an answer if Gengar has HP Fire, which some do. I will never keep my Gengar in on a Garchomp until I'm sure that it's not Scarfed, and likewise with anything else that commonly runs a Scarf. Again, you might surprise me with a Scarf Starmie but there is no way I'm staying in on your Noivern. Unless it's lategame and all your counters to the Scarfer are dead, in which case you probably either made a mistake in teambuilding or earlier in the battle. Or you lost your counters to your opponent's Mega Gengar.

Focus Sash threatens Mega Gengar but it's not that hard to keep SR up. The only good Focus Sash users are leads and Alakazam anyways...
 
You're missing a very important key fact.

While it's true that people will have to turn to other Megas to fill the Mega slot if Gengarite gets banned, NOTHING FORCES YOU TO USE THE MEGA SLOT.

If Mega-Scizor is not in itself broken or overpowered to a ridiculous degree, then people aren't going to run it regularly, even if it is the ONLY MEGA AVAILIBLE. They will just STOP RUNNING MEGAS ALTOGETHER.

Why is this so hard to realize? If there is only one Mega which is unbanned and remains in competitive play, yes, it is going to be the only competition for the Mega Slot. But having a Mega AT ALL is optional. If that "one viable Mega" is not broken, not everyone is going to run it. Since doing so would greatly increase how predictable you are and limit your team building options to those which support the Mega.

Firstly, please stop talking in caps and generally as if you're talking to a demented 5-year old. It may be that some of this topic has exasperated you, but please take into consideration not everyone has posted already. Don't assume everyone on the non-ban side is an idiot by default.

To address your post, you obviously missed my point, which was merely that mega-evolutions are a brand-new aspect of a new generation and it would be a shame to get rid of it without further testing after less than two months, which is what is bound to happen to the most viable megas once the bandwagon starts rolling.

Here's the thing. What bearing does being a Mega Pokemon actually have on the game that makes you want to treat it differently? Is bluffing Gengarite when I'm SubSplit LO any different than luring Ferrothorn in on Expert Belt HP Fire Rotom-W?

I don't think it should be treated differently in the long run, but its an additional option that adds a new dimension to battles. Why not test it further?

Also, not seeing Kangaskan and Gengar on every other team means that other, lesser Megas get used more often, metagame diversifies, etc. Right now, if you aren't using one if those two you're gimping yourself.

Let's hope so, though it could just as well be that they'll just be replaced by mega-megawile and mega-scizor, who dominate from then on. Time will tell I guess.
 
I said Scarf Landorus-T is pretty common, or at least was in BW2. If it isn't now that means the meta has shifted away from it.

If the meta has shifted away from such things than those things aren't viable anymore (U-Turn Gliscor dies to Gengar quickly anyways). Crobat is pretty common nowadays, but I always switch out of him anyways. No need to risk speed ties.

I will never let my Mega Gengar fight a Pursuit user one-on-one. And if I'm trapping something weak to it it doesn't matter if I'm at 20% or 90%, it's still dead.

Also I have yet to see a good player of Sticky Web in OU. There is probably someone who uses it well but not that many people can do so.



Yes, they are answers, but Tyranitar is only an answer 50% of the time, and not even that if it's weakened. Scizor is not an answer if Gengar has HP Fire, which some do. I will never keep my Gengar in on a Garchomp until I'm sure that it's not Scarfed, and likewise with anything else that commonly runs a Scarf. Again, you might surprise me with a Scarf Starmie but there is no way I'm staying in on your Noivern. Unless it's lategame and all your counters to the Scarfer are dead, in which case you probably either made a mistake in teambuilding or earlier in the battle. Or you lost your counters to your opponent's Mega Gengar.

Focus Sash threatens Mega Gengar but it's not that hard to keep SR up. The only good Focus Sash users are leads and Alakazam anyways...

You aren't expected to stay in on garchomp. The point is that scarfers simultaneously threaten your sweep potential and they threaten gengar (your answer to sweep blockers, at least as it has been toted so far this thread in being a support mon). Again, just as gengar doesn't need to answer every single threat, neither do its checks need to answer every single gengar. Any gengar running hp fire is not going to threaten your blissey. My point here being if you design these theoretical gengars to answer gengar counters, your gengar won't really deal with the thing it was designed to in the first place. A gengar designed to kill gengar counters seems really pointless to me. Just as gengars are designed to kill walls and other problem mons, so are revenge killers, pursuit trappers, scarfers, and priority mons.
 
The thing is, MegaGengar will destroy you usally, If you are not prepared to face him. Sure there is Crobat, who I believe is the only way to actually maybe put stop to him, attacking MegaGengar with him wouldn't be the best idea ethier, doesn't MegaGengar outspeed him?
Pursiute trapping can work on him, but he usally outspeeds them anyways and OHKO's them.
Priority is a good way to stop mega Gengar, but what if he survives the hit? You are likely Dead now because Mega Gengar used subsitute and will kill you from behind it, or a SE move.

I believe Priority Brave bird And priority scarfers or scarfed trappers kill MGengar tho
 
Firstly, please stop talking in caps and generally as if you're talking to a demented 5-year old. It may be that some of this topic has exasperated you, but please take into consideration not everyone has posted already. Don't assume everyone on the non-ban side is an idiot by default.

To address your post, you obviously missed my point, which was merely that mega-evolutions are a brand-new aspect of a new generation and it would be a shame to get rid of it without further testing after less than two months, which is what is bound to happen to the most viable megas once the bandwagon starts rolling.



I don't think it should be treated differently in the long run, but its an additional option that adds a new dimension to battles. Why not test it further?



Let's hope so, though it could just as well be that they'll just be replaced by mega-megawile and mega-scizor, who dominate from then on. Time will tell I guess.

Mega Evolutions are something new, yes, but you don't have to be in the 10-year-old mentality of "OMG WHAT'S A PACHIRISU LET'S GO SEE IF I CAN USE IT". Dedenne is new. Carbink is new. Does that mean people are going to use them? No.

If something is broken, we ban it. It doesn't matter if it's new or not. By your argument, we should test out Xerneas and Yveltal in OU some more to see if anything can do something to them! And while we're at it, Mewtwo as well, and Moody, and...you see where this is going?

If we ban Mega Gengar, and maybe Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Scizor might be used on 40% of teams but there's plenty of ways to play around it and beat it. Or Mega Mawile. But you don't simply play around Mega Gengar.

You aren't expected to stay in on garchomp. The point is that scarfers simultaneously threaten your sweep potential and they threaten gengar (your answer to sweep blockers, at least as it has been toted so far this thread in being a support mon). Again, just as gengar doesn't need to answer every single threat, neither do its checks need to answer every single gengar. Any gengar running hp fire is not going to threaten your blissey. My point here being if you design these theoretical gengars to answer gengar counters, your gengar won't really deal with the thing it was designed to in the first place. A gengar designed to kill gengar counters seems really pointless to me. Just as gengars are designed to kill walls and other problem mons, so are revenge killers, pursuit trappers, scarfers, and priority mons.

About the Blissey--I use Taunt. What do you do.

Also, stop using the word counter. We've established already that there are zero counters to this.

And using one move to deal with some of its usual checks is not a bad thing, Shuca Berry Icy Wind Jirachi taught us that in Gen V.

Sacrificing one moveslot to Substitute is not a bad idea. Sacrificing one moveslot to HP Fire is not a bad idea. It all depends on what you want to kill, and you can never be sure what kind of Gengar you are facing.
 
Mega Evolutions are something new, yes, but you don't have to be in the 10-year-old mentality of "OMG WHAT'S A PACHIRISU LET'S GO SEE IF I CAN USE IT". Dedenne is new. Carbink is new. Does that mean people are going to use them? No.

If something is broken, we ban it. It doesn't matter if it's new or not. By your argument, we should test out Xerneas and Yveltal in OU some more to see if anything can do something to them! And while we're at it, Mewtwo as well, and Moody, and...you see where this is going?

If we ban Mega Gengar, and maybe Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Scizor might be used on 40% of teams but there's plenty of ways to play around it and beat it. Or Mega Mawile. But you don't simply play around Mega Gengar.



About the Blissey--I use Taunt. What do you do.

Also, stop using the word counter. We've established already that there are zero counters to this.

And using one move to deal with some of its usual checks is not a bad thing, Shuca Berry Icy Wind Jirachi taught us that in Gen V.

Sacrificing one moveslot to Substitute is not a bad idea. Sacrificing one moveslot to HP Fire is not a bad idea. It all depends on what you want to kill, and you can never be sure what kind of Gengar you are facing.

I'm not against sac'ing one move to deal with a trouble mon. But if youre running hp fire, taunt, and substitute, suddenly theres a world of pokemon you have trouble dealing with. Sorry for using the word counter, as it really only applies to pursuiters, but you know what I mean. And you do have the ability to play around mega gengar. I don't want to go into theoretical play land, but gengar doesn't just switch in to anything arbitrary and mega evo. It's not hard, but you have to play carefully, just as your opponent does. Gengar can sac one moveslot to deal with a problem mon, this is true, but no gengar can handle EVERY problem mon. While this does contribute to the coinflippy feel some attribute to team matchups this gen, it is not the argument at hand. People use the argument that even non mega'd, nothing wants to switch into gengar and get 2hkod during the switch/transform turn. People used the same argument about hydreigon, nothing being able to dodge getting 2hko'd, and hydreigon did not get banned. Not saying your points don't hold value, I just don't think they hold ban-worthy value, which is the point of this discussion.
 
The thing about the few Pokemon that beat Mega Gengar is that none of them can actually stop a well played Gengar from doing its job. Sure, you can Pursuit trap it, but you can almost always only do so after it has already taken out one your Pokemon, possibly even your only win condition in some cases. It's essentially the ability to pick one or possibly even more of your opponent's Pokemon and remove it from their team as if it didn't exist. This wouldn't be as big of a deal if it weren't for the fact that the Mega Gengar user has complete control over what it gets to remove. If that somehow wasn't enough, its versatility is huge. Heck, even the mere existence of any Gengar on the opposing team, whether it be scarf, sub disable with leftovers, or any of the 200 variants of Mega Gengar, deters some Pokemon from switching in to the battle at all, particularly if said Pokemon is a team's only way of stopping a particular sweeper on the opponent's team. This may even severely alter the way a team plays, even if it's just a regular Gengar. The point is, the number of Pokemon that can beat Mega Gengar is small enough as it is, but the number of Pokemon that can consistently stop it from doing its job is close to zero.
 
I'm not against sac'ing one move to deal with a trouble mon. But if youre running hp fire, taunt, and substitute, suddenly theres a world of pokemon you have trouble dealing with. Sorry for using the word counter, as it really only applies to pursuiters, but you know what I mean. And you do have the ability to play around mega gengar. I don't want to go into theoretical play land, but gengar doesn't just switch in to anything arbitrary and mega evo. It's not hard, but you have to play carefully, just as your opponent does. Gengar can sac one moveslot to deal with a problem mon, this is true, but no gengar can handle EVERY problem mon. While this does contribute to the coinflippy feel some attribute to team matchups this gen, it is not the argument at hand. People use the argument that even non mega'd, nothing wants to switch into gengar and get 2hkod during the switch/transform turn. People used the same argument about hydreigon, nothing being able to dodge getting 2hko'd, and hydreigon did not get banned. Not saying your points don't hold value, I just don't think they hold ban-worthy value, which is the point of this discussion.

I don't know anyone who would run HP Fire, Taunt, and Substitute. I certainly wouldn't run HP Fire and Sub on the same set since they're both for beating Scizor. Also what part of Shadow Tag don't you get--Pursuiters can't switch in and don't even counter him without Shadow Tag, since he can Sub. Taunt+Sub is even a very viable set for destroying stall teams. Also you can handle every problem mon for your sweeper. For example, Talonflame only needs Rotom-W removed before trying to sweep, Salamence only needs Fairies and some Steels removed first, etc. Unless you're trying to use SD Ledian, there won't be that many teams that have more than one or two mons that can stop your sweeper, and a good sweeper only has ~3-4 mons in OU that can reliably stop its sweep. Your Mega Gengar only needs to kill those 3-4 or maybe 5 mons. If covering all your sweeper's counters is really hard for you, then try other sweepers.

Also I only responded to your posts. If you want to see good pro-ban points look at any of the posts ginga linked back somewhere--I don't want to repeat them all and there's no point in repeating them all.
 
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