God vs Science

[Brain]

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

That's a Christian site (biased) lacking references (not serious) failing to provide a context for the quotes (if context is important when people attack Christianity then I sure as fuck expect to see the ten lines preceding and following each excerpt on that site), not to mention that the excerpts are either trivial, exceedingly vague or are interpreted in an outlandish manner. The great majority of these excerpts are things that a reasonably skilled poet of that time could write, so to present them as evidence of the scientific accuracy of the Bible is an insult to any rational person's intelligence.

I swear some day I'm just going to take a random work of fiction and I'll apply the same complete lack of rigor Bible inerrantists use in order to prove that my chosen work of fiction is, too, inerrant. Same for prophecies. I'm sure I can find an obscure reference to the Internet in thousands of ancient books. Suffices that they say something like "and everybody will be able to communicate with each other", right? Or "the word of X will reach out to the ends of the Earth". What isn't a prophecy when it's interpreted right?

 

[.//enigma]

I'm confused. Why the hell are we having a Bible discussion? This is a God discussion. God is not limited to a Bible, otherwise you are contradicting your own "good book." As for the Bible, we are entitled to our own opinions, but who was the author of the Bible? God / Jesus surely did not write it, so who did and how can we trust her/him? Religion is to help you believe that you actually know what happened, why we are here, how we are here. But it is not our duty to know, we do not have the right to know. Who granted us the right to know? The simple fact is, you're here, you don't know why and you probably never will. So we have to just make the best of it. We can only have faith (or lack thereof) in God.

The bolded part is the only thing that made sense to me in your post.

And the first 4 sentences.

Also, we continuously bash the Bible and show you things that are proved false in the Bible. And you continously give us answers like "you misunderstood it" or "you translated it wrong" or "BIG METAPHOR".

Seriously, we can't get anywhere in this debate when you are acting like a stubborn little child who hates being proved wrong, but knows that it will inevitably happen.

 

[Eraddd]

That's a Christian site (biased) lacking references (not serious) failing to provide a context for the quotes (if context is important when people attack Christianity then I sure as fuck expect to see the ten lines preceding and following each excerpt on that site), not to mention that the excerpts are either trivial, exceedingly vague or are interpreted in an outlandish manner. The great majority of these excerpts are things that a reasonably skilled poet of that time could write, so to present them as evidence of the scientific accuracy of the Bible is an insult to any rational person's intelligence.

I swear some day I'm just going to take a random work of fiction and I'll apply the same complete lack of rigor Bible inerrantists use in order to prove that my chosen work of fiction is, too, inerrant. Same for prophecies. I'm sure I can find an obscure reference to the Internet in thousands of ancient books. Suffices that they say something like "and everybody will be able to communicate with each other", right? Or "the word of X will reach out to the ends of the Earth". What isn't a prophecy when it's interpreted right?

I'm sorry, but as a Christian, I have to agree with this post. That website has absolutely no credibility at all. I'm not saying that they are completely wrong; they have some good stuff there. But the biases, the idiocy, the red neckedness just completely makes me laugh.

 

[Lethe]

So then the basic point of this thread, if I'm not mistaken, is for atheists to nitpick, and then Hero or some other Christian to point out that the translations for the bible probably suck, or at least that's what it's degenerated into.

this hasn't accomplished anything, why not simply debate on a philosophical level (which means stop nitpicking, (BAN ME PLEASE)s, it doesn't matter) on why God does or does not exist, for you athiests, fight a theory with theorys, not with facts, for Christians, strengthen an idea with an ideas.

let's get back into stuff like:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

[Eraddd]

The bolded part is the only thing that made sense to me in your post.

And the first 4 sentences.

Also, we continuously bash the Bible and show you things that are proved false in the Bible. And you continously give us answers like "you misunderstood it" or "you translated it wrong" or "BIG METAPHOR".

Well since we should take the bible literally instead of metaphorically as we are trying to say, I guess we are literally branches and are interconnected with Jesus, the vine. Empirically doesn't make sense. Sometimes, common sense plays a huge role in interpretation hmm? Try throwing away some of those biases and try understanding.

Seriously, we can't get anywhere in this debate when you are acting like a stubborn little child who hates being proved wrong, but knows that it will inevitably happen.

This was his first post, saying his opinion. How the hell is he acting like a little baby? His post made sense more than yours ever had.

Bolded.

 

[.//enigma]

I wasn't talking to Assassin. And you are questioning MY common sense?

 

[Eraddd]

I wasn't talking to Assassin. And you are questioning MY common sense?

Obviously not. I was questioning the guy beside you.

 

[Lexite]

let's get back into stuff like:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

This idea is so backwards. He is willing and able to prevent evil, he can do whatever he wants to do. The reason why he doesn't is because we dont want it. He wants to protect us but to do that we have to follow him to get his full protection. He has rules, he wouldnt be just if he bent the rules to let some one slip in. A just judge has to he just at all times.

He wants to prevent evil but he wants to let us decide. It isnt the same if someone is your friend because someone told them they have to be, that doesnt feel right, same goes here. He doesnt want to force us to follow him like a robot as others in here have said, he wants us to come to him.

And Erraddd, some of it is metaphorical and some is actual and some is symbolic. Jesus doesnt want us to cut off our arm if we sin with it, it is simply a symbol of how important it is. A person knowledgeable in the scriptures knows what is symbolic and what is actual as it is a matter of context. If a person is unsure they seek the answer.

 

[Lethe]

^
Wouldn't it be muuuch easier for us as a species to come to him if his believers didn't go and kill innocents in his name? Wouldn't it be easier if his church, that is, God's house, wasn't so corrupt? Wouldn't it be much easier to believe in god if feelings of despair and abandonedness as a life spirals away didn't exist?

Moreover, his "children" that don't believe in him that get murdered, well, they don't go to heaven, odd but, if there was no evil to kill them, then they may have had an opportunity to find God, and through him, find heaven.

what about those that have died before Christianity and Buddhism were established...

I understand where the choice part comes from, but if God allows us to hurt ourselves and screw ourselves out of eternal life, then he really seems a bit malevolent.

 

[Thisaccountwashackedlol]

God wants us to choose him

I have a serious question then. However, first let me make three statements.

1. God wants us to choose him, instead of forcing us to choose him.
2. God is omnipresent.
3. God is omnipotent.

Let us pretend that Atheists are both blind and deaf. They cannot sense God, and as a result question his existence, or just plain out refuse to believe in it. God has the ability to cure their blindness/deafness. He can make them see him and hear him. He can perform a miracle that is unexplainable by natural laws. He could literally create a magical laser light show for them that would in the end spell out "Hello [name], this is God. I just wanted to let you know that I exist."

I'm dead serious. If God with his limitless power did that for me I would never again question his existence. It sounds childish, but it would work. And God being omnipresent should realize this.

However God does not do this. He allows these people to remain blind and deaf. God has the power. God knows that some of his children are blind and deaf. So why does God refuse to go the extra mile to prove to them that he exists?

 

[Eraddd]

And Erraddd, some of it is metaphorical and some is actual and some is symbolic. Jesus doesnt want us to cut off our arm if we sin with it, it is simply a symbol of how important it is. A person knowledgeable in the scriptures knows what is symbolic and what is actual as it is a matter of context. If a person is unsure they seek the answer.

I know. I was just being sarcastic.

 

[Lexite]

He does speak to the blind and deaf. He came down himself and spoke to them and healed them of their blindness and deafness and they followed. Only not everyone did. God did speak to his people himself a number of times in the old testament, still his people did not listen to him. He sent down a pillar of fire and still some did not believe. Are you serious when you say that you would listen if God did start to talk to you, or would you be like the rest?

He does things for us to show us that he is here all the time, if you are able to notice it.

He went the extra mile. He sacrificed for us to save us, that is what Jesus is all about.

And Lethe, before there was Christianity there was Judaism. The Hebrews that followed God and were waiting for his Messiah were covered. Jesus died for them aswell. As for Buddhists, I would just assume that they would have still done the same thing they were doing before and after Buddha became enlightened.

 

[Lethe]

^ You mean, he does things for us all the time, if we're willing to attribute them to God.

 

[HeroMasaki]

I have a serious question then. However, first let me make three statements.

1. God wants us to choose him, instead of forcing us to choose him.
2. God is omnipresent.
3. God is omnipotent.

Let us pretend that Atheists are both blind and deaf. They cannot sense God, and as a result question his existence, or just plain out refuse to believe in it. God has the ability to cure their blindness/deafness. He can make them see him and hear him. He can perform a miracle that is unexplainable by natural laws. He could literally create a magical laser light show for them that would in the end spell out "Hello [name], this is God. I just wanted to let you know that I exist."

I'm dead serious. If God with his limitless power did that for me I would never again question his existence. It sounds childish, but it would work. And God being omnipresent should realize this.

However God does not do this. He allows these people to remain blind and deaf. God has the power. God knows that some of his children are blind and deaf. So why does God refuse to go the extra mile to prove to them that he exists?

That would defeat the purpose entirely. God already went the extra mile to prove he exists. He came down to the level of a human just die for a price that he had no obligation paying. He had to take on the penalty of every sin that had been committed, being committed and will be committed. All of it. The Pain, the Stress, the Guilt etc. until finally his death. He never had to do it. We never asked him to do it. We cursed him and still curse him to this day for doing it. Even though he knew he would be denied, even though he knew people would believe in him, he deemed it worth it even if just one man could be saved. Isn't that enough to prove his love and by extension his existence? In the same position, would you do the same? Why should he have to create "a beam of light" when he's done so much more meaningful and powerful things just to prove his existence? Instead of a beam of light, just look at the stars at night, or a raging ocean, even a tree swaying in the wind. That's more than enough proof right there of his existence.

 

[.//enigma]

This idea is so backwards. He is willing and able to prevent evil, he can do whatever he wants to do. The reason why he doesn't is because we dont want it. He wants to protect us but to do that we have to follow him to get his full protection. He has rules, he wouldnt be just if he bent the rules to let some one slip in. A just judge has to he just at all times.

He wants to prevent evil but he wants to let us decide. It isnt the same if someone is your friend because someone told them they have to be, that doesnt feel right, same goes here. He doesnt want to force us to follow him like a robot as others in here have said, he wants us to come to him.

And Erraddd, some of it is metaphorical and some is actual and some is symbolic. Jesus doesnt want us to cut off our arm if we sin with it, it is simply a symbol of how important it is. A person knowledgeable in the scriptures knows what is symbolic and what is actual as it is a matter of context. If a person is unsure they seek the answer.

This is obviously your interpretation of the Bible.

I have a serious question then. However, first let me make three statements.

1. God wants us to choose him, instead of forcing us to choose him.
2. God is omnipresent.
3. God is omnipotent.

Let us pretend that Atheists are both blind and deaf. They cannot sense God, and as a result question his existence, or just plain out refuse to believe in it. God has the ability to cure their blindness/deafness. He can make them see him and hear him. He can perform a miracle that is unexplainable by natural laws. He could literally create a magical laser light show for them that would in the end spell out "Hello [name], this is God. I just wanted to let you know that I exist."

I'm dead serious. If God with his limitless power did that for me I would never again question his existence. It sounds childish, but it would work. And God being omnipresent should realize this.

However God does not do this. He allows these people to remain blind and deaf. God has the power. God knows that some of his children are blind and deaf. So why does God refuse to go the extra mile to prove to them that he exists?

That's the question I have always had in my mind. If he's real, and he knows I don't believe in him, and he knows I want proof, he has the ability to give me proof. So why doesn't he?

That would defeat the purpose entirely. God already went the extra mile to prove he exists. He came down to the level of a human just die for a price that he had no obligation paying. He had to take on the penalty of every sin that had been committed, being committed and will be committed. All of it. The Pain, the Stress, the Guilt etc. until finally his death. He never had to do it. We never asked him to do it. We cursed him and still curse him to this day for doing it. Even though he knew he would be denied, even though he knew people would believe in him, he deemed it worth it even if just one man could be saved. Isn't that enough to prove his love and by extension his existence? In the same position, would you do the same? Why should he have to create "a beam of light" when he's done so much more meaningful and powerful things just to prove his existence? Instead of a beam of light, just look at the stars at night, or a raging ocean, even a tree swaying in the wind. That's more than enough proof right there of his existence.

This is obviously your interpretation of the Bible.

EDIT: Instead of a beam of light, just look at the stars at night, or a raging ocean, even a tree swaying in the wind. That's more than enough proof right there of his existence.

Which goes back to the idea of proof. By saying that, you are saying God created Earth and all of its inhabitants. And he created the universe, the stars, the oceans, the trees, the wind, he created everything. That is your belief. Where is your knowledge?

 

[Thisaccountwashackedlol]

He does speak to the blind and deaf. He came down himself and spoke to them and healed them of their blindness and deafness and they followed. Only not everyone did. God did speak to his people himself a number of times in the old testament, still his people did not listen to him. He sent down a pillar of fire and still some did not believe. Are you serious when you say that you would listen if God did start to talk to you, or would you be like the rest?

He does things for us to show us that he is here all the time, if you are able to notice it.

Notice that you used the word "them." I was not there, and I do not know if Jesus Christ was actually God in human form. Why can't he do something spectacular for me? Am I being selfish? Yes, I am. But I think I am allowed to be selfish when my eternal soul is potentially at risk because God refuses to show himself specifically to me.

And no, I would not be like the rest. If a fucking pillar of fire appeared in my room along with a magical laser light show that spelled out the message I previously mentioned, I would not fucking question it. I would become a firm believer.

He does things for those that are not "blind" and "deaf." I am blind and deaf, therefore I cannot notice those things, or I need help noticing them. I want to notice these things, I really do, but God does nothing to help me. God does nothing that I myself can notice. God clearly fails to realize that every person is different. What you think is clearly an act of God may not seem like an act of God to me.

@ Heromisaki
Why should he create a beam of light for me? Because according to the Bible he loves me, and doesn't want my soul to rot in hell. If that beam of light is all I need to believe in God, all I need to prevent my soul from rotting in hell, then why can't he create it for me? It wouldn't even take a fraction of his power because he is omnipotent.

 

[lati0s]

That would defeat the purpose entirely. God already went the extra mile to prove he exists. He came down to the level of a human

The time that god supposedly came down to earth was almost 2000 years before my birth, how am I supposed to trust it with the same certainty i could trust something I directly observed

just die for a price that he had no obligation paying. He had to take on the penalty of every sin that had been committed, being committed and will be committed. All of it. The Pain, the Stress, the Guilt etc. until finally his death.

that just shows how dumb he is then, because if he was truly god he could have gotten the exact same effect without having to suffer at all.

We cursed him and still curse him to this day for doing it.

I have never heard anyone curse jesus for dying, in fact I've never met anyone who didn't think he was a pretty cool guy

Even though he knew he would be denied, even though he knew people wouldn't believe in him,

well then why does he not do more to make these people believe in him?

he deemed it worth it even if just one man could be saved. Isn't that enough to prove his love and by extension his existence?

No. because I have no proof that it happened.

In the same position, would you do the same? Why should he have to create "a beam of light"

If i was god I would make it obvious that i existed

when he's done so much more meaningful and powerful things just to prove his existence? Instead of a beam of light, just look at the stars at night, or a raging ocean, even a tree swaying in the wind. That's more than enough proof right there of his existence.

things like that have many non-god explanations, and thus are not proof of god

 

[Lexite]

No, he does things for those that are deaf and blind as well. Look at all the Atheists that have had their eyes and ears opened by him. I am sure there have been situations in your life that would be examples of God speaking to you and trying to get you to see and listen.

And also, if your soul is at risk as you said, what do you have to lose in following Christ? I cannot say I have lost much in following what God wants for my life, I am happy with my life.

 

[lati0s]

But what about the people that die as nonchristains, god knew that what he was doing would not convince them yet he did not try anything else.

 

[Lexite]

You dont know that. There could have been many examples where God was trying to get them to open the door and they refused. We have his words to us written down. Words that he said to hes people. A letter from him, and they chose to ignore it and say they don't need it.

There are many events in my life that let me know that God is there. Me being stopped or held back somewhere only to find that that delay was a wonderful thing. Something happens that I don't understand the the next day that very thing is explained.

 

[lati0s]

yes but before god even attempted that he would know it would fail, and he would also know that if he did something else then they would believe, yet he did only what he knew would fail

 

[Brain]

No, he does things for those that are deaf and blind as well. Look at all the Atheists that have had their eyes and ears opened by him. I am sure there have been situations in your life that would be examples of God speaking to you and trying to get you to see and listen.

Or, you know, God could just appear in my living room and be like "yo, dude!" Of course at first I'd think he'd be some crazy fuck who somehow managed to get in through the back door or the window, but then he would do some hardcore magic tricks and it would be all cool. We'd become best buddies. He'd tell me how I should live my life morally and if I don't get it he'd explain. We'd play Carcassonne until 3 AM, we'd talk about awesome shit like quantum physics, we'd tell each other jokes. It would be radical. Enough to make a radical TV show.

But no. He has to stick to doing ridiculous shit that I can hardly see. He has to make his interventions such that they would be indistinguishable from delusion or mental illness. We'd be bffs if only he showed up and did what it takes to prove he's right there! But hey, maybe I'm just not good enough to be his friend... maybe he's looking at me and he's like "that guy isn't cool enough, I won't make an effort for him, fuck that". And then I trip up and he helps me catch the ramp just in time and he's like "yeah that's enough he isn't worth more than that". And when I'm like why weren't you there he'd just be like "don't you remember the misstep? I helped you man. You could have broken your ankle. Anyway you go to hell." And then I'd feel pretty sad and dejected while I drown in cow dung while gnomes with heels dance on my head or something.

 

[.//enigma]

...or maybe he does not want to show up because he cannot, kind of ruining the definition of God, because he can "do everything", right?

 

[Lexite]

God stopped talking to the Hebrews for over 400 years before Jesus came. Jesus has come and God is not going to come again untill it is time. Untill then, He sent the Holy Spirit to be there for us to come to Him. He isn't going to change his plan. The Holy Spirit is enough for those to choose to follow Him. If God had to do something special to each person to ge them to follow him that would be manipulating them. He gives each person the same chance as the rest. Either we chose to follow him or not.

Also, why are you telling God he has to talk to you directly to get you to listen to him. You said he does things that you can hardly see, but you saw them, you noticed it and chose to ignore it.

 

[.//enigma]

I cannot counter that because it is from the Bible, and when someone posts something about the Bible and we (atheists) counter it, they either say we cannot prove it false (whilst they cannot prove it true) or tell us we misinterpreted it or mistranslated it or misunderstood it.