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Gods and Followers
- Thread starter Jajoken
- Start date
Splitting Shadow Tag Clause based on god/follower slot was an exception I made to the "OU clauses" thing because otherwise it blocks an entire iconic Ubers Pokemon (MGar), whereas Baton Pass Clause only blocks a play style that's not actually used on legit banned-to-Ubers Pokemon but only on sub-par supports like Smeargle or Gorebyss who then pass to said Ubers Pokemon. I could make an exception and change the code but the month is almost over and I honestly think its kind of a waste of a god slot anyways.
We're talking Gods and Followers here, not Ubers. Ubers has monstrous attackers running around, multiple on the same team, some of them outspeeding non-Scarf Kyogre by default, etc. Something like fast Calm Mind would be demented in Ubers. In Gods and Followers, it might be able to secure a sweep that Scarf-with-back-up-Water-move couldn't.
I don't see why Resttalk is better off as Primal Kyogre. Resttalk is a great strategy for several Gods otherwise lacking recovery just to take advantage of their superior bulk and excellent firepower against enemy followers -Kyogre being able to switch in, Resttalk, and switch out with a turn or two of Rain still ongoing is plenty valuable if you're a Rain team, and is a good alternative to trying to manage Wish support for it. Primal Kyogre won't provide Rain support, and the stat advantage is half-wasted into Attack. (Which in practice makes it more vulnerable to Confusion and Foul Play)
So basically what you're saying is Primal Groudon is a terrible switch into Palkia, in Ubers, unless you predict the Hydro Pump and it's choice locked. Like I said.
200 Special Defense+maxed HP isn't that far below fully Specially Defensive, either. I calced Primal Support to see how it actually fared because you brought it up -it's unreliable against Lustrous Orb. Switch over to Life Orb hitting fully Specially Defensive Primal Groudon, and there you go, Primal Groudon is back to straight-up dying. This isn't even Choiced Palkia, where it needs to win a prediction: we're back to Palkia winning the fight if it loses that initial prediction.
So: Primal Groudon has to win the prediction to not be a bad switch-in, in practice. Yes, if it wins the prediction, against Choiced in specific, then it's got a free turn to set up, awesome. In pretty much any other realistic matchup, it's bad and probably getting Primal Groudon killed.
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Sure, we're talking about GaF, but many of the sets are still viable in this format (well, except for a decent amount of Support sets, they're not that amazing, which is why the Deos like Deo-D, Deo-S and partially Deo-A are kind of... Meh). I don't see how Scarf with a second water STAB would be any worse here than in Ubers. There aren't many GaF specific God sets, so Ubers CAN make a decent base. Of course, which set is dominant, we have to wait for the usage to see. Also remember that there's not many sample God sets so Ubers is a decent base as Gods do need to worry about other Gods. I say Rest-Talk is better on Primal as Kyogre - I should have mentioned on it's own, which was daft of me in hindsight, as my biggest point about Kyogre over PKyogre is it's ability for rain teams to exist - probably has better things to be doing with it's item slot than Rest-Talk and PKyogre can beat PDon, who's a big threat to rain in general. In hindsight, they're actually about equal thanks to the rain support on Kyogre and access to Leftovers. Hindsight is 20/20, though. Forgetting, oh, I don't know, my biggest point on Kyogre v PKyogre, was dumb of me. But hey, mistakes are made by everyone.
Wait, I just realised I implied PDon is a switch in to Palkia without mentioning it can only do that on choice Hydro. What was I thinking? What I SHOULD have said is that it's a CHECK to only choice sets. Welp, live and let live I guess. To the Edit button again. I did say PDon loses to non-Choice, by the way, so I don't see the need to bring that up again personally.
Well, technically, it's a yes brainer, but same difference. The implied message is there. Non-choice Palkia is beating PDon.
Even Choiced Palkia still does a lot of damage to Groudon if it clicks the right move:
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Scarf Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Scarf Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's fairly safe clicking Dragon moves, as there are no Ground/Fairy types. (Mega) Steelix and Excadrill aren't going to switch in for obvious reasons either. No Ground type Pokémon can use Wish, so Groudon will quickly get worn down.
TL;DR - don't ever switch Groudon in on Palkia.
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Scarf Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Scarf Palkia Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's fairly safe clicking Dragon moves, as there are no Ground/Fairy types. (Mega) Steelix and Excadrill aren't going to switch in for obvious reasons either. No Ground type Pokémon can use Wish, so Groudon will quickly get worn down.
TL;DR - don't ever switch Groudon in on Palkia.
The point I was getting across is if it's already locked into Hydro Pump, then it can switch in after a sac or something. I've already said Palkia beats PDon if it's able to use Spacial Rend/locked into Spacial Rend already, iirc (I change posts a lot before I actually post them). The PDon player isn't going to risk it being Lustrous Orb unless they've already scouted what set it is. Can we just leave it at Lustrous Orb/Life Orb Palkia beats PDon teams with minimal support (unless there's some obscure Ground type Pokemon that beats Palkia)? Please?
Specially Defensive Storm Drain Gastrodon is beyond Palkia's ability to defeat without luck, unless its Specs Spacial Rend or Specs Draco Meteor. (Life Orb Draco Meteor comes close, but doesn't make the cut thanks to Leftovers)
252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 222-262 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover
Anything else is too weak to nab the KO, thanks to being off-STAB or something Gastrodon is immune to.
Palkia is a nightmare for Primal Groudon teams, but it doesn't solo them.
Welp, I know one Pokemon I'm putting on all my PDon teams, iirc it also beats Kyogre :P Sp.Def Gastro too bulky. I guess the only thing that'd let Palkia beat it quickly is HP grass, but then it sacrifices valuable coverage to maul other teams with. Then again, I don't think Gastrodon can do too much back - Earth Power, the most powerful Sp.Def Gastrodon has, is a 4HKO, and even Lustrous Orb Spacial Rend is a 3HKO (choice specs is a pretty hefty chance to 2HKO), meaning Palkia can beat it, unless, again, I'm missing a calc. However, Excadrill has a chance to OHKO Palkia, so Groudon teams aren't helpless if sand is up. Even though it doesn't OHKO, Gastro can then beat it. Good luck if Palkia is an opposing rain team though :P
Of course, this is mostly in a vacuum, but it does show you're right - Palkia doesn't quite solo PDon, it's just got a great matchup advantage.
Calcs:
0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 178-211 (41.7 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 242-285 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The way Gastrodon deals with Palkia is either dropping Toxic on it or fishing for Scald Burns in between healing. Palkia's preferred relevant STAB is easily PP stalled by Recover, too, whether you're talking Spacial Rend or Draco Meteor. If Palkia does just stay in and try to push through Gastrodon, it runs out of the relevant STAB before Gastrodon is halfway through its Recover PP, leaving it with weaker off-STABs/feeding Storm Drain.
Of course, Palkia can in turn drop a Toxic on Gastrodon, and since Palkia has clerics and Groudon doesn't that's a great trade for Palkia, even considering that Palkia is a God, particularly considering Gastrodon is, by far, Groudon's best Special wall and Palkia tends to run Special attackers.
... but then you've got your offensive monster of a God running Toxic to help in one matchup you're already strong in. Might be worth doing in a tournament match where you know your opponent is Primal Groudon ahead of time, but on ladder it's pretty eeeh.
And yeah, I added Gastrodon early on to my Primal Groudon team and never went back. It's amazing all around, especially since many teams run exactly zero Grass moves.
Of course, Palkia can in turn drop a Toxic on Gastrodon, and since Palkia has clerics and Groudon doesn't that's a great trade for Palkia, even considering that Palkia is a God, particularly considering Gastrodon is, by far, Groudon's best Special wall and Palkia tends to run Special attackers.
... but then you've got your offensive monster of a God running Toxic to help in one matchup you're already strong in. Might be worth doing in a tournament match where you know your opponent is Primal Groudon ahead of time, but on ladder it's pretty eeeh.
And yeah, I added Gastrodon early on to my Primal Groudon team and never went back. It's amazing all around, especially since many teams run exactly zero Grass moves.
I've updated the replays and team archive. I'm also going to make some viability decisions:
5★ -> 4★
4★ -> 5★
4★ -> 5★
3★ -> 2★
2★ -> 3★
Dialga = We probably overestimated its capabilities from the start, and while it still has a lot of strengths that make it 4-star, it's just not outstanding enough to cut it in the top rank.
Arceus = People have been asking this forever and I think it's time for the true god to take his throne. Arceus and Normal teams in general can certainly be exploited but a standard E-killer set runs through so much of the metagame that it deserves more recognition.
Palkia = Basically takes Dialga's old role in having a great typing to build a team around while having good matchups versus a lot of the metagame, only Palkia's greater range of options with its Water typing (especially for cleric support) make it one of the best all around picks.
Arceus (Grass) = This was never brought up but I'm not sure why I ranked it this high to start, as I've never seen it used and mono-Grass honestly isn't the best for teams in this meta. Not bad enough to join the forms in the bottom rank, but I don't think anyone would argue with a drop.
Darkrai = Definitely more of a risk to use, but with Geomancy gone, Nasty Plot Darkrai is probably one of the most fearsome special sweepers in the game. Dark Void/Sub somewhat mitigates its lack of bulk and mono-Dark is pretty decent, so I'm ranking it up.
Need more discussion:
/
= I think Kyogre is still really strong but it definitely has some matchup issues. Maybe some more discussion on what teams Kyogre is strong against?
= I've earned new appreciation for P-don itself with the BU set, but aside from Gastrodon, there hasn't been much discussion about how well mono-Ground in general matches up against other gods
And new points of discussion:
4★ -> 3★ = I've seen surprisingly little of Aegi. Steel/Ghost seems pretty solid, but have people had any success with it? Ghost is pretty sparse as far as options go, and Steel is harder to build around than you'd think. Not sure, but I feel like 4-star is overselling it.
3★ -> 4★ = Genesect has been doing better than I expected. I could go either way on this, as 3-star is probably fine for it, but I'd at least like to discuss the option for a raise.
3★ -> 2★ = We all know Mega Mom is strong, but I honestly don't see any that many reasons to use it over Arceus. Not only does it lock you out of using Mega Lop/Pidgeot, but it has generally fewer options and less sweeping potential due to 100 base Speed and non-STAB priority. I've never really seen it and I think it should drop, though it's still good enough to keep out of 1-star.
(Water/Steel/Poison/Fighting) 2★ -> 3★ = Not all of them, obviously, but these are some of the Arceus forms I've actually seen being used and I don't think 3-star is too much of a stretch for any of them except maybe Poison, who was probably better when Xerneas was everywhere.
Dialga = We probably overestimated its capabilities from the start, and while it still has a lot of strengths that make it 4-star, it's just not outstanding enough to cut it in the top rank.
Arceus = People have been asking this forever and I think it's time for the true god to take his throne. Arceus and Normal teams in general can certainly be exploited but a standard E-killer set runs through so much of the metagame that it deserves more recognition.
Palkia = Basically takes Dialga's old role in having a great typing to build a team around while having good matchups versus a lot of the metagame, only Palkia's greater range of options with its Water typing (especially for cleric support) make it one of the best all around picks.
Arceus (Grass) = This was never brought up but I'm not sure why I ranked it this high to start, as I've never seen it used and mono-Grass honestly isn't the best for teams in this meta. Not bad enough to join the forms in the bottom rank, but I don't think anyone would argue with a drop.
Darkrai = Definitely more of a risk to use, but with Geomancy gone, Nasty Plot Darkrai is probably one of the most fearsome special sweepers in the game. Dark Void/Sub somewhat mitigates its lack of bulk and mono-Dark is pretty decent, so I'm ranking it up.
Need more discussion:
And new points of discussion:
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Fighting, actually -- mostly based on Ghoul King's use of it -- it's also the bulkiest Fighting god in the game, the only one with instant recovery (except MMX who doesn't count as Fighting for the purpose of Teambuilding) and one of the only Pokemon in the game that can deal consistent Special Fighting damage.
I've updated the replays and team archive. I'm also going to make some viability decisions:
5★ -> 4★
4★ -> 5★
4★ -> 5★
3★ -> 2★
2★ -> 3★
Dialga = We probably overestimated its capabilities from the start, and while it still has a lot of strengths that make it 4-star, it's just not outstanding enough to cut it in the top rank.
Arceus = People have been asking this forever and I think it's time for the true god to take his throne. Arceus and Normal teams in general can certainly be exploited but a standard E-killer set runs through so much of the metagame that it deserves more recognition.
Palkia = Basically takes Dialga's old role in having a great typing to build a team around while having good matchups versus a lot of the metagame, only Palkia's greater range of options with its Water typing (especially for cleric support) make it one of the best all around picks.
Arceus (Grass) = This was never brought up but I'm not sure why I ranked it this high to start, as I've never seen it used and mono-Grass honestly isn't the best for teams in this meta. Not bad enough to join the forms in the bottom rank, but I don't think anyone would argue with a drop.
Darkrai = Definitely more of a risk to use, but with Geomancy gone, Nasty Plot Darkrai is probably one of the most fearsome special sweepers in the game. Dark Void/Sub somewhat mitigates its lack of bulk and mono-Dark is pretty decent, so I'm ranking it up.
Need more discussion:
/= I think Kyogre is still really strong but it definitely has some matchup issues. Maybe some more discussion on what teams Kyogre is strong against?
= I've earned new appreciation for P-don itself with the BU set, but aside from Gastrodon, there hasn't been much discussion about how well mono-Ground in general matches up against other gods
And new points of discussion:
4★ -> 3★ = I've seen surprisingly little of Aegi. Steel/Ghost seems pretty solid, but have people had any success with it? Ghost is pretty sparse as far as options go, and Steel is harder to build around than you'd think. Not sure, but I feel like 4-star is overselling it.
3★ -> 4★ = Genesect has been doing better than I expected. I could go either way on this, as 3-star is probably fine for it, but I'd at least like to discuss the option for a raise.
3★ -> 2★ = We all know Mega Mom is strong, but I honestly don't see any that many reasons to use it over Arceus. Not only does it lock you out of using Mega Lop/Pidgeot, but it has generally fewer options and less sweeping potential due to 100 base Speed and non-STAB priority. I've never really seen it and I think it should drop, though it's still good enough to keep out of 1-star.
(Water/Steel/Poison/Fighting) 2★ -> 3★ = Not all of them, obviously, but these are some of the Arceus forms I've actually seen being used and I don't think 3-star is too much of a stretch for any of them except maybe Poison, who was probably better when Xerneas was everywhere.
I've seen some decent semistall aegi teams with access to M-Sab, Heatran and Skarm- strong against pretty much every major archetype except for water. Haven't used it myself though so maybe an aegi user can talk more about its viability. Ironically I've found Skarm/ balloon Heatran cores as by far my hardest matchup as a PDon user.
As far as PDon goes against other Gods other than water teams which have been talked about quite in depth, Don teams have a very strong matchup against most of the meta. Scarf Krook pretty much 6-0s any Psychic teams. The incredible offensive presence of Don teams can often prove too much for other Gods- the nukes that threaten Don before it can set up (Palkia, Hydreigon, Specs/ Soul Dew Latis) are all extremely threatened by Exca/Krook. Dragon teams (particularly Mence and Rayquaza) really don't like Mamo and Don shrugs off any flying types. Genesect teams don't have a good match up against Ground and really have nothing for Don.
Arceus normal teams are threatening to Don in my experience- +2 or +4 Arceus Earthquake really hurts Don and extreme speed threatens Grounds hyper offensive presence. If it isnt the last mon though, it can be phased by Hippowdon. Physically Defensive P2 is hard to break as well, although easily preyed on by Krooks knock off and total set up fodder for PDon. Zekrom and Fairy teams also have an extremely poor matchup and struggle to get past PDon.
Physically defensive Hippowdon and Specially Defensive Gastro are great defensive pivots as grass coverage is extremely rare.
Tldr: when running Bulk Up restalk PDon, the only real team archetype that Don doesn't have an immediate match up advantage is against Skarm/ Tran cores and Palkia and Ekiller (the God's, not the teams)
Edit: forgot to mention, Yveltal dark spam also has a strong matchup against Don- Dark Aura Dark Pulse+ it's flinch chance has the power to muscle through Don and his followers
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Oh, sweet! Nice to see Arceus is finally 5 star. TBH I do think Kyogre has matchup issues, but I'll get to Kyogre in a moment.
Genesect - I honestly agree - Scarfed Genesect is unique among gods in it's ability to come in, do damage with a hefty U-turn if it gets the boost, and go out to one of it's supporters. It's the incarnation of the Hit and Run playstyle of Gods. While it hates rocks and fire, it has options to mitigate that - Excadrill can Rapid Spin and dent PDon, and Heatran can act as a fire sponge. I honestly don't like it with webs support, because, against flying teams like those of Mega Salamence (who's pretty much one of, if not the best Gods right now) and Rayquaza, it's kind of useless. That and, again, it's Bisharp bait. I consider Scarf-Gene the best set to be honest, but Shift Gear sets can be run. I prefer scarf as it can revenge kill with it's boltbeam+steel+bug coverage, and is somewhat difficult to beat thanks to it's tendency to come in and soften up Pokemon repeatedly, giving opportunities for Mega Scizor to clean with SD into Bullet Punch or Mega Pinsir to clean with an optional Swords Dance into Quick Attack. Scarf Genesect is also painfully difficult to switch in on because of U-turn and it's coverage. I honestly feel it's probably one of the best 3 starers here. It's got a few flaws, of course, but this is 4 star, not five star. Of course, that may be because I was scared witless of Scarfed Genesect one time because it half stomps MegaMence teams. The best way I found for my team to beat it was saccing KyuB to Iron Head and setting up on it with MegaMence as it switches out, and then proceeding to clean.
Aegislash - Not seen many of these, so I don't know what team composition they often run in GaF, but it does have neat options, like Mega Sableye who can bounce hazards for it's teammates and checks like half the offensive threats to stall. Aegislash on it's own can run a ton of sets - It can sweep with SD into Shadow Sneak (although it's advisable getting a few boosts before doing so - Weakness Policy helps when I use it in other formats), wallbreak with Modest max special Life Orb, a stall set with Toxic and shenanigans, and perhaps a few ones I haven't seen/heard. It's offensive options are nice, with Klefki letting it spike stack, Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross piling on the power by the spade full, Gengar and a few decent ghosts besides Mega Sableye to do damage. It's defensive include Heatran and Skarmory most notably. To be honest, I think it lost a lot of luster since it's biggest role of checking GeoXern became unnecessary as of the banning of Geomancy, but it nicely matches with several 3 starers.
Mega Kangaskhan - Again, not seen many, but the one I did encounter almost stomped me. Mega Kangaskhan is extremely strong if you let it get out of hand, but Arceus lets you use Mega Lopunny, who is an absolute nightmare for any sort of offense (except Deo-A/MegaZam offense, but that's by the by as neither are that common from my experience). I feel Mega Kangaskhan has an extreme case of the opportunity costs, especially now that Arceus is 5 stars, so I can say it should probably be bumped down.
Arc-Forms - TBH the only Arceus form I've used is Normal so idk how these fare. Fighting has nice Hyper Offense options, I guess, and Arc Water can take on PDon. Not sure about the others, so someone else probably should do these.
On the things Kyogre and PDon do well and struggle against - Mostly off the top of my head -
Teams Kyogre gives a hard time -
Scarf: Any team without resistances to Water (PDon, Palkia, other Kyogre, are examples of teams that have these or resist it themselves etc) or a faster scarfer/priority user that can OHKO
Specs: Stall/anything slower without resistances to it
Rest-Talk: Slower teams+Stall, as it can effectively stallbreak thanks to Rest
Struggles with: Palkia teams - Palkia can beat Kyogre 1v1 and rain teams typically lack much to beat it outside of Kingdra.
PDon - Not many ways to handle these except being Primal itself/running Seismitoad or CritDra (iirc there were a few others)
Soul Dew Latis - Can stomach even Water Spouts and maim it with Psyshock - The most reliable answer iirc
Electrics - Zekrom OHKOs by a million miles with Bolt Strike and Jolly scarfer
Sp.Def Gastro + A few other waters - Can wall Kyogre and causes rain to struggle
Teams PDon gives a hard time -
Water teams that don't have Palkia - Kyogre teams, etc
Steel/bug teams - Genesect hates this thing because it has difficult spamming U-turn
Basically anything that it can wall the STABs of and that can't hit it with SE special attacks, which is a good chunk of the game.
Struggles with: Lustrous Orb Palkia and Choiced Palkia not locked into Hydro Pump, Primal Kyogre, Bulky Dragon Dance Mega Salamence (uses it as setup bait thanks to Roost and Refresh), chip damage in general if not running Rest-Talk
I almost certainly missed something, by the way. I guess it's a start, though.
Genesect - I honestly agree - Scarfed Genesect is unique among gods in it's ability to come in, do damage with a hefty U-turn if it gets the boost, and go out to one of it's supporters. It's the incarnation of the Hit and Run playstyle of Gods. While it hates rocks and fire, it has options to mitigate that - Excadrill can Rapid Spin and dent PDon, and Heatran can act as a fire sponge. I honestly don't like it with webs support, because, against flying teams like those of Mega Salamence (who's pretty much one of, if not the best Gods right now) and Rayquaza, it's kind of useless. That and, again, it's Bisharp bait. I consider Scarf-Gene the best set to be honest, but Shift Gear sets can be run. I prefer scarf as it can revenge kill with it's boltbeam+steel+bug coverage, and is somewhat difficult to beat thanks to it's tendency to come in and soften up Pokemon repeatedly, giving opportunities for Mega Scizor to clean with SD into Bullet Punch or Mega Pinsir to clean with an optional Swords Dance into Quick Attack. Scarf Genesect is also painfully difficult to switch in on because of U-turn and it's coverage. I honestly feel it's probably one of the best 3 starers here. It's got a few flaws, of course, but this is 4 star, not five star. Of course, that may be because I was scared witless of Scarfed Genesect one time because it half stomps MegaMence teams. The best way I found for my team to beat it was saccing KyuB to Iron Head and setting up on it with MegaMence as it switches out, and then proceeding to clean.
Aegislash - Not seen many of these, so I don't know what team composition they often run in GaF, but it does have neat options, like Mega Sableye who can bounce hazards for it's teammates and checks like half the offensive threats to stall. Aegislash on it's own can run a ton of sets - It can sweep with SD into Shadow Sneak (although it's advisable getting a few boosts before doing so - Weakness Policy helps when I use it in other formats), wallbreak with Modest max special Life Orb, a stall set with Toxic and shenanigans, and perhaps a few ones I haven't seen/heard. It's offensive options are nice, with Klefki letting it spike stack, Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross piling on the power by the spade full, Gengar and a few decent ghosts besides Mega Sableye to do damage. It's defensive include Heatran and Skarmory most notably. To be honest, I think it lost a lot of luster since it's biggest role of checking GeoXern became unnecessary as of the banning of Geomancy, but it nicely matches with several 3 starers.
Mega Kangaskhan - Again, not seen many, but the one I did encounter almost stomped me. Mega Kangaskhan is extremely strong if you let it get out of hand, but Arceus lets you use Mega Lopunny, who is an absolute nightmare for any sort of offense (except Deo-A/MegaZam offense, but that's by the by as neither are that common from my experience). I feel Mega Kangaskhan has an extreme case of the opportunity costs, especially now that Arceus is 5 stars, so I can say it should probably be bumped down.
Arc-Forms - TBH the only Arceus form I've used is Normal so idk how these fare. Fighting has nice Hyper Offense options, I guess, and Arc Water can take on PDon. Not sure about the others, so someone else probably should do these.
On the things Kyogre and PDon do well and struggle against - Mostly off the top of my head -
Teams Kyogre gives a hard time -
Scarf: Any team without resistances to Water (PDon, Palkia, other Kyogre, are examples of teams that have these or resist it themselves etc) or a faster scarfer/priority user that can OHKO
Specs: Stall/anything slower without resistances to it
Rest-Talk: Slower teams+Stall, as it can effectively stallbreak thanks to Rest
Struggles with: Palkia teams - Palkia can beat Kyogre 1v1 and rain teams typically lack much to beat it outside of Kingdra.
PDon - Not many ways to handle these except being Primal itself/running Seismitoad or CritDra (iirc there were a few others)
Soul Dew Latis - Can stomach even Water Spouts and maim it with Psyshock - The most reliable answer iirc
Electrics - Zekrom OHKOs by a million miles with Bolt Strike and Jolly scarfer
Sp.Def Gastro + A few other waters - Can wall Kyogre and causes rain to struggle
Teams PDon gives a hard time -
Water teams that don't have Palkia - Kyogre teams, etc
Steel/bug teams - Genesect hates this thing because it has difficult spamming U-turn
Basically anything that it can wall the STABs of and that can't hit it with SE special attacks, which is a good chunk of the game.
Struggles with: Lustrous Orb Palkia and Choiced Palkia not locked into Hydro Pump, Primal Kyogre, Bulky Dragon Dance Mega Salamence (uses it as setup bait thanks to Roost and Refresh), chip damage in general if not running Rest-Talk
I almost certainly missed something, by the way. I guess it's a start, though.
With this month about to end, thought I'd upload a few replays.
Fighting Arceus (me) vs Lugia: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324260368
Normal Arceus (me) vs Genesect: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324274865
Yveltal (me) vs Palkia: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324281783
Lugia (me) vs Dialga: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324287565
Zekrom (me) vs Reshiram: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324297437
Fighting Arceus (me) vs Lugia: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324260368
Normal Arceus (me) vs Genesect: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324274865
Yveltal (me) vs Palkia: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324281783
Lugia (me) vs Dialga: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324287565
Zekrom (me) vs Reshiram: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324297437
I had a battle with a Palkia team I was testing with (omg I'm not using MegaMence for once this is unheard of) vs a PDon team. I may have played a bit poorly, but Defensive Alomolomola (did I spell it right? I can never get it right lol) saved my behind. I pretty much had Defensive Alomolomola just for Excadrill because it threatens Palkia so much in sand. I figured I'd share the battle because it was a bit close and there isn't a Palkia v PDon replay in the archives, and also shows what was being discussed with how Palkia fares against PDon. What do we take away from this? Palkia has a HUGE matchup advantage vs PDon teams if it brings the right 'mons to support it. The replay is: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324313343
From now on I'll probably be experimenting with Gods instead of using my MegaMence team, if solely because using MegaMence over and over has gotten a bit stale, and I've already gotten plenty high on the ladder with it IMO. Expect some more non-Mence replays soon :)
From now on I'll probably be experimenting with Gods instead of using my MegaMence team, if solely because using MegaMence over and over has gotten a bit stale, and I've already gotten plenty high on the ladder with it IMO. Expect some more non-Mence replays soon :)
Alomomola is an excellent Mon although I should point out that power up punch really is an awful set for PDon- Alomomola is total set up fodder for resttalk Don and Double Dance Don can break through it-
+4 4 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Harsh Sunshine: 254-299 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Harsh Sunshine: 338-398 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 457-538 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Need more discussion:
= I've earned new appreciation for P-don itself with the BU set, but aside from Gastrodon, there hasn't been much discussion about how well mono-Ground in general matches up against other gods
My own Primal Groudon team has proven reliable against literally every other God except Darkrai, which is a goddamn nightmare to avoid being swept by. Better constructed Rain Kyogre teams, the ones carrying Ludicolo specifically, can also prove difficult to beat, but otherwise my experience with Primal Groudon is that it has a lot of matchup advantages and almost no matchup disadvantages.
I'm particularly fond of Sturdy Leftovers Donphan. It consistently astounds me how bulky it is -I keep thinking I must've set it to Physically Defensive, and no, it's just that bulky- and it works as a universal check on a variety of powerful Special attackers: accept a "lethal" hit and retaliate for actually lethal damage, or near enough and then finish them off with Ice Shard. Donphan allows me to power through the majority of "I really have no answer to this" matchup problems, and thanks to its resistance to Stealth Rock, I can even U-Turn it in -or make a gutsy prediction- and have it on full health to use Sturdy even if Stealth Rock is up. Oh, and it clears hazards too.
THINGS YOU WOULD THINK ARE A PROBLEM THAT AREN'T
Burn: Mono-Ground is very strongly Physically weighted, so Will O Wisp spam should be a nightmare, right? And Scald should be even more of a problem, because Ground is weak to Water, right? Well... no, not really. Primal Groudon can switch in on and murder almost everything that carries either, and Will O Wisp is, itself, quite rare in Gods and Followers, as Ghost Gods are unpopular and have viability problems anyway. The most common Will O Wisper is Rotom-Wash, and Pain Split is about the best thing it can to do Primal Groudon -everything Rotom-Wash usually carries is something Primal Groudon is straight-up immune to.
What few things are a problem for Primal Groudon are readily covered by Specially Defensive Storm Drain Gastrodon. It doesn't like being hit with Will O Wisp, but it doesn't hate it, either.
Lack of clerics: You're immune to most attempts at Paralysis, and anyway you aren't expecting to win Speed wars in most cases so the Speed loss is often fairly minor. Burn is easily avoided 90% of the time, as covered above. Sleep is very rare, though admittedly Breloom is difficulty for Primal Groudon to teambuild around -but fortunately it's rare. (I use Physically Defensive Poison Heal Gliscor to deal with it) Toxic is a surprisingly minor problem, as Primal Groudon/its team tends to run aggressive enough that most of the time it won't help to drop Toxic on it or a follower.
Lack of recovery on Primal Groudon, lack of Wish: Also surprisingly minor. Primal Groudon can switch into several threats for literally no damage repeatedly, and tends to punish attempts to stay in by simply murdering whatever dared to do 30% to it. The stalliest threats are often neutered by a simple application of Rest -not even Resttalk, just Rest. Primal Groudon's followers are also surprisingly good at keeping their own health up -my own team only has two non-Groudon members that can't restore their health.
Grass types: Extremely rare. By far the most common viable one for me to see is Breloom on Mega Blaziken or Mega Lucario teams -both of which have consistently been somewhat underwhelming on the ladder, in my experience. It's hard for Groudon to teambuild against strong and fast Grass attackers -nearly impossible, in fact- but most teams can't actually do anything to take advantage. I've personally taken a crack at Shaymin-Sky as a God, and it's awful.
Ice attackers: Specially Defensive Gastrodon and Thick Fat Mamoswine both go a long way to dealing with these. Kyurem-Black is problematic, but not egregiously so.
4★ -> 3★ = I've seen surprisingly little of Aegi. Steel/Ghost seems pretty solid, but have people had any success with it? Ghost is pretty sparse as far as options go, and Steel is harder to build around than you'd think. Not sure, but I feel like 4-star is overselling it.
Ultimately I think Aegislash's biggest problem is that it isn't synergistic with its followers, or at least not anymore than its followers are synergistic with each other. Like, yeah you can switch Aegislash into a Fighting move meant for a Steel follower, but any of your Ghosts can do that. Aegislash itself lacks recovery, has poor Wish support through Jirachi the end (Which has the problem that anything people would switch into Jirachi to hurt it probably hits Aegislash super effectively too!), and in general doesn't do anything to add value to its followers. In conjunction with Ghost and Steel both presenting difficulties for teambuilding, Aegislash tends to struggle.
3★ -> 4★ = Genesect has been doing better than I expected. I could go either way on this, as 3-star is probably fine for it, but I'd at least like to discuss the option for a raise.
Just the fact that it picks up access to a variety of useful Bugs that are either not possible to implement or, more often, aren't really worth implementing on teams that can get them (eg Mega Heracross is questionable on a Fighting team), is surprisingly useful. Genesect itself hits hard, is fast, and can U-Turn out of trouble, making it hard to actually take it down -its one of the only Gods that can be used extremely aggressively with little risk of this leading to it being KOed.
3★ -> 2★ = We all know Mega Mom is strong, but I honestly don't see any that many reasons to use it over Arceus. Not only does it lock you out of using Mega Lop/Pidgeot, but it has generally fewer options and less sweeping potential due to 100 base Speed and non-STAB priority. I've never really seen it and I think it should drop, though it's still good enough to keep out of 1-star.
I think the main thing is:
Mega Kangaskhan is a Normal type that murders Ghosts (Crunch/Sucker Punch, backed by Parental Bond and potentially being at +2, plus Scrappy pre-Mega)
and
Mega Kangaskhan is a fast Normal type that can sweep with priority.
Problem being Arceus-Normal does the second point better with STAB Extreme Speed, better base Speed, etc, and then Arceus can carry Mega Lopunny to do the former. So Mega Kangaskhan is basically left bringing only one thing to the table over Arceus -higher power on non-priority sweeps.
Mega Kangaskhan isn't a 1-star God, of course, because it's still Mega Kangaskhan, but it's really hard to argue for using it over Arceus-Normal.
(Water/Steel/Poison/Fighting) 2★ -> 3★ = Not all of them, obviously, but these are some of the Arceus forms I've actually seen being used and I don't think 3-star is too much of a stretch for any of them except maybe Poison, who was probably better when Xerneas was everywhere.
I don't see Poison, personally, but I can see the others.
Genesect itself can dish out fairly good damage to Primal Groudon, and Air Balloon Heatran can force out or kill several Primal Groudon builds due to them being unable to touch it. If such a Primal Groudon lets Genesect keep U-Turning out to Heatran into Primal Groudon's face -and Primal Groudon itself is one of Primal Groudon's only good switch-ins into Genesect just carrying Iron Head, U-Turn, and Ice Beam- then Genesect can wear down Primal Groudon and open the way for something like a Volcarona Quiver Dance sweep.
I personally found Genesect one of the more problematic Gods to face as a Primal Groudon team. Not that it was a favorable matchup for Genesect, but I had to actually make good predictions to win, rather than "Click Fire Punch until the enemy team is dead." You'd be surprised how many Dragon-using teams have nothing that can take a Fire Punch.
Pursuit Krook is my answer to balloon Tran (credit to eviolite goomy ) but yeah, Heatran/Skarm are a huuuge issue for RestTalk PDon teams. I was left absolutely stunned when when my Don fire punched a skarm only to get hit with counter.
It should be noted though that Double Dance Don teams annihilate Genesect teams once Heatrans Balloon is gone. I know I've been going on about Don a lot, but I really think it justifies 5 Star. Another asset that no one really mentioned yet it its incredible flexibility- RestTalk plays very differently to Mixed Rock Polish and Double Dance.
Of the few "checks" to RestTalk, (Yveltal, Palkia, PKyogre sort of Dialga, Aegi, Arceus Steel and Genesect due to Skarm/Tran) all can be easily swept by Mixed Rock Polish or Double Dance.
Mixed Rock Polish (Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse, Rock Polish, Precipice Blades) pretty much 6-0s Genesect, Aegi and Arc Steel.
Against other God's with just rock polish set up
252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 252-297 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal in Harsh Sunshine: 256-303 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ghoul King Really said it best- "my experience with Primal Groudon is that it has a lot of matchup advantages and almost no matchup disadvantages."
Groudon is seriously boss guys, why is it so uncommon on the ladder?
Edit: not uncommon, but underused
I've seen the new PDon replays in the main post, and I have to say, it's actually... Pretty darned good! I'll probably see what it can do more in depth later. Considering it can beat MegaMence, a Pokemon that, with Bulky variants, has the potential to set up on PDon... Let's just say that my first post was wrong on the PDon department XD. 3 stars! Yeah, right. 5 stars MAY be a bit of a stretch - It does have answers like Heatran if it only has Fire Punch - but it's definitely one of, if not, the best of the 4 starers I feel, and a bump to 5 stars would not be opposed by me. I'm definitely going to be using this more.
I agree with you on Aegislash. It just doesn't really offer enough to be justifiable over, say, Giratina. I didn't think about how Genesect enables previously questionable bug choices to be used move viably, so that's nice. I found Heatran synergises well with it, and Mega Scizor/Pinsir + Dual Screens Klefki, who also loves Heatran's Flash Fire shenanigans, can turn a match into a Sweep fest pretty quickly.
For now, I'm looking into Landorus-Incarnate, who's actually pretty decent from my experience - Rock Polish means it cleans even partially weakened teams very well. Sheer Force + Life Orb actually hits surprisingly strong with STAB Earth Power behind it and it's coverage is surprisingly good. It's got a nice matchup vs most of 4 star, hammering the fairies with Sludge Wave, the steels and PDon with Earth Power, and Focus Blast hits a decent chunk of things as well as getting the Sheer Force boost. Oh yes, and it also fires this coverage off for pretty much free with Life Orb+Sheer Force's no damage mechanic. Since the Bulk Up PDon set is receiving popularity now, I should also mention it's capable of OHKOing on a roll with Earth Power. I don't suppose we could discuss a potential rise?
I've probably not done enough testing, but preliminary testing shows it can be decent enough with the proper support - It struggles against most of the 5 stars like Palkia and Yveltal, but it has access to the amazing Flying type so those CAN be a non-problem. Do note that Lando-I can run some physical moves to beat weakened Yveltal like Rock Slide, and if Palkia isn't scarf and is weakened to about 60%, Landorus can KO Palkia. MegaMence just murks Lando-I, however, as MegaMence lives any hit besides maybe a rare HP Ice and OHKOs back with Double-Edge and has a 50% chance to OHKO with Return, both after Stealth Rocks. Arceus can be beaten by Focus Blast, but it severely dents Landorus in the process with Espeed. Of course, these are just Gods - Talonflame chunks you with Brave Bird and you can't run all of the coverage you need on one set, so you're guaranteed to be beaten by something depending on what you run. Thoughts on Lando-I would be appreciated, I honestly feel it's one of the more underrated threats right now. I guess it's biggest problem is that it's not PDon, really. iirc someone else was experimenting with Lando but I don't think they ever reported their findings.
Calcs for Landorus-I
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 351-416 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 196-231 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 175-208 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 348-411 (91 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 301-355 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 258-304 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I agree, if it was Double Dance, Alomomola lost and the match would have gone quite differently. PuP is a pretty bad move on anything but a very select few Pokemon, like Mega Kangaskhan, and PDon isn't one of them :P
Yeah, I think Incarnate's main problem is "Ground God that isn't Primal Groudon". Certainly, that's the main reason I never got around to building a team for it. It does get Flying options, giving it better team diversity, though, including cleric support.
Also worth commentary is that it has Calm Mind and Gravity. It can use the former to sweep slower teams (OHKO even Specially Defensive Primal Groudon with +1 Earth Power) and the latter to do things like skip needing Focus Blast for Skarmory/Air Balloon Heatran/make Focus Blast 100% reliable. I genuinely have to wonder if Earth Power/Focus Blast or Sludge Wave/Calm Mind/Gravity is viable as a sweeper. Imperfect, obviously, but I still have to wonder. Gravity Earth Power is neutral or better against everything that isn't Grass or Bug, and both are uncommon.
Also worth commentary is that it has Calm Mind and Gravity. It can use the former to sweep slower teams (OHKO even Specially Defensive Primal Groudon with +1 Earth Power) and the latter to do things like skip needing Focus Blast for Skarmory/Air Balloon Heatran/make Focus Blast 100% reliable. I genuinely have to wonder if Earth Power/Focus Blast or Sludge Wave/Calm Mind/Gravity is viable as a sweeper. Imperfect, obviously, but I still have to wonder. Gravity Earth Power is neutral or better against everything that isn't Grass or Bug, and both are uncommon.
That's a nice option, actually. I think GaF is mostly a balance format from my experience (I've seen a lot of Balance oriented teams and Pokemon on my stints on the ladder), so CM Gravity can smack slower teams around with only a few coverage moves. Of course, that means I'm one of the few primarily offensive players, but live and let live I guess.
I've been looking into Genesect now, and it's honestly pretty good. Dual Screens Klefki is honestly the way to go with this thing, as it lets the team check so many Pokemon it'd struggle against otherwise. Genesect has a great advantage over a decent chunk of 5 stars, being able to chunk Palkia and non-defensive Yveltal with U-turn. It also lets you scout sets, as on a Pokemon with roughly equal defensive stats, if one's only getting selected by Download, then it's easy to see it's running defense in the opposite to what Download is boosting in it's offensive counterpart. For example, if you're getting Sp.Def boosts off of Yveltal, chances are it's defensive. I've seen a decent amount of success with the team I've been using, and Genesect is a big key in it's success. The other part is Dual Screens Klef, Bulky Excadrill, and Mega Scizor.
So, I'll dump some replays I've got from my testing:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324313343 - vs a PDon team - was waiting for a PDon team to see how Palkia fares, and it fares pretty well. EDIT: oops this is the one I've already posted :P Only realised after I couldn't get to my computer later
Landorus Incarnate (me) replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324328144 - vs an Aegislash balance team (literally the only one I've fought) and got a sweep near the end. Not surprising because of Landorus-I's inherent advantage, but the concept behind Rock Polish Landorus is there.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324330629 - vs an Yveltal balance team, close, and I probably didn't play the best, but it does show it can put in work without the Rock Polish boosts.
Genesect (me) replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324392389 - vs PKyogre balance - Genesect bounces a couple times and contributes massively imo, and I learn that PKyogre's Water Spout really chunks even Klefki behind Light Screen.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324397178 - vs Palkia balance (common theme huh) - Genesect bounces off a few things and Klefki really does work.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-324400289 - vs White Kyurem mostly offense - imo Genesect does the most this match out of all the ones I've posted.
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Quick turnaround, but the opinions have been mostly unanimous on these and the ladder only lasts for a few more days, so I'm making the following changes:
4★ -> 5★
4★ -> 3★
3★ -> 4★
3★ -> 2★
While P-don has its flaws, I'm going to bite the bullet and raise it simply due to the fact that you can't under-prepare for it without paying the consequences. This, in my opinion, makes it similar to Arceus. Both are held back by their monotyping to some degree, but the strength of the god itself (along with pretty solid support options to cover its weaknesses, like Lopunny for Arceus and Gastrodon for Groudon) make their teams really scary to face. As people have pointed out, P-don also has pretty good matchup against a lot of the other gods right now, so I think a raise to 5-star is in order.
Still on the table for changes:
4★ -> 5★ = Hesitant because of its relatively poor matchup against two other 5-stars. Honestly its probably near the top of its current rank, but I think its flaws should keep it in 4-star for the time being. I'm not above changing my mind, however.
2★ -> 3★ = They just need more discussion, although no one seems to be using them. Poison is staying where it is.
New discussion:
4★ -> 3★ = Reshiram has been barely discussed in the thread despite its 4-star ranking. Honestly, despite being a relatively rare Fire type god, I'm not sure how much that's worth in the current metagame -- Fire has pretty poor matchup against a lot of the top gods, especially with the decline of Steel-based ones. Many of the dominant Fire types in OU that you'd want to use, like Charizard and Talonflame, already fit onto other teams thanks to their dual typing. Plus, Dragon has a lot of other options as far as gods are concerned. I'm not dead set against dropping it, but I would like a bit of discussion on it.
??? = I don't really think MMX should outrank its fellow forms now that it lost its niche of providing a Fighting type to its team structure. Psychic/Fighting with a physical slant is a solid niche, to be sure, but you can fulfill the same role by putting Medicham or Gallade on a normal Mewtwo team, and by choosing MMX you lose the option of having one of the most powerful and versatile special Psychic types in MMY and normal Mewtwo. I'd like to discuss: is MMX overrated in 3-star, or are one/both of the other forms underrated in 2-star?
3★ -> 4★ = Recently discussed for a raise -- the post is a few above this one.
I'll be updating the replays shortly, stay posted.
EDIT: Replays updated.
While P-don has its flaws, I'm going to bite the bullet and raise it simply due to the fact that you can't under-prepare for it without paying the consequences. This, in my opinion, makes it similar to Arceus. Both are held back by their monotyping to some degree, but the strength of the god itself (along with pretty solid support options to cover its weaknesses, like Lopunny for Arceus and Gastrodon for Groudon) make their teams really scary to face. As people have pointed out, P-don also has pretty good matchup against a lot of the other gods right now, so I think a raise to 5-star is in order.
Still on the table for changes:
New discussion:
I'll be updating the replays shortly, stay posted.
EDIT: Replays updated.
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Quick turnaround, but the opinions have been mostly unanimous on these and the ladder only lasts for a few more days, so I'm making the following changes:
4★ -> 5★
4★ -> 3★
3★ -> 4★
3★ -> 2★
While P-don has its flaws, I'm going to bite the bullet and raise it simply due to the fact that you can't under-prepare for it without paying the consequences. This, in my opinion, makes it similar to Arceus. Both are held back by their monotyping to some degree, but the strength of the god itself (along with pretty solid support options to cover its weaknesses, like Lopunny for Arceus and Gastrodon for Groudon) make their teams really scary to face. As people have pointed out, P-don also has pretty good matchup against a lot of the other gods right now, so I think a raise to 5-star is in order.
Still on the table for changes:
4★ -> 5★ = Hesitant because of its relatively poor matchup against two other 5-stars. Honestly its probably near the top of its current rank, but I think its flaws should keep it in 4-star for the time being. I'm not above changing my mind, however.
2★ -> 3★ = They just need more discussion, although no one seems to be using them. Poison is staying where it is.
New discussion:
4★ -> 3★ = Reshiram has been barely discussed in the thread despite its 4-star ranking. Honestly, despite being a relatively rare Fire type god, I'm not sure how much that's worth in the current metagame -- Fire has pretty poor matchup against a lot of the top gods, especially with the decline of Steel-based ones. Many of the dominant Fire types in OU that you'd want to use, like Charizard and Talonflame, already fit onto other teams thanks to their dual typing. Plus, Dragon has a lot of other options as far as gods are concerned. I'm not dead set against dropping it, but I would like a bit of discussion on it.
??? = I don't really think MMX should outrank its fellow forms now that it lost its niche of providing a Fighting type to its team structure. Psychic/Fighting with a physical slant is a solid niche, to be sure, but you can fulfill the same role by putting Medicham or Gallade on a normal Mewtwo team, and by choosing MMX you lose the option of having one of the most powerful and versatile special Psychic types in MMY and normal Mewtwo. I'd like to discuss: is MMX overrated in 3-star, or are one/both of the other forms underrated in 2-star?
3★ -> 4★ = Recently discussed for a raise -- the post is a few above this one.
I'll be updating the replays shortly, stay posted.
EDIT: Replays updated.
Kyogre- I think 4 star is fine tbh- just has a few more flaws than the other 5 stars and doesn't have good matchups against them either- probably the best of the 4 stars but not quite 5 star material imo. I would be more than open to seeing some solid replays to prove me wrong though
Reshiram- Never used it or faced it, I really can't see its Fire mons adding much viability in this meta and there are much better dragon gods. Will leave it to someone more experienced to discuss
Mewtwo- I think Mewtwo and MMY are fine in 2 stars. Ground and Dark literally 6-0 with Scarf Krook knock off. If you want psychic mons just use a soul dew lati. Mono psychic is pretty bad. MMX is definitely the strongest Mon of the trio, what with neutrality to dark and pseudo recovery in drain punch, but tbh I think it's closer to being a "high two star" Mon than 3 stars.. again would be keen to hear other discussion on this as I could be missing something glaringly obvious
Landorus-I- Support this, flexible and versatile in its sets, and whilst not as strong as Don as a god, gets access to flying mons to cover team weaknesses and imbalances. Still more than pulls it's own.
This was also my impression, that mono-Psychic is lackluster, auto-loses to any strong Dark type, etc. etc. -- however from what I can tell as an outsider, Psychic is considered a fairly strong team in Monotype. This obviously isn't Monotype, and a dual typed god with alright types can often outclass a monotyped god with a great type, but if there are any Monotype players that also play Gods and Followers, I'd be curious to hear that perspective.
But yeah, I'd personally push for them all to be 2-star for the time being.