Metagame Gothlett Suspect Discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rowan

The professor?
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
use the other thread for posting screenshots

move discussion to this thread

Gothita and Diglett have been a concern for many players. Since both of them can trap counters for certain pokemon, thus allowing them to sweep, people have brought up that they maybe broken. We are gonna hold a suspect test to see.

Gothita is often paired with set-up sweepers, such as corphish, omanyte, shellder, tirtouga, zigzagoon, fletchling and more, and is very succesful at removing counters such as ferroseed, croagunk, timburr, cottonee, foongus, abra (it can break sash) whilst being able to trick a scarf onto the more bulky walls such as porygon and spritzee. It can almost certainly remove something in a given match, yet its reliance on scarf for speed, and its low special attack often means it needs some support to do its job. It can help a variety of sweepers, using its good coverage in thunderbolt, energy ball.

Diglett is the joint fastest pokemon in LC, which gives it the ability to hold a life orb to power up its STAB earthquake. It can also run a focus sash to get a switch-in/survive 1 hit. Its ability to OHKO many threats right from the bat makes it a good partner to volturners such as mienfoo, vulllaby, and fletchling. With a bit of knock off support, it can pick off many weakened threats, whilst trapping them. Diglett, arguably, can put a strain on teambuilding as using certain pokemon such as ponyta, larvesta, and chinchou could end up being a liability.

These are the reasons why they are being suspected, yet these aspects of the pokemon, might not necessarily make them broken, and there are counter arguments to them being broken, which are to be discussed in this thread.

As usual, please keep discussion civil. Any dumb posts (up to the discretion of me, macle, and QuoteCS) may be deleted and infracted.
 
re-posting because im not writing another thesis

I'm going to make an argument; it is likely more complex than people might have anticipated. Here it is:

TWO-CONTENTION THESIS STATEMENT:
Suspect: Diglett is bad for the metagame while Suspect: Gothita is good for the metagame.

DEFINITION OF TERMS IN THESIS:
Vis a vis my thesis "good" means increasing the frequency the winner of little cup battles is the more skilled player in that battle as well as making less restrictive the options of a lc battler in teambuilding. "Bad" in thesis vide supra can be termed the opposite: it reduces the chances the better lc player in a given battle wins that battle as well as restricting teambuilding to a unusual degree; both traits previous can be termed inimical to a "better metagame".

CLARIFICATION OF COMMON MISCONCEPTION IMPEDIMENTAL TO COMPREHENSION OF THESIS:
fat Bughouse said:
Since it seems people are confused, this is not a test of "trapping." It's a test of the two viable trappers
Goth and Dig are not the same and shouldnt be treated as such.

It is absurd to list strengths / weakness of diglett (see also: goth) by scrolling through the viability rankings and listing mons it can / can when weakened / cant trap. Trappers are unique in they are suspects "of metagame"; they dont simply beat this lose to that but have a different role each battle. Im fully aware each mon doesnt do the same thing each battle, but trappers specifically are dependent on the flow of a game to see if they are effective -and no other mons have the same impact on flow.

DEFENSE OF PT. I OF THESIS:
To list basic characteristics: Diglett is very fast and moderately strong so it traps things with STAB earthquake and also Rock slide. it kills pokemon.

The area of Diglett i feel is underexamined is how many things make a good teammate for it - and how those teammates + Dig shape the metagame. Common examples cited: Mienfoo, Fletchling. But other mons such as Scarf Mag also love it. Consider a situation where i have scarf mag and diglett. If i get scarf mag on something it forces out (a lot of things) you're forced to go into your check - which is perhaps Mienfoo. Which i then vswitch on and trap with Dig. There's no counterplay. Argument follows: pack a surefire mag check. Say you have Chinchou... thats also trapped by Diglett. So, Scarfchou? or another counter? Your options are pinched off. This pinching off of checks and counters to mon x because of mon x + Dig happens a ton, and such a scenario isnt acknowledged by simple "Diglett cant trap Mienfoo" arguments. When you're teambuilding you need to defend against all number of threats with six mons. It's doable, but very very hard when you need to also not ceed momentum lest diglett get a free kill. Which is why tons of lc teams look similar.

Thing about Diglett is it is very difficult to exploit. After it kills something, you need to send something to fight a 20 speed mon with life orb EdgeQuake. which you can do, but with reasonable difficulty and minimal reversal-potential. To clarify: reversal potential is making any Diglett kill very bad for the Diglett user; an example is an Omantye reversing a Fletch kill into a shell smash sweep. The speed power and memento mean most mons really dont "exploit Diglett" so much as just force it out and U-turn, this foo or something. Snivy fucks it but again a Dig user can deal with Snivy easily. So the opportunity cost of a Diglett kill is not high. It kills they counter you counter and get flow back.

DEFENSE OF PT. II OF THESIS:
To list basic characteristics of Gothita: It is a pokemon that runs psychic / trick pick 2 of tbolt / eball/ hp fire. It always has a choice scarf in high level battles.

Gothita seems much the same as Diglett. It traps things important to the other team: fighting-types, Archen, Chou sometimes, etc. The major difference: the opportunity cost. Getting a kill with Gothita is Pearl Harbor: easy and effective, but you've exposed yourself to a major threat when retreating. And thus the Goth user must be selective when she opts to take that Goth kill, because KO'ing Foo with Psychic to face a Pawniard setup is very alarming. Lets say im playing pokemon versus tazz . He has Corph + Goth; i have foongus to check Corph (it is trapped by Goth) and Pawniard. I have to maneuver to keep Foongus alive, but i also can weaken his team knowing Goth > Foongus begets a pawn SD nullifying his sweep; he knows he cant get a goth kill until he's prepared to defend against Pawn putting pressure on him that means he cant set up Corphish; from there i can pressure him and push his corph sweep back and back into possible nonexistence. See the difference between Goth and Dig? A Dig kill means little harm to the killer, while a goth kill is laced with strategic implications. Of course goth does a good job of dismantling defensive teams, but so does Knock Off; there are ways to cope with both.

OVERALL SUMMATION:

Goth adds a layer of strategy to the game that Diglett assuredly does not. For that reason, Got is definitely not broken, while Diglett might be, im still undecided.
 

doomsday doink

v̶̱̅i̵̢̕l̶̦̈́ļ̵͗a̷̙̓g̸͈͝ę̵̎ ̵̱̌g̷̭͆û̷̦a̵̰͛ȓ̶̜d̸
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Thought this said Golett and feared you had lost your mind.

I think most people competent enough to receive reqs and analyze any battle involving Gothita can agree that Goth's not a broken Pokemon. It's generally forced to run a Choice Scarf which limits its ability to function the turn following a trap, especially if it locks itself into a move-type commonly resisted; this can make Goth an easy Pursuit target if it's locked into Psychic or force one's opponent to eat a strong Earthquake if it's locked into, say, Thunderbolt. It's also a rather weak and frail Pokemon to begin with, pretty much carried by its ability, and misses out on various KO's, even on Pokemon hit super effectively by Psychic. Trick makes it a tad bit more useful but then the user forfeits coverage and limits Gothita's ability to trap various threats in the metagame. I don't think that Goth's going to be an issue in this suspect and if it does become one, I'll truly be baffled.

Diglett on the other hand is the main target of this suspect and I'm aware of how many LC players believe the Pokemon to be incredibly unhealthy; however, I don't think Diglett is broken. As stated in the OP, the biggest argument as to why Diglett is broken is its strain on teambuilding. It's blisteringly fast, has solid support moves, and a good typing for trapping the Pokemon it needs to trap. Yet it's also rather weak without a Life Orb and incredibly frail without a Focus Sash (or dare I say, Eviolite), with the latter being easily broken via hazards, pivoting, etc. I've been consistently playing LC since before ORAS was introduced and the only true strain I've seen on teambuilding has been a decline in Fire-types and Poison-types, and the latter generally has a secondary typing that can dissuade Diglett from switching in and trapping it (Skrelp + Tentacool's STABs / Stunky's Sucker Punch). Even Larvesta can only really be trapped as an RK, as it can otherwise burn an incoming Diglett, pivot out with U-turn, or straight-up OHKO it with a Flare Blitz. You may be thinking, "Oh no! Poor Ponyta and Trubbish!" Well, the former is still a threat, both defensively and offensively, and the latter was never all that great to begin with. Diglett is, undoubtedly, much more difficult to RK than Gothita, but it's mainly just a metagame shift that the playerbase has to get used to. It's quite reminiscent of the era where Fletchling was suspected and people thought it was the most broken Pokemon in existence but, in reality, it was just people lacking Flying-type resistances or playing poorly and sacking their checks early game.

I'll also address trapping as a whole because I know a few people have argued that the mechanic in itself is uncompetitive and ruins the game of Pokemon. I'd argue that it introduces another competitive element to the mix, forcing the opponent to play around this ability just as one would play around any other aspect of the game, such as Pawniard / Fletch setting up a Swords Dance or simply hazard control. It adds another form of prediction, forcing the opponent to decide between addressing the thread on the field or address the trapper possibly switching in on a resisted move, eliminating one's check to the aforementioned "thread on the field." In my personal opinion, when an opponent brings a Diglett or a Gothita, unless one's brought like 4 Pokemon that get absolutely bodied by an Earthquake or Psychic, the gameplay is elevated to a new level.

Oh yeah, and sorry for the wall of text, in class right now and bored af. I figured I'd toss my opinion out there and I'm prepared for the Heysup-esque arguing that will commence. So get at me nerds.
 
My Opinion
------------
Neither Diglett or Gothita are broken

Let's face it,unless you have 4-5 mons that get bodied by EQ/Psychic, Diglett and Gothita are easy to take out simply with good coverage.

----GOTHITA----
Ok, Gothita isn't broken. Everyone knows that. Although its coverage is good, it's frail and slow, which forces it to run Scarf. That way, you could sack a mon in order to bring out a more favorable pokemon to use, then either:
- Wait for it to switch out so you can Pursuit its sorry @*s.
- Bring out Dark Pulse/Crunch/Night Slash/Shadow Claw/Shadow Ball/X-Scissor

----DIGLETT----
Many people think Diglett to be broken, but do I think he is? NNNNOOOOPE.
He's weak without Life Orb, which makes him strong but he's frail without Focus Sash/Eviolite. It's one or the other. And the same strategy which works for Gothita applies here: sack a mon, then bring in Pursuit to bait switches or bring out a Grass/Water/Ice move. His blistering speed is a problem however, which makes him hard to RK. While a decline in Fire and Poison types may seem alarming, Skrelp/Tentacool can bring out powerful Scalds/Surfs and sun can also $h*t on Diglett via Oddish,Bulbasaur and Bellsprout via Solarbeams. Hazards also wreck Diglett hard, especially the Focus Sash set. And now for a newsflash by Captain Obvious: Don't sack your Flying types and/or Diglett checks early game. If you don't do that, this suspect has no reason to exist.

Although trapping may seem uncompetitive, it just adds another layer of complexity onto the game. You play around it as you would any other element of the game, such as hazards or ridiculously boosted sweepers. You need to address this threat as you would any other: by killing the trapper as quickly as possible before he kills your entire team. And if you make an entire team that gets bodied by EQ/Psychic, then you deserved the loss. I feel that most suspects are driven by trying to fix a metagame by removing a broken part of it(such as Swirlix or Misdreavus), but I feel like this is just driven by players not taking the proper steps to address a threat and then pouring fine,white,kidney-failure-causing salt on it then relentlessly complaining about it.
--------
 
Victory Victreebel!
I just saw your post, and i think that it has several mistakes/things forgotten, and so not that revelant
First the argument "just use pursuit" is completely stupid, that's true for gothita, but that's unthinkable for diglett : the good users of pursuit are skuntank, houndour, munchlax, cranidos, honedge. The majority (totality) of them are ko by a simple earthquake and diglett can dodge some sucker punch with sub, so the only good pursuit users would be scarf, or munchlax, but if you make a bad prediction then you lose your pursuiter with scarfs. Also, if you needed to have a pursuiter, diglett would be overcentralizing the meta, and thus banned.
"- Bring out Dark Pulse/Crunch/Night Slash/Shadow Claw/Shadow Ball/X-Scissor" : that's dumb, gothita will switch. also i like night slash, the move that no one use !
"And now for a newsflash by Captain Obvious: Don't sack your Flying types and/or Diglett checks early game." : few mons can't be 2hko'd by diglett, especially once they are knocked off. Flying types do not resist diglett with stone edge, even if they are not trapped.
The strategy sac a mon bring a counter is definitely a proof of diglett power to make kills, since you can make several kills with it

Also what all your post forget, is that diglett is a trapper, and it's not the only one in a team : the true problem of diglett is that he can kill one or two mons per battle, but that then there will be no more counter. Let's take the example of birds : if your bird counter is pawniard, you just have to uturn on it and trap it. Then you can easily with two birds finish your opponent and win. I don't think that the discussion should only be on diglett ability of sweeping (that's a good point but not the most important for me), even if that's a good finisher, but on the consequence of diglett have on different battles, and on how if it's correctly played, it can easily weaken teams and enable sweeps from several threats. I don't think we can argue correctly in this suspect without taking that in count, and not seeing that is a proof of a lack of knowledge on the metagame.
Also having a point of view so decided prove that you are not honest or haven't enough knowledge on diglett power when it's played by a good guy (and not low ladder), since your post don't show you realise how it could be suspected, and then the problem of this suspect. (you could have argued that it's risky since he could be killed on a good anticipation).
Also if people are complaining about something, that means this thing seems to be a problem in the metagame, they don't suspect things that are bad, just this suspect is legitimate since diglett is the only mon that was worth being suspected imo
 

Just dropping these here, don't worry.

Gothita: No Ban: Gothita is a no ban for me, and most other LC players, as it is generally forced to run choice scarf due to its low speed tier of 14 (although I did run an eviolite goth on a team in like December, and it was pretty effective back then, but not now.) And its ability to pretty much only hold a choice scarf limits its potential against offense, especially if its tricked it off, meaning it can only switch into walls. As well, it is very abusable, if goth it locked into psychic, switch in a dark type or a resist and force it out, if locked into HP Fire, send out a fire resist and wall it again, same story if its locked into tbolt/toxic. Although like diglett, in most matches it can get 1 kill per match if the gothita user is played well, and if not, it can cripple a bulky mon with a scarf it does not want. But, if it wants to run trick as Mambo mentioned, it has to forgo some coverage option, making it harder for Gothita to kill dome things, based on what coverage it does run. All in all, I do not think it is banworthy.

Diglett: Ban: Diglett is the real issue here, as its blazing speed tier of 20, its powerful EQ's, and its great ability to hold a focus sash means that it can come in and get a guaranteed 1 or 2 kills per match, and at the same time, can get a free memento off to give a free setup opportunity to any and all setup sweepers, such as fletchling, which loves gothita's support. Digletts effect on battling is momentous, as it forces you to play around it, and play much more carefully to make sure you dont lose an important mon to its ravaging eqs. All in all, I feel as though diglett needs to be banned.
 
I'm going to respond to Mambo with some points, because I agree with a lot of what he says and not with others, so ya

RE Goth: why are people ignoring the true damaging lc psychic type: Abra

RE: Diglett Paragraph

Mambo said:
Diglett on the other hand is the main target of this suspect and I'm aware of how many LC players believe the Pokemon to be incredibly unhealthy; however, I don't think Diglett is broken. As stated in the OP, the biggest argument as to why Diglett is broken is its strain on teambuilding. It's blisteringly fast, has solid support moves, and a good typing for trapping the Pokemon it needs to trap. Yet it's also rather weak without a Life Orb and incredibly frail without a Focus Sash (or dare I say, Eviolite), with the latter being easily broken via hazards, pivoting, etc. I've been consistently playing LC since before ORAS was introduced and the only true strain I've seen on teambuilding has been a decline in Fire-types and Poison-types, and the latter generally has a secondary typing that can dissuade Diglett from switching in and trapping it (Skrelp + Tentacool's STABs / Stunky's Sucker Punch). Even Larvesta can only really be trapped as an RK, as it can otherwise burn an incoming Diglett, pivot out with U-turn, or straight-up OHKO it with a Flare Blitz. You may be thinking, "Oh no! Poor Ponyta and Trubbish!" Well, the former is still a threat, both defensively and offensively, and the latter was never all that great to begin with. Diglett is, undoubtedly, much more difficult to RK than Gothita, but it's mainly just a metagame shift that the playerbase has to get used to. It's quite reminiscent of the era where Fletchling was suspected and people thought it was the most broken Pokemon in existence but, in reality, it was just people lacking Flying-type resistances or playing poorly and sacking their checks early game.
I feel like this is an oversimplification of the qualities of Diglett. I'm going to use the Life Orb set as the basis for my rebuttal, because the Sash set is niche and useful only on certain teams that need a Diglett switchin / to not be killed by Sucker etc. You're right in Diglett being restrictive of Fire and Posion types, Pony and Skrelp being great examples. This of itself isnt really a banworthy aspect of Diglett - niche Grass-types cut a hard living with Fletch in the tier, and in no sense is bird broken. One slight benefit to Diglett being gone would be a new sufficiency of Pony - Poison cores at combating the main family of check-needed mons, Fighting-types; but this is a "better meta" hypothetical that might not even be true - irrelevant to a suspect.

A disagreement I find with your points appears in the section where you cite the ability of Skrelp Larv et al to threaten Diglett on any switchin. I feel this is irrelevant, as Diglett usually comes in where its team has the momentum - via vturning or doubles. While you might claim a double switch (or, with an argument less efficacious, a u-turn or volt switch) as an example of good plays that actually are a testament to the skill-enhancement of a dig-meta, I contend these momentum-grabs are too easy and prevalent to be dismissed entirely as prediction-based. Moreover, even granting said plays as skillful to the point of irrelevance in suspect convos, the actual edge grabbed by those plays is severe, perhaps too much so. even if i am being destroyed in the prediction game, I usually have recourse for the advantages I've granted, at least for enough time for me to try for the momentum again to save the game. Diglett, however, turns one mistake - an easy one to make in a meta with vturn a lot of common places - into the evisceration of what is likely a critical mon in a balance core.

Of course, you can always argue being trapped and slaughtered by Dig is a reason to not use a mon; it is possible Fire- and Poison-types are just poor brings in a Diglett meta. However, considering solely those type pokemon as trappable is reductionist and fails to consider real metagame situations. Mienfoo can be trapped at ~55% HP, Foongus ~70% when Knocked Off (not an uncommon situation for a Fight- switchin); both of these mons come often into vturns, leaving them vulnerable to Dig shenanigans. Any number of mons are trapped even at a middle amount of HP. (The few that arent - Archen, Ferroseed, the like - are often trapped by Gothita; this is partially the reason I think Goth was suspected, despite its nonbrokenness. There's a sense of desperation inherent to the fact you nearly cannot build a balance team without a key member being trapped by ~something~ leaving you vulnerable.). This is where the "broken" part of Diglett comes in - it isnt merely restrictive to PosionFires, but also a key dismantler of most defensive cores, one you cannot build a counter to into your teamcookie because you cannot switch.

I have another point but since it's germane to the next convo as well imma wait till after

RE: Trapping as a whole Paragraph

Champion Fizz said:
I'll also address trapping as a whole because I know a few people have argued that the mechanic in itself is uncompetitive and ruins the game of Pokemon. I'd argue that it introduces another competitive element to the mix, forcing the opponent to play around this ability just as one would play around any other aspect of the game, such as Pawniard / Fletch setting up a Swords Dance or simply hazard control. It adds another form of prediction, forcing the opponent to decide between addressing the thread on the field or address the trapper possibly switching in on a resisted move, eliminating one's check to the aforementioned "thread on the field." In my personal opinion, when an opponent brings a Diglett or a Gothita, unless one's brought like 4 Pokemon that get absolutely bodied by an Earthquake or Psychic, the gameplay is elevated to a new level.
I agree with you trapping itself isnt a broken mechanic. It fundamentally alters the way one must respond to threats, but in my opinion this is not an immanent evil; although it is novel and unique, it is not too different from any other element of the game where it deserves a special ban by its very nature. we need to look at it context of "what does it do within the game itself" rather than "does this change the fundamentals of the game". We concur here.

I cited in my earlier post I find Diglett to be the suspect most "Of Meta" in the sense that it is most reactive to all manner of changes within the metagame - the frequency with which foo u-turns, how often Knock-offs are thrown out, seeming minutiae that have great influence on function Diglett. perhaps this is due to the fact Dig traps are often chains where the victim is making choices - put himself in a worse spot or push that back - until the choice is made for you. Of course one argument is accept the consequence of the loss of momentum - the large hit coming - but that also suggests a level of brokenness to Dig - to avoid a trap, players must subject themselves to worse positions than they would normally. I'm aware this is how mons works when you have the edge - push them back until you can inflict the serious damage - but Diglett drastically shortens the time someone has to pivot and play out of a bad situ. Gothita does this as well (the limiting), but a Goth-user opens herself to massive retaliation for traps harder to obtain, while as claimed (and mostly agreed upon) Diglett makes it much harder to inflict serious punishment after a trapping kill.

I guess im going to leave off this little rejoinder with an analogy I cooked up wile eating a delicious Bacon Egg and Cheese enroute to US High School today. Full stall is nearly dead in lc; the closest cousin is the "semi-stall" team, which feels to me like Slow Balance (slow as tempo and not of base speeds). Teams like these (balance teams in general) feel like a rubber band. Operation of the rubber band works as follows: it stretches to meet an oncoming threat in the interest of slowing threat down before it can hit the band and snap it; to not stretch means a full-force threat (that SD Pawniard etc) breaks it while it rests. However, stretching has its consequences for the band - go too fast or too hard and the band can snap while countering. It's an ongoing battle between band and force - band snaps out, threat returns from another direction, band extends another part, snaps back to conserve energy and prevent breaking, so on until snapping or the threat is depleted. This is what makes mons competitive and fun. However, Diglett adds another dimension to the Force side, one not seen many other places: it can keep the band extended in a certain direction and charge at it. It isnt the most powerful force, and can only hit from certain angles favorable, but not really rare, but often it can snap or weaken the band to the point where it cant hold up, without the threat of retaliation. Which severely alters the interplay of band and force, perhaps giving force an unfair advantage.
 

macle

sup geodudes
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
As to my personal opinions on this suspect test, I personally feel that trapping is and always will be a dumb concept for Pokemon; to me Pokemon only has 2 core concepts to it, which can be broken down into an action and a reaction. Actions are those that you deliberately seek, such as Teddiursa using Close Combat on Buneary, or even a gain to maintain momentum by double switching (he switches Ferroseed into my Carvanha, I go into Magnet Pull Magnemite on the double and take control of the match). A reaction is one that is taken in response to something else. So, it would be the switch out to Ferroseed. That to me is the basis of battles. Depending on the types of actions and reactions that take place, momentum shifts from player to player. Diglett completely takes away the reaction part. There is absolutely nothing you can do to maintain momentum on your side. You can switch in Ponyta on Mienfoo all you want hoping for a burn, only for Ponyta to be completely devastated by LO Diglett. You can try to get Skrelp in on Mienfoo or Spritzee or Snubbull, but Diglett will be right there to shit on you. Trapping completely takes away any sort of "control" from the opposing player. From turn 1 they play to YOUR tune and battle to how you want to battle. They are often scared to even bring out Pokemon like Ponyta or Skrelp, simply from the fear of being a liability. To me that is just retarded, there is zero reason a Pokemon should limit teambuilding that much. Diglett, as a trapper, should theoretically halt all momentum that you have once you kill your target. That's what trappers do. A classic example is Gothita, who is forced to run a Choice Scarf in order to hit specific Pokemon, and thus severely kills momentum. Diglett does not do that. Diglett often times can just Memento on the next Pokemon to come in, without fear or reprisal. It has Subsititute to get around Pawniard. In fact the only Pokemon that it does not really want to face is Snivy. And even then what is Snivy going to do? You simply switch in your Fletchling, or your Vullaby, or your Pawniard, something to take a Leaf Storm, and force it right out.
this is a great post that sums up my views on trapping. In my ideal Pokemon world, you should have the option to attack or switch. Mambo says that it adds another layer to the game but I'd argue that layer is not very competitive. You are forced to no longer bring out counters for Pokemon because you will lose them next turn. Obviously people will say that just send in something else to counter it that you can afford to lose but you only have 6 pokemon on a team to counter / check a vast amount of pokemon. This is the part where some people may say that team building is strained in lc since you are forced to bring multiple checks / counters for Pokemon that are supported by trapping.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Conversation in LCPL team chat:

them: Team pb consisting of Fletchling, Corphish, Pawniard, Onix, Diglett, Croagunk

me: "kinda uncomfortably weak to fighting types, assuming they get rocks up. Fletchling is the only great way to reliably check. Croagunk can't be counted on forever, especially not if they have Diglett or Goth."
....
more me: "Just worried about Mienfoo U-turning on the Croagunk switch -> Goth or Dig traps -> No more Mienfoo switchin all match"

Croagunk was needed for a Water and Fighting switch-in. And so at my recommendation, the Croagunk ended up changing to a Cottonee, a Pokemon that imo is far less suitable for the team overall in several ways, but at least was more reliable in not getting trapped.

Does this mean Croagunk is a bad Pokemon? Hell no. It's great at breaking down a lot balance cores including things like Mienfoo, Chinchou, Ferroseed, and Spritzee. But it also means that it's just not a reliable Mienfoo check in the other contexts where Mienfoo is on a more offensive team with a trapper. Same goes for Pancham with its Parting Shot and even for Timburr bc double switches CAN happen (not going to get into predictions and skill because it's unnecessary). The point is, trappers exacerbate the immense power of Pokemon like Mienfoo by strongly limiting the range of available checks. Althoguh in the case of Croagunk, both are problems, Diglett effectively traps far more of these checks than Gothita (particularly Abra, Ponyta, other Gothita, and Larvesta).

I am already quite decided that I won't be voting to ban Gothita, as I frankly have just never seen it as broken. Leaning towards a ban on Diglett right now, though.
 
Last edited:

Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
I don't think we can just bluntly state trapping as uncompetitive, as pretty much all wielders of trapping abilities in their respective metas are pretty shitty due to killing momentum the next turn they did their role. Trapping is a very doubtful concept for a competitive metagame on papel, but if the recipient is bad to the point of it being a liability most of the times, people won't really complain about it. Diglett is a great recipient of Arena Trap, great to the point of some pointing out how Diglett killing momentum is unlikely, compared to Gothita. Macle, are you suggesting that trapping is the reason you should bring things that check Fletchling, for example? I would say Fletchling itself is a very good reason to run Steel- or Electric-types that check it; Diglett may make Fletchling's sweep easier, but even if Diglett wasn't present I doubt other teammates couldn't worn down Bird checks and counters, although less effectively than Diglett for sure.
this is a great post that sums up my views on trapping. In my ideal Pokemon world, you should have the option to attack or switch. Mambo says that it adds another layer to the game but I'd argue that layer is not very competitive. You are forced to no longer bring out counters for Pokemon because you will lose them next turn. Obviously people will say that just send in something else to counter it that you can afford to lose but you only have 6 pokemon on a team to counter / check a vast amount of pokemon. This is the part where some people may say that team building is strained in lc since you are forced to bring multiple checks / counters for Pokemon that are supported by trapping.
Italic phrase is an over-exaggeration of Diglett's capabilities of affecting this metagame. I mean, you are suggesting that Fletchling or Mienfoo are not broughtable due to anything that counters them, especially Fletch's counters, being Dig's targets. If Diglett causes that much problem, making these top tier threats much better than they should be, quickban it.
Bolded phrase made me feel like you meant "oh, you may bring X that counters Foo, but even if you lose X to Dig it should be no prob". No one said or, so I hope, is going to say something like this. I mean, the whole idea is so bad, I might have just misunderstood you, so I'm sorry if I did. Diglett is not forcing players to bring in counters that are "affordable to lose"; if that happens, show me a good team that actually has this logic behind it. Pokemon may be affordable to lose deppending on the opposing team in an specific battle, when teambuilding, every single member (besides things like HO Suicide leads that have done its job, or even the trappers) shouldn't be, on a vaccuum, affordable to lose, especially if it's a counter to something important; otherwise, either you are a bad builder or Diglett is really that restricting. Every single member should be one you must strive to keep on field as much as you can, its presence alone might give you an edge over the opponent.
Then I still feel like Diglett is more of a battling lock than a teambuilder restrictor, although Shrug's very well written post conviced me of Diglett having a heavier presence in LC that I thought. I have concluded that Diglett might offer the player is using it an unfair advantage during a battle, but the might is holding me off. Everyone that is interested in this discussion and willing to do a thoughtful vote should watch these replays from OP. I was amazed by how no replays were brought so far, so I think ones from high-level playing should be brought. Some of these show how Diglett can turns to be pretty lackluster if not used in the right way or if just can't come in the right time. Imo, Diglett may provide an unfair advantage to the trainer but as it seems, it requires some good use of it. People still are tending to over exaggerate on Diglett's capabilities of making threats less viable, all things that Diglett trap And kills that are good enough are still viable and usable team, even with Diglett around.
 
" Macle, are you suggesting that trapping is the reason you should bring things that check Fletchling, for example? I would say Fletchling itself is a very good reason to run Steel- or Electric-types that check it; Diglett may make Fletchling's sweep easier, but even if Diglett wasn't present I doubt other teammates couldn't worn down Bird checks and counters, although less effectively than Diglett for sure."
If i understood correctly macle point, he means that you have to bring not one but several counters to check things. Even if there exist true counters to offensive threats, they are mainly bad (eg : bronzor for fletchling). And macle point completely shows the problem : every switch you make, especially on threats that have volt switch or uturn, you know that your mon if he is in diglett range will be killed, and that's frightening.

Also i kinda wanted to make a post about my vision of diglett :
In all tiers trapping mons have been frightening : in adv you could lose early game your skarmory on magneton, on dpp your ttar on dugtrio because there were no team preview so that was easy. trappers weren't even good, they were played because they could trap mons, and it was their role. In newest gen (BW ORAS), trapping is way more difficult since your mon lost the "surprise" of being trapped : you know when you are switching on ferro that gothitelle might trap you and ohko. But trappers were weak, gothitelle now without shadow tag is UU and is not even used, dugtrio with its ability to trap is RU if i do not make mistakes: they are weak.
In little cup gothita is weak. She must have a choice scarf, trap correctly few things without a support help.
But diglett isn't that weak : yes it has a poor defensive bulk, but offensively that's an incredible mon, few good mons can said being not 2hkod by diglett. I feel like in other tiers, trappers are "taking you one slot" since they have one use, and can be useless in numerous cases (if you run no steel in dpp except tran magnezone will be incredibly bad), i feel like diglett has always a great power as a glass cannon. He doesn't take you one slot in the teambuilder, he is useful even if he doesn't trap his threat (can be put against archen after a ko), and do great damages.
Also, even if it's always a risky play to put him in, that's a 50/50 like others : when you are making double switches, you are playing with these 50/50 : i feel like his offensive power is worth taking this risk. Also i will repeat an argument already given by many people : diglett is an incredible support to threats as he can clean the team to enable him sweeping, like with fletchling for example. And seeing how threatening are the different cores with diglett, i can't see him not being banned : i don't want to play 3 birds check to be still rekt by birds + diglett
 
With Diglett: My Fletchling checks are Archen and Tirtouga.

Without Diglett: My Fletchling checks are every single Rock and Steel type.

With Diglett: My Mienfoo checks are...Spritzee? Pumpkaboo?

Without Diglett: My Mienfoo checks are everything that can switch in.

Gothita kind of sucks, but Diglett is just impossible to deal with as it's not all that hard to get it in on whatever...U-Turn and Volt Switch, done. I don't use Ponyta or Croagunk (can Sucker Punch Gothita) or Onix or what have you because of Diglett traps them, I lose my check/counter to another important Pokemon, so I have to use Diglett-proof Pokemon and it sucks.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Here's a response to the whole "Dig+Birds is overwhelming" argument that I've seen sometimes. FletchDig has been known as a powerful core since Murkrow was banned, and arguably even back in the KrowTite meta it was still used sometimes. It's not a new innovation that changes the way we see the mons in the core, it's really standard.

However if this core is so incredibly good that Diglett can theoretically make it so you can't stop Fletchling from sweeping even if you play very well, why hasn't this become an incredibly standard tournament team? Sure, FletchDig teams have done well in the past because surprise, it is a good core. However it isn't so dominant that we're seeing it in every semi-final game, even important ones.

The easy answer to this is that it's not actually unmanageable, and that you can play around it. Something that tends to happen is that the better player still wins, despite the "uncompetitive nature" of trapping. I wish that we could expect that the abilities of the suspected mon aren't exaggerated so much in a suspect test, but it's unavoidable. Go look at some replays where Diglett is used, and you'll find both that Diglett is a good mon, as you'd expect, but it's not always a gamedefining mon.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Here's a response to the whole "Dig+Birds is overwhelming" argument that I've seen sometimes. FletchDig has been known as a powerful core since Murkrow was banned, and arguably even back in the KrowTite meta it was still used sometimes. It's not a new innovation that changes the way we see the mons in the core, it's really standard.

However if this core is so incredibly good that Diglett can theoretically make it so you can't stop Fletchling from sweeping even if you play very well, why hasn't this become an incredibly standard tournament team? Sure, FletchDig teams have done well in the past because surprise, it is a good core. However it isn't so dominant that we're seeing it in every semi-final game, even important ones.

The easy answer to this is that it's not actually unmanageable, and that you can play around it. Something that tends to happen is that the better player still wins, despite the "uncompetitive nature" of trapping. I wish that we could expect that the abilities of the suspected mon aren't exaggerated so much in a suspect test, but it's unavoidable. Go look at some replays where Diglett is used, and you'll find both that Diglett is a good mon, as you'd expect, but it's not always a gamedefining mon.
I don't really get this argument. 1) it IS a gamedefining mon. Whenever you are up against a Diglett, you can have a standard team of like, skrelp / ponyta / archen / pawniard / mienfoo / Foongus or something (i literally just picked those off the top of my head so theyre probably weak to some random threat) then you have to ALWAYS make sure you play around Ponyta and Skrelp being weak to Diglett. You can no longer just say "o he has Mienfoo, I'm going to switch in my Mienfoo counter, Ponyta, and save the day!" even if Mienfoo gets burned from U-turn, Diglett kills Ponyta. Now you are that much easier to wear down with Ferrospritz, or that much easier to wear down with Fletchling or something. The whole "thing" with Diglett is that it systematically dismantles teams, picking and choosing which Pokemon it can kill and make holes for teammates. Mienfoo by itself is obviously not broken. Mienfoo with Diglett is pretty much a death sentence for any standard balance / offensive team, and the fact that you either have to use your own offensive Diglett oriented team or a form of semi-stall to maintain viability on the ladder or tournaments is kinda dumb. A shitton of teams are roughly the same in this meta, and its because of Diglett's mere existence meaning that it is the Pokemon that is first thought of in teambuilding. If you make a team thats like, Snivy weak or something, yeah its not going to be as good as it could be, but if you make a team that is Diglett weak you are basically never going to win against standard teams.

The easy answer to this is that it's not actually unmanageable, and that you can play around it.

I don't really see how you can play around it. You can't switch, and with Diglett's speed and LO power you're forced to run Scarf on things, which in turn means that you can't check things anymore. So either way, Diglett did its job of removing a potential threat. A key example is Scarfvesta. Yeah, you can run Scarfvesta and suprise Diglett with a flare or a uturn, but even if you do kill Diglett now Mienfoo or Riolu or Timburr or Pawniard know that Larvesta is scarved, is probably not running defensive evs, and it is then easily killed. Its essentially a surpise gimmick that works once and once figured out is easily, easily played around. If you don't run Scarfvesta, it is killed by Diglett, and then cannot check Mienfoo.Lastly, even if you can play around Diglett's trapping, its super unfair to the player. As I had posted the thing Macle quoted, youre basically forced to play how the Diglett user wants you to play. You HAVE to play scared, you HAVE to predict. You can no longer rely on the most basic of play, risk v reward. All the reward is in the Diglett users hands, it is a constant ever lurking threat that must always be considered in every single move. Do I switch my BJ Chinchou into Fletchling?? he might u turn into diglett and then im dead. Do I switch my slightly weakeend no evio Mienfoo into Pawniard and hope that he doesnt go to Diglett to kill me? What about my Omanyte, is it safe to set up on Fletchling with Diglett in the background? Can my Pawniard check his Fletchling? or will i be forced into a 50/50 with Diglett?

All those scenarios are common scenarios, and every single one is with prior thought taken into Diglett's existence. To me, that is just wrong. There has never been a single mon that I think about in teambuilding as there was Diglett. Even in the past. Mons like Swirlix were just, stick Slowpoke and Foongus here and youre set. Tangela? Try using things like Murkrow or Munchlax. Meditite? Gimme that slowpoke again. Diglett? it doesnt fucking matter bc i cant switch out anyway, and even when i switch something in, the metas evolved to a point where nothign is blatantly overpowered and can just win in one turn to take advantage of the momentum. Oh yeah it has memento, so you can't even reliably set up on it unless your name is Snivy or Pawniard (the latter of which is again, forced into a 50/50).
 
I mean I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of banning trappers since while they do make the game less "subjectively fun" imo banning trappers just because they can trap is dumb af. HOWEVER, Diglett is different enough to warrant a suspect for sure and probably be banned.

Diglett traps a fuckton of common mons; this we know. With Knock Off being broken as it is (pls don't quote me on this...), you can also trap stuff like slightly weakened Knocked Off Foo. This not only makes Diglett a great trapper for certain stuff your team wants gone, but if you factor in Knock Off and weakened mons the list of mons destroyed by it increases a LOT and it becomes a great revenge killer out of which your opp can't switch (this obviously doesn't apply to every pokemon ever vs diglett for obvious reasons but you get what I mean).

Just chiming in on the whole "double switching is outplaying" thing: yes, it is! However, the difference from, say, double switching Spritz in on Mienfoo is that Spritzee will get off like one Moonblast and chip some check/counter/w/e (or try to sweep a Spritzee weak team but ya lol). On the other hand, Diglett being doubled in against, say, Skrelp, means that it's causing IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE and the mon that fulfilled [x role on your team] is gone due to being outpredicted on one turn. The reward for the risk of double switching is far more in this case. I personally find Diglett annoying as fuck; although there are ways to take advantage of it, LC has solid mons that stop setup sweepers or w/e and running Trace Porygon on every team is lol. Diglett has been effective for this long cus ppl just don't prepare sufficiently for it but it is a huge pain and I expect this suspect to be a close one.

Idk about banning Diglett since I'm still a little uncomfortable with it but the meta would probably be better off it imo and it prolly is broken. Not gonna get reqs this time around but just wanted to post sum thoughts \o/
 
Isn't Goth easily beaten by the ever-so-common Knock Off users? Although, having used Diglett on previous teams, I understand why it would be suspected.
 
Isn't Goth easily beaten by the ever-so-common Knock Off users? Although, having used Diglett on previous teams, I understand why it would be suspected.
Goth generally comes in on a predicted switch or after something has died, the typical knock off users is true and thats why it dones a scarf and uses its decent movepool to eliminate more passives mons, and fighters, p much you cannot hit it before it kills you when it gets in on something it can kill. Honestly gothita hype is a trend started by digletts adverse affects on the diversity of the metagame and by extension playstype effectiveness, specifically balance. When they try to counteract this with bulkier teams and more offensive balance that abuse like abra to make up for te greater frailty. Sadly both cases lead go a weakness to gothita, its going to get 1 kill probably but pursuit and the loss of momentum after the kill can lose if you try to abuse it.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Isn't Goth easily beaten by the ever-so-common Knock Off users? Although, having used Diglett on previous teams, I understand why it would be suspected.
So the issue with it is that these mons (like all trappers) have a specific role in removing problem threats. They're not offensive or defensive threats, they're completely support threats. Here's the old "portrait of an Uber" definition that, granted we don't use anymore since it was made in 2008, helps categorize what we're talking about.

Portrait of an Uber said:
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep
.
This is pretty much the argument to make for banning Diglett/Gothita. The biggest issue with this definition is that it doesn't really give a good 'degree' to what this has to happen. I can make an argument that BirdSpam should be banned under the support characteristic since the whole idea of it is that one Pokemon weakens the checks of another to allow a sweep. Obviously that'd be ridiculous, and so I personally feel that the support characteristic should include after "in common battle conditions" that the opposing team has little impact on this mon's ability to allow for the sweep to occur.

LC hasn't really ever had a support mon suspected in Gen 6 (although maybe you could make the case that Gligar fell into the support characteristic but Gligar did fucking everything) so it's hard to lean on previous suspects. Support mons don't really need a check or counter, they need something that can null their job. It's a bit harder to do that against trappers though, since their job is to remove Pokemon, not do stuff like set up hazards.

ThatCrazyRussian What I meant was that Diglett teams aren't even the most dominant. Let's look at LCPL's semi-finals in ORAS. In the six matches (12 teams) there were 5 Diglett. That's somewhat high, but not an unreasonable number at all. The people using Diglett lost 4 times, and the 1 person that did win was facing another Diglett team. That's... not a great record. At all. That doesn't really demonstrate dominance or unstoppability in allowing for a sweep, and that was basically my point.

Granted it's a small sample size but it's at least high level, as opposed to ladder which has varying levels of quality. My main issue with your argument is actually that a significant portion of it was just "if your team is weak to Diglett teams then you tend to lose to Diglett teams."

And that's kind of a no shit Sherlock thing to say.[/quote]
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I honestly saw more Litwick than Diglett on the suspect ladder, and none of the Digletts I fought were overly tough to handle. Granted, I was generally using more bulky teams, so with properly play Diglett still wasn't doing much to my team, but it stands to say that if I had decided to use frailer teams, I may have had a lot more trouble with the little mole. Also, while I don't really feel Diglett limits what I can put on a team, it does affect battle strategy, like any other trapper. I actually ran Ponyta for most of the ladder just so I could see how ineffective people have claimed it to be this meta, and it's still a very good poke. Unfortunately, in the matches involving Diglett, I couldn't actually risk KOing anything because I didn't want Pony gone, so most of my moves involved switching in on something, hoping for Flame Body burns, and then Will-o-Wisping/Morning Sun on the switch-in, at least until I got rid of Diglett.

I still feel like a well-played Diglett can tear apart most teams, but I'll continue to be on the fence about this for the time being.
 
Okay so general view point is that goth should stay and i agree. Without going into to much detial, its great coverage is kind of overated when you look at Goths lack of power, it still needs a lot of damage / knock off / hazazard support to kill what its supposed too. It absolutely needs to have a choice scarf to be effective at trapping and after it traps and kills what every its supposed too it can leave a team very vunerable with its underwhelming power and being locked into a move. Pawnaird one of the most common pokemon in the tier can come in next turn and get a free Swords Dance if Goth is locked into psychic for example,

Diglett on the other hand is a lot harder to set up on after it has trapped something and it is basically impossible if it carries memento. The ability to switch moves, and options like Memento, Sucker Punch gives it some utility after it has trapped a pokemon. Sure a priority user can come in and stop it after it has trapped something but it isn't total set up bait like Goth especiallly with Pawn being so common.

I don't really know if Diglett is broken but im starting to lean towards banning it because its making team building a bit stale, unless i'm running a very defensive team, my offensive teams have to have two rock or steel types or two fletch switch ins just so my team won't get run over by fletch dig or dig zig.

and regarding "diglett didn't do much lcpl semis" that just backs up what i'm saying about it restricting team building by having to pack multiple fletch checks look at the teams of the person not using dig

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-83109 Onix and Honedge two fletch counters
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-83323 Archen and Mag, two fletch counters
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-83233 Tirt, Chinchou and ponyta sorta

They were the 3 games in the semis that had diglett, excluding the game where both players brought dig. Of course most fletch switch ins are just good pokemon to have on teams anyway and are top tier chinchou, archen, pawn come to mind but I feel like for me it restricts team building a bit and teams would be less stale with a free slot on you're team that doesn't have to be another electric, steel, rock-type
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I haven't yet obtained reqs, because it's been a gross misadventure, but I'm bored on a Sunday afternoon, so I figure I may as well share my opinions on the two suspects.

Gothita is basically the perfect Pokemon to possess the ability Shadow Tag. Considering its lower than average stats, its decent-but-not-overwhelming coverage options, and its mediocre typing, it's the perfect candidate to receive such a strong ability, from a competitive standpoint. I feel like these factors combine to create a Pokemon that really belongs in the metagame; it brings a unique niche to the table, and it can perform its supporting job well, but it isn't too consistently good to the point where it can always successfully remove a number of undesirable threats.

Although Gothita can quite consistently remove a threat, potentially turning the tide of a game, I feel as though it surrenders just as much momentum. Last month, 93.13% of Gothita had Choice Scarf as a held item in the highest level of Little Cup play. It basically needs this item in order to outspeed more than just Timburr and Skrelp. This means it can revenge kill the likes of Foongus and Mienfoo with Psychic, but it surrenders momentum immediately to a Dark- or Steel-type. This usually turns Gothita into a one-for-one. It is uncommon for Gothita to trap more than a single Pokemon in a game, and I believe this keeps it balanced in the metagame.

Opinions on Diglett will come later.
 
I'm just gonna comment on this matter rly short becuz I'm lazy

Gothita
Pros
- Can shoot down threats fast on trap with scarf
- Good movepool to effectively abuse its ability
- Ability to screw up walls with trick scarf
Cons
- Loses momentum instantly
- Lacks that tiny bit of fire power to finish off mons that it checks
- Put at immediate danger after taking out a mon

Gothita is no way a 'broken' mon imo. Although it can be used effectively to remove threats to your team, it can potentially lead to the opponent using your own gothita as an advantage (Pawniard, Tirtouga, etc...). Also, it's frailness and lack of priority makes it a mon that has to be used with caution and becomes more of a 'one time use' after taking damage.
Overall, I believe Gothita is performing as a healthy, useful tool (strategy) in the meta. It isn't overly threatful, nor is it a bad mon. It can be a real pain when used well, but that's the same to most other decent mons too.

Not worth a ban

Diglett
Pros
- Can shoot down threats with a fast 20 speed
- Good typing lets it effectively abuse its ability
- Good support movepool to benefit the team after doing its job
- Versatile movesets that adds a bit of an unpredictable taste
Cons
- Sub par damage without LO and not quite effective vs non super effective mons
- Extremely frail without help of sash, which can be broken by common hazards
- The only thing it can do against scarfers and priority is a desperate Sucker Punch
- All it can do when it faces a bulky mon is set up rocks or switch out unless you have memento or final gambit

Unlike Gothita, Diglett seems to be a rather more dangerous mon in the meta. While this is true, this doesn't mean that it's soooo broken to be ban worthy. Diglett tends to be extremely effective against many important mons such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Magnemite, Ponyta, Skrelp, Larvesta, Abra, etc... However, one must be cautious even when facing these mons that Diglett checks. Scarf Magnemite and Scarf Chinchou ruins Diglett with a wrong predicted switch in on Scald or Flash cannon. Pawniard forces a 50/50 with sucker punch and Diglett's Substitute. Ponyta's Will o Wisp makes it impossible to switch in, and Abra's sash means that only sash Diglett can remove it and this doesn't even work if rocks are up. Skrelp and Larvesta are bulky enough to tank a sash Diglett's hit, and screw Diglett up.

Another noticable aspect of Diglett is that while it can be a real terror for the mons listed above, it's just a useless little mole against bulky, or non super effective mons. The most noticable example is Trace Porygon, Diglett's best buddy. Mienfoo, which is the most commonly used and overly centralized mon is another something that Diglett dislikes because of its bulk and recovery, same goes with Timburr. Fletchling, our favorite bird loves hitting Digletts with priority OHKO Acrobatics. Like this, Diglett is a mon that can either shine or be comepletely useless depending on matchup. It fails to perform well enough against mons besides it checks.

One may say "Can't you just trap the mons you check and switch out against bulky mons?" Well... it is possible, but that doesn't mean you would like affording your other teammates getting worn down or a predicted u turn to give the game's pace to your opponent. Similar to Gothita, Diglett has to remain as a temporary solution to create an advantage to your team, or else you'll eventually end up finding the wrong result from what you originally planned for. Using Diglett means that you'll have to risk the damage that other teammates will take for it, and the quick loss of a valuable slot out of the 6.

However, what I really care about Diglett isn't all the stuff I said above. What's important that matters is that once Diglett gets banned, the meta will once again become extremely unstable. Abras and Ponytas will begin to thrive, along with Magnemites and Chinchous constantly volt turning in front of the opponent's sad face. Skrelp and Larvesta will have no fear anymore and start randomly pressing buttons with great bravery. People will be forced to put in Stunkys or Houndours and Drilburs in every single one of their teams, and they will fear upon once they realize the fact that they no longer have enough pokemon slots to put in the loads of checks they need against all these mons that became unbound after Diglett ban. Is this what we're really wanting? Is Diglett really THAT hard to deal with? People will just start whining about all the mons that got really broken after the disappearance of Diglett, demanding for more bans and more bans and bans and bans and even more bans... Why are we all constantly searching for something to ban? I think this is finally the time to settle down and break this endless ban cycle. The meta atm is amazingly balanced, and Diglett is playing a big role in making this possible.

I think banning Diglett in this situation is completely useless, stupid, and not worthy. We're just working hard to get rid of another valuable mon that gives life to another playstyle, trap, and gives us the happiness of not needing to spam the whole team only with rank S or A mons.

Not ban worthy

P.S. Diglett itself will be sad too because it will no longer be able to trap itself #freediglett2015
 
Last edited:

Akkeshi

I COULD BE BANNED!
Okay so a little late with this one but nearly finished my requirements so here goes. I find it strange how a few months ago during the baton pass suspect barely anyone voted for gothlette trapping to be brought to suspect, and yet here we are months later and people are calling for a ban. Trapping is hardly a new strategy that's emerged in the last few months but suddenly there's enough concern to bring it to suspect. I personally believe the tier is perfectly balanced and suspecting existing Pokemon/abilities within the tier will only make things less balanced, I would also like to suggest that the TL's look outside of the tier to previously banned Pokemon for the next round.

Diglett
Yes it's fast but it's not exactly sweeping teams or forcing 50/50's every single battle. It's greatly versatile in that it can be a sash lead to setup rocks, it can add a little more power with a life orb/sub variant and if you're really hip you can run banded diglett.
Sashrocks lead diglett serves as a great check to abra, although if that sash is broken it's pretty useless against sashbra. There are the same users every thread who complain about abra being broken, after encountering a few of these people on the ladder and watching tour battles the reason is, they run abra weak teams! Diglett is not Pokemons answer to abra but if you make a few right plays with diglett you can trap it and outspeed it or weaken it to a point where a priority move will faint it.
A little less relevant than the previous point but also notable, diglett can bypass common taunt users like mienfoo giving you more or less guaranteed rocks. This variant is also serves as a great revenge killer, as I said with abra, you can also revenge chinchou, elekid and plenty of other Pokemon.
My preferred diglett set, which I've seen in much greater abundance than the sash set thus far on the ladder is the life orb set. EQ + Sub + Sucker Punch + SR/Filler is a great pawniard lure so long as your opponent isn't aware of the set. It also allows you to hit a little bit harder since base 55 attack is pretty weak, even by LC standards (literally the same as foon). With the increasing popularity of this, at least as far as I've seen, the sucker lure seems to be a bit of a grey area since pawn can easily spam attacks to prevent the substitute from going up.
The points I've made so far are highlighting the great potential of diglett in Little Cup but I feel its flaws certainly reduce how much of a threat it is. Most teams carry at least one choice scarfed pokemon which is almost always guaranteed to outspeed diglett. Yes you can make the play of switching in on a volt switch, but if you overpredict you risk your diglett being OHKO'd by an attack. Priority and speed are necessities on any well built LC team so a common problem is that after successfully revenge killing/trapping a weak pokemon, diglett is easily revenge killed itself. I have already mentioned the pretty lowly base 55 attack stat which means that barring super effective attacks/attacks on things like abra and gastly, diglett isn't really posing much of an offensive threat. I get that people are concerned with the trapping aspect rather than the offensive one but I am in the opinion that this flaw is significant enough to make it competitive as opposed to "uncompetitive" (buzz words). I doubt it really needs explaining but the base 25 defence is also a massive drawback, as I said there are a lot of priority/scarf abusers in the tier that are more or less guaranteed to beat it every single time.
Some that come to mind:
196 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 9-12 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 16-21 (88.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 23-31 (127.7 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 19-24 (105.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You get the idea, diglett is weak offensively and defensively but can serve as a great revenger killer and utility pokemon. My verdict however on diglett is that it isn't in the faintest bit broken and not banworthy.


Gothita
Now to the slightly more controversial trapper, in my opinion. The shadow tag ban from all tiers below OU definitely makes questioning the nature of shadow tag in LC fair. The only completely viable goth set in LC is the scarf; Psychic + Trick + Tbolt + e-ball/hpfire. LC is funny in that psychic typing is actually great offensively. The fight spam and poison prevalence in the tier allow pokemon like abra and goth to be great offensively. One could argue that the calm mind set is viable but even with eviolite, which contrary to the XY Smogon analysis, it pretty much never carries, 50 base defence and no recovery mean that goth can easily be revenged by a physical attacker, a certain "P" comes to mind here.
The main point of discussion with goth that seems to irk people is that it can open up teams for another offensive pokemon to exploit. I'm going to sound pigheaded for saying this again but if you can't handle one pokemon after you lose a single potential wall or check in your team, it's bad teambuilding! I'm not excluding myself from doing this either but if you have an LC team without resistances/priority/taunt and or encore/phazing moves/status to hinder, or you rely on one Pokemon to do these things, you are inviting yourself to be swept. Goth can be paired to enable a sweep more easily, I've also seen it used to great effect on baton pass teams (not discussing this one), but the long and short of it is, it doesn't guarantee sweeps/wins if it's played against a well built team. I feel like I'm stressing the same point here as I did in the baton pass suspect so I'll stop here.
So with common goth you either have the option to trick something or faint it. Tricking is often great for momentum at the expense/weakening of your gothita. Things like ferroseed and foon become a lot less of a nuisance and you can setup if sweep if the opposing team is weakened/exposed all round but I don't think this makes it eligible for a ban.
Goth suffers from a pretty feeble special attack in the same way diglett is hindered by its attack. Base 55 doesn't even allow it to OHKO a lot of the stuff it's supposed to trap, something I've seen again and again whilst playing on the ladder. 252 isn't the most common spatk (LC spreads) but the damage calc doesn't have a default spread.
252 SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can knock off or uturn out)
252 SpA Gothita Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah this loses but can weaken goth to the point it's useless with iron head/bullet seed)
252 SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can spore then giga/sludge for damage)
252 SpA Gothita Energy Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (volt switch out)

I know these are specific scenarios above and this suspect isn't supposed to be about nitpicking. I find shadow tag to be annoying in OU and ubers as well but it's not a broken ability. Goths weak offences and limited utility make for fairly massive flaws. I can say with confidence that the only times I've lost to gothita have not been because it's broken but are down to misplays/good players on my/my opponents part. Goth is in my opinion not banworthy.

I look forward to reading the criticism of my points and the posting in response to some of the previous posts. Happy laddering.

 
I'm going to make A Post...

BUSINESS MATTERS:
akkeshi said:
There are the same users every thread who complain about abra being broken, after encountering a few of these people on the ladder and watching tour battles the reason is, they run abra weak teams!
thanks for the subtweet on smogon.com, Guy! yes i run "abra-weak" teams; most players run "abra-weak teams". the only teams that are not "abra-weak teams" are those that run stunky. Porygon? get 2hko'd by lo psychic. Munchlax is a fringe mon, Lickitung is nearly unviable - run those only for abra and you have the word "overcentralizing" creep into discourse. Encounter a FS abra w/ offense and prepare to have the Ride of Your Life! engaging in "fun" 50/50s to see if you lose one mon or two. "Oh shrug, Abra cant do both things (to reiterate: sash bullshit and lo annihilation) because it cant hold two items!! guess who knows the item of the other Abra: the other player! so guess what that is for the non-abra guy: another guessing game. Just because you dont know how to play abra - I'll spare you the embarrassment of giving the people the replay of you losing to my quickpass with a) clear smog foongus b) pawniard and c) focus sash abra, which together might be a full fucking ct - doesnt mean it isnt good.

i didnt want to do that but y'know im not going to let bullshit happen to me

SLIGHTLY CONVOLUTED, DELIBERATELY VAGUE (FOR BOTH REASONS THAT I WANT IT VAGUE TO HOLD INTEREST AND THAT I'M SHALLOW AND SEE POINTLESS OBFUSCATION AS INDICATIVE OF INTELLIGENCE) QUESTION

I've increasingly realized this entire suspect discussion is a philosophical tiering question masquerading as an individual mon (because really, gothita was an obligation to prevent a seeming onastic [if ur a nerd you'll get the joke] debate about Diglett and to preserve the "two by two" typical tiering thaang) debate thread. It's a mirror instead of a window. by that i mean posts in this thread solely reflect an individual user's opinion about tiering and how it should be carried out rather than offering particular insight into the true workings of the meta vis a vis diglett. I'll take up this thread later. but now

INTERLUDE TO ARTICULATE POSITIONS MENTIONED IN "QUESTION"

there exist three views on Dig that i've seen
1) that dig is an overall good for the metagame, that trapping certain metagame threats takes skill and tilts the balance of power in lc in a favorable way
2) that dig is a bad (inimical to metagame development and centralizing and perhaps a touch too strong) thing for the metagame, but meets no banworthy criteria as currently written and thus should not be banned as a result
3) that dig is a bad thing for the meta, and tiering is a system designed to remove things "bad", so the system should be bent back or the criteria of a banworthy mon interpreted liberally to allow for the removal of a mon causing harm.

[notes on above list]
- the reason why i italicized a line in 2) is to highlight the essential difference between it and 3). 2) supporters feel the banworthy criteria as written (or more accurately generally perceived, because there's no "real document" down that is current; Merritt cited verbatim the 2008 pr thread, which makes him the Scalia of this debate - im nervous if the characteristics thread read "blacks get 3/5s the suspect votes of whites" he'd be lobbying to enact that change on glassglaceon) do not support a dig ban; a position i agree with. However, i'm still unsure if we should shift the criteria of banning to meet dig, and the good / harm tradeoff there, (actually prolly why im writing so much is to clarify my own feelings, which calls into question why i care so much about pokemons and decisions made therein, especially given how little some users give a shit, oh shit im having an existential crisis at 10:30 EST about pokemon and i have Calc to do, return to the main text Shrug ).
- there are also people who imply dig is bad and doesnt get enough trapping kills, but they mostly say shit like "oh just dont run dig-weak mons / teams" thinking that having <1.5 ground-weak pokemon means you are immune to diglett fucking you up; if you think this earnestly please save some time and look at pictures of other things instead of continuing this post. I get that "easy" dig kills (the ones it gets when the opp is at full hp) are a good starting point but if you think like dig doesnt trap mienfoo relatively easily or that that isnt important it's hard to have a discussion; also i fully embrace the opinion that trapping mienfoo is a good thing, but it isnt an insignificant one.

to further elaborate on the list i drew a chart in ms paint:
upload_2015-8-31_19-44-32.png


before you all "go in" on the low quality of my Painting skillz i remind you that i am very tired from wrestling and also that we tolerate Brazilian Army 's english on the subforum.

yeah chart is pretty much what you'd expect, some overlap to reflect a variety of opinions within each camp. For me i'd be in the overlap of the lavender and red circles, cant decide which one would claim me though.

CONNECTION BACK TO "QUESTION", BUT FIRST ANOTHER POINT

Diglett is definitely a change in the way lc (mons in general) is played. Mambo and I concurred that change is value-neutral; it might be a good change or it might be a bad change, but being different doesnt make it eo ipso banworthy. However, if you look at an entire game as a system, it doesnt really change much at all. Each turn you need to take into account the risks / payoffs / needs / outcomes of each action and coaction (meaning the other dude's move, not a reaction because they are contemporaneously selected). Diglett doesnt alter that. It just changes the calculus of a given move because it makes most moves more risky, because vulnerablizing (dont look it up) oneself to a guaranteed kill is a dangerous (and in an overwhelming number of cases undesirable) position. Which means it does a similar thing to other "broken" or if so inclined as to be no-ban, "good" mons: make a lot of moves bad for the player not using that mon. But diglett is looked at separately because of the fact (in terms of the reduction of possible literal clicks in a battle) it is "different" and the standard defs of broken do not accommodate different with a supreme degree of precision. So maybe Diglett should be looked at in terms of its influence on other mons and options later by the other trainer, in which case it would be more comparable to more traditional broken things, but given that arguments is very conceptual and thus subjective (because it occurs in your own head) it's prolly not the best basis for an argument. my bad.

A REAL CIRCLING BACK, AS I FUCKED UP THE LAST ONE

So in my opinion those three schools of thought regarding tiering are what should be looked at more in this thread. rather than citing "Diglett beats this pokemons. it doesnt beat this pokemons" in order to post, perhaps consider more broadly how diglett works and functions: the things it kills that are not obvious but can happen easily in repeatable situations with well-made teams, the effects of kills, even the opportunity cost of Dig (an argument for which Heysup got a little shit but i feel like has merit). But looking at dig through a meta lens can only be helpful in discerning its banworthyness.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
the reason why i italicized a line in 2) is to highlight the essential difference between it and 3). 2) supporters feel the banworthy criteria as written (or more accurately generally perceived, because there's no "real document" down that is current; Merritt cited verbatim the 2008 pr thread, which makes him the Scalia of this debate - im nervous if the characteristics thread read "blacks get 3/5s the suspect votes of whites" he'd be lobbying to enact that change on glassglaceon) do not support a dig ban; a position i agree with. However, i'm still unsure if we should shift the criteria of banning to meet dig, and the good / harm tradeoff there,
Here's the old "portrait of an Uber" definition that, granted we don't use anymore since it was made in 2008, helps categorize what we're talking about.
I quoted the old characteristic of an Uber thread in order to move the discussion away from posts about how terrible diglett is defensively and how it can't sweep teams. That's not the point of Diglett, it's a support mon. I was trying to frame the discussion in terms of what people should look at with Diglett, ironically trying to move the discussion closer to what you propose, looking at Diglett not as itself but as an effect on battles and the metagame as a whole. There's no need to suggest that I'm a racist or whatever the fuck you're trying to say.

If you want me to go all Scalia on you though I'll bite.

From the official Smogon Philosophy, essentially the mission statement of the whole site. Again, perhaps a bit dated, but still something to keep in mind.

Smogon's Philosophy said:
Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.
This was originally put in the context of why legendary Pokemon like Articuno or Jirachi are Smogon-legal, but it can be easily suited for our purposes. LC, at the moment, is a fairly balanced metagame. There are multiple viable options, even some of the most esoteric mons can be useful on specific teams, and nothing in the meta is impossible to stop. That says, to me, that the metagame is fairly balanced.

However you might say that diversity is a worthy goal to strive towards. By banning Diglett we will presumably allow for the poor oppressed A ranked Ponyta to really shine in the meta along with its other fire and poison brethren. A diverse metagame is what we work towards, right?

Not so. Let's go back to Smogon's Philosophy.

Back to S.P.! said:
Why, [Smogon Visitors] wonder, is Beautifly or Flareon not represented as well as others like Tyranitar or Hydreigon? The simple response, which has been touched on, is that Pokémon has tiers. In the competitive arena, victory is paramount—and against high-tier Pokémon, lesser Pokémon are simply shut out by the virtue of poor moves, poor stats, or both...
The UU (and RU and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal
A Pokemon does not have a "right" to be useful. Not all Pokemon are created equal. The typing of a Pokemon can absolutely affect how viable it actually is, whether that's through an inefficient defensive typing, poor offensive typing, or just that it's very trappable by Diglett. The thing is, we don't ban stuff in order to increase the viability of certain Pokemon, we do it when a Pokemon stops allowing for a balanced metagame.

If you want to use Pokemon seen as "unviable" in LC then we've created a wonderful thing called LCUU that fulfills a similar purpose to the UU and RU and NU mentioned in the quote. If the Pokemon that you deem "unviable due to Diglett's presence" aren't there then obviously there's an issue there, but apparently it's that you insist that Ponyta isn't a viable (or "safe" but why does it deserve to constantly be safe?) option because of diglett while most other players are going to keep using it and winning.

Here's one last thing I'm going to quote from. It's very, VERY conservative on banning, I'll warn you (a bit too much for my tastes even) but it's a good read.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

What Should Be Banned said:
Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare.

...
Akuma [a secret character in a fighting game] is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.
...

It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat [a character in a fighting game who was soft banned due to making approximately half of the cast unviable]. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.
If we were to use Sirlin's philosophy directly, then Ubers would be the official metagame of Smogon, every mon in LC would be legal (dragon rage would likely still be banned), and overall it would be fun for the kinds of people who like that kind of stuff. We're a bit more liberal, we follow the philosophy of 100% more characters is worth losing Old Sagat. However, we shouldn't just go after the "best thing" to ban. Suspects are fine but you might have noticed that Smogon has a tendency to bandwagon on banning. Less skilled players are more likely to call for an unwarranted ban and they have a significant voice in suspects (including LC's now). That's an issue with the suspect process however, and not really the subject of debate.

I don't think Diglett should be banned. I'm very happy with the diversity we have in mons currently; it's not a matter of Diglett reducing the number of viable mons by half. In addition, I feel that a balance between diversity and centralization needs to be set. LC doesn't need to get to the point where Skitty is a top tier threat if that comes at the cost of banning the best thing over and over again.

Also apt-get you could probably twist this to a call for suspecting missy pretty easily.

(That Scalia enough for you Shrug?)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top