Grass/Water/Fire Cores... Are they really necessary for balance?

[Scruffy]

I'm curious what the UU community thinks about the advantages (and possible disadvantages) of having a Grass/Water/Fire core in the UU metagame. Does having such a core only increase the synergy or does it affect more than that? Is it because of the lack of wall breakers that this type of core does so well in UU? (I'm mostly asking this because OU doesn't integrate this type/core nearly as much as it is seen in UU)

Personally I think such a core is perfect for Balance teams and is practically necessary for such a type of team. It seems that with Venasaur, Arcanine, and any one of the big assortment of UU bulky waters seems to make very good cores that make the opponent rely on prediction to overcome immediately. I think this is why "Spike-Stacking" is such a good strategy simply because G/W/F cores rely on being able to switch to a useful resistance within the core, and spikes helps wear them down much faster.

Why is this combo such an asset to UU teams? I just think it's amazing how such a core can be an overcentralized piece in most balance teams.


Discuss/Opinions?



Edit: What G/W/F pokemon have you personaly used, and why did you run them specifically? Just curious what possible G/W/F core pokemon are possible in making a successful core.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

A large part of this is due to the effect of prevailing OU trends on the UU metagame. Grass / Fire / Water provides naturally good synergy both offensively and defensively, but Grass and Fire as types suffer somewhat in the OU environment. They are nerfed offensively by the continuous dominance of Dragon types, especially Grass because of the Steel prevalence that comes with that. Defensively they struggle to cope with the lack of any recovery in Sandstorm and Stealth Rock, especially with Fire types as the Bug resist isn't much use unless you can keep yourself alive and switch in multiple times.

In UU, all these problems are much less apparent, and benefit almost as much from the fact that the best Pokemon from most other types are not available for selection, whilst Water is an excellent type regardless of the metagame.

 

[diinbong]

Yep, what Lemmiwinks is saying is definetly true. Notice that there are no pure Fire- or Grass-types in OU, so obviously the selection/availability is better in UU. It definetly also has to do with the lack of attackers who can beat all three, and simply adding a Registeel for Ghost- and Dark-types or a Ghost for Fighting-types makes it pretty damn solid...

 

[Stagnant]

I hardly ever go all out with the FGW combo as I either use Grass-Water combo or Fire-Water combo depending on my Rapid Spinner. Grass-Water is generally my defensive combo while Fire-Water is my offensive. Examples of ones I use...

Grass-Water
Venusaur-Blastoise
Jumpluff-Milotic

Fire-Water
Entei-Quilfish
Arcanine-Azumarril

Generally speaking anything outside of the FWG combo is weak to Dark attacks or Fighting attacks and that is the reason that I don't use the complete FWG combo. Occasionally, if I use Venusaur or Quilfish they will act as my Fighting attack buffer (and will always be backed by a Dark-type.

 

[Scruffy]

Agreeing with Lemmiwinks as well.. The fact that Dragon/Steel is prevelant and used successfully in OU makes a hard transition for G/W/F to make a duel existance because Dragon/Steel can resist all three of those elements, of course when played right.

I've been running a LO Flash Fire Arcanine, Water Absorb Sub/Encore Poliwrath, and a Mix-Wallbreaking Venasaur as my G/W/F core and it's worked exactly as it needs to, drawing on each others weaknesses perfectly. Encore on Poliwrath ensures that I can come in on something no matter what because of the resistances they have. I also think that running Steelix for an extra Electric resist synergizes perfectly with the G/W/F core, since Steelix can draw out Fire, Water, and some grass attacks (or just mainly Venasaur).

Editing my original post to ask what G/W/F cores that you have personly used and have had good success with.

 

[Smurf.]

One of the problems that arises by using a core of Arcanine/Venusaur/ assorted bulky waters is that it becomes all too predictable, especially if you dont have any other resisters to X offensive typing. Once you reveal your arcanine switch in to venusaur the next time around it will EQ straight off and catch you out. Once one part of the core is gone the defensive stability afforded by fire/water/grass will be severely compromised

 

[Bluewind]

I wouldn't say necessary, but I'd say they are one of the keys to the success of an UU team. In this stage of the metagame I have been running a team that doesn't not contain a Fire poké, only Water and Grass; and even though I have been successful with it, I have to say I feel the impact during matches. That impact presents itself on many forms, but the most notable situations are when it comes to absorbing WoW, when i'm forced to have Milotic take it and when I notice how much rely on Honchrow to cover part of the metagame, a job that would've been made much easier had I employed a Fire-type on the team.
Changing the subject a bit, a Fire poké that has not been mentioned and yet is very useful is Moltres, with his 4x resistances to Grass, immunity to Ground, resistance to Fighting, instant recovery and so on.

 

[-Terywj-]

It's not absoultely necessary but it's very beneficial to offensive, balanced, and hell even stall teams.

Great offensive notes: Azumarill, Feraligatr, Arcanine, Moltres, Leafeon
Great defensive notes: Milotic, Tangrowth, Venusaur

-Terywj

 

[Yuggles]

I always use a water/fire combo. Since all the grass types except Venasaur are pretty shady, I sometimes avoid grass if Venasaur doesn't fit. I find Steel to be more important than any three of the g/f/w combo, though.

 

[Despotar]

My UU teams usually have fire/water/grass/steel/dragon+something else.

 

[LoveHate]

I agree it is such an over centralized core. Although predictable it does create heavily prediction based games which makes it fun in my opinion. I am currently using a core of Arcanine, Venusaur, and Poliwrath each abusing thier respective type

 

[Evisu]

I think that a G/W/F core can be quite successful, before the dominance of Scizor in the OU metagame the team that probably won me more games than any team I've made was a team with a G/W/F core of Heatran, Celebi, and Vaporeon.

Almost every OU team that runs the infamous Celetran has a bulky water to back it up. Sure it isn't as good in OU as a Steel/Dragon/Ghost core but it still can be used with favorable results. I wouldn't write it off so quickly just because it is more prevalent in UU doesn't mean it can't work in OU.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

I only run a Water type in my UU team, and it works pretty well by itself. I think the Grass/Water/Fire combo is too easy predict around these days since every team has that same core, but different Pokemon in those slots. It's effective, but predictable.

Also, you only need Registeel and Altaria as a defensive core. They both cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, and I'm amazed they don't see more use. It's essentially the UU Celetran.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

My UU teams usually have fire/water/grass/steel/dragon+something else.

What can you use for your Dragon though? The only viable ones I can think of are Dragonair and Altaria, and that's not really the best choice.

Even with Steel-types, it's not much better, having to choose out of pretty much Registeel, Magneton, Aggron and Steelix.

Water-types are no problem though, as there's plenty to spread around through each tier.

 

[HellsHunter]

The G/W/F core isn't necessary to make a good UU team, but some teams function a lot better with it. I've 5 UU teams atm, and only 2 of them have a G/W/F core. The others function as good without it, it just depends on the team.

The two teams with the core are based around a Water type and a Fire type respectively. That makes sense, because: The water type is getting walled by Grass types like Venusaur and Bulky Waters. A Fire type can take out the Grass types, while a Grass type takes out Bulky Waters.

The other one is based around a Fire type. He is walled by Bulky Waters and some other Fire types. A Grass type can take out the Bulky Waters, and a Water type can take out the Fire types.

Conclusion: Water, Fire and Grass types complement each other almost perfect offensively and defensively.

 

[M BLADE]

It's probably the best core in UU(pretty much like steel/dragon in OU).
But those cores(as pretty much any other) has a hard time countering something that can hit all three types for at least neutral damage, and that hits hard(Honchrow and Aggron comes in mind now)

I think that i used this core just once... with the combination of Magmortar/Exeggutor/Whiscash. It was shaky... but only because they were all offensive. Exeggutor has a good HP/def and Whiscash has good HP though.

 

[MetaGross66]

I've attempted this core back in 08 with an OU team not knowing it would be as effective as it was. This thread actually reminded me of it. It consisted of Heatran/Breloom/Swampert, and it had few problems. I'm going to go ahead and see if I can make a better core using Tentacruel/Celebi/Moltres. It seems more defensive to me, and I can straight out see a problem with Tyranitar and Rotom. The rest of the team can handle it. They definitely have problems with dragons which is why something like jirachi with wish support can help, but I want to look at all the possibilities first. Is it possible to make a G/W/F core successfully in OU? That's what I want to see if I can do.

 

[jamashawalker]

I
Additionally, an offensive combo of Blaziken / Magmortar + Altaria could prove useful, as Dragon + Fire = Perfect coverage in UU. And Magmortar's Thunderbolt could deter Water types like Slowbro from coming in.

I dont see why Magmortar is being used as much in today's UU metagame...yeah the Stealth rock weakenss+ spikes adds up, but when played right it can devistate a whole team especially seeing as how this metagame runs on an 80 base speed range...and magmar should be used alot too with belly drum+Mach punh/crosschop...hmmm...

lol anyways...I see more after platinum and HGSS came out that ppl started focusing ALOT more on the Grass/water/fire core...the original was Roserade/blaziken/milotic...now that venasaur got power whip, and arcanine got morning sun and gallade/honchkrow/raikou were dropped down...its no wonder why venasaur and arcanine are used alot more now...and jsut add something else to back their weakness up, Bulky Water

to kinda go off the topic a bit...as well all know this metagame is completely spike oriented due to the numerous switching out in UU...and as scruffy said WGF is the core in a balance team...there are very few pokes in UU that can just sweep an entire team like gyrados/lucario/salamence etc...Where im going with this is that UU isnt the type of metagame where one switches in and its gg for the oppenent if their counter is weakened...UU is taking out one poke at a time with the teams like the WGF core and constant switching in and out which is one reason why spikes has a high usage in UU...lol heh a bit off topic yet still a point

 

[IronBullet]

I agree that such cores are extremely effective in that they offer useful resistances and immunity to status.
However, such cores are very prone to entry hazards, especially SR for the fire types. Hence I feel that a grass/water defensive core is effective enough.
I myself have used a SpDefensive Venu/Defensive Milotic core to great success. But one thing to consider when using these cores is residual damage. If spikes and sr are up, constant switching can cause even resisted attacks to hurt and the core can easily be worked around.

 

[MetaGross66]

This is very true. In OU where SR is nearly everywhere a spinner is almost necessary and Tentacruel provides that, as well as a stalling element, a water typing, and a decent way to counter Roserade leads as I set up Moltres from the first few turns. It almost guarantees a loss against teams that lead with Roserade which is quite amazing as quite a few do.

Blastoise seems almost necessary on UU balanced teams being able to spin as well, though Hitmontop might be able to do it better.

 

[whistle]

in addition to spikestacking, things like swellow, tauros, honchkrow, etc that have extremely powerful attacks that hit you neutrally cause problems for this core. it is obviously solid though both offensively and defensively.

while spikestacking hurts the core, it can help it for the same reasons offensively; if you hit an opposing wall with a resisted attack with spikes and sr up they'll still take tons of damage, and double switching means you can force walls out before they get the chance to heal.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I took a quick look at 15 teams who either reached the ladder or achieved a CRE >1500. All of them except one had a grass type. All of them had a water type, and the vast majority of them had fire types (11 out of 15).

 

[Legacy Raider]

It's probably worth noting how many of the top fire / water / grass choices in UU have a reliable recovery move, which may be a big reason as to why these cores are so popular. Arcanine has Morning Sun, Moltres Roost; Venusaur, Torterra, and Tangrowth have Synthesis; Slowbro has Slack Off, and Milotic and Quagsire have Recover. Having an instant 50% recovery move goes a long way in making these Pokemon with non-too impressive defensive stats, such as Arcanine and Quagsire, solid components of a defensive core. It can help them take a lot more punishment and switch into resisted attacks for a lot longer during battle. In particular, with the relative lack of adverse weather in UU, Grass-types can use Synthesis to much greater effect, making them much sturdier than they otherwise would be in OU (where Celebi and its Recover sets it apart from its leafy brethren).

 

[Synre]

It's worth nothing too that almost all of the Pokemon that you'd consider in this defensive core are, by nature, defensive Pokemon that are powerful enough that they wouldn't have fallen to UU in previous generations. Milotic is a good example, it was one of the better defensive Pokemon in OU for most of Advance and is now toiling in UU, but it's still rocking its excellent 540 base stat total. Most of the highest BST UU pokemon fall under similar scenarios like the Regis (580), Uxie (580), Rhyperior (535), Tangrowth (535), and Donphan (500). They've kind of paid the price of the OU game this generation being so quick and offensively oriented and fallen down to UU, which has thus become much more defensive than its base game. Even though some people have mentioned having success with it, Fire/Grass/Water don't give you very good resistances in OU (especially since the main resistance people are looking for there is Dragon, which is a type that not coincidentally, none of the defensive Pokemon mentioned in this topic do well against) compared to UU where several of the main attackers are Fire types themselves, knocked down because of Stealth Rock, and where most attackers are simply enough lower down on the stat totem pole than the walls that they're able to help serve the generic wall role they have in previous generations in addition to basically protecting you from each other.

 

[Emerald Blaze]

I've, personally, never been too interested in the G/W/F trio. Probably because most teams I've made with the core never really worked out for me. The only sucess I've ever had with that trio was my Shaymin, Azumarill, and Blaziken offencive trio. As you can see, that's no good anymore. No other grass type has ever filled the void (Venusaur and Roserade lacked speed and Seed Flare). So I've given up on the G/W/F trio since it has failed on every team I've made since.

Right now, my current best team has a water and fire type. It's not my core as Arcanine and Kabutops don't have much synch with each other. However, they're both powerful pokemons and they rip hole's in my opposition's defence so my other pokemons can sweep.