Yeah, Safeguard is awesome, but it does raise the question of "What kind of trash team you running that Ledian's Safeguard is so dang important?"
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GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V
- Thread starter Turdterra
- Start date
There are only a few Pokemon remaining that need more playtesting (3 nominations) and I intend to do 2 Crystal and 1 Silver runs to test them.
Finished my first run today with Totodile, Dunsparce, Gastly (Trade), Exeggcute, Zubat and Suicune.
Here are my rough logs of all four:
Despite the fact that the RNG had it out for me when I tried to get the 1% encounter for Dunsparce, its performance in the major battles was actually not that bad. It comes pretty early and has few truely bad matchups. The low encounter chance does knock it down a tier, though. It also wants the Headbutt, Dig and maybe even Return TM, so it has some oppertunity cost. Dunsparce had two nominations for D-tier already and one for C-tier. I could see C-tier but to me D-tier for Dunsparce seems more fitting.
Gastly (Trade) already has 2 nominations for A-tier but that seems too high in my book. Until you get Gengar, Gastly and Haunter do have some serious problems. Hypnosis and Curse need to do some heavy lifting because for most of the game Gastly has no good attacking options. Until after gym 4, it only has Lick and Night Shade, and until Haunter evoles into Gengar, it only has Shadow Ball off of its bad attack stats. Gastly and Haunter don't learn the elemental punches, so their only special attack until Gengar is the weak Thief TM. And Haunter is really needing those elemental punches as soon as possible. I played with a rom where Haunter evolves into Gengar at level 37 and the battles of Gym 5,6 and 7 as well as Rival 4 are significantly worse without the elemental punches. Gengar's lower bulk and Poison typing are also sometimes a problem. Overall I don't see it in A-tier with all these problems. Befoer Gengar, Gastly and Haunter don't have too many good matchups. I think B-tier for Gastly (Trade) is more accurate.
Exeggcute is so sad in gen 2. Not only is it a stone evolution, which are time consuming to get until you get Fly, it also lacks its best moves until post game. No Psychic and not a single Grass Stab move. Hypnosis and Leech Seed are good support moves but if we assume Exeggutor is post gym 5, only having Confusion and Rollout is pretty pathetic. Later it gets Sludge Bomb but that is about it as far as its movepool is concerned. Still Exeggutor has pretty good stats, so its attacks aren't too weak and Hypnosis and Leech Seed coupled with its good bulk allow it to take down some difficult Pokemon. It had two nominations for D-tier and one for C-tier. While it is a pretty lukewarm nomination, in my opinion Exeggcute (Crystal) should go in C-tier. A Pokemon with such good stats that comes so early doesn't belong in D-tier.
Suicune is pretty annoying to catch since you don't have the Master Ball until after gym 8. Still, at least it is a static encounter in Crystal instead of a roaming Pokemon like in Gold and Silver. It becomes available pretty late in Tin Tower after the Team Rocket takeover, so it can't help with much anymore. Its movepool is also pretty barren with only Water and Ice moves. Still, it has pretty good stats, since it is a legendary Pokemon, so it does fair decently well in the remaining battles. Nothing to get exitent about, though. It has 1 nomination for B and D tier, as well as 2 nominations for C-tier.
And to me, C-tier for Suicune feels fair.
Finished my first run today with Totodile, Dunsparce, Gastly (Trade), Exeggcute, Zubat and Suicune.
Here are my rough logs of all four:
RNG had it out for me, 9 Tediursas before finding it / took 1 hour
Gym 1: level 10, Rage cleanly 2HKOs Pidgey and Pidgeotto, their attacks do almost nothing, performance S-tier
Gym 2: level 15, it cleanly sweeps with Rage, Defense Curl can increase its good bulk even further, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 17, Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly and Dunsparce walls it but Gastly can be annoying with Hypnosis and Spite, Rage 2HKOs Zubat, Rage 3HKOs Bayleef, it can be annoying with Growl or Reflect, performance B-tier
Gym 3: level 19, Rage 3HKOs Clefable, Rage then 2HKOs Miltank, Double Slap and other multi-hit moves from Clefable's Metronome makes the fight easier, Attract and Stomp can be annoying, performance B-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter gets OHKOed by Dig but will use Curse before forcing Dunsparce to switch out and back in again, Magnemite gets OHKOed by Dig, Zubat gets 2HKOed by Headbutt or Rage, Bayleef gets 3HKOed by Rage, Dunsparce probably needs 1 Super Potion during the fight, performance B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly and Haunter are OHKOed by Dig, Dunsparce then has to switch out and back in again because of Curse, Dig 2HKOs Gengar but Dunsparce has to dodge 2 Hypnosis, the last Haunter is also 2HKOed, a few Awakenings might be needed, performance B
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds and nearly always uses Leer first, but between Glare and Headbutt with Quick Claw, it is very easy to not get hit before Dunsparce knocks out Primeape in 2 hits, a neutral Karate Chop only did 40%, if Poliwrath hits Dynamic Punch, then it OHKOs Dunsparce. It can potentially cheese a win with Paraflinch hax but the odds are not great and Chuck even has a Full Heal, performance D-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Dunsparce outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with Dig, Steelix's Iron Tail is doing half and Dunsparce's Dig is just doing way too little damage, even with Glare, the chances are not good, peformance B/C-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is 2HKOed and Dewgong is 3HKOed by Headbutt or Strength, but Icy Wind and Rest can make the battle last a bit longer, Piloswine doesn't do much damage either, but a single Hyper Potion might be needed for this fight, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Dunsparce can rather easily take care of Golbat with Glare and 3 Headbutts while taking little damage, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Haunter is 2HKOed by Dig but Curse can be annoying, Sneasel only tickles Dunsparce and is 2HKOed by Strength, before taking on Meganium 1 Hyper Potion might be needed, Razor Leaf isn't doing too much and Dunsparce can chip it down with Glare and Headbutt, Reflect and Poison Powder can be annoying, performance B-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Dunsparce 2HKOs all three Dragonairs with Strength, while their special attacks only do around 25%, a Hyper Potions is needed before Kingdra, Kingdra's Surf is a 2HKO, so the most Dunsparce can do is Glare it, performance B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Sneasel can't really do much and gets 2HKOed, Golbat is also 2HKOed by Strength, Magneton doesn't do much damage and is 2HKOed by Dig + Headbutt, depending on the hax you need 1-2 Hyper Potions by this point, Haunter dies to Dig after it uses Curse, you can still stay in on Kadabra and OHKO it with Strength while it wastes its turn with Future Sight, but afterwards you have to heal and switch out and back in again due to Curse, Meganium can be chipped down again with Glare and Headbutt, maybe another Hyper Potion is needed, performance B-tier
Will: level 38, Xatu is faster and always uses Confuse Ray which don't give Glare a good chance to hit, its Psychic is also nearly a 2HKO, Strength + 2 Headbutts kill it, Jynx's Psychic is a 2HKO and it can also use Lovely Kiss, Strength is also not an OHKO, Exeggutor is faster and can get off a Leech Seed making Paraflinch attempts not work, its a losing matchup, it works better on Slowbro since it has less dangerous moves, Curse can make it very bulky, though, and its Psychic is still doing a ton, the second Xatu is thankfully also not 2HKOing Dunsparce with Psychic, so at it is possible to 1v1 it if Glare hits, performance D-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados is slower than Dunsparce and 2HKOed by Strength, Venomoth is also 2HKOed but it is faster and its Psychic does okay damage, Fortress is a massive wall for Dunsparce, it can be chipped down with Glare and Headbutt but it takes a lot of turns, Swift isn't doing much, though, and Dig can be used to dodge Explosion when Forry is beneath 30%, Dunsparce outspeeds Muk and Strength is a 3HKO, Sludge Bomb is doing a lot, though, and it has some annoying setup moves, Crobat is tough, Wing Attack does decent damage and it can troll with its status moves, Strength is a 4HKO but Paraflinch is likely the better choice, performance B/C-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop outspeeds Dunsparce but its Digs only deal 20% and Strength is a 3HKO, it is even possible to not get hit by Hitmontop at all by constantly using Dig to dodge its Digs, that does take 6 Digs and a lot of time to KO it, though, Hitmonlee does a lot of damage with its Fighting moves, Dunsparce has to get lucky with Glare to win this 1v1, Hitmonchan's Mach Punch is doing a lot and because of its priority Paraflinching is not an option, Strength is a 3HKO, though, but Dunsparce needs 1 Hyper Potion to win this matchup, Machamp is faster and just OHKOs with Cross Chop, even with its low attack stat, Onix is not a good matchup for Dunsparce, Dig is not doing that much and it risks additional damage from Earthquake, even Sandstorm does a lot of damage over time if Dunsparce tries to chip it down, performance D-tier
Karen: level 39, Umbreon can only really try to hax, Dunsparce can pretty safely paraflinch it down, Vileplume's Petal Dance does about 35%, but Dunsparce can also chip it down with the help of 1 Hyper Potion, Gengar is 2HKOed by Dig but it will use Curse which means another Hyper Potion is needed to offset the damage, afterwards Dunsparce has to switch out and back in again to get rid of Curse, Strength 2HKOs Murkrowbut its Faint Attack is also doing good damage to Dunsparce, Houndoom's Flamethrower is a clean 2HKO, so Dunsparce can't do more than get off a Glare, performance C-tier
Lance: level 39, Gyarados sets up rain and Hyper Beam does a lot of damage, Dunsparce can try to paraflinch it, 3 Headbutts and 1 Strength is enough to kill it, the Thunder and Blizzard Dragonites also 2HKOs with Hyper Beam and 2 Twisters into Thunder or Blizzard also KO, Glare and Headbutt are yet again Dunsparce best chance, healing support is required, Aerodactyl's Hyper Beam does about half, it resists all of Dunsparce moves but its lower bulk means it can still be flinched down in not too many hits, Charizard's Flamethrower is a clean 2HKO, Dunsparce can get a Glare off but if its Headbutt doesn't flinch, it is dead, Safeguard from the level 50 Dragonite prevents Dunsparce from using Glare, Outrage is a 2HKO and Strength only 5HKOs it, with heavy healing support Dunsparce can take on some of Lance's Pokemon, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Gym 1: level 10, Rage cleanly 2HKOs Pidgey and Pidgeotto, their attacks do almost nothing, performance S-tier
Gym 2: level 15, it cleanly sweeps with Rage, Defense Curl can increase its good bulk even further, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 17, Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly and Dunsparce walls it but Gastly can be annoying with Hypnosis and Spite, Rage 2HKOs Zubat, Rage 3HKOs Bayleef, it can be annoying with Growl or Reflect, performance B-tier
Gym 3: level 19, Rage 3HKOs Clefable, Rage then 2HKOs Miltank, Double Slap and other multi-hit moves from Clefable's Metronome makes the fight easier, Attract and Stomp can be annoying, performance B-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter gets OHKOed by Dig but will use Curse before forcing Dunsparce to switch out and back in again, Magnemite gets OHKOed by Dig, Zubat gets 2HKOed by Headbutt or Rage, Bayleef gets 3HKOed by Rage, Dunsparce probably needs 1 Super Potion during the fight, performance B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly and Haunter are OHKOed by Dig, Dunsparce then has to switch out and back in again because of Curse, Dig 2HKOs Gengar but Dunsparce has to dodge 2 Hypnosis, the last Haunter is also 2HKOed, a few Awakenings might be needed, performance B
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds and nearly always uses Leer first, but between Glare and Headbutt with Quick Claw, it is very easy to not get hit before Dunsparce knocks out Primeape in 2 hits, a neutral Karate Chop only did 40%, if Poliwrath hits Dynamic Punch, then it OHKOs Dunsparce. It can potentially cheese a win with Paraflinch hax but the odds are not great and Chuck even has a Full Heal, performance D-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Dunsparce outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with Dig, Steelix's Iron Tail is doing half and Dunsparce's Dig is just doing way too little damage, even with Glare, the chances are not good, peformance B/C-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is 2HKOed and Dewgong is 3HKOed by Headbutt or Strength, but Icy Wind and Rest can make the battle last a bit longer, Piloswine doesn't do much damage either, but a single Hyper Potion might be needed for this fight, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Dunsparce can rather easily take care of Golbat with Glare and 3 Headbutts while taking little damage, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Haunter is 2HKOed by Dig but Curse can be annoying, Sneasel only tickles Dunsparce and is 2HKOed by Strength, before taking on Meganium 1 Hyper Potion might be needed, Razor Leaf isn't doing too much and Dunsparce can chip it down with Glare and Headbutt, Reflect and Poison Powder can be annoying, performance B-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Dunsparce 2HKOs all three Dragonairs with Strength, while their special attacks only do around 25%, a Hyper Potions is needed before Kingdra, Kingdra's Surf is a 2HKO, so the most Dunsparce can do is Glare it, performance B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Sneasel can't really do much and gets 2HKOed, Golbat is also 2HKOed by Strength, Magneton doesn't do much damage and is 2HKOed by Dig + Headbutt, depending on the hax you need 1-2 Hyper Potions by this point, Haunter dies to Dig after it uses Curse, you can still stay in on Kadabra and OHKO it with Strength while it wastes its turn with Future Sight, but afterwards you have to heal and switch out and back in again due to Curse, Meganium can be chipped down again with Glare and Headbutt, maybe another Hyper Potion is needed, performance B-tier
Will: level 38, Xatu is faster and always uses Confuse Ray which don't give Glare a good chance to hit, its Psychic is also nearly a 2HKO, Strength + 2 Headbutts kill it, Jynx's Psychic is a 2HKO and it can also use Lovely Kiss, Strength is also not an OHKO, Exeggutor is faster and can get off a Leech Seed making Paraflinch attempts not work, its a losing matchup, it works better on Slowbro since it has less dangerous moves, Curse can make it very bulky, though, and its Psychic is still doing a ton, the second Xatu is thankfully also not 2HKOing Dunsparce with Psychic, so at it is possible to 1v1 it if Glare hits, performance D-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados is slower than Dunsparce and 2HKOed by Strength, Venomoth is also 2HKOed but it is faster and its Psychic does okay damage, Fortress is a massive wall for Dunsparce, it can be chipped down with Glare and Headbutt but it takes a lot of turns, Swift isn't doing much, though, and Dig can be used to dodge Explosion when Forry is beneath 30%, Dunsparce outspeeds Muk and Strength is a 3HKO, Sludge Bomb is doing a lot, though, and it has some annoying setup moves, Crobat is tough, Wing Attack does decent damage and it can troll with its status moves, Strength is a 4HKO but Paraflinch is likely the better choice, performance B/C-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop outspeeds Dunsparce but its Digs only deal 20% and Strength is a 3HKO, it is even possible to not get hit by Hitmontop at all by constantly using Dig to dodge its Digs, that does take 6 Digs and a lot of time to KO it, though, Hitmonlee does a lot of damage with its Fighting moves, Dunsparce has to get lucky with Glare to win this 1v1, Hitmonchan's Mach Punch is doing a lot and because of its priority Paraflinching is not an option, Strength is a 3HKO, though, but Dunsparce needs 1 Hyper Potion to win this matchup, Machamp is faster and just OHKOs with Cross Chop, even with its low attack stat, Onix is not a good matchup for Dunsparce, Dig is not doing that much and it risks additional damage from Earthquake, even Sandstorm does a lot of damage over time if Dunsparce tries to chip it down, performance D-tier
Karen: level 39, Umbreon can only really try to hax, Dunsparce can pretty safely paraflinch it down, Vileplume's Petal Dance does about 35%, but Dunsparce can also chip it down with the help of 1 Hyper Potion, Gengar is 2HKOed by Dig but it will use Curse which means another Hyper Potion is needed to offset the damage, afterwards Dunsparce has to switch out and back in again to get rid of Curse, Strength 2HKOs Murkrowbut its Faint Attack is also doing good damage to Dunsparce, Houndoom's Flamethrower is a clean 2HKO, so Dunsparce can't do more than get off a Glare, performance C-tier
Lance: level 39, Gyarados sets up rain and Hyper Beam does a lot of damage, Dunsparce can try to paraflinch it, 3 Headbutts and 1 Strength is enough to kill it, the Thunder and Blizzard Dragonites also 2HKOs with Hyper Beam and 2 Twisters into Thunder or Blizzard also KO, Glare and Headbutt are yet again Dunsparce best chance, healing support is required, Aerodactyl's Hyper Beam does about half, it resists all of Dunsparce moves but its lower bulk means it can still be flinched down in not too many hits, Charizard's Flamethrower is a clean 2HKO, Dunsparce can get a Glare off but if its Headbutt doesn't flinch, it is dead, Safeguard from the level 50 Dragonite prevents Dunsparce from using Glare, Outrage is a 2HKO and Strength only 5HKOs it, with heavy healing support Dunsparce can take on some of Lance's Pokemon, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Gym 1: level 10, can't touch any Pokemon, can only put things to sleep, performance D/E-tier
Gym 2: level 16, level 16 for Curse is super important, Ghastly walls Metapod, Kakuna and Scyther, Curse takes all three out, 2 Potion needed, without Curse it would run out of Licks on Scyther, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 16, Lick 3HKOs Gastly, 7HKOs Zubat with Hypnosis, Curse + Licks kill Bayleef, 3 Potion needed, performance B-tier
Gym 3: level 19, Hypnosis + Curse can take out both Clefable and Miltank, Rollout is doing a lot of damage, though, and Miltank is faster. Sketchy and needs multiple Potions, performance C-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter does big damage with Lick and Curse, Zubat takes too many Licks to kill and has Bite, Magnemite walls Gastly, Bayleef is the best matchup and still requires Curse to defeat, performance D/E-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Lick 2HKOs Gastly but it can still get a Curse off, Haunter can take out the first of Morty's Haunters if it misses Hypnosis, but Gengar's Shadow Ball ends its run at the latest, performance D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape can't touch Haunter and is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, Poliwrath is slower and can be put to sleep with Hypnosis (Chuck has 1 Full Heal, though), Shadow Ball and Night Shade are 4HKOs, Poliwrath's Surf is a 2HKO on Haunter, though. If Haunter has already evolve into Gengar, then it easily sweeps with Thunderpunch and better bulk, performance B/S (if Gengar) -tier
Gym 6: level 31, Haunter has to hit all its Hypnosises as it hates Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball only 4HKOs the two Magnemites and does barely anything to Steelix who also heavily threatens it with an OHKO from Iron Tail, Gengar with Fire Punch is much better as it OHKOs the Magnemites and Steelix should be 2 or 3HKOed, so Hypnosis is still needed, Iron Tail is not an OHKO this time, though, performance F/B (if Gengar)-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is 2HKOed by Haunter's Shadow Ball and still slower even after an Icy Wind, Haunter is also still faster than even Dewgong, so it can put it to sleep with Hypnosis, Aurora Beam doesn't do too much, Shadow Ball 3HKOs Dewgong, Piloswine can be put to sleep and Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, however its Blizzard is doing a ton of damage, if Haunter already evolved into Gengar, then the combination of Thunderpunch and Fire Punch sweeps rather easily, peformance C/B (if Gengar) -tier
Rival 4: level 32, Haunter is faster and can put it to sleep with Hypnosis, Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, Golbat can be threatening with Bite, Wing Attack and Confuse Ray, though, same story with Sneasel, Haunter outspeeds and Night Shade is a 3HKO, Faint Attack does a lot, Magnemite only 4HKOs with Thunder Shock, but Thunder Wave is annoying, Night Shade is a 2HKO, the enemy Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Meganium can't touch Haunter and is 3HKOed by Night Shade, Gengar sweeps easily with the elemental punches, performance B/S (if Gengar)-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Gengar 2HKOs all Dragonairs with Ice Punch, Thunder Wave is annoying and their special attacks do decent damage, 2 Hyper Potions and a Full Heal were needed, Kingdra's Surf is a 2HKO while Gengar's attacks only 4HKO, Hypnosis can help, performance B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Gegnar outspees Sneasel and Fire Punch OHKOs with Charcoal, Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, Bite or Wing Attack don't do too much, Magneton is OHKOed by Fire Punch, Haunter and Kababra are both outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Meganium is 2HKOed by Ice Punch and it can't touch Gengar, performance S-tier
Will: level 39, Xatu is barely not knocked out by Shadow Ball or Ice Punch, even with Never-Melt Ice, and the returning Psychic cleanly OHKOs Gengar, so Gengar can not stay in unless it wants to gamble with Hypnosis, Jynx is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball however, boosted Ice Punch is also barely not an OHKO on Exeggutor either, so another matchup it can't stay in on, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Thunder Punch but its Psychic is yet again strong enough to OHKO Gengar, the second Xatu has the first problems as the first one, even with some in-battle level ups to 40, it is barely not OHKOed and kills Gengar with Psychic, if Gengar is at like level 45 then it can probably get the important OHKOs on the two Xatus and Exeggutor, either way Gengar can not afford to take a single hit this battle, performance depens heavily on its level,
either S/A-tier if overleveled, otherwise D-tier
Koga: level 39, Ariados is 2HKOed by Fire Punch and can't do anything besides Baton Passing a Double Team, Venomoth is also 2HKO but its Psychic does 70%, Forretress is OHKOedy by Fire Punch, Muk is completely walled by Gengar but its good bullk means that it is only 4 or 5HKOed, Crobat is 2HKOed by Ice or Thunder Punch and Wing Attack is only doing 25%, performance S-tier
Bruno: level 39, Hitmontop is 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but Dig is also nearly a 2HKO on Gengar, Ice Punch cleanly OHKOs Onix, Gengar 2HKOs Hitmonlee with Shadow Ball who has to waste a turn with Foresight in order to hit Gengar, Hitmonchan can only hit Gengar with really weak elemental punches and is 3HKOed by Shadow Ball, Gengar will need 1 Hyper Potion by this point, though, Machamp is only 4HKOed and its Rock Slides or Cross Chops (if it was Foresighted before) do around 40%, Gengar needs 2 Hyper Potions for this 1v1, performance A/B-tier
Karen: level 39, Umbreon needs 7 Ice Punches to faint, which is too many considering Faint Attack is doing too much, but maybe you get a lucky freeze if it wastes turns with Sand-Attack or Confuse Rayfirst, Murkrow is outsped and cleanly OHKOed by Ice Punch, Houndoom is only 5HKOed by Thunder Punch while its Crunch OHKOs Gengar from full, Karen's Gengar is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Vileplume is walled and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, performance B-tier
Lance: level 39, Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados when it sets up rain, Gengar likely only 2HKOs the level 47 Dragonites with Ice Punch (but it is a chance for an OHKO with Never-Melt Ice) and Thunder Wave is annoying and the status will need to be healed later 1 Full Restore, Aerodactyl is faster and KOs with Rock Slide after just a bit of damage, Gengar outspeeds, can take 1 Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite at full health and 2HKO with Ice Punch, Charizard gets outsped and 2HKOed by Thunder Punch but its Flamethrower does a ton to Gengar, if Gengar is around level 45 it can get the OHKOs on Gyarados and the two level 47 Dragonites, performance B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 2: level 16, level 16 for Curse is super important, Ghastly walls Metapod, Kakuna and Scyther, Curse takes all three out, 2 Potion needed, without Curse it would run out of Licks on Scyther, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 16, Lick 3HKOs Gastly, 7HKOs Zubat with Hypnosis, Curse + Licks kill Bayleef, 3 Potion needed, performance B-tier
Gym 3: level 19, Hypnosis + Curse can take out both Clefable and Miltank, Rollout is doing a lot of damage, though, and Miltank is faster. Sketchy and needs multiple Potions, performance C-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter does big damage with Lick and Curse, Zubat takes too many Licks to kill and has Bite, Magnemite walls Gastly, Bayleef is the best matchup and still requires Curse to defeat, performance D/E-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Lick 2HKOs Gastly but it can still get a Curse off, Haunter can take out the first of Morty's Haunters if it misses Hypnosis, but Gengar's Shadow Ball ends its run at the latest, performance D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape can't touch Haunter and is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, Poliwrath is slower and can be put to sleep with Hypnosis (Chuck has 1 Full Heal, though), Shadow Ball and Night Shade are 4HKOs, Poliwrath's Surf is a 2HKO on Haunter, though. If Haunter has already evolve into Gengar, then it easily sweeps with Thunderpunch and better bulk, performance B/S (if Gengar) -tier
Gym 6: level 31, Haunter has to hit all its Hypnosises as it hates Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball only 4HKOs the two Magnemites and does barely anything to Steelix who also heavily threatens it with an OHKO from Iron Tail, Gengar with Fire Punch is much better as it OHKOs the Magnemites and Steelix should be 2 or 3HKOed, so Hypnosis is still needed, Iron Tail is not an OHKO this time, though, performance F/B (if Gengar)-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is 2HKOed by Haunter's Shadow Ball and still slower even after an Icy Wind, Haunter is also still faster than even Dewgong, so it can put it to sleep with Hypnosis, Aurora Beam doesn't do too much, Shadow Ball 3HKOs Dewgong, Piloswine can be put to sleep and Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, however its Blizzard is doing a ton of damage, if Haunter already evolved into Gengar, then the combination of Thunderpunch and Fire Punch sweeps rather easily, peformance C/B (if Gengar) -tier
Rival 4: level 32, Haunter is faster and can put it to sleep with Hypnosis, Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, Golbat can be threatening with Bite, Wing Attack and Confuse Ray, though, same story with Sneasel, Haunter outspeeds and Night Shade is a 3HKO, Faint Attack does a lot, Magnemite only 4HKOs with Thunder Shock, but Thunder Wave is annoying, Night Shade is a 2HKO, the enemy Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Meganium can't touch Haunter and is 3HKOed by Night Shade, Gengar sweeps easily with the elemental punches, performance B/S (if Gengar)-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Gengar 2HKOs all Dragonairs with Ice Punch, Thunder Wave is annoying and their special attacks do decent damage, 2 Hyper Potions and a Full Heal were needed, Kingdra's Surf is a 2HKO while Gengar's attacks only 4HKO, Hypnosis can help, performance B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Gegnar outspees Sneasel and Fire Punch OHKOs with Charcoal, Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, Bite or Wing Attack don't do too much, Magneton is OHKOed by Fire Punch, Haunter and Kababra are both outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Meganium is 2HKOed by Ice Punch and it can't touch Gengar, performance S-tier
Will: level 39, Xatu is barely not knocked out by Shadow Ball or Ice Punch, even with Never-Melt Ice, and the returning Psychic cleanly OHKOs Gengar, so Gengar can not stay in unless it wants to gamble with Hypnosis, Jynx is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball however, boosted Ice Punch is also barely not an OHKO on Exeggutor either, so another matchup it can't stay in on, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Thunder Punch but its Psychic is yet again strong enough to OHKO Gengar, the second Xatu has the first problems as the first one, even with some in-battle level ups to 40, it is barely not OHKOed and kills Gengar with Psychic, if Gengar is at like level 45 then it can probably get the important OHKOs on the two Xatus and Exeggutor, either way Gengar can not afford to take a single hit this battle, performance depens heavily on its level,
either S/A-tier if overleveled, otherwise D-tier
Koga: level 39, Ariados is 2HKOed by Fire Punch and can't do anything besides Baton Passing a Double Team, Venomoth is also 2HKO but its Psychic does 70%, Forretress is OHKOedy by Fire Punch, Muk is completely walled by Gengar but its good bullk means that it is only 4 or 5HKOed, Crobat is 2HKOed by Ice or Thunder Punch and Wing Attack is only doing 25%, performance S-tier
Bruno: level 39, Hitmontop is 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but Dig is also nearly a 2HKO on Gengar, Ice Punch cleanly OHKOs Onix, Gengar 2HKOs Hitmonlee with Shadow Ball who has to waste a turn with Foresight in order to hit Gengar, Hitmonchan can only hit Gengar with really weak elemental punches and is 3HKOed by Shadow Ball, Gengar will need 1 Hyper Potion by this point, though, Machamp is only 4HKOed and its Rock Slides or Cross Chops (if it was Foresighted before) do around 40%, Gengar needs 2 Hyper Potions for this 1v1, performance A/B-tier
Karen: level 39, Umbreon needs 7 Ice Punches to faint, which is too many considering Faint Attack is doing too much, but maybe you get a lucky freeze if it wastes turns with Sand-Attack or Confuse Rayfirst, Murkrow is outsped and cleanly OHKOed by Ice Punch, Houndoom is only 5HKOed by Thunder Punch while its Crunch OHKOs Gengar from full, Karen's Gengar is outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Vileplume is walled and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, performance B-tier
Lance: level 39, Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados when it sets up rain, Gengar likely only 2HKOs the level 47 Dragonites with Ice Punch (but it is a chance for an OHKO with Never-Melt Ice) and Thunder Wave is annoying and the status will need to be healed later 1 Full Restore, Aerodactyl is faster and KOs with Rock Slide after just a bit of damage, Gengar outspeeds, can take 1 Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite at full health and 2HKO with Ice Punch, Charizard gets outsped and 2HKOed by Thunder Punch but its Flamethrower does a ton to Gengar, if Gengar is around level 45 it can get the OHKOs on Gyarados and the two level 47 Dragonites, performance B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 3: level 19, Clefable can be rather easily taken out with Confusion. Hypnosis, Leech Seed and Reflect help a lot. Miltank needs many attacks to knock out Exeggcute, Hypnosis breaks Rollout streaks, Leech Seed and Hypnosis are again very good, performance B-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter gets OHKOed by Confusion but will use Curse before forcing Exeggcute to switch out and back in again, Bayleef can be chiped down with Hypnosis and Confusion, Magnemite is only threatening with Sonic Boom and chipped down with Confusion and Leech Seed , Zubat only 3 or 4HKOs with Bite or Leech Life and gets 2HKOed by Confusion, 1 Super Potion might be required, performance B/C-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Confusion OHKOs Gastly but it is faster than Exeggcute and can still get a Curse off, Haunter gets OHKOed, but Gengar ends its run with Shadow Ball, performance D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and it can barely do any damage to Exeggcute, Confusion 3HKOs Poliwrath while it can't really do much in return besides Hypnosis and Confusion hax, performance A-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Exeggutor outspeeds and 3HKOs the two Magnemites with Confusion and is also able to put them to sleep, they can't do much aside from being annoying with Supersonic and Thunder Wave, Exeggutor is 3HKOed by Steelix's Iron Tail, but Leech Seed and Hypnosis help chip it down, performance C-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Exeggutor outspeeds Seel and can put it to sleep with Hypnosism Rollout then 3HKOs it, Dewgong and Piloswine are outsped and OHKOed by turn 4 and 5 Rollout, a Hypnosis or Rollout miss or early wakeup from Seel can mess things up, but Exeggutor can take 2 Aurora Beams, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and is doing about half before going down to 2 Confusions, Sneasel's Faint Attack is rather weak but a Hyper Potion might still be needed, Sludge Bomb can 2HKO if you get it poisoned, Meganium is only 4HKOed by Sludge Bomb if it sets up a Reflect and can status Exeggutor with Poison Powder or Body Slam, another Hyper Potion was needed, Magnemite can't do much and is 3HKOed by Confusion, Haunter's Shadow Ball isn't doing much and Exeggutor KOs it with Confusion, performance C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Exeggutor takes on the Surf and Thunderbolt Dragonairs decently, Confusion or Sludge Bomb 3HKO them but Dragon Breath does decent damage and can cause you to lose turns, Ice Beam almost 2HKOs, so Exeggutor can only take this Dragonair on with multiple Hyper Potions or Hypnosis, Kingdra can be chipped down with Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb, another Hyper Potion is likely needed, performance C-tier
Rival 5: Sneasel is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb and Faint Attack and Fury Cutter both do little damage, Meganium is 2HKOed (or 4HKOed through Reflect) by Sludge Bomb while its Body Slams don't do much in return, Golbat is 2HKOed by Confusion, it can only do little damage with Wing Attack, Exeggutor is faster and can put Magneton to sleep with Hypnosis, Confusion is a 4HKO, Magneton can't do any real damage aside from using status moves, Haunter's Shadow Ball is only doing 30% and then Confusion OHKOs in return, Sluge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra who is walled by Exeggutor, performance S/A-tier
Will: level 37, Xatu's Psychic is only doing 20%, Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb can take it out in 3 turns, Jynx's Ice Punch has a chance to OHKO, the second Xatu works the same as the first one, Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb can take it out without much risk, Will's Exeggutor is slower and can be put to sleep, 3 Sludge Bombs take it out, the same Hypnosis and Leech Seed chip strategy also works on Slowbro, but it is much bulkier so it takes more turns, it can't do too much in return, though, as its Psychics are weaker, performance B-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados is outsped, walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, Venomoth is also 2HKOed and its Gust is doing very little, Forretress can be put to sleep and chipped down with Leech Seed over a few turns while it can't do anything back besides waking up and booming, Muk is slower and can be put to sleep, Confusion is a 3HKO, Sludge Bomb is doing a lot, though, Crobat is 2HKOed by Confusion, Exeggutor can take Wing Attacks resonably well, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop is walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, Hitmonchan is also 2HKOed but its elemental punches actually do decent damage, Machamp is 3HKOed and its attacks also do pack a punch, Hitmonlee and Onix are both effortlessly 2HKOed, Exeggutor needs to take a lot of hits this battle, so 2 Hyper Potions were needed, performance A-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon outspeeds Exeggutor and Faint Attack is doing a lot, but it most likely won't go for that right away, so it is possible to put it to sleep with Hypnosis and then chip it down with Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb, Murkrow is also faster and cleanly 2HKOs with Faint Attack while Sludge Bomb only 3HKOs, even if you hit a Hypnosis, the chances are not great, Vileplume is outsped and 2HKOed by Confusion wile it can't do much in return, Houndoom easily outspeeds and OHKOs Exeggutor, Gengar's Lick is doing almost nothing and Confusion is a 2HKO, performance C/D-tier
Lance: level 38, Exeggutor can get off a Leech Seed as Gyarados sets up rain and then put it too sleep, only Hyper Beam does any meaningful damage but it won't go for that right away, Blizzard from Dragonite is an OHKO from full, Hyper Beam from the Thunder Dragonite is doing over half but Exeggutor can then get a Leech Seed and Hypnosis off and chip it down with Confusion, Aerodactyl's Wing Attack 2HKOs, you have to hope you land a Hypnosis and that it won't wake up while you chip it down with Confusion, Flamethrower and Fire Blast from Charizard and the level 50 Dragonite are OHKOs from full, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Rival 3: level 20, Haunter gets OHKOed by Confusion but will use Curse before forcing Exeggcute to switch out and back in again, Bayleef can be chiped down with Hypnosis and Confusion, Magnemite is only threatening with Sonic Boom and chipped down with Confusion and Leech Seed , Zubat only 3 or 4HKOs with Bite or Leech Life and gets 2HKOed by Confusion, 1 Super Potion might be required, performance B/C-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Confusion OHKOs Gastly but it is faster than Exeggcute and can still get a Curse off, Haunter gets OHKOed, but Gengar ends its run with Shadow Ball, performance D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and it can barely do any damage to Exeggcute, Confusion 3HKOs Poliwrath while it can't really do much in return besides Hypnosis and Confusion hax, performance A-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Exeggutor outspeeds and 3HKOs the two Magnemites with Confusion and is also able to put them to sleep, they can't do much aside from being annoying with Supersonic and Thunder Wave, Exeggutor is 3HKOed by Steelix's Iron Tail, but Leech Seed and Hypnosis help chip it down, performance C-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Exeggutor outspeeds Seel and can put it to sleep with Hypnosism Rollout then 3HKOs it, Dewgong and Piloswine are outsped and OHKOed by turn 4 and 5 Rollout, a Hypnosis or Rollout miss or early wakeup from Seel can mess things up, but Exeggutor can take 2 Aurora Beams, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and is doing about half before going down to 2 Confusions, Sneasel's Faint Attack is rather weak but a Hyper Potion might still be needed, Sludge Bomb can 2HKO if you get it poisoned, Meganium is only 4HKOed by Sludge Bomb if it sets up a Reflect and can status Exeggutor with Poison Powder or Body Slam, another Hyper Potion was needed, Magnemite can't do much and is 3HKOed by Confusion, Haunter's Shadow Ball isn't doing much and Exeggutor KOs it with Confusion, performance C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Exeggutor takes on the Surf and Thunderbolt Dragonairs decently, Confusion or Sludge Bomb 3HKO them but Dragon Breath does decent damage and can cause you to lose turns, Ice Beam almost 2HKOs, so Exeggutor can only take this Dragonair on with multiple Hyper Potions or Hypnosis, Kingdra can be chipped down with Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb, another Hyper Potion is likely needed, performance C-tier
Rival 5: Sneasel is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb and Faint Attack and Fury Cutter both do little damage, Meganium is 2HKOed (or 4HKOed through Reflect) by Sludge Bomb while its Body Slams don't do much in return, Golbat is 2HKOed by Confusion, it can only do little damage with Wing Attack, Exeggutor is faster and can put Magneton to sleep with Hypnosis, Confusion is a 4HKO, Magneton can't do any real damage aside from using status moves, Haunter's Shadow Ball is only doing 30% and then Confusion OHKOs in return, Sluge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra who is walled by Exeggutor, performance S/A-tier
Will: level 37, Xatu's Psychic is only doing 20%, Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb can take it out in 3 turns, Jynx's Ice Punch has a chance to OHKO, the second Xatu works the same as the first one, Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb can take it out without much risk, Will's Exeggutor is slower and can be put to sleep, 3 Sludge Bombs take it out, the same Hypnosis and Leech Seed chip strategy also works on Slowbro, but it is much bulkier so it takes more turns, it can't do too much in return, though, as its Psychics are weaker, performance B-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados is outsped, walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, Venomoth is also 2HKOed and its Gust is doing very little, Forretress can be put to sleep and chipped down with Leech Seed over a few turns while it can't do anything back besides waking up and booming, Muk is slower and can be put to sleep, Confusion is a 3HKO, Sludge Bomb is doing a lot, though, Crobat is 2HKOed by Confusion, Exeggutor can take Wing Attacks resonably well, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop is walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, Hitmonchan is also 2HKOed but its elemental punches actually do decent damage, Machamp is 3HKOed and its attacks also do pack a punch, Hitmonlee and Onix are both effortlessly 2HKOed, Exeggutor needs to take a lot of hits this battle, so 2 Hyper Potions were needed, performance A-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon outspeeds Exeggutor and Faint Attack is doing a lot, but it most likely won't go for that right away, so it is possible to put it to sleep with Hypnosis and then chip it down with Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb, Murkrow is also faster and cleanly 2HKOs with Faint Attack while Sludge Bomb only 3HKOs, even if you hit a Hypnosis, the chances are not great, Vileplume is outsped and 2HKOed by Confusion wile it can't do much in return, Houndoom easily outspeeds and OHKOs Exeggutor, Gengar's Lick is doing almost nothing and Confusion is a 2HKO, performance C/D-tier
Lance: level 38, Exeggutor can get off a Leech Seed as Gyarados sets up rain and then put it too sleep, only Hyper Beam does any meaningful damage but it won't go for that right away, Blizzard from Dragonite is an OHKO from full, Hyper Beam from the Thunder Dragonite is doing over half but Exeggutor can then get a Leech Seed and Hypnosis off and chip it down with Confusion, Aerodactyl's Wing Attack 2HKOs, you have to hope you land a Hypnosis and that it won't wake up while you chip it down with Confusion, Flamethrower and Fire Blast from Charizard and the level 50 Dragonite are OHKOs from full, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Catching it without the Master Ball is annoying, took me 20 minutes
Gym 8: level 41, Aurora Beam 2HKOs all three Dragonairs, the Surf and Ice Beam ones are completely walled by Suicune, the Thunderbolt one does around 30%, Suicune will eventually win against Kingdra, 3-5 Hyper Potions will be needed for the entire battle, depending on hax,
performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 41, Sneasel is completely walled by Suicune and also 2HKOed by Surf, Magneton is outsped and 2HKOed as well but it will get a Thunder Wave off, Thunder Shock is only doing 25%, Aurora Beam has a chance to 2HKO Meganium with the Never-Melt Ice, Razor Leaf is not doing much in return, Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed and can't really do anything, Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Kadabra has a chance to be OHKOed as well but it will always use Future Sight first and Suicune is faster, performance S-tier
Will: level 41, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam kills Xatu and its Psychic only does about 30%, Never-Melt Ice boosted Aurora Beam is just strong enough to 2HKO Exeggutor which is good because its Psychics seriously hurt, Jynx does also about 30% with Psychic, Suicune needs Icy Wind and two Surfs to knock it out, Slowbro's Psychics are exactly as strong as Jynx's but Suicune's Surf do absolutely nothing, multiple Hyper Potions are needed in this 1v1 and if Slowbro uses Amnesia once, then Suicune can't do anything and has to switch out, performance B-tier
Koga: level 41, Ariados is easily 2HKOed by Surf, Venomoth is not doing much with Psychic and Icy Wind into 2 Surfs is enough to KO it, Forretress is 2HKOed by Surf and is only setting up Spikes on the one turn it gets, Muk is doing around 30% with Sludge Bomb and can take up to 4 Surfs until it faints, 1 Full Restore is probably needed by this point, Crobat is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Aurora Beam while Crobat's one Wing Attack is only doing 15%, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 41, Hitmontop is completely non-threatening and 3HKOed by Surf, Hitmonchamp is also 3HKOed and its Thunder Punch is only doing 20%, Hitmonlee is slightly stronger but it also falls to 3 Surfs, Machamp is only 3HKOed as well but its Cross Chop has a chance to 2HKO Suicune (or OHKO if it crits), Onix is cleanly OHKOed, performance B-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon's Faint Attack does very little and Surf 4HKOs, it can be annoying with multiple Sand-Attacks, though, Vileplume has a chance to 2HKO Suicune with Petal Dance while Aurora Beam is only a 3HKO, so 1 Full Restore is needed, Gengar's Lick is doing nothing and Icy Wind into 2 Surfs knocks it out, Curse and Destiny Bond can be annoying, Murkrow is not doing too much with its attacks and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind, Houndoom is faster and its Crunch does about 35%, Surf 2HKOs it, performance B-tier
Lance: level 41, Suicune can take two Hyper Beams from Gyarados and Icy Wind into 5 Aurora Beams will knock it out, Gyarados also won't set up rain against Suicune making the later Thunders from Dragonite less accurate, 1 Hyper Potion should be used before knocking out Gyarados to be health for the Thunder Dragonite, the Dragonite outspeeds and Thunder is doing 75%, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam knock it out, if you get paralysed you have to use 1 Full Restore, another Hyper Potion is needed to take a Hyper Beam from the Blizzard Dragonite which does about 45%, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam also kills it, the level 50 Dragonite sets up Safegurad while Suicune kills it without taking damage with Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Charizard's Hyper Beam does about 40%, so another Hyper Potion might be needed, 2 Surfs kill it, Aerodactyl's Hyper Beam does about 35%, Icy Wind into Surf KOs it, performance A/B-tier
Overall battle performance: A/B-tier
Gym 8: level 41, Aurora Beam 2HKOs all three Dragonairs, the Surf and Ice Beam ones are completely walled by Suicune, the Thunderbolt one does around 30%, Suicune will eventually win against Kingdra, 3-5 Hyper Potions will be needed for the entire battle, depending on hax,
performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 41, Sneasel is completely walled by Suicune and also 2HKOed by Surf, Magneton is outsped and 2HKOed as well but it will get a Thunder Wave off, Thunder Shock is only doing 25%, Aurora Beam has a chance to 2HKO Meganium with the Never-Melt Ice, Razor Leaf is not doing much in return, Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed and can't really do anything, Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Kadabra has a chance to be OHKOed as well but it will always use Future Sight first and Suicune is faster, performance S-tier
Will: level 41, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam kills Xatu and its Psychic only does about 30%, Never-Melt Ice boosted Aurora Beam is just strong enough to 2HKO Exeggutor which is good because its Psychics seriously hurt, Jynx does also about 30% with Psychic, Suicune needs Icy Wind and two Surfs to knock it out, Slowbro's Psychics are exactly as strong as Jynx's but Suicune's Surf do absolutely nothing, multiple Hyper Potions are needed in this 1v1 and if Slowbro uses Amnesia once, then Suicune can't do anything and has to switch out, performance B-tier
Koga: level 41, Ariados is easily 2HKOed by Surf, Venomoth is not doing much with Psychic and Icy Wind into 2 Surfs is enough to KO it, Forretress is 2HKOed by Surf and is only setting up Spikes on the one turn it gets, Muk is doing around 30% with Sludge Bomb and can take up to 4 Surfs until it faints, 1 Full Restore is probably needed by this point, Crobat is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Aurora Beam while Crobat's one Wing Attack is only doing 15%, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 41, Hitmontop is completely non-threatening and 3HKOed by Surf, Hitmonchamp is also 3HKOed and its Thunder Punch is only doing 20%, Hitmonlee is slightly stronger but it also falls to 3 Surfs, Machamp is only 3HKOed as well but its Cross Chop has a chance to 2HKO Suicune (or OHKO if it crits), Onix is cleanly OHKOed, performance B-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon's Faint Attack does very little and Surf 4HKOs, it can be annoying with multiple Sand-Attacks, though, Vileplume has a chance to 2HKO Suicune with Petal Dance while Aurora Beam is only a 3HKO, so 1 Full Restore is needed, Gengar's Lick is doing nothing and Icy Wind into 2 Surfs knocks it out, Curse and Destiny Bond can be annoying, Murkrow is not doing too much with its attacks and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind, Houndoom is faster and its Crunch does about 35%, Surf 2HKOs it, performance B-tier
Lance: level 41, Suicune can take two Hyper Beams from Gyarados and Icy Wind into 5 Aurora Beams will knock it out, Gyarados also won't set up rain against Suicune making the later Thunders from Dragonite less accurate, 1 Hyper Potion should be used before knocking out Gyarados to be health for the Thunder Dragonite, the Dragonite outspeeds and Thunder is doing 75%, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam knock it out, if you get paralysed you have to use 1 Full Restore, another Hyper Potion is needed to take a Hyper Beam from the Blizzard Dragonite which does about 45%, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam also kills it, the level 50 Dragonite sets up Safegurad while Suicune kills it without taking damage with Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Charizard's Hyper Beam does about 40%, so another Hyper Potion might be needed, 2 Surfs kill it, Aerodactyl's Hyper Beam does about 35%, Icy Wind into Surf KOs it, performance A/B-tier
Overall battle performance: A/B-tier
Despite the fact that the RNG had it out for me when I tried to get the 1% encounter for Dunsparce, its performance in the major battles was actually not that bad. It comes pretty early and has few truely bad matchups. The low encounter chance does knock it down a tier, though. It also wants the Headbutt, Dig and maybe even Return TM, so it has some oppertunity cost. Dunsparce had two nominations for D-tier already and one for C-tier. I could see C-tier but to me D-tier for Dunsparce seems more fitting.
Gastly (Trade) already has 2 nominations for A-tier but that seems too high in my book. Until you get Gengar, Gastly and Haunter do have some serious problems. Hypnosis and Curse need to do some heavy lifting because for most of the game Gastly has no good attacking options. Until after gym 4, it only has Lick and Night Shade, and until Haunter evoles into Gengar, it only has Shadow Ball off of its bad attack stats. Gastly and Haunter don't learn the elemental punches, so their only special attack until Gengar is the weak Thief TM. And Haunter is really needing those elemental punches as soon as possible. I played with a rom where Haunter evolves into Gengar at level 37 and the battles of Gym 5,6 and 7 as well as Rival 4 are significantly worse without the elemental punches. Gengar's lower bulk and Poison typing are also sometimes a problem. Overall I don't see it in A-tier with all these problems. Befoer Gengar, Gastly and Haunter don't have too many good matchups. I think B-tier for Gastly (Trade) is more accurate.
Exeggcute is so sad in gen 2. Not only is it a stone evolution, which are time consuming to get until you get Fly, it also lacks its best moves until post game. No Psychic and not a single Grass Stab move. Hypnosis and Leech Seed are good support moves but if we assume Exeggutor is post gym 5, only having Confusion and Rollout is pretty pathetic. Later it gets Sludge Bomb but that is about it as far as its movepool is concerned. Still Exeggutor has pretty good stats, so its attacks aren't too weak and Hypnosis and Leech Seed coupled with its good bulk allow it to take down some difficult Pokemon. It had two nominations for D-tier and one for C-tier. While it is a pretty lukewarm nomination, in my opinion Exeggcute (Crystal) should go in C-tier. A Pokemon with such good stats that comes so early doesn't belong in D-tier.
Suicune is pretty annoying to catch since you don't have the Master Ball until after gym 8. Still, at least it is a static encounter in Crystal instead of a roaming Pokemon like in Gold and Silver. It becomes available pretty late in Tin Tower after the Team Rocket takeover, so it can't help with much anymore. Its movepool is also pretty barren with only Water and Ice moves. Still, it has pretty good stats, since it is a legendary Pokemon, so it does fair decently well in the remaining battles. Nothing to get exitent about, though. It has 1 nomination for B and D tier, as well as 2 nominations for C-tier.
And to me, C-tier for Suicune feels fair.
Slowpoke (Slobro) (Has 1 Nomination for D, C/D, and C each)
Eevee (Flareon) (Crystal) (Has 1 Nomination for D/C Tier and 1 for C tier)
Lugia (Has 1 Nomination is A, B, and C each)
Mantine (Currently has 2 C Tier Nominations)
Shellder (Crystal) (Currently has 1 Nomination for D/C and 2 for C)
Spinarak (Has 2 Nominations in D Tier)
Goldeen (Has 2 nomination for D Tier)
Remoraid (Has 1 Nomination for E tier 2 for D tier)
Eevee (Flareon) (Crystal) (Has 1 Nomination for D/C Tier and 1 for C tier)
Lugia (Has 1 Nomination is A, B, and C each)
Mantine (Currently has 2 C Tier Nominations)
Shellder (Crystal) (Currently has 1 Nomination for D/C and 2 for C)
Spinarak (Has 2 Nominations in D Tier)
Goldeen (Has 2 nomination for D Tier)
Remoraid (Has 1 Nomination for E tier 2 for D tier)
I agree with most of these barring Gengar. The tier list assumes that you will be evolving Haunter at your earliest convenience which is 25. You kept it til Haunter at 37 where it has been noted already that Haunter is a pretty bad Pokemon if you don't evolve it. Because you didn't evolve at 25 and pick up some E-Punches, it was no wonder it failed to perform. So unfortunately, I cannot take this test as Gastly (Trade) but more so as Gastly (No Trade) since in all this was more a Haunter test than a Gengar one who you had for roughly 5-6 fights out of the majority of the game.
I noted in my Gastly log how it would fare for gyms 5, 6, 7 and Rival 4 if you evolve Haunter immediately and give Gengar the elemental punches as early as Chuck. Gengar does much better in those four battles then but even with the earliest possible Gengar, it only gets about half a tier better for me (see matrix I attached). It is definitly closer to A tier then but Gengar has very few matchup were it is truely great. Some of the later battles like Rival 5, Koga and Bruno are very good for it. But then it also has some pretty average or bad matchups before the Gengar stage like gym 1, 3, 4 and Rival 3.
Gastly was good for me but I wouldn't call it A-tier great overall. For such good stats, the Gastly line was often just decent. More than once one or two Pokemon just stopped it pretty hard. The Elite Four matchups are also not that good if it isn't a few level overleveled which is kind of hard in Crystal.
Dismissing the Gastly (Trade) nomination feels weird to me. I basically logged a Gastly run with earliest possible Gengar. I justed noted in addition how bad it is for Haunter if you don't evolve it very quick.
I think the differences in performance are caused by the fact that Gengar is a bit underleveled in the endgame, which is what would bump its tier up otherwise. I assume the lower levels are caused by the fact a lot of early-game Pokemon were used (as well as the overall large team). I remember Gengar needing to be level 43 to consistently OHKO Lance's stuff (which isn't that unreasonable to reach, particularly if you use Gengar as your main Pokemon in the E4, but that's just my opinion)
regarding the Clair performance, I think Never-melt Ice can help with securing KOs, as well as being level 38 (this is apparently what I have in my logs. Considering that I likely tested the fight more than once, I assume I concluded that the OHKOs were reliable enough).
As to whether this is reasonable to assume for Gengar's performance, I will let others decide, but I believe Zebes reproduced a similar performance as me (too lazy to search for his logs, so feel free to correct me), so it's not all that impossible, to say the least. Based on my own logs, Gengar would theoritically be S-tier if it wasn't for the early-game performance
Logs for reference
regarding the Clair performance, I think Never-melt Ice can help with securing KOs, as well as being level 38 (this is apparently what I have in my logs. Considering that I likely tested the fight more than once, I assume I concluded that the OHKOs were reliable enough).
As to whether this is reasonable to assume for Gengar's performance, I will let others decide, but I believe Zebes reproduced a similar performance as me (too lazy to search for his logs, so feel free to correct me), so it's not all that impossible, to say the least. Based on my own logs, Gengar would theoritically be S-tier if it wasn't for the early-game performance
Logs for reference
I also got the impression that Gengar needs to be your highest level mon pretty much at all times once you get it. To get the best out of it you need to have it fully ready as soon as Morty or Chuck and some damage ranges of some later fights are rather close because Gengar really needs to land some KOs since it can't afford to get counter attacked by some specific Pokemon. Also the fact that Gastly's early game is kind of meh and that Gengar is hugely TM dependent (but granted the elemental punches can be rebought) makes it have too many downsides for me to think of it as an A-tier Pokemon. I would place it on the top of B but A-tier is pushing it for me. But I could see it maybe.
Also another two topics that currently occupate my mind.
- I will use Eevee and Shellder next run. What is the consensuses on stones? As in when are we allowed to get one? Backtracking for the DST trick is likely out of the question and the chance to get a phone call from one of the NPCs that give you a stone is not high. So do we just assume that stones are off limits until we get the Fly HM to get access to the DST trick without major backtracking? I did that for Exeggcute but I actually got lucky enough to get a Leaf Stone call just after Morty. I chose not to use it until after Chuck, though, since I thought me getty lucky shouldn't warp the playtesting.
- Goldeen is also on the next team. But I am unsure on when to get it. The earliest point is in Union Cave after you get the Old Rod on Route 32. But then you only get a level 10 Goldeen, which is well... a Goldeen that has to wait until level 33 for the Seaking evolution. On the other hand Seaking can be encountered underleveled at levels 20-24 on Route 42 with Surf just after the 4th gym which would make it much better immediately since you can catch it with a Friend Ball for nearly full power Return and you can also give it Surf right away plus have Seaking stats 10 levels earlier. But then Goldeen misses Gym 2 and 3 as well as Rival 3. But my guess is that Goldeen is not good in those fights anyway because it is a Goldeen. So my question is if I should go for the later but better Seaking or rather for the earliest Goldeen?
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TM "dependency", the way I understand it, would be an issue mostly with finite TMs that are particularly contested. The only finite TM Gengar needs is Shadow Ball, but save for Normal-types, Shadow Ball isn't particularly contested as far as I remember
"off-limits" would suggest that backtracking before Fly is banned, which it is not. However, it is taken into consideration (albeit negatively). I would say that, for almost all cases, you are better off backtracking and performing the DST trick, since the punishment from that is likely to be less than if you degraded the performance against Morty and Chuck (and trust me, Shellder is absolutely garbage, you certainly don't want to spend a single second using that thing unevolved)
I believe that getting Seaking directly is better, because early Goldeen has almost no redeemable qualities on its own (Bugsy is a questionable matchup because Goldeen will be hitting like a wet sock, as far as I am concerned (didn't run calcs so might be wrong), and it doesn't resist Fury Cutter) and level 33 as evolution level means that many players aren't going to have Seaking by Gyms 5-7
I'd like to add that backtracking in Johto before Fly is mostly a non-issue unless you're going to Azalea. (And even then, just buy a Max Repel and you'll be fine.)
Johto is not only small, but it also has many built-in shortcuts for backtracking. Beating Sudowoodo immediately makes going back to the Ruins of Alph trivial. New Bark is a bit more annoying, but you don't even need to touch
As for the current discussion regarding whether or not Gengar should be A-Tier...
Dragging a Gastly licking and screaming from Lv. 6 AT BEST to Lv. 25 in Johto is insane. That mon simply does not exist until Morty. It only gets Night Shade at Lv. 21, so your main damage option for route clearing is a 30BP move, factoring STAB, which doesn't work on Normal-types AT ALL, off 35 Base Attack.
In simple terms, a Pokémon that can't do basic route clearing until mid-game is unfit to be placed in A-Tier.
Gengar can throw punches well and all that, but we're talking about a mon that joins before Gym 1 and can't even pull its weight in routes until the 4th Gym.
I would assume it depends on the specific Pokemon if the backtrack is worth it. The Leaf Stone for Exeggcute doesn't matter too much for Morty and Chuck, it mostly performs the same. But Flareon and Cloyster seem different.
The Fire Stone is from a school boy on Route 36 and you have to reach Ecruteak City to meet Bill and backtrack to Goldenrod anyway to even get Eevee. By that point Sudowoodo was already cleared and you have a shortcut back to Violet City, so the backtracking isn't that insane because you have the bike. And if we are not evolving Eevee as soon as possible, then what are we even doing?
EDIT: Nevermind. You are given a level 20 Eevee from Bill, which means Ember is unobtainable on Flareon without breeding. So I guess its only Fire STAB move until Fire Blast is the horrible Fire Spin. Might be better to leave Eevee unevolved for Morty then.
The Water Stone is more annoying because you have to pass through Mt. Mortar to reach the fisherman that hands out the stone, then backtrack to your house and switch DST until you get the call, go back to the fisherman for the stone, then go to Olivine City to get the Good Rod and fish up Shellder, evolve it, and then get back to Ecruteak City to have Cloyster participate in as many gym battles as possible. That is quite a lot of traveling just for two more battles it can contribute in as Cloyster. And I am not entirely sure it performs much better as Cloyster in those fights. My guess is both fights aren't that great for it because being slow is bad against Morty and the additional Fighting weakness against Chuck probably negates the better stats somewhat. But who knows I haven't used it yet. I am just theorycrafting here. I could get surprised.
I will backtrack for both stones but that should knock both of them down a tier unless the evolution makes those two gym fights much much better, which I doubt.
Good to know that backtracking for stones is allowed, though. Thanks for letting me know.
That was also what I intended to do. My Emerald run with Goldeen was a pain until Seaking and I can't imagine Goldeen would fair much better in Crystal, even with weaker enemies and stat exp. But it certainly is a matter of philosophy if its better to be early and bad or better later but missing fights. But since Goldeen is so bad that it is a Water type that is walled by Ghost types until Surf (lmao), I don't think the possible earlier availability matters much if it can't actually meaningfully contribute there.
While that is somewhat fair, having to backtrack to literally the beginning of the game just to be able to have stones for two additional gym battles before you get Fly is still a little silly. Not a deal breaker but that most certainly should be marked as a heavy downside. My rough guess for the needed additional time is roughly 15-30 minutes depending on the stone. So it isn't nothing.
Also you will have to do with normal Repels. Super Repels become only available in Olivine City and Max Repels are even locked until Blackthorn City. Johto is weird...
That is also my take. Ghastly isn't completely useless early like Magikarp. Its typing is useful defensively early and fast Hypnosis is nice. But yeah, its lack of a good offensive attack for half the game is a big red flag. It needs so much support, that I can't think of it as a A-tier Pokemon. But if you do invest in it as much as possible, then it is pretty good. But I feel like it is overrated.
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Finished another Crystal run today with Chikorita, Pidgey, Spinarak, Eevee (Flareon), Shellder and Mantine.
Here are my rough logs of all four:
Spinarak is just what you expect it to be. It is bad, shocker! It has no real moves early game and you have to give it the Dig TM and then clear Team Rocket in Mahogany Town as soon as possible for the Sludge Bomb TM, so it can actually deal damage. Its stats are also really bad, especially its low speed that gives it some truely horrible matchups sometimes. Otherwise STAB Sludge Bomb from 90 base attack isn't the worst I guess, and Dig lets it defeat some otherwise impossible matchups. It is also available for the entire game and the oppertunity cost is fairly minimal.
Spinarak has 2 nominations for D-tier and I agree with that. Pretty bad Pokemon but it is not entirely useless, D-tier for Spinarak is fine.
Flareon is pretty unfortunate. You have to invest so heavily to get the most out of it, and what you get is rather mediocre for a Pokemon with good stats. Like with all Eevee evolutions, you have to backtrack from Ecruteak City to Goldenrod City to even get the gift Eevee. And sadly you get a level 20 Eevee, which means it misses the level 16 Ember. So no STAB Fire moves until level 36 Fire Spin or the Fire Blast TM. Eevee is pretty bad, so you want the Fire Stone as soon as possible. Which means backtracking to your home on bike after you got the NPC phone number, and then doing the DST trick until you get the response that gives you a stone. Flareon needs the Headbutt and Mud-Slap TMs to get a good start against Rival 3 and Morty. Then it wants the Shadow Ball TM as a stronger way to hit Ghosts. If you are coniderate about your money and also sell a bunch of stuff, you can afford the expensive Fire Blast TM before the Steel Gym. The late game is rather poor for Flareon. Its low speed and physical bulk is a problem, and it has no utility moves. Return is going to take forever to outdamage Shadow Ball if you go for that.
Flareon has 1 nomination for C-tier and 1 for C/D-tier. With the backtracking, the required stone, the high number of TMs it wants, the expensive Fire Blast TM, and its other problems, I see Eevee (Flareon) in D-tier.
Shellder requires even more backtracking than Flareon. To have it available for as many important battles as possible, you have to do a huge amount of sidetracking to get it evolved before Rival 3 and Morty. Go through Mt. Mortar and get the number of the fisherman for the Water Stone near Mahogany Town, backtrack to your home to trigger his phone call, get back to him and get the stone, travel ahead to Olivine City to get the Good Rod and fish up Shellder, evolve it, then backtrack to Ecruteak City to go on with your playthrough. The time investment you have to do can be up to an hour depending on how stingy the fisherman is with his phone calls. So pretty big investment that should pull Shellder down at least 1 tier. But thankfully Cloyster is pretty good. Great typing, good stats and solid moves right away. It does have some problems dealing with other Water types because it only really has like Return to deal with them, and Return is going to be weak for a long time. Its low special defense is also going to become a problem in the late game. But overall pretty alright Pokemon.
Shellder has 1 nomination for C/D-tier and 2 for C-tier. I could see it in B-tier but considering all the time investment, C-tier for Shellder seems better.
Mantine is similar to Shellder but it doesn't require time investment to get ready. It is mostly a Surf button until you eventually can afford the Blizzard TM which it really wants. Still, it has some good stats and natural Agility is very nice. Its low attack sucks, though, as it has even bigger problems taking on other Water types than Shellder does. Wing Attack is also unresonably late, so your only real option is Take Down, which is just sad. It comes a bit late but it does match up well against the rest of the game and has no real bad matchups where it can't contribute anything.
Mantine has 2 nominations for C-tier and I agree. C-tier for Mantine is fine.
Finally, I will be doing a Silver run with the last 4 remaining Pokemon that need another nomination. Stay tuned.
Slowpoke, Lugia and Flareon could use the opinion of another runner as well, since the exact tier for them is rather contested. If someone other than me could also do another run with them, that would be great.
Here are my rough logs of all four:
Gym 1: level 9, Spinarak can 3HKO Pidgey if Poison Sting gets the Poison on the first hit, Pidgey's Tackle is a 6HKO, Pidgeotto can cleanly 2HKO Spinarak with Gust, the only hope is to status it with Poison Sting on the first try and then spam Potions, performance D-tier
Gym 2: level 17, Night Shade 3HKOs Metapod and Kakuna while they barely do any damage in return, Scyther is also 3HKOed by Night Shade and will always go for Fury Cutter which Spinarak can take 4 times, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 18, Night Shade 2HKOs Gastly who can only be annoying with Hypnosis and Lick, Zubat is just barely not 2HKOed by level 19 Night Shade, Bite isn't doing two much but Zubat is faster and can troll with status effects, the last Pokemon changes the fight drastically, Quilava simply outspeeds and 2HKOs Spinarak before it can do much, Bayleef is completely walled and easily taken care off, Croconaw is netral, Night Shade 3HKOs but Water Gun also does decent damage, Spinarak needs a Super Potion against it, performance either B-, C- or D-tier
Gym 3: level 22, Ariados does take out Clefairy eventually with Poison from Poison Sting and Dig, it can cause all shorts of problems with Metronome, though, since it gets so many turns, Miltank is very threatening, Scary Face can make it slower than Ariados and Dig can be used to break up Rollout, but Ariados really needs to get lucky with Poison and even some misses to have a real chance, performance C/D-tier
Rival 3: level 24, Haunter outspeeds and uses Curse, Dig KOs, you have to switch out and back in to remove Curse afterwards, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Ariados outspeeds Zubat and Return has a chance to OHKO, Quilava outspeeds and 2HKOs with Ember, Dig is almost an OHKO, against other starters the fight is better, performance B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly outspeeds and can set up a Curse, Dig KOs, Haunter is also KOed but it can be dangerous with Hypnosis if Ariados is under Curse, Gegnar's Dream Eater is an OHKO, so bring some items to wake Ariados up in case it hits its Hypnosis, Dig is a 2HKO, the second Haunter is also OHKOed by Dig, performance B-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds but it can't really do anything to Ariados, Sludge Bomb has a chance to OHKO, Poliwrath's Surf is almost a 2HKO, Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO from Ariados if it gets a Poison, Poliwrath can also be annoying with status, performance A/B-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Ariados outspeeds and OHKOs both Magnemites with Dig, Steelix is slower and Night Shade is a 4HKO but Iron Tail is a clean 2HKO on Ariados, so the only way to get through it is to spam Super Potions until Steelix misses, Jasmine also has a hyper Potion, so the chances are very low, performance C-rank
Gym 7: level 31, Ariados outspeeds and has a chance to OHKO Seel with Sludge Bomb, Dewgong is faster but Aurora Beam is only a 4HKO and Sludge Bomb cleanly 2HKOs Dewgong, Piloswine is slower than Ariados, Blizzard is a 3HKO, Ariados' Return is also a 3HKO, a Hyper Potion might be needed, performance A/B-rank
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and 2HKOs with Wing Attack before Ariados can take it out, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Quilava is faster and 2HKOs Ariados with Flame Wheel while Sludge Bomb is not an OHKO in return, Haunter is OHKOed by Dig after it uses Curse, Sneasel is only 2HKOed but likely won't do much damage also, performance B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, all three Dragonairs are faster and Surf, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt do about 30-35% to Ariados, Sludge Bomb 2HKOs them, Ariados needs 4 or 5 Hyper Potions to get to Kingdra, its Surf is doing 70% to Ariados, so it has no chance, performance D-tier
Rival 5: level 38, Sneasel outspeeds and tries to Screech, Sludge Bomb has a chance to OHKO, Wing Attack from Golbat is nearly a two-hit KO but Return is also a 2HKO on Golbat, Typholosion's Flame Wheel is nearly an OHKO from full and Sludge Bomb is only a 2HKO from Ariados, Magneton outspeeds but Thunder Shock isn't doing too much and Dig is an OHKO, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off but is also OHKOed by Dig, Kadabra always uses Future Sight first and then dies to a single Sludge Bomb, as always the battle is a bit better for Ariados if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium instead, performance B/C-tier
Will: level 38, very straight forward, Ariados gets outsped by everyone of Will's Pokemon except Slowbro, and each of his Pokemon lands a clean OHKO on Ariados with Psychic, it mostly won't even get an attack off, performance E-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados outspeeds Koga's Ariados and 3HKOs it with Return, his Ariados can't really do anything, Venomoth outspeeds Ariados and almost knocks it out from full with Psychic, Return is only a 3HKO, Crobat is faster and cleanly 2HKOs it with Wing Attack, Ariados is faster than Forretress and its Swifts don't do very much, 2 Night Shades bring it low enough that it wants to use Explosion, so it can use Dig to dodge it, Muk is also slower than Ariados and mostly walled by it but its setup moves can be annoying, Dig 3HKOs assuming no defense boosts, performance C-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop is faster but Ariados can dodge its Digs with its own Dig to never take damage, that does take a lot of PP and turns, though, and Dig is not doing a lot to Ariados anyway, Sludge Bomb has a chance to 2HKO, Hitmonchan is faster and its Fire Punch is doing around 30%, Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO, Onix's Rock Slide is an easy 2HKO on Ariados who has no good way of damaging it, Dig is risky because of Earthquake, Machamp is faster than Ariados and Rock Slide does over 80% while Sludge Bomb is only a 3 or 4HKO, Hitmonlee is walled by Ariados and can only damage it indirectly through Swagger, a +2 Sludge Bomb is an OHKO, performance C/D-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon is faster and Faint Attack does decent damage, Sludge Bomb is a likely 3HKO, Houndoom simply OHKOs Ariados with Flamethrower, Dig is a roll to knock Gengar out from half after it gets off a Curse, I will likely Destiny Bond Ariados, Vileplume is walled by Ariados and 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb, Murkrow's Faint Attack is close to a 2HKO on Ariados but Sludge Bomb is also a safe 2HKO in return, performance C-tier
Lance: level 38, Gyarados is faster, after Rain Dance Surf does 75% while Sludge Bomb is only a 3HKO, Hyper Beam is also doing similar damage, Aerodactyl and Charizard outspeed and OHKO Ariados with therir respective STAB moves, the level 47 Dragonites have a chance to OHKO Ariados from full with Hyper Beam, the level 50 one always does with Hyper Beam or Fire Blast, performance E-tier
Overall battle performance: C-tier
Gym 2: level 17, Night Shade 3HKOs Metapod and Kakuna while they barely do any damage in return, Scyther is also 3HKOed by Night Shade and will always go for Fury Cutter which Spinarak can take 4 times, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 18, Night Shade 2HKOs Gastly who can only be annoying with Hypnosis and Lick, Zubat is just barely not 2HKOed by level 19 Night Shade, Bite isn't doing two much but Zubat is faster and can troll with status effects, the last Pokemon changes the fight drastically, Quilava simply outspeeds and 2HKOs Spinarak before it can do much, Bayleef is completely walled and easily taken care off, Croconaw is netral, Night Shade 3HKOs but Water Gun also does decent damage, Spinarak needs a Super Potion against it, performance either B-, C- or D-tier
Gym 3: level 22, Ariados does take out Clefairy eventually with Poison from Poison Sting and Dig, it can cause all shorts of problems with Metronome, though, since it gets so many turns, Miltank is very threatening, Scary Face can make it slower than Ariados and Dig can be used to break up Rollout, but Ariados really needs to get lucky with Poison and even some misses to have a real chance, performance C/D-tier
Rival 3: level 24, Haunter outspeeds and uses Curse, Dig KOs, you have to switch out and back in to remove Curse afterwards, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Ariados outspeeds Zubat and Return has a chance to OHKO, Quilava outspeeds and 2HKOs with Ember, Dig is almost an OHKO, against other starters the fight is better, performance B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly outspeeds and can set up a Curse, Dig KOs, Haunter is also KOed but it can be dangerous with Hypnosis if Ariados is under Curse, Gegnar's Dream Eater is an OHKO, so bring some items to wake Ariados up in case it hits its Hypnosis, Dig is a 2HKO, the second Haunter is also OHKOed by Dig, performance B-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds but it can't really do anything to Ariados, Sludge Bomb has a chance to OHKO, Poliwrath's Surf is almost a 2HKO, Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO from Ariados if it gets a Poison, Poliwrath can also be annoying with status, performance A/B-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Ariados outspeeds and OHKOs both Magnemites with Dig, Steelix is slower and Night Shade is a 4HKO but Iron Tail is a clean 2HKO on Ariados, so the only way to get through it is to spam Super Potions until Steelix misses, Jasmine also has a hyper Potion, so the chances are very low, performance C-rank
Gym 7: level 31, Ariados outspeeds and has a chance to OHKO Seel with Sludge Bomb, Dewgong is faster but Aurora Beam is only a 4HKO and Sludge Bomb cleanly 2HKOs Dewgong, Piloswine is slower than Ariados, Blizzard is a 3HKO, Ariados' Return is also a 3HKO, a Hyper Potion might be needed, performance A/B-rank
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and 2HKOs with Wing Attack before Ariados can take it out, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Dig, Quilava is faster and 2HKOs Ariados with Flame Wheel while Sludge Bomb is not an OHKO in return, Haunter is OHKOed by Dig after it uses Curse, Sneasel is only 2HKOed but likely won't do much damage also, performance B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, all three Dragonairs are faster and Surf, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt do about 30-35% to Ariados, Sludge Bomb 2HKOs them, Ariados needs 4 or 5 Hyper Potions to get to Kingdra, its Surf is doing 70% to Ariados, so it has no chance, performance D-tier
Rival 5: level 38, Sneasel outspeeds and tries to Screech, Sludge Bomb has a chance to OHKO, Wing Attack from Golbat is nearly a two-hit KO but Return is also a 2HKO on Golbat, Typholosion's Flame Wheel is nearly an OHKO from full and Sludge Bomb is only a 2HKO from Ariados, Magneton outspeeds but Thunder Shock isn't doing too much and Dig is an OHKO, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off but is also OHKOed by Dig, Kadabra always uses Future Sight first and then dies to a single Sludge Bomb, as always the battle is a bit better for Ariados if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium instead, performance B/C-tier
Will: level 38, very straight forward, Ariados gets outsped by everyone of Will's Pokemon except Slowbro, and each of his Pokemon lands a clean OHKO on Ariados with Psychic, it mostly won't even get an attack off, performance E-tier
Koga: level 38, Ariados outspeeds Koga's Ariados and 3HKOs it with Return, his Ariados can't really do anything, Venomoth outspeeds Ariados and almost knocks it out from full with Psychic, Return is only a 3HKO, Crobat is faster and cleanly 2HKOs it with Wing Attack, Ariados is faster than Forretress and its Swifts don't do very much, 2 Night Shades bring it low enough that it wants to use Explosion, so it can use Dig to dodge it, Muk is also slower than Ariados and mostly walled by it but its setup moves can be annoying, Dig 3HKOs assuming no defense boosts, performance C-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop is faster but Ariados can dodge its Digs with its own Dig to never take damage, that does take a lot of PP and turns, though, and Dig is not doing a lot to Ariados anyway, Sludge Bomb has a chance to 2HKO, Hitmonchan is faster and its Fire Punch is doing around 30%, Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO, Onix's Rock Slide is an easy 2HKO on Ariados who has no good way of damaging it, Dig is risky because of Earthquake, Machamp is faster than Ariados and Rock Slide does over 80% while Sludge Bomb is only a 3 or 4HKO, Hitmonlee is walled by Ariados and can only damage it indirectly through Swagger, a +2 Sludge Bomb is an OHKO, performance C/D-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon is faster and Faint Attack does decent damage, Sludge Bomb is a likely 3HKO, Houndoom simply OHKOs Ariados with Flamethrower, Dig is a roll to knock Gengar out from half after it gets off a Curse, I will likely Destiny Bond Ariados, Vileplume is walled by Ariados and 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb, Murkrow's Faint Attack is close to a 2HKO on Ariados but Sludge Bomb is also a safe 2HKO in return, performance C-tier
Lance: level 38, Gyarados is faster, after Rain Dance Surf does 75% while Sludge Bomb is only a 3HKO, Hyper Beam is also doing similar damage, Aerodactyl and Charizard outspeed and OHKO Ariados with therir respective STAB moves, the level 47 Dragonites have a chance to OHKO Ariados from full with Hyper Beam, the level 50 one always does with Hyper Beam or Fire Blast, performance E-tier
Overall battle performance: C-tier
Rival 3: level 24, Haunter outspeeds and uses Curse, Mudslap has a chance to KO afterwards, Zubat is outsped and OHKOed by Headbutt, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Mud-Slap, Quilava is 2HKOed by Headbutt, against Croconaw and Bayleef the fight is a bit harder for Flareon (no Fire move yet), performance A/B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly is outsped but Mud-Slap fails to OHKO, so it gets a Curse off, Haunter is 2HKOed by Mud-Slap but it can be dangerous with Hypnosis and Night Shade is doing decent damage, after that Flareon has to switch out, healed and back in again if it has been cursed, Gengar's Shadow Ball is doing a ton of damage and nearly 2HKOs while Mud-Slap is only a 4HKO in return, a Hyper Potion is needed here, Mud-Slap only has a chance to 2HKO the second Haunter and by this point Mud-Slap has such low PP that one Spite from Haunter can make Flareon useless as it doesn't have another move to hit Ghost types yet, performance C-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds Flareon but doesn't do much damage unless it crits with Karate Chop, Fire Blast is not an OHKO, Shadow Ball, Headbutt or Return are all 2HKOs, Poliwrath is slower and Shadow Ball is a 3HKO but Surf or Dynamic Punch are dealing huge damage to Flareon, it can also hit Hypnosis, Flareon has to get a bit lucky, performance B/C-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Flareon outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with either Fire Blast or Mud-Slap, Steelix is also OHKOed by Fire Blast, Flareon could take 1 Rock Throw if it misses on Steelix, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO but Seel can't do more than slow Flareon down with Icy Wind, Dewgong is faster after the drop and tries to flinch Flareon with Headbutt, but it isn't doing too much. Shadow Ball and Fire Blast have a chance to 2HKO, Piloswine is OHKOed by Fire Blast while it is walled by Flareon, performance S/A-tier
Rival 4: level 32, Golbat is faster and can confuse Flareon or do decent damage with Wing Attack, Fire Blast into Shadow Ball is a 2HKO, Haunter is faster and its Shadow Ball does decent damage, Flareon's Shadow Ball OHKOs it, Quilava doesn't do much with Quick Attack and dies to 2 Shadow Balls, Feraligatr is a much bigger problem, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, Sneasel doesn't do much damage and is also OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, the three Dragonairs are faster and use Thunder Wave, Surf is doing 40% but Slam from the Ice Beam and Thunderbolt ones is only doing 30%, Iron Tail into Shadow Ball knocks them out, Kingdra's Surf is doing 90% and Shadow Ball is only a 4HKO, nothing Flareon can do against it, performance C-tier
Rival 5: level 36, Sneasel if faster but dies to Fire Blast or Iron Tail without doing much, Golbat is faster and does decent damage with Wing Attack or uses Confuse Ray, Flareon actually does a lot of damage to itself in confusion, so a single Full Restore might be needed here, Haunter is also faster and its Shadow Ball does decent damage but it is then also OHKOed in return by Flareon's Shadow Ball, Kadabra sets up a Future Sight and then instantly dies to Shadow Ball, Typhlosion is only 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but it also can't really touch Flareon, still with a Future Sight about to hit another Hyper Potion is probably needed, Magneton is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance changes a bit if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium instead, performance B-tier
Will: level 36, Xatu's Psychic does 40% and Flareon needs to be 2 or 3 levels higher to get the Shadow Ball OHKO with Spell Tag, Flareon needs a Hyper Potion afterwards, Slowbro is slower then Flareon but its Psychic is also a bit stronger as it is almost a 2HKO, Shadow Ball 2HKOs it, though, the second Xatu is just like the first, Shadow Ball is barely not an OHKO, so Flareon has to take 2 Psychics from it, Jynx outspeeds, Psychic does a lot and it can even put Flareon to sleep but at least Shadow Ball is an OHKO, Exeggutor is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance B-tier
Koga: level 38, Flareon outspeeds and OHKOs Ariados and Forretress with Fire Blast, Flareon outspeeds Muk but Iron Tail and Shadow Ball are only 3HKOs while Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO on Flareon, Venomoth outspeeds but its attacks don't do much damage, Fire Blast is an OHKO, Crobat is faster and does a lot of damage with Wing Attack, Fire Blast is a 2HKO with Charcoal, but hitting them can be difficult, performance B-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop outspeeds, Flareon 2HKOs with Shadow Ball into Iron Tail, however Hitontop's Dig is also a clean 2HKO, so 2 Hyper Potions are needed to get past, Onix is faster and nearly OHKOs from full with Earthquake, Iron Tail is also not an OHKO in return, Hitmonchan only ever uses Mach Punch but it does actually do decent damage, Iron Tail and Shadow Ball 2HKO it, Flareon outspeeds Machamp but Fire Blast is only a 3HKO and Cross Chop OHKOs Flareon, Hitmonlee is faster and High Jump Kick is 2HKOing Flareon, it can also use Swagger and if Flareon hits itself, it will deal itself 50% damage, meanwhile Flareon can only 3HKO it, performance D/E-tier
Karen: level 38, Flareon speed ties with Umbreon, Faint Attack isn't doing too much but Umbreon needs 4 Fire Blasts and/or Iron Tails to knock it out, Flareon will probably win the 1v1 but with Confuse Ray and Sand-Attack it can cost you a lot of nerves and could let Flareon be very unreliable for the next Pokemon, Shadow Ball from Flareon is not an OHKO on the faster Gengar, so Bite should be used first to not provoke Destiny Bond, otherwise Gengar can only really annoy with satus moves, Murkrow has a chance to be OHKOed by Fire Blast and its Faint Attack is only doing 25%, if Flareon is lacking Return or Headbutt, then it is walled by Houndoom, its Crunch is also doing a lot of damage, performance C-tier
Lance: level 39, Gyarados outspeeds Flareon and after Rain Dance Surf is almost an OHKO, meanwhile Shadow Ball is only a 3HKO, Aerodactyl OHKOs from full with Rock Slide, the Dragonites outspeed and Hyper Beam is an OHKO from full, Charizard is faster, its Wing Attack is doing close to half and Hyper Beam does 75%, Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, Flareon can only take Charizard on with mulitple Hyper Potions, performance E-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly is outsped but Mud-Slap fails to OHKO, so it gets a Curse off, Haunter is 2HKOed by Mud-Slap but it can be dangerous with Hypnosis and Night Shade is doing decent damage, after that Flareon has to switch out, healed and back in again if it has been cursed, Gengar's Shadow Ball is doing a ton of damage and nearly 2HKOs while Mud-Slap is only a 4HKO in return, a Hyper Potion is needed here, Mud-Slap only has a chance to 2HKO the second Haunter and by this point Mud-Slap has such low PP that one Spite from Haunter can make Flareon useless as it doesn't have another move to hit Ghost types yet, performance C-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape outspeeds Flareon but doesn't do much damage unless it crits with Karate Chop, Fire Blast is not an OHKO, Shadow Ball, Headbutt or Return are all 2HKOs, Poliwrath is slower and Shadow Ball is a 3HKO but Surf or Dynamic Punch are dealing huge damage to Flareon, it can also hit Hypnosis, Flareon has to get a bit lucky, performance B/C-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Flareon outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with either Fire Blast or Mud-Slap, Steelix is also OHKOed by Fire Blast, Flareon could take 1 Rock Throw if it misses on Steelix, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO but Seel can't do more than slow Flareon down with Icy Wind, Dewgong is faster after the drop and tries to flinch Flareon with Headbutt, but it isn't doing too much. Shadow Ball and Fire Blast have a chance to 2HKO, Piloswine is OHKOed by Fire Blast while it is walled by Flareon, performance S/A-tier
Rival 4: level 32, Golbat is faster and can confuse Flareon or do decent damage with Wing Attack, Fire Blast into Shadow Ball is a 2HKO, Haunter is faster and its Shadow Ball does decent damage, Flareon's Shadow Ball OHKOs it, Quilava doesn't do much with Quick Attack and dies to 2 Shadow Balls, Feraligatr is a much bigger problem, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, Sneasel doesn't do much damage and is also OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, the three Dragonairs are faster and use Thunder Wave, Surf is doing 40% but Slam from the Ice Beam and Thunderbolt ones is only doing 30%, Iron Tail into Shadow Ball knocks them out, Kingdra's Surf is doing 90% and Shadow Ball is only a 4HKO, nothing Flareon can do against it, performance C-tier
Rival 5: level 36, Sneasel if faster but dies to Fire Blast or Iron Tail without doing much, Golbat is faster and does decent damage with Wing Attack or uses Confuse Ray, Flareon actually does a lot of damage to itself in confusion, so a single Full Restore might be needed here, Haunter is also faster and its Shadow Ball does decent damage but it is then also OHKOed in return by Flareon's Shadow Ball, Kadabra sets up a Future Sight and then instantly dies to Shadow Ball, Typhlosion is only 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but it also can't really touch Flareon, still with a Future Sight about to hit another Hyper Potion is probably needed, Magneton is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance changes a bit if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium instead, performance B-tier
Will: level 36, Xatu's Psychic does 40% and Flareon needs to be 2 or 3 levels higher to get the Shadow Ball OHKO with Spell Tag, Flareon needs a Hyper Potion afterwards, Slowbro is slower then Flareon but its Psychic is also a bit stronger as it is almost a 2HKO, Shadow Ball 2HKOs it, though, the second Xatu is just like the first, Shadow Ball is barely not an OHKO, so Flareon has to take 2 Psychics from it, Jynx outspeeds, Psychic does a lot and it can even put Flareon to sleep but at least Shadow Ball is an OHKO, Exeggutor is outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast, performance B-tier
Koga: level 38, Flareon outspeeds and OHKOs Ariados and Forretress with Fire Blast, Flareon outspeeds Muk but Iron Tail and Shadow Ball are only 3HKOs while Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO on Flareon, Venomoth outspeeds but its attacks don't do much damage, Fire Blast is an OHKO, Crobat is faster and does a lot of damage with Wing Attack, Fire Blast is a 2HKO with Charcoal, but hitting them can be difficult, performance B-tier
Bruno: level 38, Hitmontop outspeeds, Flareon 2HKOs with Shadow Ball into Iron Tail, however Hitontop's Dig is also a clean 2HKO, so 2 Hyper Potions are needed to get past, Onix is faster and nearly OHKOs from full with Earthquake, Iron Tail is also not an OHKO in return, Hitmonchan only ever uses Mach Punch but it does actually do decent damage, Iron Tail and Shadow Ball 2HKO it, Flareon outspeeds Machamp but Fire Blast is only a 3HKO and Cross Chop OHKOs Flareon, Hitmonlee is faster and High Jump Kick is 2HKOing Flareon, it can also use Swagger and if Flareon hits itself, it will deal itself 50% damage, meanwhile Flareon can only 3HKO it, performance D/E-tier
Karen: level 38, Flareon speed ties with Umbreon, Faint Attack isn't doing too much but Umbreon needs 4 Fire Blasts and/or Iron Tails to knock it out, Flareon will probably win the 1v1 but with Confuse Ray and Sand-Attack it can cost you a lot of nerves and could let Flareon be very unreliable for the next Pokemon, Shadow Ball from Flareon is not an OHKO on the faster Gengar, so Bite should be used first to not provoke Destiny Bond, otherwise Gengar can only really annoy with satus moves, Murkrow has a chance to be OHKOed by Fire Blast and its Faint Attack is only doing 25%, if Flareon is lacking Return or Headbutt, then it is walled by Houndoom, its Crunch is also doing a lot of damage, performance C-tier
Lance: level 39, Gyarados outspeeds Flareon and after Rain Dance Surf is almost an OHKO, meanwhile Shadow Ball is only a 3HKO, Aerodactyl OHKOs from full with Rock Slide, the Dragonites outspeed and Hyper Beam is an OHKO from full, Charizard is faster, its Wing Attack is doing close to half and Hyper Beam does 75%, Shadow Ball is a 3HKO, Flareon can only take Charizard on with mulitple Hyper Potions, performance E-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Rival 3: level 24, Cloyster outspeeds Haunter but Surf fails to OHKO, so it will get a Curse off, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Zubat is outsped and OHKOey by Aurora Beam, Quilava is outsped and OHKOedy by Suf, against Croconaw and Bayleef Cloyster has to switch out and back in to reset Curse but will then beat them, performance S/A-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is also outsped and OHKOed, Gengar is faster and can only be annyoing with Hypnosis, Shadow Ball isn't doing much, Surf is a 2HKO, bring some Awakenings with you, the second Haunter is slower and OHKOed again, performance S-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Cloyster outspeeds Primeape and 2HKOs with Surf, Karate Chop is only doing 20%, Poliwrath is also slower but both Surf and Return are only 5HKOs while Dynamic Punch is a 2HKO, Hypnosis can also be annyoing, performance B/C-tier
Gym 6: level 31, all three of Jasmine's Pokemon are outsped and OHKOed by Surf, none of her Pokemon even get a move off, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is outsped and Return has a chance to 2HKO it, just like Seel, Dewgong is walled by Cloyster, however Cloyster is also only 3HKOing Dewgong with at least 1 crit Return, otherwise it just gets stalled out with Rest, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Piloswine with Surf, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 33, Cloyster outspeeds Golbat and Aurora Beam has a chance to OHKO, it can't do much in return, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is slower and OHKOed by Surf too, Sneasel is faster but its Faint Attacks are not doing much and Surf is a 2HKO, Quilava is outsped and OHKOed as well, Cloyster has some problems with Feraligatr and Meganium, though, performance S/A-tier
Gym 8: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds the three Dragonairs and Aurora Beam is just strong enough with Never-Melt Ice to OHKO all of them, Cloyster is faster than Kingdra and Aurora Beam is a 3HKO but its Dragon Breath is very close to being a 2HKO on Cloyster, its chances 1v1 are not great due to possible crits and Paralysis, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 38, Sneasel doesn't really do much with Faint Attack and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Surf, Magneton is outsped but sadly not OHKOed by Surf, luckily it will always go for Thunder Wave first, so if you still have a PRZCureBerry then equip it to Cloyster to get a free turn here, otherwise Cloyster will eat a ton of damage to Thunder Shock and will need a Full Restore afterwards, Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Kadabra doesn't attack on the first turn and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Surf, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Golbat with Aurora Beam, Typhlosion is faster than Cloyster and does just under half to it with Flame Wheel, Icy Wind + Surf knocks it out, performance gets a bit worse if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 38, Xatu is faster and does around 75% with Psychic if it goes for it, Cloyster has a high chance to OHKO with Aurora Beam but it is safer to go Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Jynx is also faster and about as strong as Xatu, Surf and Return are also both no 2HKO, Cloyster is faster than Slowbro but it has no good way of hitting it and Psychic does huge damage, a terrible matchups, Cloyster outspeeds Exeggutor but Aurora Beam is not an OHKO and its Psychic is an OHKO on Cloyster in return, the second Xatu works the same as the first one, Cloyster can take 1 Psychic from full and Icy Wind into Aurora Beam 2HKOs it, performance D-tier
Koga: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds and 2HKOs Ariados with Surf, it only gets one turn and Giga Drain isn't doing much if it even chose to use it, Venomoth outspeeds Cloyster and its Psychic is close to a 2HKO, Icy Wind into 2 Surfs is going to knock it out, a Hyper Potion will likely be needed here, Forretress is 2HKO with Mystic Water Surf, it wastes the one turn it gets by using Spikes, Muk is slower and Surf has a chance to 3HKO, Muk doesn't do too much damage overall but it could be that 1 Full Restore is needed, Crobat is walled by Cloyster and 2 Aurora Beams knock it out, performance A/B-tier
Bruno: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds Hitmontop and Surf is a 3HKO, Hitmontop can barely do any damage, Hitmonlee is faster than Cloyster and High Jump Kick is almost a 2HKO, Cloyster can only 3HKO it with Surf, Hitmonchan is slower and Surf yet again 3HKOs but 2 Thunder Punches into Mach Punch also knocks out Cloyster from full, Cloyster outspeeds Machamp but Surf is only a 4HKO and Cross Chop is an OHKO from full, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Onix, performance C-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon is slower and 4HKOed by Surf, Faint Attack does actually do a lot of damage, so 1 Hyper Potion is needed here, Cloyster outspeeds Vileplume and Aurora Beam is a clean 2HKO but sadly Petal Dance is an OHKO from full, Gengar is faster but Lick is doing no damage outside of the Paralysis chance, when Cloyster is at high health it likely won't use Curse, Icy Wind into 2 Surfs knocks it out, Houndoom outspeeds and OHKOs Cloyster from full with Flamethrower, Murkrow is faster and its Faint Attack is very close to a 2HKO, Aurora Beam is an OHKO, though, performance D-tier
Lance: level 38, Gyarados is faster until Cloyster uses Icy Wind, but it can't do very much damage, even Hyper Beam is not a 2HKO, but Gyarados also takes 4 Aurora Beams to take down, so 1 Hyper Potion is needed, the Dragonites outspeed Cloyster, it just has get lucky with the Thunder Dragonite and dodge its attack as Thunder is a clean OHKO from full, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam knocks out all Dragonites (Aurora Beam is not an OHKO), Aerodactyl is not OHKOed from Aurora Beam and still faster than Cloyster even after an Icy Wind, Rock Slide is just barely a 2HKO and it can also flinch, Cloyster just has to stall with Hyper Potions until it misses a Rock Slide (if Aurora Beam gets an attack drop, then that will also do it) or sack something and bring back a full health Cloyster, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is an OHKO from full, so you have to bait it into a Hyper Beam to 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Charizard outspeeds and OHKOs Cloyster from full with Flamethrower, same idea, you have have bait it into Hyper Beam to 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Surf, performance D-rank
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Gastly is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is also outsped and OHKOed, Gengar is faster and can only be annyoing with Hypnosis, Shadow Ball isn't doing much, Surf is a 2HKO, bring some Awakenings with you, the second Haunter is slower and OHKOed again, performance S-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Cloyster outspeeds Primeape and 2HKOs with Surf, Karate Chop is only doing 20%, Poliwrath is also slower but both Surf and Return are only 5HKOs while Dynamic Punch is a 2HKO, Hypnosis can also be annyoing, performance B/C-tier
Gym 6: level 31, all three of Jasmine's Pokemon are outsped and OHKOed by Surf, none of her Pokemon even get a move off, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is outsped and Return has a chance to 2HKO it, just like Seel, Dewgong is walled by Cloyster, however Cloyster is also only 3HKOing Dewgong with at least 1 crit Return, otherwise it just gets stalled out with Rest, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Piloswine with Surf, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 33, Cloyster outspeeds Golbat and Aurora Beam has a chance to OHKO, it can't do much in return, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is slower and OHKOed by Surf too, Sneasel is faster but its Faint Attacks are not doing much and Surf is a 2HKO, Quilava is outsped and OHKOed as well, Cloyster has some problems with Feraligatr and Meganium, though, performance S/A-tier
Gym 8: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds the three Dragonairs and Aurora Beam is just strong enough with Never-Melt Ice to OHKO all of them, Cloyster is faster than Kingdra and Aurora Beam is a 3HKO but its Dragon Breath is very close to being a 2HKO on Cloyster, its chances 1v1 are not great due to possible crits and Paralysis, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 38, Sneasel doesn't really do much with Faint Attack and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Surf, Magneton is outsped but sadly not OHKOed by Surf, luckily it will always go for Thunder Wave first, so if you still have a PRZCureBerry then equip it to Cloyster to get a free turn here, otherwise Cloyster will eat a ton of damage to Thunder Shock and will need a Full Restore afterwards, Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Kadabra doesn't attack on the first turn and is 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Surf, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Golbat with Aurora Beam, Typhlosion is faster than Cloyster and does just under half to it with Flame Wheel, Icy Wind + Surf knocks it out, performance gets a bit worse if the rival has Feraligatr or Meganium, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 38, Xatu is faster and does around 75% with Psychic if it goes for it, Cloyster has a high chance to OHKO with Aurora Beam but it is safer to go Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Jynx is also faster and about as strong as Xatu, Surf and Return are also both no 2HKO, Cloyster is faster than Slowbro but it has no good way of hitting it and Psychic does huge damage, a terrible matchups, Cloyster outspeeds Exeggutor but Aurora Beam is not an OHKO and its Psychic is an OHKO on Cloyster in return, the second Xatu works the same as the first one, Cloyster can take 1 Psychic from full and Icy Wind into Aurora Beam 2HKOs it, performance D-tier
Koga: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds and 2HKOs Ariados with Surf, it only gets one turn and Giga Drain isn't doing much if it even chose to use it, Venomoth outspeeds Cloyster and its Psychic is close to a 2HKO, Icy Wind into 2 Surfs is going to knock it out, a Hyper Potion will likely be needed here, Forretress is 2HKO with Mystic Water Surf, it wastes the one turn it gets by using Spikes, Muk is slower and Surf has a chance to 3HKO, Muk doesn't do too much damage overall but it could be that 1 Full Restore is needed, Crobat is walled by Cloyster and 2 Aurora Beams knock it out, performance A/B-tier
Bruno: level 38, Cloyster outspeeds Hitmontop and Surf is a 3HKO, Hitmontop can barely do any damage, Hitmonlee is faster than Cloyster and High Jump Kick is almost a 2HKO, Cloyster can only 3HKO it with Surf, Hitmonchan is slower and Surf yet again 3HKOs but 2 Thunder Punches into Mach Punch also knocks out Cloyster from full, Cloyster outspeeds Machamp but Surf is only a 4HKO and Cross Chop is an OHKO from full, Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOs Onix, performance C-tier
Karen: level 38, Umbreon is slower and 4HKOed by Surf, Faint Attack does actually do a lot of damage, so 1 Hyper Potion is needed here, Cloyster outspeeds Vileplume and Aurora Beam is a clean 2HKO but sadly Petal Dance is an OHKO from full, Gengar is faster but Lick is doing no damage outside of the Paralysis chance, when Cloyster is at high health it likely won't use Curse, Icy Wind into 2 Surfs knocks it out, Houndoom outspeeds and OHKOs Cloyster from full with Flamethrower, Murkrow is faster and its Faint Attack is very close to a 2HKO, Aurora Beam is an OHKO, though, performance D-tier
Lance: level 38, Gyarados is faster until Cloyster uses Icy Wind, but it can't do very much damage, even Hyper Beam is not a 2HKO, but Gyarados also takes 4 Aurora Beams to take down, so 1 Hyper Potion is needed, the Dragonites outspeed Cloyster, it just has get lucky with the Thunder Dragonite and dodge its attack as Thunder is a clean OHKO from full, Icy Wind into Aurora Beam knocks out all Dragonites (Aurora Beam is not an OHKO), Aerodactyl is not OHKOed from Aurora Beam and still faster than Cloyster even after an Icy Wind, Rock Slide is just barely a 2HKO and it can also flinch, Cloyster just has to stall with Hyper Potions until it misses a Rock Slide (if Aurora Beam gets an attack drop, then that will also do it) or sack something and bring back a full health Cloyster, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is an OHKO from full, so you have to bait it into a Hyper Beam to 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Aurora Beam, Charizard outspeeds and OHKOs Cloyster from full with Flamethrower, same idea, you have have bait it into Hyper Beam to 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Surf, performance D-rank
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Mantine outspeeds Primeape and 2HKOs with Surf, it can't do much in return, Mantine has no good attack to hit Poliwrath, Take Down does too little, it can only slowly chip it down with Surf and Supersonic, luckily Surf and Dynamic Punch don't do much in return, so Mantine will eventually come out on top, performance A-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with Surf, Steelix is barely not OHKOed by Surf even with the Mystic Water and sets up Sunny Day, after Jasmine uses her Hyper Potion Surf is a 3HKO in sun, Steelix gets one Rock Throw in before it goes down and it is not a 2HKO, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is slower than Mantine even after an Icy Wind and Take Down 3HKOs it, Dewgong completely walls Mantine as Take Down and Surf are only 5HKOs and it can outstall it with Rest or flinch it to death with Headbutt, the only way for Mantine to take Dewgong down is some lucky Supersonic cheese, Piloswine is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and can be annoying with decent Wing Attack damage or Confuse Ray, Surf is a safe 2HKO, Magnemite can be dangerous if Mantine hits itself in confusion but otherwise is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is faster than Mantine and gets a Curse off, Surf knocks it out afterwards, Mantine has to switch out, healed and switch back in before taking on Sneasel, none of its attacks do much damage to Mantine and Surf is a safe 2HKO, Mantine easily takes out Quilava with 1 Surf, it has a much tougher time taking down Feraligatr and Meganium, though, as it can only chip them down over time with healing support, performance B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs all three Dragonairs with Blizzard, a miss is only really dangerous on the Thunderbolt one, the other two can't do much damage outside of using Thunder Wave, Kingdra is faster than Mantine but its Surfs and Dragon Breaths don't do much damage, Hyper Beam does 50%, though, and Mantine can't really hit it as Surf and Take Down do pathetic damage and Blizzard only has 5 PP, meanwhile Kingdra spams Smoke Screens on Mantine, with enough healing items it probably eventually wins but it takes forever, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Sneasel is walled, so Mantine can get an Agility off and then 2HKO with Surf, Magneton is outsped but sadly not OHKOed by Surf, luckily it will always go for Thunder Wave first, so if you still have a PRZCureBerry then equip it to Mantine to get a free turn here, otherwise Mantine will eat a ton of damage to Thunder Shock and will need a Full Restore afterwards, Golbat has chance to be OHKOed with Blizzard if Mantine is at higher level or carries the Never-Melt Ice, otherwise Surf also 2HKOs, Wing Attack from Golbat doesn't do too much, Mantine has a chance to OHKO Haunter with Surf, Kadabra is 2HKOed by Surf who just wastes its only turn on Future Sight, Mantine needs to be at a bit of an higher level to get the OHKO on Typhlosion but it is walled by Mantine anyway, so you can easily go for the 2HKO with Surf, the fight against the rival with Feraligatr or Meganium is more difficult but also good, performance A-tier
Will: level 38, Mantine can set up an Agility and then have a high chance to OHKO Xatu with Blizzard, its Psychic isn't doing too much but it can be annoying to try to hit Blizzard through Confuse Ray, Jynx is 3HKOed by Surf and its Psychics also sting a bit more, 1 Full Restore is probably going to be needed around here, Mantine is completely walled by Slowbro, once it starts setting up with Amnesia and Curse, it has to switch out, Exeggutor is not quite OHKOed by Blizzard and its Psychic does pack enough of a punch for a 2HKO, the second Xatu is also not OHKOed by Blizzard but Mantine can take its Psychics much better, performance C-tier
Koga: level 38, Mantine can set up an Agillity as Ariados doesn't really do anything, Surf is a clean 2HKO afterwards, Forretress is 2HKOed by Mystic Water Surf and wastes its one turn on Spikes, Muk is 4HKOed by Surf but its Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Mantine, there is a good chance that it will waste some turns on status moves, though, Crobat is outsped with the Agility boost and Blizzard 2HKOs, Crobat's Wing Attack does decent damage, though, Venomoth is barely not 2HKOed by Surf but it also doesn't deal a lot of damage to Mantine, performance B-tier
Bruno: level 39, Hitmontop is almost walled and will only use Quick Attack, Surf 3HKOs, Mantine is faster than Hitmonchan and can also 3HKO it with Surf, even with a double super effective damage, Thunder Punch is only doing 40%, so with 1 Hyper Potion Matine can take it on, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs Onix with Surf, Machamp is slower but its Rock Slide does a ton to Mantine and Surf or Wing Attack only 3HKO it, Hitmonlee is faster (without Agility) but can't do much damage, Wing Attack is a 2HKO, performance B-tier
Karen: level 40, Mantine is faster than Umbreon and Surf is a 4HKO, it can also set up an Agility before it knocks it out, Umbreon's Faint Attack is doing little damage, so it can only be annoying with its status moves, Surf is not a 2HKO on Gengar, so it can get a Curse off before it goes down or be annoying with Lick and Spite, Murkrow is OHKOed by Blizzard, Vileplume's Petal Dance isn't doing that much and BLizzard into Wing Attack is enough to knock it out, Houndoom does not die to 1 Surf and Crunch is still doing almost half surprisingly, after Karen uses her Max Potion, 2 Surfs knock Houndoom out, performance B/C-tier
Lance: level 40, Gyarados is faster and goes for Hyper Beam right away which does 75%, Mantine can set up an Agility and then has to stall with Hyper Potions until it runs out of Hyper Beams while chipping Gyarados down, Mantine OHKOs the leve 47 Dragonites with Blizzard when it has the Never-Melt Ice equipped, otherwise it is a roll, it can take one Thunder or Hyper Beam, but it really doesn't want to, Surf is not an OHKO on Aerodactyl and Rock Slide OHKOs Mantine in return, Charizard is 2HKOed by Surf but its Hyper Beam also does a lot, the level 50 Dragonite is OHKOed by Blizzard (again only with Never-Melt Ice), performance A/B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 6: level 31, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs the two Magnemites with Surf, Steelix is barely not OHKOed by Surf even with the Mystic Water and sets up Sunny Day, after Jasmine uses her Hyper Potion Surf is a 3HKO in sun, Steelix gets one Rock Throw in before it goes down and it is not a 2HKO, performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seel is slower than Mantine even after an Icy Wind and Take Down 3HKOs it, Dewgong completely walls Mantine as Take Down and Surf are only 5HKOs and it can outstall it with Rest or flinch it to death with Headbutt, the only way for Mantine to take Dewgong down is some lucky Supersonic cheese, Piloswine is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, performance B-tier
Rival 4: level 31, Golbat is faster and can be annoying with decent Wing Attack damage or Confuse Ray, Surf is a safe 2HKO, Magnemite can be dangerous if Mantine hits itself in confusion but otherwise is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is faster than Mantine and gets a Curse off, Surf knocks it out afterwards, Mantine has to switch out, healed and switch back in before taking on Sneasel, none of its attacks do much damage to Mantine and Surf is a safe 2HKO, Mantine easily takes out Quilava with 1 Surf, it has a much tougher time taking down Feraligatr and Meganium, though, as it can only chip them down over time with healing support, performance B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 35, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs all three Dragonairs with Blizzard, a miss is only really dangerous on the Thunderbolt one, the other two can't do much damage outside of using Thunder Wave, Kingdra is faster than Mantine but its Surfs and Dragon Breaths don't do much damage, Hyper Beam does 50%, though, and Mantine can't really hit it as Surf and Take Down do pathetic damage and Blizzard only has 5 PP, meanwhile Kingdra spams Smoke Screens on Mantine, with enough healing items it probably eventually wins but it takes forever, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 37, Sneasel is walled, so Mantine can get an Agility off and then 2HKO with Surf, Magneton is outsped but sadly not OHKOed by Surf, luckily it will always go for Thunder Wave first, so if you still have a PRZCureBerry then equip it to Mantine to get a free turn here, otherwise Mantine will eat a ton of damage to Thunder Shock and will need a Full Restore afterwards, Golbat has chance to be OHKOed with Blizzard if Mantine is at higher level or carries the Never-Melt Ice, otherwise Surf also 2HKOs, Wing Attack from Golbat doesn't do too much, Mantine has a chance to OHKO Haunter with Surf, Kadabra is 2HKOed by Surf who just wastes its only turn on Future Sight, Mantine needs to be at a bit of an higher level to get the OHKO on Typhlosion but it is walled by Mantine anyway, so you can easily go for the 2HKO with Surf, the fight against the rival with Feraligatr or Meganium is more difficult but also good, performance A-tier
Will: level 38, Mantine can set up an Agility and then have a high chance to OHKO Xatu with Blizzard, its Psychic isn't doing too much but it can be annoying to try to hit Blizzard through Confuse Ray, Jynx is 3HKOed by Surf and its Psychics also sting a bit more, 1 Full Restore is probably going to be needed around here, Mantine is completely walled by Slowbro, once it starts setting up with Amnesia and Curse, it has to switch out, Exeggutor is not quite OHKOed by Blizzard and its Psychic does pack enough of a punch for a 2HKO, the second Xatu is also not OHKOed by Blizzard but Mantine can take its Psychics much better, performance C-tier
Koga: level 38, Mantine can set up an Agillity as Ariados doesn't really do anything, Surf is a clean 2HKO afterwards, Forretress is 2HKOed by Mystic Water Surf and wastes its one turn on Spikes, Muk is 4HKOed by Surf but its Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Mantine, there is a good chance that it will waste some turns on status moves, though, Crobat is outsped with the Agility boost and Blizzard 2HKOs, Crobat's Wing Attack does decent damage, though, Venomoth is barely not 2HKOed by Surf but it also doesn't deal a lot of damage to Mantine, performance B-tier
Bruno: level 39, Hitmontop is almost walled and will only use Quick Attack, Surf 3HKOs, Mantine is faster than Hitmonchan and can also 3HKO it with Surf, even with a double super effective damage, Thunder Punch is only doing 40%, so with 1 Hyper Potion Matine can take it on, Mantine outspeeds and OHKOs Onix with Surf, Machamp is slower but its Rock Slide does a ton to Mantine and Surf or Wing Attack only 3HKO it, Hitmonlee is faster (without Agility) but can't do much damage, Wing Attack is a 2HKO, performance B-tier
Karen: level 40, Mantine is faster than Umbreon and Surf is a 4HKO, it can also set up an Agility before it knocks it out, Umbreon's Faint Attack is doing little damage, so it can only be annoying with its status moves, Surf is not a 2HKO on Gengar, so it can get a Curse off before it goes down or be annoying with Lick and Spite, Murkrow is OHKOed by Blizzard, Vileplume's Petal Dance isn't doing that much and BLizzard into Wing Attack is enough to knock it out, Houndoom does not die to 1 Surf and Crunch is still doing almost half surprisingly, after Karen uses her Max Potion, 2 Surfs knock Houndoom out, performance B/C-tier
Lance: level 40, Gyarados is faster and goes for Hyper Beam right away which does 75%, Mantine can set up an Agility and then has to stall with Hyper Potions until it runs out of Hyper Beams while chipping Gyarados down, Mantine OHKOs the leve 47 Dragonites with Blizzard when it has the Never-Melt Ice equipped, otherwise it is a roll, it can take one Thunder or Hyper Beam, but it really doesn't want to, Surf is not an OHKO on Aerodactyl and Rock Slide OHKOs Mantine in return, Charizard is 2HKOed by Surf but its Hyper Beam also does a lot, the level 50 Dragonite is OHKOed by Blizzard (again only with Never-Melt Ice), performance A/B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Spinarak is just what you expect it to be. It is bad, shocker! It has no real moves early game and you have to give it the Dig TM and then clear Team Rocket in Mahogany Town as soon as possible for the Sludge Bomb TM, so it can actually deal damage. Its stats are also really bad, especially its low speed that gives it some truely horrible matchups sometimes. Otherwise STAB Sludge Bomb from 90 base attack isn't the worst I guess, and Dig lets it defeat some otherwise impossible matchups. It is also available for the entire game and the oppertunity cost is fairly minimal.
Spinarak has 2 nominations for D-tier and I agree with that. Pretty bad Pokemon but it is not entirely useless, D-tier for Spinarak is fine.
Flareon is pretty unfortunate. You have to invest so heavily to get the most out of it, and what you get is rather mediocre for a Pokemon with good stats. Like with all Eevee evolutions, you have to backtrack from Ecruteak City to Goldenrod City to even get the gift Eevee. And sadly you get a level 20 Eevee, which means it misses the level 16 Ember. So no STAB Fire moves until level 36 Fire Spin or the Fire Blast TM. Eevee is pretty bad, so you want the Fire Stone as soon as possible. Which means backtracking to your home on bike after you got the NPC phone number, and then doing the DST trick until you get the response that gives you a stone. Flareon needs the Headbutt and Mud-Slap TMs to get a good start against Rival 3 and Morty. Then it wants the Shadow Ball TM as a stronger way to hit Ghosts. If you are coniderate about your money and also sell a bunch of stuff, you can afford the expensive Fire Blast TM before the Steel Gym. The late game is rather poor for Flareon. Its low speed and physical bulk is a problem, and it has no utility moves. Return is going to take forever to outdamage Shadow Ball if you go for that.
Flareon has 1 nomination for C-tier and 1 for C/D-tier. With the backtracking, the required stone, the high number of TMs it wants, the expensive Fire Blast TM, and its other problems, I see Eevee (Flareon) in D-tier.
Shellder requires even more backtracking than Flareon. To have it available for as many important battles as possible, you have to do a huge amount of sidetracking to get it evolved before Rival 3 and Morty. Go through Mt. Mortar and get the number of the fisherman for the Water Stone near Mahogany Town, backtrack to your home to trigger his phone call, get back to him and get the stone, travel ahead to Olivine City to get the Good Rod and fish up Shellder, evolve it, then backtrack to Ecruteak City to go on with your playthrough. The time investment you have to do can be up to an hour depending on how stingy the fisherman is with his phone calls. So pretty big investment that should pull Shellder down at least 1 tier. But thankfully Cloyster is pretty good. Great typing, good stats and solid moves right away. It does have some problems dealing with other Water types because it only really has like Return to deal with them, and Return is going to be weak for a long time. Its low special defense is also going to become a problem in the late game. But overall pretty alright Pokemon.
Shellder has 1 nomination for C/D-tier and 2 for C-tier. I could see it in B-tier but considering all the time investment, C-tier for Shellder seems better.
Mantine is similar to Shellder but it doesn't require time investment to get ready. It is mostly a Surf button until you eventually can afford the Blizzard TM which it really wants. Still, it has some good stats and natural Agility is very nice. Its low attack sucks, though, as it has even bigger problems taking on other Water types than Shellder does. Wing Attack is also unresonably late, so your only real option is Take Down, which is just sad. It comes a bit late but it does match up well against the rest of the game and has no real bad matchups where it can't contribute anything.
Mantine has 2 nominations for C-tier and I agree. C-tier for Mantine is fine.
Finally, I will be doing a Silver run with the last 4 remaining Pokemon that need another nomination. Stay tuned.
Slowpoke, Lugia and Flareon could use the opinion of another runner as well, since the exact tier for them is rather contested. If someone other than me could also do another run with them, that would be great.
Slowpoke (Slobro) (Has 1 Nomination for D, C/D, and C each)
Lugia (Has 1 Nomination is A, B, and C each)
Goldeen (Has 2 nomination for D Tier)
Remoraid (Has 1 Nomination for E tier 2 for D tier)
Lugia (Has 1 Nomination is A, B, and C each)
Goldeen (Has 2 nomination for D Tier)
Remoraid (Has 1 Nomination for E tier 2 for D tier)
Just piping in here regarding Gengar. Getting Gengar at Morty isn't really "half" the game since you have many more tests to include after. That's where the A Tiering comes in and why it's barred from ever even getting into S Tier which may prove to difficult for it even if it had the ability to hit S.
It's true that it effectively offers little until Morty, but after, with the help of some of the Elemental Punches, it blasts off and makes the game somewhat fold to its power. There are a few fights it can't do much but neither could Zam and that's in S to make a point (granted Zam is obtained much earlier and that helps it immensely so take it as you will). The starting points are also laughable to the point Falkner and Bugsy are kinda...not very strong points to have against a Pokemon. Plus I believe Gastly can beat Bugsy but it's super time consuming to do so. Don't quote me on that of course. Rival 2 and Whitney I would say are weighed a bit more heavily because of how difficult they are a bit more. Even then, tests are tests, logs are logs. It has a few fights against it but even then, it's perfectly fine for A with the negatives.
It's true that it effectively offers little until Morty, but after, with the help of some of the Elemental Punches, it blasts off and makes the game somewhat fold to its power. There are a few fights it can't do much but neither could Zam and that's in S to make a point (granted Zam is obtained much earlier and that helps it immensely so take it as you will). The starting points are also laughable to the point Falkner and Bugsy are kinda...not very strong points to have against a Pokemon. Plus I believe Gastly can beat Bugsy but it's super time consuming to do so. Don't quote me on that of course. Rival 2 and Whitney I would say are weighed a bit more heavily because of how difficult they are a bit more. Even then, tests are tests, logs are logs. It has a few fights against it but even then, it's perfectly fine for A with the negatives.
No
Gastly can not just beat Bugsy, it straight up disrespects him.
Gastly's typing make this a blissful matchup for a nuzlocke. Realistically, only 2 moves can actually damage it. Kakuna's Poison Sting, which is laughable enough without mentioning that it can't even poison Gastly, and Scyther's Fury Cutter, which is quad-resisted and starts off at 10BP not factoring STAB.
It's an embarrassing matchup... On the defensive end.
The problem, as usual with the Gastly phase, is actually getting it to damage things.
These are the moves Gastly may have at this point, on a best case scenario, I might add.
Realistically, whether or not a player did manage to reach level 16 in time depends a lot on patience, favoritism and team composition. Either way, this is painful. Gastly simply doesn't have a reliable way to deal 20 damage to most things up until it learns Night Shade at Lv. 21.
You may have many things to test post-Morty, but it's straight up agonizing to get Gastly to evolve in Johto. And no, Gengar is in no way comparable to Alakazam. The main reason is that Alakazam has Psychic STAB, which not only is incredibly valuable in this game, but also allows it to deal more damage than the elemental punches as soon as it gets Psybeam. The trade off is a much better defensive typing, which is nice, but ultimately not enough to be compared to possibly the best in-game mon ever.
A mon that is the anti-thesis of efficiency until level 25, despite the fact that people usually struggle to reach level 40 by the 8th gym just can't be reasonably accepted to A-tier. We're not even talking about it being only available on the mid-game onwards, it's actively detrimental until the mid-game.
Gastly against Bugsy is pretty straightforward. With Curse it can beat him, without Curse it can not.
Even if it will never be knocked out due to its typing, it needs Curse to kill all three of his Pokemon. Lick is not enough because you run out of PP around half of Scyther's HP. I tested this multiple times. Which means you need to use Curse at least twice, so 1 or 2 Potions are needed for this fight, hence why I rated it A-tier for this fight in my log.
That fight kind of illustrates why I think Gastly (Trade) should be in B. If Gastly didn't have a slow early game, I would actually think of Gengar as a bottom of S Pokemon. It is really good. But its early game knocks it down one tier for me and also the fact just how much EXP you have to put into it for it to do its job. Gengar really needs to be at least the level cap, often a few levels higher to get some important KOs. Against some Pokemon it just can not afford to miss the KO or its performance goes down significantly. Either because it needs more items then, or because it straightup gets KOed (see againt Will). Gengar is an A-Pokemon if you do a solo run or have a very small team. But even if you have like 4 Pokemon that acutally fight, it is kind of hard to maintain the level advantage for Gengar to constantly do well. The roll could change simply because you got a Gastly with bad IVs. In my experience it is that close. So while I think the ceiling of Gengar is A-tier, on average it should be a B-tier Pokemon imo.
But this is just me talking, and since Gastly (Trade) already has 2 A-tier nominations, it will end up in A-tier later anyway. So we can kind of drop that topic until someone else wants to do a Gengar run. I would rather be interested on discussion of the other Pokemon I did a run with.
Good lord
Just to wrap it up, Gengar should have an S-Tier performance to clinch an A-Tier nomination post-evolution. Judging by your logs, it does not, especially on the Elite Four.
The Bruno logs make its issues very clear.
Gengar is immune to Fighting, so in theory, it shouldn't be having defensive issues. However, since it's only scoring 2/3HKOs, the damage from their coverage moves racks up. It outright has a bad matchup against Machamp since it can only 4HKO it, and needs 2 Hyper Potions because it's taking too much damage from Rock Slide.
Will and Karen straight up fold it due to being obviously bad matchups through typing alone, and it only 2HKOs Lance's mons unless it's at like, Lv. 45 which is just entirely unreasonable in Johto. Its poor bulk also ensures a sweep is not possible, so that's like, one or two mons at most before getting packed up, which plenty of other mons can do as well.
Gengar is easily the most overrated mon in GSC. Matter of fact, there's a perfect comparison to it.
Y'all remember Electivire?
I can agree with that. The encounter issue makes it fitting for C, but needing Dig makes it complicated since it's such a highly-contested TM. In my opinion, anything that *needs* Dig must at least be able to 1v1 Miltank since Dig is the most reliable way of dodging Rollout. Otherwise, it needs to be dropped a tier. I'm not sure if Dunsparce can pull it off without Strength though, and Return is kind of a stretch to have at this point.
That's really unfortunate. There are a lot of Water-types in GSC, especially after Surf, so this pretty much ensures it's a C-Tier. If only the Water Stone was easier to obtain, it could've been a solid A/B-tier. Oh well.
Having used Gengar, I'll try to explain why I feel it deserves A-tier.
Looking at my logs, Gastly didn't struggle against Bugsy. Yes, it ned Curse but I feel that getting to level 16 for Bugsy is alright, especially considering the Med Slow leveling group. While Whitney is by no mean good, Gastly is at least able to Curse + Hypnosis the Miltank. Morty is fairly good as Gengar should be able to take down Gastly and both Haunter.
After Morty, Gengar performs as a slightly worse Kadabra. It easily wins against Gym 5/6/7, taking an Iron Tail against Jasmine's Steelix even at level 31. While it can't take down Claire's Kingdra, Gengar is able to OHKO the 3 Dragonair at level 38. The E4 is great as Gengar beats 4/5 mons against Will, defeats Koga, Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan/Onix against Bruno, Murkrow/Vileplume/Gengar against Karen and up to 5 mons against Lance.
Really, Gengar felt great when I was using it. Kadabra and Gengar had overall the same struggles (Claire's Kingdra and Karen). Kadabra is a bit better as it defeats Whitney, Morty and Bruno at the cost of losing to Jasmine's Steelix and having it one tier above Gengar would make sense.
Reading pe5e's logs, I feel the difference comes down to the difference of level, the held item as well as evolving Haunter earlier (and maybe DVs). Gengar has some uses against Morty, wins easily against Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce (The performance was really S-tier against the two latter, not B-tier). With NeverMeltIce and level 38, the 3 Dragonair were OHKOed by Ice Punch, making the matchup much better. As for Will, level 40 and NMI seems enough to OHKO both Xatus, making the matchup so much better. As for Lance, level 39 seems too low for it. Gengar performs well against the E4 and as such it should definitely be above level 40 for the champion fight. At a decent level (42 at least), Gengar should be able to at least defeat the 3 Dragonite as well as Gyarados and possibly Charizard. I think Gengar wasn't used to its full potential, explaing the difference in ranking.
As for other noms, I totally agree (I think D-tier is more adequate for Exeggcute but C-tier is fine too).
Looking at my logs, Gastly didn't struggle against Bugsy. Yes, it ned Curse but I feel that getting to level 16 for Bugsy is alright, especially considering the Med Slow leveling group. While Whitney is by no mean good, Gastly is at least able to Curse + Hypnosis the Miltank. Morty is fairly good as Gengar should be able to take down Gastly and both Haunter.
After Morty, Gengar performs as a slightly worse Kadabra. It easily wins against Gym 5/6/7, taking an Iron Tail against Jasmine's Steelix even at level 31. While it can't take down Claire's Kingdra, Gengar is able to OHKO the 3 Dragonair at level 38. The E4 is great as Gengar beats 4/5 mons against Will, defeats Koga, Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan/Onix against Bruno, Murkrow/Vileplume/Gengar against Karen and up to 5 mons against Lance.
Really, Gengar felt great when I was using it. Kadabra and Gengar had overall the same struggles (Claire's Kingdra and Karen). Kadabra is a bit better as it defeats Whitney, Morty and Bruno at the cost of losing to Jasmine's Steelix and having it one tier above Gengar would make sense.
Reading pe5e's logs, I feel the difference comes down to the difference of level, the held item as well as evolving Haunter earlier (and maybe DVs). Gengar has some uses against Morty, wins easily against Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce (The performance was really S-tier against the two latter, not B-tier). With NeverMeltIce and level 38, the 3 Dragonair were OHKOed by Ice Punch, making the matchup much better. As for Will, level 40 and NMI seems enough to OHKO both Xatus, making the matchup so much better. As for Lance, level 39 seems too low for it. Gengar performs well against the E4 and as such it should definitely be above level 40 for the champion fight. At a decent level (42 at least), Gengar should be able to at least defeat the 3 Dragonite as well as Gyarados and possibly Charizard. I think Gengar wasn't used to its full potential, explaing the difference in ranking.
As for other noms, I totally agree (I think D-tier is more adequate for Exeggcute but C-tier is fine too).
I totally agree that this is the reason for the difference in ranking.
The Gengar in your run was often 3-5 levels higher in the late game, which makes a big difference.
My lower level Gengar had missed some really important KOs.
- Clair's Dragonairs were barely not OHKOed from level 37 Gengar, even with Never-Melt Ice. Either I had some bad IVs or the roll really is that close. And of course if you miss the KO, the matchup becomes a lot worse.
- Missed several OHKOs against Will with my level 39 Gengar, even with Never-Melt Ice. And the consequence for missing that range is death. On nearly every single one of his Pokemon.
- Missed the OHKO on Lance's Gyarados and its Dragonites with my level 39 Gengar, even with Never-Melt Ice. Missing the range here is also really bad because Gengar needs its HP for Aero and Charizard. Being a full 5 levels higher makes a big difference here of course.
since IVs were mentioned, idk how relevant it is, but I don't think IVs really impact anything's performance meaningfully, if my experience with some of the Odd Egg Pokemon is anything to go by. In particular, I remember once using the Odd Egg Jynx and Magmar and their offensive results didn't seem any different from their counterparts. The only difference I think I even noticed was that they occassionally took slightly more damage, so things like close KOs were more likely to be OHKOs. So idk if IV spread will cause much of an impact here.
Levels are a different story, though. I personally never struggled to make it to the 40s by the League and then using 2-3 candies per member to round them off. For transparency sake, almost all of my runs have been with four Pokemon and the amount of trainers fought depended mostly on my team structure (teams with slow-leveling Pokemon and teams where I obtained a lot of things at the same time would obviously require me to beat more trainers) and all of these have been done every run, so it's not like I am favorizing anything here.
Another thing I just remembered was that certain level thresholds boosted the damage output more than other thresholds due to how the damage formula takes the attacker's level into account. I am wondering if level 38 is one of those. Unfortunately, I am not really knowledgeable about this particular mechanic, so if someone smarter than me knows, feel free to chime in.
Levels are a different story, though. I personally never struggled to make it to the 40s by the League and then using 2-3 candies per member to round them off. For transparency sake, almost all of my runs have been with four Pokemon and the amount of trainers fought depended mostly on my team structure (teams with slow-leveling Pokemon and teams where I obtained a lot of things at the same time would obviously require me to beat more trainers) and all of these have been done every run, so it's not like I am favorizing anything here.
Another thing I just remembered was that certain level thresholds boosted the damage output more than other thresholds due to how the damage formula takes the attacker's level into account. I am wondering if level 38 is one of those. Unfortunately, I am not really knowledgeable about this particular mechanic, so if someone smarter than me knows, feel free to chime in.
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Reaching those levels isn't too difficult. As Ryota stated, we did use Candies to help out with ranges and the like. We also established a long time ago that 4 mons was pretty much the limit you could use in testing because how XP was such a high value commodity. So going 5 or changing out Pokemon tends to cause issues as a whole. I'll probably sneak in a Gengar test to see to refresh myself however.
I would also argue that the timing of when pe5e added their Pokemon to the team possibly also influenced things. Assuming Zubat/Golbat (which wasn't formally tested in that run) was added later on and not when it first becomes available in Dark Cave, the team does front-load its experience needs a bit early with 3 Pokemon before the first gym, one of which is in the less efficient Medium-Fast group, and then Exeggcute comes in after Azalea and is gobbling up experience for a large part of the run as well due to being in the Slow group. So the team's experience needs are being spread quite thin fairly early as is, and then Crobat (Medium-Fast) and eventually Suicune (Slow) come in and exacerbate things even more. It's understandable that the final levels of that team would seem a little bit low compared to other runs by the time the run reaches Lance, and I did find that to be the case myself when I was doing my more informal, non-logged testing of things back in the previous threads (I remember trying to organise my runs in a way that avoided this problem as much as I could by grouping things on rough availability and pairing things with different acquisition times). I don't think it's necessarily wrong to test in this way (i.e. with a full team) and it is convenient to be able to test more things at once to save time (I hope this doesn't read as a criticism pe5e hehe), but it is important to keep that in mind when assessing things like logs and extrapolate how a Pokemon might have performed on a more optimal team in a "real" run.
In regards to Clair specifically, if the level 37/38 split is indeed the difference maker for Gengar being able to OHKO Clair's Dragonair or failing and taking paralysis...well, that run added a Suicune at the end and gave that thing enough experience to get to level 41 before the Clair battle, experience that could have gone to Gengar instead to reach the level required for the range, so it seems that it's not unreasonable for Gengar to be able to reach the required level in most playthroughs.
Personally I think where Gengar ends up on the list mostly comes down to how much you want to penalise it for it's early game, which is obviously a subjective judgment that logs can't really prove or disprove. Its performance after it evolves is great and frankly it's likely to be your most powerful Pokemon for most teams, but it does require a bit of effort to get there - Gastly is mostly carried early on by its defensive typing and Curse being a funny check-mate option in some important match-ups, but having to constantly turn to team mates to deal with other things in the meantime because your low-damage/low-PP Lick is your only conventional attacking option is so annoying, and that might slow you down a bit compared to other early-game stuff that might lack a Curse-like trump card against Bugsy's Scyther or similar but can just attack other things more conventionally. But it does level up fairly quickly compare to some of the other early-game Pokemon which lessens the aggravation of it all, and the game does provide plenty of viable choices to use alongside Gastly to support it during this phase so it's not like it needs a super-specific team to work, and it can actually afford to be selective in what it fights as long as you're mindful to take advantage of its good points when you can. And again, Gengar with elemental punches can trivialise a lot of match-ups later on so the reward for the effort of grinding Gastly is there. It's not like we're dealing with Togepi here!
In regards to Clair specifically, if the level 37/38 split is indeed the difference maker for Gengar being able to OHKO Clair's Dragonair or failing and taking paralysis...well, that run added a Suicune at the end and gave that thing enough experience to get to level 41 before the Clair battle, experience that could have gone to Gengar instead to reach the level required for the range, so it seems that it's not unreasonable for Gengar to be able to reach the required level in most playthroughs.
Personally I think where Gengar ends up on the list mostly comes down to how much you want to penalise it for it's early game, which is obviously a subjective judgment that logs can't really prove or disprove. Its performance after it evolves is great and frankly it's likely to be your most powerful Pokemon for most teams, but it does require a bit of effort to get there - Gastly is mostly carried early on by its defensive typing and Curse being a funny check-mate option in some important match-ups, but having to constantly turn to team mates to deal with other things in the meantime because your low-damage/low-PP Lick is your only conventional attacking option is so annoying, and that might slow you down a bit compared to other early-game stuff that might lack a Curse-like trump card against Bugsy's Scyther or similar but can just attack other things more conventionally. But it does level up fairly quickly compare to some of the other early-game Pokemon which lessens the aggravation of it all, and the game does provide plenty of viable choices to use alongside Gastly to support it during this phase so it's not like it needs a super-specific team to work, and it can actually afford to be selective in what it fights as long as you're mindful to take advantage of its good points when you can. And again, Gengar with elemental punches can trivialise a lot of match-ups later on so the reward for the effort of grinding Gastly is there. It's not like we're dealing with Togepi here!
Pretty much. The main arguments can be pointed at one major fact. The Early Game. The first few matchups though I, personally, would not weigh them too much. Falkner is a joke, Bugsy you just outright resist his main threat on Scyther. I would probably say Whitney is the best time to really start gauging Gastly but at that point, you'll have it pretty close to Haunter/Gengar afterwards. Of course, have levels at the points discussed helps out a lot as well.
That's... a pretty tight line to walk on, don't you think?
Gengar needs so many things to go right when it comes to levels that it's a bit restrictive, this might be the first time I've ever seen this kind of consensus. Aren't A-Tiers supposed to be kind of splashable? Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, but this is Johto, and XP is at a premium.
There's a very real chance that those levels just won't be there depending on your team composition and playstyle. I can see people who don't go out of their way to beat every trainer finding their Gengar severely lacking.
I dunno, I'm not sold. Do you guys usually get to match levels with leaders without too much trouble? An average level should help us figure out if Gengar can reach those pivotal numbers reliably.
Gengar needs so many things to go right when it comes to levels that it's a bit restrictive, this might be the first time I've ever seen this kind of consensus. Aren't A-Tiers supposed to be kind of splashable? Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, but this is Johto, and XP is at a premium.
There's a very real chance that those levels just won't be there depending on your team composition and playstyle. I can see people who don't go out of their way to beat every trainer finding their Gengar severely lacking.
I dunno, I'm not sold. Do you guys usually get to match levels with leaders without too much trouble? An average level should help us figure out if Gengar can reach those pivotal numbers reliably.
Around Chuck is when levels start to become an issue as trainer levels start trailing behind and as such, the XP we could get stops coming in. Overall the end game levels we mostly hit were entering 40 or at 40. So it's not really unfeasible to get to those levels. You just have to fight pretty much every encounter and spread out the XP among your team as well in a unbiased and unfavored way, making sure every Mon is getting a healthy chunk.
Personally I do think most folks here are placing too much emphasis on Gastly's early game performance. We aren't talking about Karp or Cool here after all. That performance, as I have said, is why it isn't eligible for S at all and the need to be level 25. I'm not saying to ignore those performances but you have much more of the game to go through that those will be what you should be paying attention more to as you have Gengar there. This is why I am going to get a test in with it. To see both sides of the B and A arguments and offer a more informed and renewed opinion in my perspective since it's been some time since I have used Gengar.
Honestly, what really got me curious is whether or not Gengar's performance after evolution warrants all the hype. We all agree that Gastly's early-game is so bad it warrants dropping a tier.
It's been a while since I last ran vanilla Crystal, but I do remember the level curve turning into mush after Morty. Getting on par with Chuck should be feasible enough, but I dunno about Jasmine.
Clair and the E4 are the biggest deal for me since those ranges are the most pivotal ones in both performance and difficulty. If Gengar fails to deliver on the hardest matchups in the game, what's the point of going over such a terrible period?
That's a fair point yeah. Chuck you can reasonably be matching his level or getting close to. Jasmine being 5 over Chuck isn't something you can catch up to at all in how the lists test. So you typically have to depend on Held Item + SE moves to deal with Steelix. But after, it's been explained if you are level 38 and 39 at Clair with NMI and Ice Punch, you take out all the Nairs with relative ease. The problem I think some have is that Gengar being at those levels at Clair may be unfeasible/unreasonable/require specific things. Hence why I am going to do a test on it with 3 others to see how the XP is best doled out for it, how restrictive it is (if at all), etc.
I can confirm that reaching level 35 for Jasmine is indeed not feasible in "standard" play. For Gengar to win against Jasmine, the only condition to be cleared is "survive one Iron Tail". My experience tells me that Gengar typically lives one. The only way to even lose the fight is if Iron Tail crits, but seeing as it can also miss and that Fire Punch can also crit or maybe even burn, I'd call this scenario extremely unlikely.
(Gengar one-shots the Magnemite, so they are not relevant)
(Gengar one-shots the Magnemite, so they are not relevant)