GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

Just wanted to ask if you have picked up Return already for your eventual Pidgeot? I know you'll need it coming up here soon as Fly/Wing Attack won't be hitting much SE at this point, leaving Return as your primary method of attack. Overall, good data on these mons! Keep up the good work and offering your time to testing!
I will have to reset my clock but after Goldenrod Rocket I will probably pick it up since the rockets are a complete joke. Might need to go hunt down the trainers I skipped to stay around the gym leaders levels to try and get blizzard for Clair cause icy wind is weaksauce.
 
I will have to reset my clock but after Goldenrod Rocket I will probably pick it up since the rockets are a complete joke. Might need to go hunt down the trainers I skipped to stay around the gym leaders levels to try and get blizzard for Clair cause icy wind is weaksauce.
Don't worry about trying to level match with the jump. Most testers end up with teams just entering the 40s overall due to the extreme lack of good XP in Johto. As long as you are getting ready to enter the 40s by Clair (About 37-38) you should be good. If you do grind on Wild Pokemon, be transparent about it.

A good example of this is here.
 
Time for thoughts on Clair before I head to the elite 4.
Graveler is level 37. First dragonair outspeeds and 1shots with surf. Loses to thunderbolt dragonair due to being outsped from dragonbreath. For refrence you 3HKO with dig and the dragonair does the same plus the chance for paralysis. Awful matchup.
Pidgeot is level 38. Return is 2HKO on all the dragonair. Can tank a thunderbolt and icebeam from each dragonair. Will lose to Kingdra because get hit by thunderwave twice. Decent overall matchup.
Starmie is level 38. Blizzard is a 1HKO on the Dragonair. Rain Dance into Thunder loses to Kingdra due to being a 3HKO that she will heal becoming a 5HKO. Starmie does tank hyper beam to a little over half. It will swap to surf which kills you in 2 more hits. You also out-speed everything. Pretty good matchup.
Jynx is level 36. Ice punch 1HKO the dragonair and 3HKO the Kingdra without the nevermeltice. You also outspeed everything. You can win with Lovely Kiss. Pretty good matchup.
Graveler is nearly deadweight at this point and needs to be used to 1v1 specific pokemon, otherwise he gets either 1shot or worn down by status.
Pidgeot seems to be slightly better but does not seem to be sweep teams so used similar to Graveler but with better bulk and speed. Pidgeotto phase is pretty meh though.
Starmie is still good but finally found it’s match in Kingdra. Shame it needs such expensive tms to be so strong.
Jynx does only 2 things, be a fast sleeper and Ice stab spammer. Good here but nervous about some of the elite four since she has no coverage whatsoever. Next post will be on the elite four and my opinion where they should be placed based off my experience.
 
Time for my final thoughts. Here is the Elite Four. Levels before I started were Graveler at 39, Jynx, Starmie and Pidgeot at 40.
Graveler potentially 2Shots Xatu with rollout. He either starts with confuse ray or Psychic. He also is faster and 2shots with Psychic. I did not test anymore than this cause Xatu has the weakest Psychic here and only Jynx may be 1shotable but I have my doubts. Terrible matchup.
Pidgeot 2HKO Xatu, 1HKO Jynx and 4HKO Slowbro after curses with return. Is 3shotted by Psychic. Outspeeds everything. 2HKO on Executor with Fly. Decent 1v1 of everything except the Slowbro. Decent matchup overall.
Starmie after setting up rain dance 1HKO the Xatu with Thunder, the Executor with Blizzard, and 2HKO the Jynx with Surf. Slowbro is a 2HKO with thunder. Good matchup overall.
Jynx 1Shots the Xatu with Ice Punch plus nevermelt ice. Can beat Jynx with Lovely Kiss and mine had hidden power bug which range for 2HKO. Loses to Slowbro. 1HKO the Executor with Ice punch. Outspeeds everything. Good matchup overall.
Graveler after defense curl is 2HKO on Ariados who you outspeed. He will 2HKO with Giga drain. Can sweep if sent against the foretress with no evades since it does like 5 damage with swift. Will be outsped for most of it so have to hit through evade spam. Pretty decent matchup overall, but kinda luck based.
Pidgeot 2HKO with Fly plus swift against Ariados. Fly was about a 5HKO on the foretress who will blow up on you if you lose a little health. You can evade that with fly and get free kill. 1HKO against Venomoth with Fly.
Starmie sets up rain dance 1HKO Ariados, 2HKO Foretress, Venomoth, and Crobat with Surf. Muk is 3HKO without rain. Sludge is 3HKO with Muk. Outspeed nearly everything with speed tie with Crobat. Pretty good matchup overall.
Jynx 2HKO the Ariados plus venomoth, 3HKO on the fortress and muk with Ice punch. Muk or Foretress will end run since explosion is 1HKO and Muk 2HKO with Sludge after obligatory evasion bullshit. Decent matchup overall.
Graveler 1HKO hitmontop who goes for dig with earthquake. 2HKO versus the Hitmonlee who 2HKO with double kick while outspeeding. 2HKO on Onyx with Earthquake with Onyx doing same while outspeeding. Pretty bad matchup overall.
Pidgeot 2HKO the Hitmontop with return since he alternates between quick attack and detect if you try for fly. Onyx is 4HKO with return while 3HKO back with rockslide. Can 2HKO the Machamp with Fly and can live 1 Rockslide with 37 HP. 1HKO on Hitmonlee. Good matchup overall.
Starmie will 3HKO with Surf without rain but Hitmontop will use dig which does 20 damage so easy setup for rain dance there. Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are also 2HKO with surf and their attacks barely do anything. Onyx is OHKO with surf while Machamp is 3HKO with surf without rain while cross chop if crit kills if over half health while without crit does around 30 damage. Gold berry can make Sweep happen as long as they don’t crit. Good matchup overall.
Jynx 2HKO versus Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, and Hitmonchan, 1HKO versus Onyx and 3HKO versus Machamp. Dig plus 2 mach punches leaves you with 11 HP out of 120. Need Lovely Kiss to land and Machamp and Hitmonlee to stay asleep. Decent to good matchup.
Graveler 4HKO with earthquake while 3HKO with faint attack. Can win but most likely wont due to being slower combined with sand attack and confuse ray. Outsped and 1shot by Vileplume. 1HKO the gengar while lick does nothing. Decent matchup.
Pidgeot range of 3HKO or 4HKO the Umbreon with Return and faint attack does 26 damage out of 132 HP. 2HKO on the houndoom with return while ouspeeding but 2HKO from the Houndoom with Flamethrower. Fly is 3HKO on the Gengar, 2 with Curse. 2HKO on vileplume with fly while petal dance does around 15 damage. Good matchup overall.
Starmie 3HKO on Umbreon with rain boosted surf. Thunder is 1HKO on the Murkrow. Can survive a faint attack from Murkrow but not Houndoom. Blizzard is 2HKO on the Vileplume, same with surf on Houndoom. Can survive 1 Crunch from full HP. Decent to good matchup overall.
Jynx is a 4HKO on Umbreon with Ice punch. 1HKO on the Vileplume with Ice punch. 3HKO by petal dance. Decent matchup overall.
Graveler gets outsped and 1shot by surf from Gyarados. 2HKO on the Aerodactyl with Rollout while Aerodactyl does nothing back. Can 1Shot charizard is rollout doesn’t miss but will get 2HKO with flamethrower. Get 3HKO with twister which flinched it to death so couldn’t even see how much damage rollout did. At best ok but more bad matchup.
Pidgeot Pidgeot 3HKO Gyarados with return while survivng a high power flail. 3HKO versus thunder dragonite with Return. 3HKO with return on Charizard while 2HKO back with flamethrower. Pretty bad matchup.
Starmie 1HKO with Thunder and Blizzard on the Gyarados and all the Dragonite. Surf without rain is 2HKO on Charizard. Survives a Hyper beam at half health from Charizard. Takes a little over half from 50 Dragonite outrage. Only outsped by Aerodactyl who you can survive Hyper beam from 2/3 health. Can also survive hyper beam with over 2/3 health from Gyarados. If you don’t miss flawless matchup. If you do it is still very good.
Jynx 3HKO Gyarados with Ice punch and survives a Hyper Beam. 3HKO on Charizard with Ice punch. 1HKO on dragonite while outspeeding everything except Aerodactyl who 1shots with rockslide.Pretty good matchup.
Graveler has great matchups early on but by endgame his lack of speed and bulk specially makes even fights he should in theory win impractical in practice. C tier for me since it can contribute against the elite 4 but only against very specific pokemon.
Pidgeot starts pretty good then becomes borderline useless in Gyms while a Pidgeotto then picks up to being a 1v1 killer in the league as a Pidgeot. C tier for him.
Starmie with investment feels at least A tier but that investment is pretty costly. Useful through the entire game with barely any bad matchups at all. At least B tier for me.
Jynx is somewhere between B and C tier due to her complete lack of coverage made up slightly for with her sleep move letting her potentially win neutral matchups but is mildly lucky. She does trivialize Lance’s Dragonites since she 1 shots and outspeeds all of them. You will have to switch out alot since Aerodactyl and Charizard stop the sweep hard.
So what pokemon do you want me to test next?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
for Jynx, one of its strongest points is just how easily it crushes some of the most difficult opponents, like Clair, Will, and Lance. For Will, you may be able to 1v1 his own Jynx with Shadow Ball if you can spare the TM (in my case, it was an OHKO). Bruno seems to be its only bad matchup and it tends to be decent elsewhere. It doesn't have much coverage, but it honestly doesn't need it that much. And I don't think you have to sweep to have a great matchup, but that's a matter of tiering philosophy.

I did suggest C-tier as a possible tier, but that was based entirely off the availability. Jynx is probably better than all of the Legendary Pokemon you can obtain for the purposes of this list

for Graveler, I'd say C *might* be a bit too harsh but I agree at this point that Geodude as a whole needs to drop from A to B-tier, as it noticeably drop off after Morty. I'd say Graveler and Golem should be the same tier, since they perform very similarly if not the same.

So what pokemon do you want me to test next?
not Turdterra, so take this only as a suggestion, but Poliwrath can probably see some extra testing since it's borderline B / C. Note that it's available in Crystal only, since no Water Stone from Pokegear in GS. Stantler could also see some more testing, since some people said C, other said B on it.
 
for Jynx, one of its strongest points is just how easily it crushes some of the most difficult opponents, like Clair, Will, and Lance. For Will, you may be able to 1v1 his own Jynx with Shadow Ball if you can spare the TM (in my case, it was an OHKO). Bruno seems to be its only bad matchup and it tends to be decent elsewhere. It doesn't have much coverage, but it honestly doesn't need it that much. And I don't think you have to sweep to have a great matchup, but that's a matter of tiering philosophy.

I did suggest C-tier as a possible tier, but that was based entirely off the availability. Jynx is probably better than all of the Legendary Pokemon you can obtain for the purposes of this list

for Graveler, I'd say C *might* be a bit too harsh but I agree at this point that Geodude as a whole needs to drop from A to B-tier, as it noticeably drop off after Morty. I'd say Graveler and Golem should be the same tier, since they perform very similarly if not the same.


not Turdterra, so take this only as a suggestion, but Poliwrath can probably see some extra testing since it's borderline B / C. Note that it's available in Crystal only, since no Water Stone from Pokegear in GS. Stantler could also see some more testing, since some people said C, other said B on it.
The problem with Graveler is that after being very underwhelming after Morty for the gyms, it is borderline useless against the elite four with the bane of his existence being practically everywhere, which are status, special hits in general and super effective attacks. Will has confusion and Psychic which mauls him and he is too slow and has too weak stab to kill much. Koga is the best if you bring him on foretress but his rampage relies on rollout against someone who spams evasion and has toxic to take him down. Bruno is Bruno. Karen only good one is gengar and everything else either annoys or mauls him with special attacks. Lance, the only reliable one is Aerodactyl cause Charizard 2 shots him with flamethrower and I am using set so he is going to take a hit unless I suicide another mon. Even the Dragonite with Thunder is dangerous cause twister is a 3HKO and can flinch you to death.
I do see your point about Jynx. I will say that the grind to level her up wasn’t the worst, but not too great either. I was relying on sweeping since that was the easiest way to tell if the pokemon performed good, but I can be more nuanced. Jynx is probably A tier good but availability and being under leveled is a pain.
Might go with a team of Poliwrath, Stantler, Sentret, and Skarmory to see how bad it is.
 
Ok early game poliwag and sentret suck ass. Bubble is weak as shit and Sentret is basically geodude tier speed without good attack or defenses. Can’t even grind in sprout tower without wanting to kill myself. I finally got Poliwag to 10 off trainers outside sprout tower, but sentret can barely beat 1 bellsprout let alone 3.
 
The problem with Graveler is that after being very underwhelming after Morty for the gyms, it is borderline useless against the elite four with the bane of his existence being practically everywhere, which are status, special hits in general and super effective attacks. Will has confusion and Psychic which mauls him and he is too slow and has too weak stab to kill much. Koga is the best if you bring him on foretress but his rampage relies on rollout against someone who spams evasion and has toxic to take him down. Bruno is Bruno. Karen only good one is gengar and everything else either annoys or mauls him with special attacks. Lance, the only reliable one is Aerodactyl cause Charizard 2 shots him with flamethrower and I am using set so he is going to take a hit unless I suicide another mon. Even the Dragonite with Thunder is dangerous cause twister is a 3HKO and can flinch you to death.
I do see your point about Jynx. I will say that the grind to level her up wasn’t the worst, but not too great either. I was relying on sweeping since that was the easiest way to tell if the pokemon performed good, but I can be more nuanced. Jynx is probably A tier good but availability and being under leveled is a pain.
Might go with a team of Poliwrath, Stantler, Sentret, and Skarmory to see how bad it is.
The thing about Graveler is that, while Will and Bruno are pretty bad (you might get one KO at most in both, and losing to Onix is just dumb), Koga you can beat four mons if you avoid Veno, Karen you OHKO Gengar and Houndoom since you live one Crunch and against Lance you can beat both Aero and Zard, 2HKOing and OHKOing with Rock Throw—which you seem to have deleted. Granted in Set that's more annoying but from experience Lance generally sends the three Dnite in a row so you can beat those two last. Another point in its favor is getting Earthquake via level up unlike C-tiers Nidos, Sandslash, and Donphan, meaning you can save the TM for something else.
Basically it's amazing early-game coupled with those one-on-ones are enough to offset its terrible midgame IMO, meaning B-tier is fine for it.

Also re: Poli, my advice would be to skip the early one and just fish it later. If you want to you can get it at level 10 with the Old Rod after Falkner (comes right before Union Cave where it can train easily) but it's prolly better to get it at level 20 with a Good Rod. You can then immediately teach it Surf and, once it gets Rain Dance and evolves, have it perform solidly against Morty. Only issue is weaker Return, really.
 
The thing about Graveler is that, while Will and Bruno are pretty bad (you might get one KO at most in both, and losing to Onix is just dumb), Koga you can beat four mons if you avoid Veno, Karen you OHKO Gengar and Houndoom since you live one Crunch and against Lance you can beat both Aero and Zard, 2HKOing and OHKOing with Rock Throw—which you seem to have deleted. Granted in Set that's more annoying but from experience Lance generally sends the three Dnite in a row so you can beat those two last. Another point in its favor is getting Earthquake via level up unlike C-tiers Nidos, Sandslash, and Donphan, meaning you can save the TM for something else.
Basically it's amazing early-game coupled with those one-on-ones are enough to offset its terrible midgame IMO, meaning B-tier is fine for it.

Also re: Poli, my advice would be to skip the early one and just fish it later. If you want to you can get it at level 10 with the Old Rod after Falkner (comes right before Union Cave where it can train easily) but it's prolly better to get it at level 20 with a Good Rod. You can then immediately teach it Surf and, once it gets Rain Dance and evolves, have it perform solidly against Morty. Only issue is weaker Return, really.
In mine Lance was smart enough to send in Charizard always after a dragonite was dealt with by Jynx which granted Starmie handles easily but Graveler could never switch in with set since he has to eat a flamethrower which takes over half with the resist. Similar problem happened with Karen and switching into Houndoom. He will be better with standard over set, but with set like I had he is too fragile to switch in on anything but physical resists and electric attacks. He even lost to the Dragonite carrying thunder cause of flinch spam. He may be better than I am giving credit for, but to me he is too frail and slow for the elite 4.
I will continue with early poliwag cause I normally think a casual unless they have experience with a mon will try to get it as soon as possible. Though I will note in my final thoughts about that method.
 
Here are the first 3 gyms for the new team.
Poliwag at level 11 needs hypnosis strats cause the pidgey is a 5HKO with bubble and pidgey does 5 damage with tackle and mine had 31 HP. The pidgeotto is a 7HKO while it does 8 damage with gust. You do outspeed. Merely decent matchup cause of luck involving hypnosis.
Sentret at level 11 is a range between 2HKO and 3HKO on the pidgey and a 4HKO on the pidgeotto with quick attack. Pidgey does 5 damage with tackle and the pidgeotto does 8 with gust. If you get range on pidgey you should win. Otherwise use defense curl to lower damage. Decent matchup.
Poliwag at level 15 is a 3HKO on Kakuna and Metapod. Hypnosis is needed to disrupt fury cutter but will probably lose cause water gun is a 6HKO. Ok matchup only because hypnosis is broken.
Furret at level 15 range to 3HKO metapod and kakuna with quick attack after harden. 5HKO on the Scyther. Need either defense curl setup or weakened by Poliwag. Ok matchup.
Poliwag at level 16 is a 3HKO with water gun against Gastly and 4HKO against Zubat. Range of 3HKO to 4HKO on quilava with water gun. Decent matchup.
Furret at level 16 2HKO gastly with mudslap, 2HKO with quick attack on zubat, and 4HKO on the quilava with quick attack. Pretty good matchup.
Poliwag at level 20 3HKO the clefairy with headbutt compared to 4HKO with water gun. Milktank outspeeds and 2HKO with stomp. Unless you get lucky with Hypnosis you are not winning. Terrible matchup.
Furret uses a defense curl and 2HKO both the Clefairy and Milktank with rollout and has dig to disrupt Whitney's rollout if your chain stops. Can survive 2 rollouts even when the second critted. Good matchup overall.
Poliwag is really bad at fighting almost anything besides geodude and onyx before Goldenrod. You can win fights you shouldn't with hypnosis spam but it is really luck based. If you want the line, wait until before the fourth gym for surf.
Sentret is difficult to level if you are an idiot like me and try to grind on the bellsprout tower. I presume that the caterpie would be easier to defeat to get over it's initial hurdle of being slow and not that strong or durable. It gets better with quick attack and noticable improvement once evolved. Headbutt, rollout and dig gives good coverage for now and it is fast enough and strong enough to get the job done.
Edit: Wow I fucked up with Stantler. The only move he learns to hit ghosts, rocks or steel types until the rocket hideout is mud slap. I taught that to Furret to let it beat the gastly of the rival fight. Good going me in screwing over Stantler.
 
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Well this popped off.

Let's get this sorted here.

Personally, I don't agree with Graveler and Golem being same tier. For obvious reasons, you are missing 25 Attack if you were Golem and various other stat. This isn't to say that I won't put it in C/B or share the tier with Graveler (I would need to test myself). Graveler is just significantly worse than Golem every tier list he is in (barring maybe 1 or 2) and is similiar to Machoke in this regard.

Poliwag is gonna suck early game. It won't be able to do anything until Poliwrath

I have no idea if any members have been added onto your team. Seeing as you are after Whitney, Stantler as Ryota suggested and maybe Magnemite if you feel up to that.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
for the record, here are my logs for Graveler and Golem:

Graveler

Falkner(11): Rock Throw OHKOs everything, only watch out for Mud-slap

Bugsy(17): Rock Throw spam wins, has to be obvious

Silver(18): beats Gastly and Zubat. Avoid Bayleef

Whitney(21): DCurl, then use Rollout, which will end the fight in like three turns if you don't miss whatsoever

Silver(23): beats everything but Bayleef

Morty(25): Magnitude should be able to OHKO everything, though Gengar probably requires a higher number. You are outsped by everything, so it comes down to Hypnosis missing

Chuck(31): Magnitude 6 2HKOs Primeape, with 9 OHKOing. Poliwrath is lol

Jasmine(31): beats Magnemite

Pryce(31): Icy Wind prevents you from doing much, beyond beating Seel, especially since Rollout isn't reliable here.

Silver(33): Rock Throw 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat. Magnitude covers Haunter and Magnemite. Avoid Meganium

Clair(38): Water / Ice coverage everywhere !!!

Silver(40): EQ OHKOs Magneton, Kadabra, and Haunter. Rock Throw 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat, though the latter is annoying with hax

Will(41): yeah no, you are outsped often and everything hits with special attacks. Don't bother

Koga(41): EQ OHKOs Muk. Rock Throw 2HKOs Ariados, watch out for Giga Drain. Against Forry, you can try to set up a Curlout, which will be able to kill everything if it never misses.

Bruno(41): even with DCurl to the max, you are beating only Hitmontop and Hitmonlee without resorting to healing, probably Onix too, if you keep Graveler off against Machamp and Hitmonchan

Karen(41): EQ OHKOs Houndoom and Gengar


Logs start from Morty since that's when you can have Geodude evolved

Morty(25): Magntiude 7 OHKOs Gengar and Magnitude 6 OHKOs the rest. They are all faster and Hypnosis is your only issue, but otherwise, good matchup

Chuck(30): 1v1s Primeape, but outright loses to Poliwrath

Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite, but loses to Steelix

Pryce(31): Hard Stone Rollout can sweep, but you rely on Piloswine missing Blizzard and you not missing whatsoever. If Blizzard hits, you die

Silver(33): beats everything but Meganium by OHKOng with appropriate STAB (Golbat is 2HKOed, but beyond hax, doesn't do much)

Clair(38): coverage everywhere, bad matchup

Silver(40): beats everything but Meganium, though Golbat's hax is very annoying

Will(41): Rollout is hard to pull off, as you are 3HKOed at worst by Psychic, while Rollout fails to KO Exeggutor

Koga(41): Hard Stone Rock Throw 2HKOs Ariados, which 2HKOs with Giga Drain, but goes for DTeam. Against Forry, try to build up Curlout constantly. At some point, you will succeed and then it's a matter of it missing or winning the game. Not the most reliable thing, though.

Bruno(42): EQ OHKOs Hitmontop while Digging and Hitmonlee, which 2HKOs with HJK. Heal against Hitmonchan after one EQ and finish it off. Machamp finishes you off, but you can 2HKO with EQ as a finish

Karen(42): EQ OHKOs Houndoom and Gengar (mine outsped Houndoom, somehowly) and Hard Stone Rock Throw OHKOs Murkrow. Note that Houndoom 2HKOs with Crunch

Lance(42): Curlout is hard to pull off as two of his Pokemon possess coverage and are faster. I didn't try this too much, as it would require a lot of work in order to dispatch of those two. It's still doable, though, maybe with X Items? All in all, bad matchup


now, they are obviously not identical, as Golem has a few extra KOs (like Pryce's Dewgong and Bruno's Hitmonchan), but they are very few and I am not sure if they are major enough to warrant a tier difference. With that said, this is only my experience with those and maybe others have found more places where Golem is significantly better than Graveler, but with those logs, it would be more than fair to just merge them.

===

as for early Poliwag vs later Poliwag, the best way to use it is probs to catch it as a level 20 Poliwag, which means you have to grind it only five levels (which is reasonable thanks to Med Slow growth rate and instant Surf if you fought the Kimono Girls already) for Rain Dance. Casuals may instinctly pick the earlier one, but keep in mind that write-ups exist to explain things like this; this wouldn't be the first time a list recommends a Pokemon to be caught later (see BW1 Purrloin), but in those cases, the write-up explains why the later variant is more efficient than the earlier one.

With that said, though, I don't think it matters too much in Poliwag's case when you catch it, since it's not that hard to maintain early on due to its Medium Slow growth rate. It matters more when it comes to Pokemon like Tentacool/Tentacruel that are genuinely bad early on and catching them at that point would be an active detriment to your team as a whole.
 
Well this popped off.

Let's get this sorted here.

Personally, I don't agree with Graveler and Golem being same tier. For obvious reasons, you are missing 25 Attack if you were Golem and various other stat. This isn't to say that I won't put it in C/B or share the tier with Graveler (I would need to test myself). Graveler is just significantly worse than Golem every tier list he is in (barring maybe 1 or 2) and is similiar to Machoke in this regard.

Poliwag is gonna suck early game. It won't be able to do anything until Poliwrath

I have no idea if any members have been added onto your team. Seeing as you are after Whitney, Stantler as Ryota suggested and maybe Magnemite if you feel up to that.
I have added Stantler and was planning to add Skarmory but magnemite works too. I am worried about using Stantler now since I gave mudslap to Furret to let it beat the rival’s gastly, so he is completely walled by rock, steel and Ghost types.
 
I have added Stantler and was planning to add Skarmory but magnemite works too. I am worried about using Stantler now since I gave mudslap to Furret to let it beat the rival’s gastly, so he is completely walled by rock, steel and Ghost types.
Only Jasmine would be an issue and at best you would deal with the Magnemites. The other two types don't show up until the very end of the game at the E4 and it's only one Mon (these being Onix and Gengar). For Hikers, yeah but they also kind of fall off the face of the region. You should be fine.
 
Only Jasmine would be an issue and at best you would deal with the Magnemites. The other two types don't show up until the very end of the game at the E4 and it's only one Mon (these being Onix and Gengar). For Hikers, yeah but they also kind of fall off the face of the region. You should be fine.
I was meaning more that I have him before Morty and now he can’t do anything to help at all besides Hypnosis and then switch to something else. He also learns earthquake so the elite four is not as bad.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Mud-slap is too weak to really win you matchups. Whenever you are using it, your logs are most likely going to look like "you can muscle through with Mud-slap if [x] misses often enough", since you are unlikely to OHKO anything, including Jasmine's Magnemite

I don't think you harmed Stantler too much by not giving it Mud-slap, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you
 
I have added Stantler and was planning to add Skarmory but magnemite works too. I am worried about using Stantler now since I gave mudslap to Furret to let it beat the rival’s gastly, so he is completely walled by rock, steel and Ghost types.
Morty: With Mud-Slap, Stantler (21lv) can 2HKO Gastly, 3HKO Haunter and 6HKO Gengar. Curse is guaranteed so some switching is mandatory. Dream Eater 2HKOs Stantler. Overall, it's not a bad fight if you teach the reindeer Mud Slap - it gets some kills and supports the team here.
Jasmine: Stantler (28lv) can 2HKO Magnemites but Mud Slap deals pitiful damage against Steelix. Magnemite's Thunderbolt 2HKOs back. Very RNG dependent battle at this level. At best, Stantler can beat both Magnemites and cripple Steelix. At worst, Stantler gets paralyzed and faints to the first Magnemite.

Bottom line, Mud Slap gives Stantler a fighting chance against those two.
 
Time for Morty through Jasmine.
Poliwrath at level 25 Surf 1HKO Gastly, Range on Haunter 1, 3HKO on Gengar who is only one besides second Haunter to outspeed, and 2HKO on final haunter. Setting up rain dance is easy to do and turns 2HKO into 1HKO and 3HKO to 2HKO. Can sweep with mint berry as long as Gengar doesn’t hit with 2 Hypnosis. Excellent matchup.
Furret at level 24 outspeeds everything except Gengar and 1HKO with dig while the Gengar is 2HKO. Need Hypnosis to miss once for sweep if you have the mint berry. Excellent matchup overall.
Stantler at level 23 does nothing but hypnosis and make some of his pokemon use curse since he did not have mudslap. Terrible matchup caused by my own idiocy.
Magnemite at level 25 is ousped by everything and has 2HKO on gastly, 3HK0 on haunter, and 4HKO on the Gengar with thundershock. Nightshade and dream eater are each around a 3HKO. Probably loses to Gengar but can thunder wave it to soften it for teamates. Good matchup overall.
Poliwrath at level 30 is a 2HKO with Surf on Primeape who outspeeds. The Poliwrath is a 4HKO with Strength. After a leer, non crit Karate Chop does 25 damage and Dynamic Punch does 56 damage. Can chance Hypnosis to increase odds. Decent Matchup overall.
Furret at level 30 outspeeds all of his pokemon and 2HKO on the Primeape while 3HKO on the Poliwrath with Return. Noncrit Karate is a 3HKO but Dynamic Punch is a 1HKO. Decent matchup overall due to cleanup for another teamate.
Stantler at level 30 outspeeds all of his pokemon and 2HKO the primape while 3HKO the Poliwrath with headbutt. Dynamic Punch is a 1HKO, so either go for hypnosis or accept that Stantler will be knocked out. Surprisingly decent matchup overall.
Magneton at level 30 outspeeds all of his pokemon and 1HKO with Thunder. You can survive a noncrit Karate chop with 40 to 42 out of 76 HP to setup rain dance. Flawless matchup.
Poliwrath is 2HKO on Seel, 3HKO on the Dewgong with strength while surf 2HKO the Piloswine. Aurora beam does around 24 HP. Good matchup overall.
Furret outspeeds everything unless slowed by icy wind. Return is 2HKO on Seel and Dewgong while Piloswine is a 3HKO. Defense curl into rollout can sweep whole team if it doesn't miss since their attacks except for blizzard do like 31 damage or less on a pokemon with 103 HP. Good matchup overall.
Stantler at level 31 is 2HKO on the seel, range of 2 to 3HKO on the dewgong, and a 3HKO on the piloswine with headbutt. Icy wind does about 9 damage, aurora beam around 22 damage, and blizzard if it hits is about 46 damage out of 96 HP. You outspeed everything and can put things to sleep with Hypnosis. I didn't bother, but getting max return probably makes it more consistent at the cost of possible flinches. Pretty solid matchup.
Magneton at level 32 1HKO the seel and dewgong with thunder, like a 9HKO on the Piloswine with hidden power since mine sucked by being hidden power ground. Probably better to use something like swift or return. Everything except a crit blizzard does basically nothing. Also outspeed everything. decent matchup overall except for the Piloswine.
Poliwrath at level 32 1HKO with rain boosted surf on everything while outspeeding everything. Usually magnemite uses thunder wave so with a held paralysis cure berry will fix that easily. When magnemite uses thunderbolt does around 2/3 HP so rain dance is near guarenteed to pull off. Flawless matchup.
Furret at level 31 outspeeds and 1HKO all the magnemite with dig. Steelix is a 6HKO with dig and take over half from iron tail. Surf if taught does a little over a third. It is really good at clearing out the magnemite and can finish off a weakened Steelix. Good matchup overall.
Stantler at level 31 is a 3HKO with headbutt on magnemite while 2HKO by thunderbolt. Didn't test against the Steelix but overall this is a terrible matchup.
Magneton at level 32 2HKO the magnemite with hidden power ground and 9HKO on the Steelix while taking 10 damage from iron tail. With the right hidden power it is decent, but without it is completely useless here. Awful matchup without good hidden power luck.
Poliwrath improves after being fully evolved and getting surf, becoming competent in most battles with it's worst matchups being other water types. Going to have moveslot issues later cause surf and rain dance take up 2 slots, leaving the other 2 for things like submission for Umbreon, Ice punch for grass and dragon types, a normal attack for other water types, or hypnosis for cheese strategies. This does make it versatile but does make the choice tough.
Furret maintains decent performance with normal stab and coverage to hit things with certain weaknesses that Normal can't hit hard enough. I suspect it will fall off at the elite four due to its mediocre bulk and power, though it is decently fast.
Stantler is a Normal Stab beatstick and a sleep inducer with little else right now. It is competent at it, but if it is not enough he is kinda dead weight.
Magneton needs Thunder tm from the game corner and rain dance tm with an annoying backtrack that melts most things that don't resist. So competent at what it does, but borderline useless outside of that job. I will give an update before the elite 4 like last time. Clair does look difficult for this team but we will see.
 
Morty: With Mud-Slap, Stantler (21lv) can 2HKO Gastly, 3HKO Haunter and 6HKO Gengar. Curse is guaranteed so some switching is mandatory. Dream Eater 2HKOs Stantler. Overall, it's not a bad fight if you teach the reindeer Mud Slap - it gets some kills and supports the team here.
Jasmine: Stantler (28lv) can 2HKO Magnemites but Mud Slap deals pitiful damage against Steelix. Magnemite's Thunderbolt 2HKOs back. Very RNG dependent battle at this level. At best, Stantler can beat both Magnemites and cripple Steelix. At worst, Stantler gets paralyzed and faints to the first Magnemite.

Bottom line, Mud Slap gives Stantler a fighting chance against those two.
Not really a fighting chance. It deals damage but loses in the end. At most you take down a Gastly and a Magnemite. Not even half a team.
 
Time for Clair
Poliwrath at level 37 2HKO the dragonair with ice punch while 3HKO by thunderbolt. Kingdra outspeeds and 3HKO with hyper beam, while Ice punch is 6HKO and submission is 3HKO but will knock yourself out due to the number of attacks plus recoil unless Kingdra uses smokescreen alot. good overall matchup.
Furret at level 36 2HKO Dragonair with return, while 4HKO with ice beam and thunderbolt. You will be paralyzed at some point so merely decent without item support.
Stantler at level 36 2HKO with headbutt on dragonair, may 1HKO with max return, wasn’t in the mood to reset the clock multiple times to get a ton of it. Ice Beam does around a little over a third. Surf from Kingdra does over half. Decent to good depending on hypnosis luck.
Magneton at level 36 3HKO the dragonair with thunder, while Tri attack is a 5HKO. The surf boosted by rain is a 2HKO to 3HKO. Thunder does half to Kingdra but if rain boosted, surf is a OHKO. Decent at best matchup.
Poliwrath average special attack is now kinda being a problem where dragons are 2HKO and they carry super effective coverage. He is good enough but he is not sweeping much without items.
Furret low power and bulk is kinda a problem now since even with a max return he doesn’t knock things out in 1 hit meaning he will be taking damage over a match. Decent at 1v1ing a specific target for you though due to speed.
Stantler is similar to furret except with a worse movepool. Hope getting earthquake will help out along with finally getting a second return.
Magneton is not great here since his best move requires rain which makes water attacks hurt alot. Funny though that a resisted thunder is better than tri attack. Final thoughts will be given at the league.
 
Time for Clair
Poliwrath at level 37 2HKO the dragonair with ice punch while 3HKO by thunderbolt. Kingdra outspeeds and 3HKO with hyper beam, while Ice punch is 6HKO and submission is 3HKO but will knock yourself out due to the number of attacks plus recoil unless Kingdra uses smokescreen alot. good overall matchup.
Furret at level 36 2HKO Dragonair with return, while 4HKO with ice beam and thunderbolt. You will be paralyzed at some point so merely decent without item support.
Stantler at level 36 2HKO with headbutt on dragonair, may 1HKO with max return, wasn’t in the mood to reset the clock multiple times to get a ton of it. Ice Beam does around a little over a third. Surf from Kingdra does over half. Decent to good depending on hypnosis luck.
Magneton at level 36 3HKO the dragonair with thunder, while Tri attack is a 5HKO. The surf boosted by rain is a 2HKO to 3HKO. Thunder does half to Kingdra but if rain boosted, surf is a OHKO. Decent at best matchup.
Poliwrath average special attack is now kinda being a problem where dragons are 2HKO and they carry super effective coverage. He is good enough but he is not sweeping much without items.
Furret low power and bulk is kinda a problem now since even with a max return he doesn’t knock things out in 1 hit meaning he will be taking damage over a match. Decent at 1v1ing a specific target for you though due to speed.
Stantler is similar to furret except with a worse movepool. Hope getting earthquake will help out along with finally getting a second return.
Magneton is not great here since his best move requires rain which makes water attacks hurt alot. Funny though that a resisted thunder is better than tri attack. Final thoughts will be given at the league.
Well Magneton does have 60 attack which Tri Attack uses vs the monstrous 120 SpA it pack.
 
Time for the elite 4 plus final thoughts. They all start at level 39.
Poliwrath after a Rain dance does a little over 2/3 while taking over half from Xatu’s Psychic. You are also outsped and likely will be confused. Pretty terrible matchup.
Furret is a 2HKO on Xatu, 1HKO on the Jynx, 3HKO after a reflect on the Executor while 2HKO otherwise and 4HKO on the slowbro after the same reflect while 3HKO without while using Shadow ball. You also outspeed everything but are 2HKO by Psychic. Pretty good matchup.
Stantler you outspeed and 2HKO the Xatu with return. You are then outsped by Jynx and take over half from Psychic. Return is either is a range or just misses the 1HKO on Jynx. Decent matchup overall.
Magneton 1HKO the Xatu and Slowbro, 3HKO on the Executor with Thunder. Psychic is a 4HKO. Decent matchup to good matchup if Executor is dealt with by someone else.
Poliwrath is 2HKO on Ariados and Venomoth with rain surf while 2HKO by Psychic. Decent matchup if the Venomoth is dealt with by someone else.
Furret with Return is a 2HKO on the Ariados, Venomoth and Muk while the Forretress is a 2HKO with fire punch and the Crobat is a range for 2HKO. Psychic from venomoth does around a third and you outspeed everything except the crobat. Good matchup if you don’t miss too much.
Stantler with Return is a 2HKO on the Ariados, Venomoth, while the Forretress is a 6HKO with Earthquake. Decent matchup overall.
Magneton with rain Thunder 1HKO on the Ariados and Crobat, 2HKO on the Forretress, Muk and venomoth of whom only the venomoth threatens at all with a 6HKO with Psychic. Excellent matchup.
Poliwrath is 2HKO with Surf plus rain on Hitmontop who will get 2 digs on you which does arround a sixth each. Hitmonchan is also 2HKO with surf while another sixth with thunder punch while outspeeding. Hitmonlee outsped and used swagger which lets it be 1HKO by submission, while 2HKO the Hitmonchan. 1HKO the onyx with surf. Decent matchup overall.
Furret 2HKO with return on Hitmontop and Hitmonlee while 1HKO with High jump kick. Machamp is 3HKO by return and cross chop 1HKO. 2HKO onyx with ice punch. Bad matchup overall.
Stantler is a range for 2HKO on Hitmontop while taking a fourth from dig, 2HKO on Hitmonlee while 1HKO with High jump Kick. 2HKO with earthquake on the Onyx. 2HKO on hitmonchan with return while taking half from mach punch. You do outspeed everything. Can cheese fight with hypnosis. Bad to ok matchup overall.
Magneton 2HKO the Hitmontop with thunder while taking 3 quarters from dig. 2HKO on the Machamp with Thunder while 1HKO by cross chop. Onyx walls you. Bad matchup overall.
Poliwrath does 2HKO on umbreon with submission. Takes about 30 hp from houndoom crunch and flamethrower while 2HKO with rain surf. Submission is also a 2HKO on houndoom so surf is better. Decent matchup.
Furret 3HKO with return on Umbreon while taking a fourth from faint attack. Does a little less than half to Vileplume with return. 2HKO on the murkrow with return while taking a third from faint attack while outspeeding. Houndoom outspeeds and does at least 2/3 of health. Decent matchup.
Stantler 4HKO on umbreon with return while taking about 5 faint attacks to faint. 1HKO on gengar with earthquake due to curse. Takes a third from faint attack Murkrow while 2HKO with return. Will win if not cursed since you are outsped. 3HKO with return on vileplume. Decent matchup.
Magneton can 3HKO with thunder against the Umbreon then gets outsped by Houndoom and 1 Shotted in rain by Flamethrower. 4HKO with thunder while taking a fifth from Vileplume. Ok matchup overall.
Poliwrath is outsped and 3HKO by Gyarados hyper beam while 5HKO with Strength. 2HKO all dragonite with nevermelt ice powered ice punch while tanking a hyper beam from level 50 one to about a fifth of his hp. Surf does over half to Aerodactyl. Takes a third from wing attack from charizard while 1HKO with rain boosted surf. Ok matchup.
Furret is a 3HKO on Gyarados with thunder punch while 2 shotted by rain boosted surf. You outspeed at least along with the level 47 dragonite who also are a 3HKO with ice punch. 4HKO with thunderpunch on aerodactyl who one shotted with crit hyper beam. Ok matchup.
Stantler outspeeds and is 3HKO on gyarados and dragonite with return. Takes half from rock slide from aerodactyl while doing a fourth with return. Ok matchup at best.
Magneton is 3HKO by surf while 1HKO with thunder on Gyarados who outspeeds. Can 3HKO the level 47 dragonite and can survive a hyper beam from half health. Ok matchup overall.
Poliwrath was bad before evolving then was good for a bit then became ok for the elite four. C to B tier for me.
Furret had the awkward pre quick attack phase and then is good after evolving until the elite four where the lack of bulk and power takes it down a peg. C tier seems fine.
Stantler is a furret with more bulk but less coverage. C tier as well.
Magneton is expensive to field and at the end was merely ok at its job since it got outsped and 1 shotted by coverage if not careful while being walled by specific threats. C tier.
I will do 1 more run before taking a break so any suggestions on who to test. I think I will use lapras which seems strong so any other suggestions will be appreciated.
 
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Here are the first 3 leaders for Butterfree and Nidoqueen.
Butterfree at level 10 2HKO the pidgey and a range for a 3HKO on the pidgeotto, while taking 3 damage from tackle and 13 from gust while having 35HP on my butterfree. You also outspeed everything. You can win with a berry and getting the range on the pidgeotto. A more consistent strategy is to use harden to reduce damage of gust since the pidgey can barely do anything. Good matchup overall.
Butterfree at level 16 is a 2HKO on the Metapod, 1HKO on the Kakuna and a 6 to 7HKO on the Scyther with confusion who will beat you with fury cutter. Scyther also outspeeds you. You can win if you sleep powder it to break the streak of fury cutter because it intially does piss for damage. Good Matchup overall.
Butterfree at level 17 1HKO the Gastly, 2HKO on the Zubat and 5HKO on the Bayleaf with confusion. A bite from the Zubat does 4 damage and a crit razor leaf also does 4 damage. You also outspeed everything. Flawless matchup except for minor chance of confusion from the Zubat.
Butterfree at level 20 is a 5HKO on the Clefairy and 7HKO on the Miltank with confusion. You get 2HKO from rollout if you do not use hardens on the clefairy. This is unfortunately an RNG fest because of metronome. You also get outsped by the Miltank. Ok matchup at best because of sleep powder. Mine also was male and had big problems with attract.
Nidoqueen at level 20 2HKO the clefairy and 3HKO the Miltank with double kick. You are outsped by the miltank but if it uses rollout it starts at 2 damage and you outdps the increase. Good matchup overall.
Butterfree is decent with the combination of sleep powder, confusion and decent speed. He can muscle past things he honestly shouldn't because sleep is op. The lack of stab sucks though. I do foresee some gym leaders to come being very problematic for Butterfree.
Nidoqueen has a very long backtrack back to your home town to dump all your money to get a moon stone early. Some may not see this as worth it at all. I did not mind since she trivializes the Whitney fight but I understand the other point of view. Not much time to grow an opinion on her but no stab kinda sucks. Good coverage though.
 

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