GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

[hayateknight]

I will ask if Surf for water types count for or against since they don’t learn it naturally but by the time you get most of them you already have it and it is infinite use anyway.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I will ask if Surf for water types count for or against since they don’t learn it naturally but by the time you get most of them you already have it and it is infinite use anyway.

Surf is exempt from the usual opportunity cost from TMs because it is an infinite use HM, yes.

 

[Turdterra]

The thing is you only need to beat a trainer once. It doesn't matter that both Cyndaquil and Pinsir want Fury Cutter for Whitney. You'll teach it to Pinsir who might use it in a minor matchup and get an extra moveslot on Cyndaquil. Competition only matters if multiple Pokemon would want the same TM for different battles.

Pretty sure I said that Pinsir *REQUIRES* the TM. Giving it to Lava for even one MU hurts Pinsir for the entirety of the game. Regardless it is for one MU or not. And again, regardless if it is for only one MU, that's a negative for the mon. You use a valuable TM and toss it away immediately after as it has no use. It's not efficient and just shows that Quil depends on certain TMs to have a favorable MU only for it to never use that move again.

 

[atsync]

There's actually some stuff that has been posted on this page that I disagree with but that I don't have the time to really respond right now, so I'll just focus on something that is perhaps more about tiering philosophy in generally rather than the specifics of what Pokemon need what TMs, etc.

I think being a starter in these particular games actually IS a big deal in terms of efficiency. So many of the Pokemon available in these games come later and under-leveled, and while it is possible to dismiss these things as "oh it only takes 20 minutes to overcome this" or something, that kind of time lapse is actually kind of sizable in GSC world. So in my opinion, an efficiency tier list for in-game GSC should be rewarding Pokemon that have more convenient availability than I suspect some of the other people posting here seem to think, and you can't really beat the starters in this regard. They are literally given to you for free right at the beginning and they all come at a level that almost eliminates any need to stop and grind levels in some random early-game patch of grass. The early-game "grind" of the starters amounts to nothing more than beating 2-3 Sentrets on the way to Mr. Pokemon's house. This gives the player a big head start compared to any other early route mon that isn't Spearow (who gets the Bug- and Bellsprout-slaying Peck by default and doesn't have to grind to get going either). And while their actual raw performance in battles is not going to be as impressive as some of the non-starters, it is difficult to actually "replace" them with these stronger Pokemon without incurring some sort of penalty that isn't really going to be made up for by being able to turn a 3HKO on some random Elite 4 mon into a 2HKO, so for the vast majority of playthroughs, it's going to be more efficient to just stick with them.

There still needs to be some consideration of battle performance for these guys, which is why the starters aren't all equally tiered: obviously Totodile is the best of the 3 and Chikorita is the worst. But I also think that if you are dealing with a Pokemon that has obvious flaws in its ability to beat opponents but requires basically no effort to use...I think those Pokemon actually deserve a bit of a pass for those aforementioned flaws, because realistically a non-solo playthrough incorporating these low effort starters is going to be completely more easily and efficiently than one that isn't. So with that in mind, I'd prefer for Cyndaquil and Chikorita to stay put (and if it wasn't obvious, this also plays into why I think dropping Totodile out of S is a mistake).

 

[Kioskate]

Pretty sure I said that Pinsir *REQUIRES* the TM. Giving it to Lava for even one MU hurts Pinsir for the entirety of the game. Regardless it is for one MU or not. And again, regardless if it is for only one MU, that's a negative for the mon. You use a valuable TM and toss it away immediately after as it has no use. It's not efficient and just shows that Quil depends on certain TMs to have a favorable MU only for it to never use that move again.

Ignoring the fact that Cyndaquil could use Rollout instead, why does it matter that Cyndaquil wants Fury Cutter for Whitney and Pinsir *REQUIRES* it when Pinsir can sweep Whitney? You can only battle Whitney once. If the argument is that they can both lose with bad luck so you want the other ready just in case then you have to remember that Fury Cutter needs time to get going which you won't have after the first Pokemon weakens or KO's Clefairy.

If Fury Cutter were an HM would you teach it to both Cyndaquil and Pinsir on the same team?

 

[DrumstickGaming]

There's actually some stuff that has been posted on this page that I disagree with but that I don't have the time to really respond right now, so I'll just focus on something that is perhaps more about tiering philosophy in generally rather than the specifics of what Pokemon need what TMs, etc.

I think being a starter in these particular games actually IS a big deal in terms of efficiency. So many of the Pokemon available in these games come later and under-leveled, and while it is possible to dismiss these things as "oh it only takes 20 minutes to overcome this" or something, that kind of time lapse is actually kind of sizable in GSC world. So in my opinion, an efficiency tier list for in-game GSC should be rewarding Pokemon that have more convenient availability than I suspect some of the other people posting here seem to think, and you can't really beat the starters in this regard. They are literally given to you for free right at the beginning and they all come at a level that almost eliminates any need to stop and grind levels in some random early-game patch of grass. The early-game "grind" of the starters amounts to nothing more than beating 2-3 Sentrets on the way to Mr. Pokemon's house. This gives the player a big head start compared to any other early route mon that isn't Spearow (who gets the Bug- and Bellsprout-slaying Peck by default and doesn't have to grind to get going either). And while their actual raw performance in battles is not going to be as impressive as some of the non-starters, it is difficult to actually "replace" them with these stronger Pokemon without incurring some sort of penalty that isn't really going to be made up for by being able to turn a 3HKO on some random Elite 4 mon into a 2HKO, so for the vast majority of playthroughs, it's going to be more efficient to just stick with them.

There still needs to be some consideration of battle performance for these guys, which is why the starters aren't all equally tiered: obviously Totodile is the best of the 3 and Chikorita is the worst. But I also think that if you are dealing with a Pokemon that has obvious flaws in its ability to beat opponents but requires basically no effort to use...I think those Pokemon actually deserve a bit of a pass for those aforementioned flaws, because realistically a non-solo playthrough incorporating these low effort starters is going to be completely more easily and efficiently than one that isn't. So with that in mind, I'd prefer for Cyndaquil and Chikorita to stay put (and if it wasn't obvious, this also plays into why I think dropping Totodile out of S is a mistake).

Availability is definitely important, for sure. That's why anything post 7-badges is a hard sell for being higher than D. Time lapse is for sure significant. Most Pokemon around Morty off the top of my head are B with minor shades of A at best. I think the only exception to this is like...GS Magmar being A I wanna say?

As for the starters, their availability helps, but going back to what I said about Poliwag, I feel availability isn't AS meaningful if a Pokemon does not make good use of the extended time period available. Look at Pineco and Yanma. Both are available early, but they both still do nothing because they have poor battle performance.

In terms of getting a head start on the rest of the game with the starters, I consider anything that beats Faulkner and Bugsy fairly minimal. It's essentially an entire team against their ace. Almost any of the 6 remaining gyms, even Pryce, are way more difficult and to me matter more than Faulkner and Bugsy do.

It's been a bit since I used Totodile, but I honestly wasn't a super huge fan of its performance post-Morty. I felt it played very similarly to Squirtle in the Kanto games in that it's fine early on, but only really gets by later moreso on the defensive value of the Water typing rather than outright advantages, though being helpful for Clair and Lance is definitely a good thing. However, Totodile, of all the three starters, definitely requires the least about of effort to use, and there's something to be said for that. I just didn't see the big GSC super-S-plus game-breaker that people hyped it up as, just merely a great, serviceable Pokemon, albeit nothing more than that. I felt very similar about Squirtle in RBY - yes it had the Gym advantages but it also felt very generic toward the end of the game.

Cyndaquil definitely requires a lot of patience post-Whitney. It's not a huge task to get to level 31 for the midgame gyms, but even then I found Flame Wheel pretty unimpressive aside from Jasmine - Poliwrath obviously stuffs it, and I don't see why you'd want to use non-STAB Strength / Return on Pryce off of 64 Attack. From roughly level 20 to 36, Quilava's usefulness amounts to route fodder, Chuck's Primeape and Pryce's Piloswine (neither of which are formidable) and Jasmine. While these sound decent enough, I think failing to put a dent in both Whitney and Morty (without very niche TMs I doubt the average player would consider) and Clair severely outweigh the positives. I feel like it plays like a Normal type without the STAB during this period, and availability boost or no, it's noticeable - I think it's only easy to downplay because everything mook wise in this game is woefully underleveled.

Chikorita I'm personally fine with it staying in C. It's been discussed to death in the past but any availability boost and 500+ BST cannot compensate for something that floundering in major battles. D I think is overkill though - I mean, it IS Chikorita, but saying Chikorita belongs in the same tier as lategame garbage just doesn't feel right.

Ignoring the fact that Cyndaquil could use Rollout instead, why does it matter that Cyndaquil wants Fury Cutter for Whitney and Pinsir *REQUIRES* it when Pinsir can sweep Whitney? You can only battle Whitney once. If the argument is that they can both lose with bad luck so you want the other ready just in case then you have to remember that Fury Cutter needs time to get going which you won't have after the first Pokemon weakens or KO's Clefairy.

If Fury Cutter were an HM would you teach it to both Cyndaquil and Pinsir on the same team?

It matters because it is an expendable resource that Cyndaquil needs to be not terrible.

Fury Cutter also isn't an HM: this is an objective fact of the game. Hypotheticals literally add nothing to this discussion. The only exception to this is renewable Goldenrod Dept. Store TMs as they are more or less infinite.

 

[Turdterra]

Ignoring the fact that Cyndaquil could use Rollout instead, why does it matter that Cyndaquil wants Fury Cutter for Whitney and Pinsir *REQUIRES* it when Pinsir can sweep Whitney? You can only battle Whitney once. If the argument is that they can both lose with bad luck so you want the other ready just in case then you have to remember that Fury Cutter needs time to get going which you won't have after the first Pokemon weakens or KO's Clefairy.

If Fury Cutter were an HM would you teach it to both Cyndaquil and Pinsir on the same team?

I do remember. You aren't supposed to be using another Pokemon anyway when you are testing as it removes any value off that Pokemon. You can't really say "Oh, X Pokemon did well in this fight because Y Pokemon weakened, debuffed, or removed a hard check." You got outside help there and that just tells you that the X Pokemon in this scenario is just not good then. Barring that point though.

Whitney
Pinsir (18): It can sweep, but you have to bank on Rollout to miss you once. (I used Lucky Egg for the first few levels to about 16). Moving on. Fury Cutter is a 3HKO on Clefairy which allows you to put Miltank in killing range on the 5th hit. It might be advisable to be abit lower leveled than me to enable the 5th Fury Cutter to hit Miltank and possible OHKO. Good MU.

Chuck
Pinsir (27 w/Mint Berry): He sweep, he scores. It is an incredibly easy Sweep too. Originally I tried to use PB Strength (this is a 2HKO on Ape and a 3HKO on Wrath) but you flat out lose to Wrath's Surf. Fury Cutter KOs Ape on the 4th usage and put Wrath to a 2HKO with 5th (If you miss the second one, just use Strength to clean up. Will KO.) Mint Berry was used for Hypnosis. Amazing MU.

Pryce
Pinsir (32 w/Pink Bow): Sweeps. Spam Fury Cutter. Cutter is a 3HKO on Seel, while Dewgong takes the remaining 2. Once Pilo comes out, it is OHKO'd by Fury Cutter 5. Optionally, Strength is a 2HKO on Seel and Dewgong, while a 3HKO on Pilo. Be wary as you will need to heal if you go this route. Amazing MU

Clair
Pinsir (37 w/PRZCureberry): Also has the potential to sweep surprisingly. You have to bank on Clair using TWave once and Surf twice on her first Nair. If she does this, Nair 1 is a 4HKO from Fury Cutter, while everything is, including Kingdra, is an OHKO at Fury Cutter 5. You outspeed all of them if not paralyzed.

Pinsir again, requires the TM for Whitney and further MUs as well. It's mandatory. Quil uses it on Whitney and never again. At this point, the horse has been beaten, killed, buried, had a ritual dance accompanied by a bonfire, beaten it's now risen ghost, and exorcised. Move on from this argument now.

 

[Xator_Nova]

I may respond to atsync's post later, as I have a few things to say but regarding this post

Ignoring the fact that Cyndaquil could use Rollout instead, why does it matter that Cyndaquil wants Fury Cutter for Whitney and Pinsir *REQUIRES* it when Pinsir can sweep Whitney? You can only battle Whitney once. If the argument is that they can both lose with bad luck so you want the other ready just in case then you have to remember that Fury Cutter needs time to get going which you won't have after the first Pokemon weakens or KO's Clefairy.

If Fury Cutter were an HM would you teach it to both Cyndaquil and Pinsir on the same team?

1) because someone else may want rollout mid or long-term, too. using a non-replenishable TM always comes at the detriment of other mon, which can make a battle that another mon could have taken worse instead, and even if you are not using it, it restricts team composition, as it has to fit on a team that doesn't require the TM. a mon that only needs return to win battles is more splashable and therefore a more efficient choice. fury cutter reliance is also a negative for pinsir

2) because you can sell the TM if you don't need it, which lets you have more money, particularly for vitamins, other TMs (particularly in the game corner), x-items, healing items...

 

[Ernesto]

Ohhh boy, the can of worms has been opened. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to be thorough. My impressions are based off the last run I did with Cynda which was for the other thread (therefore the noms are inflated), I wanted to use it alongside Vileplume but never got around to. I might in the future but not in time for this discussion to end.

Before I start I wanna say that I thought a lot what I was gonna write and I felt a bit frustrated because of the way the conversation was going (like, who cares about Pinsir? Why does it matter if it needs Fury Cutter to live when nobody worries if it's alive or dead?) and I didn't want to get stuck in the middle of another shitshow. Let's hope that's not the case.

So that it's more ordered

Falkner (level 13): Pidgey lives an Ember and Mud-Slaps, which can be annoying. However, it's only 5HKOed by Pidgeotto's Gust while Ember 3HKOs meaning you should win most of the time, especially with a Berry.

Bugsy (level 17 - 18): OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna with Ember and levels up. Ember seems to be a positive roll to 2HKO Scyther even without Charcoal, while it does very little damage back with Quick Attack.

Silver (Azalea Town) (level 17): Ember 2HKOs Gastly which can put you to sleep or para you with Lick (might wanna give it a berry). Croconaw comes in and 3HKOs with Water Gun, while Ember doesn't even 4HKO with a burn and Tackle does less. Zubat might live two Embers but it's a favorable roll, only thing it can do is confuse you.

Whitney (level 20 - 21): Headbutt and Ember 3HKO Clefairy. Miltank's first Rollout does 1/4 health and Stomp does around 40% while Ember falls short of a 4HKO, meaning you need a lot of Smokescreen luck to win.
With Fury Cutter, you need four hits to KO Clefairy so Smokescreen helps to not get too weakened by Doubleslap (also you might want to get the Gold Berry from the Machop trade, I didn't). Miltank lives the fifth Fury Cutter, so if you were weakened you can die of two Rollouts. I could barely live both with a Berry. It might be advisable to Headbutt Clefairy first so that Fury Cutter needs only three hits and also you can flinch. When you take Metronome into account you realize there's too much luck involved, I only managed to sweep twice (and Clefairy missed a Toxic and Miltank missed Rollout).
With Rollout Clefairy is 3HKOed and Miltank dies to hits four and five, so it's obviously much cleaner. Unfortunately, you still rely on hitting every hit and Clefairy not weakening you enough so that Miltank 2HKOs you, also a Stomp flinch can be lethal. Note that Quilava was male but Miltank never used Attract.
It was Saturday so I decided to go get a Gold Berry at the Bug-Catching Contest. The first mon that appeared was a lv. 13 Pinsir which won me the second price #fail. I finally got it with a lv. 13 Butterfree. With it you can definitely survive three Stomps but you still rely on it not flinching/missing to win. The other strategies are pretty much the same except obviously better, but it consumes all my willpower.

Silver (Burned Tower) (level 22 - 23): Outspeeds and 3HKOs Haunter, if it Curses you can then KO and switch out unscathed. Dig does like 3/4 but watch out for Lick para. If you put Croconaw to sleep, Headbutt 3HKOs it after a Defense drop (I gave it Rock Smash because Furret doesn't learn it fsr). Water Gun 3HKOs back so be careful. Zubat lives two Charcoal Embers amazingly but Magnemite is obviously OHKOed.

Morty (level 26): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and the first Haunter while 4HKOing Gengar, who puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Dream Eater. With Dig you OHKO Gastly and the first Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, which means that when holding a Mint Berry you win 64% of the time (not counting that Gengar might Mean Look fsr). The second Haunter lives in red. Only Gengar outspeeds.

Chuck (level 31): Apparently Primeape is a roll to 2HKO with Charcoal Flame Wheel, so you might take a lot of damage. It likes to Leer tho so you can also beat it unscathed. Then comes Poliwrath, which can put you in red at -1 with Dynamicpunch if it hits or put you to sleep. Return appears to be a 4HKO back—3HKO if Rock Smash drops Def. I wish I'd kept Smokescreen to see if it can take advantage of the innacurate moves because once I actually swept without taking damage since it kept missing Hypnosis. Why it didn't use Surf is beyond me, Crystal AI I guess (the one time it used it it put me in red). Not gonna count it as a positive matchup but lol.

Jasmine (level 31): Magnemite drops to Flame Wheel, then comes Steelix which is 2HKOed and does around half with Rock Throw. The second Magnemite goes the same way. Good matchup as expected.

Pryce (level 32): Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong (2HKOs after a Defense drop). Piloswine lives a Flame Wheel in yellow but doesn't do much damage. Fury Cutter isn't very good because it can get wasted by Rest and Dewgong lives the fifth hit (also speed ties after an Icy Wind). Rollout is obviously better minus the accuracy, the fourth hit OHKOs Dewgong and the fifth KOs Swine so the only issue is if Gong wins the speed tie and flinches you. It's still good without it, anyway.

Silver (Underground) (level 34 - 35): Golbat is outsped and 3HKOed by Flame Wheel while it 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Watch out for Confuse Ray. Gatr comes in and is 4HKOed by Return (3HKOed after a Defense drop) while it 3HKOs with Water Gun so you'll need to heal. The second time it actually started with Rage, but unfortunately I hit myself. Haunter used Shadow Ball for 20 damage and was 2HKOed, similarly with Sneasel and Faint Attack. Magnemite dies. I outsped everything but Sneasel. A sweep is possible with healing but both Golbat and Gatr are annoying.

Clair (level 38): Return 2HKOs the Dragonair even without Pink Bow. With it Kingdra is 3HKOed (!) (2HKOed at -1) and Typhlosion lives a Surf from full, so you can actually win if Kingdra leads with Smokescreen. Obviously not a good matchup but that shit's hilarious.

Silver (Victory Road) (level 40 - 41): Outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Fire Punch, then Feraligatr comes in and is taken to low yellow with T-Punch while doing less than 30% with Water Gun. Golbat lives the T-Punch in red and can confuse. Haunter and Magneton are also OHKOed with Fire Punch, and Kadabra can live in red but dies to Return. Excellent matchup.

Will (level 41): Thunderpunch leaves the first Xatu in red and it can confuse you or do a bit over a third with Psychic. Then comes Slowbro which lives in yellow and uses Amnesia. With Magnet you still don't OHKO Xatu but you can 2HKO Slowbro through Amnesia (it actually lived with 1 HP once but got full para'd). The second Xatu also lives in red an can Confuse Ray, however since it calls a Max Potion it's only a 3HKO. Without Charcoal Exeggutor and Jynx might live the Fire Punch and hit hard or put you to sleep. With Sunny Day, Charcoal Fire Punch still doesn't OHKO Xatu so there's not much of a point in trying (I wanted to do Sunny Day -> Fire Punch -> KO Slowbro with Bel's SloarBeam -> 2HKO the second Xatu but couldn't do it). Charcoal Fire Blast does OHKO both Xatu, however. Exeggutor and Jynx then drop to Fire Punch. Overall Fire Blast clearly improves this matchup and missing the 2HKO on Slowbro doesn't really matter. You can still sweep without it but I'd recommend switching out from Confuse Ray instead of using a Bitter Berry since Charcoal is needed to beat the Fire-weak mons. Do note that you only live two Psychics, so if you got hit by the first Xatu the second can KO you. Good matchup, great with Fire Blast.

Koga (level 41 - 42): Fire Punch OHKOs Ariados and Forretress and 3HKOs Muk, who can Toxic or Minimize. Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO but might become a 2HKO with poison. Earthquake two-shots Muk if you have it. Crobat outspeeds and 4HKOs with Wing Attack but generally goes for Double-Team, you 2HKO back with ThunderPunch (3HKO after Full Restore). If you Fire Punch first you don't proc Full Restore, although it becomes a roll to KO. Venomoth is OHKOed by Fire Punch.

Bruno (level 42): Charcoal Fire Punch appears to be a roll to 2HKO Hitmontop so it needs sun to ensure it. Dig is a 3HKO. With Earthquake you can KO Top while it's underground and then 2HKO Onix.Sun-boosted Fire Punch leaves Onix in low yellow and Typh lives an Earthquake. Hitmonchan lives a hit and can Mach Punch you twice, annoying. Machamp is 2HKOed in sun but procs Max Potion, meanwhile Rock Slide does 70% if you healed. Hitmonlee also lives a sun-boosted Fire Punch but dies to two outside of sun. Everything can live one Fire Blast but is left in low yellow/red, in the sun they all roast except Machamp who can consitently live in red and KO back with Rock Slide if you took a Dig (unless you burn it). Meh matchup since not even with Sunny Day + Fire Blast can it sweep.

Karen (level 42 - 43): You come close to 3HKOing Umbreon with Fire Punch but it lives to annoy you, swicth out of debuffs. Fire Punch does just about enough to Gengar that it dies to Curse, it can go either way. Murkrow drops to one ThunderPunch but can seldom live it. Houndoom is almost 2HKOed by Return, it seems this is the battle of the rolls. Fire Punch has a good chance of OHKOing Vileplume after leveling up. Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO Umbreon but it does guarantee the OHKO on Vileplume. DynamicPunch is a 2HKO on Umbreon but you need to actually hit them. If it hits itself Fire Punch still doesn't kill. Both DynamicPunch and Earthquake leave Houndoom in red, which means it's a 3HKO after a Max Potion. Good matchup overall, can reliably get three kills and overcome at least one of the other two.

Lance (level 42 - 43): Gyarados can actually live a ThunderPunch (Magnet turns it into a positive roll, guaranteed at 43) but it only sets up rain. Aerodactyl outspeeds and 2HKOs with Rock Slide while living the TP, it can also flinch. Return appears to be a 4HKO on Dragonite and you can live one Hyper Beam which does around 100/135. You outspeed and 2HKO Charizard. Bad matchup since you can only beat two one on one, I guess X Special can be used to defeat Aerodactyl? Rollout isn't worth it since Aerodactyl comes in after you kill Gyara and beats you.

So in synthesis, Cyndaquil's bad matchups are Silver (Azalea Town), Whitney, Chuck, Clair, Bruno, and Lance. Falkner and Pryce aren't iffy matchups, it can win with ease most of the time. If you're really that worried about Mud-Slap you can have something else beat Pidgey (like Spearow or your own Pidgey) and Cynda beats Pidgeotto as long as it's level 12. That doesn't make it a bad matchup just as Geodude sometimes missing the OHKO against Pidgeotto at level 11 doesn't mean it won't sweep. Similarly, Pryce's Dewgong is only annoying because of Rest so if you still have Leer you can beat it reliably. Literally my set right before Quilava evolved was Flame Wheel / Return / Quick Attack / Rock Smash and the last one just because I needed it for the Burned Tower.
Will and Karen are also generally positive. You need to be at level 41 and hold a Charcoal to reliably beat Exeggutor and Jynx but Slowbro isn't a problem. Hell, I beat it with freaking Wigglytuff ThunderPunching. If it Amnesias first you 3HKO but if it Curses you 2HKO ez. Biggest problem really is having to choose between Bitter Berry and Charcoal to improve your chances. Against Karen Vileplume can live and para so you want a Berry but that in turn makes Gengar live Fire Punch + Curse. You should still be able to beat three mons, though, and Earthquake helps you defeat Houndoom if you need it to. Outspeeding everything is pretty useful.
Oh, and against Lance you beat Gyara and Charizard so I guess that's better than most? Failing to scratch Dragonite sucks tho.

Regarding TMs: I tried everything that had been mentioned before because of the discussion at the time so I can give my honest impressions. I don't really think Rollout is particularly useful for Quilava but not because it has base 64 Attack (you guys shouldn't forget that since you have Cynda since level 5 it's bound to have much higher stats than other things, like if you check the linked post you can see that it surpassed every single Raikou stat but HP), rather because in arguably the only matchup where you really want it, against Whitney, it's just not good enough since you can miss, get flinched or get 2HKOed by Miltank's Rollout without procing Gold Berry. Stuff such as Sandshrew and Furret are much better because they can CurlOut against Clefairy. I do wanna say though, you can't have your cake and eat it too: if you argue Rollout isn't reliable you can't then talk about how Miltank and Geodude want it ASAP to have great matchups; it's one or the other.
Fury Cutter is really an afterthought, you can use it if something else needs Rollout but it's not even guaranteed to let you beat Whitney so I wouldn't consider it, it takes too long to get going and Clefairy can hax you. On the other hand, Dig is actually very useful against Morty (and I guess Silver's Haunter) and not really required by much. This isn't RBY Dig, we're talking about a 60 BP move so it's not like a lot of things desperately want it. The aforementioned Sandshrew and Furret like it, yea, but they can get by. Dunno about you but I've never used Geodude and thought "Damn, if only I could have the reliable power of Dig", Magnitude works fine where you need it to. Wooper is a different thing though, I agree it wants it and it's a mon that you could very well use alongside Cynda since it's one of the few that hit Union Cave super effectively. Anyway, the point is Dig (and to a lesser extent Rollout I guess) can help turn an average matchup into a positive one thanks to outspeeding everything but Gengar and sweeping with a Mint Berry.
Earthquake and Sunny Day can help beat stuff such as Koga's Muk or Karen's Houndoom but aren't particularly required. You're still not sweeping Bruno or beating Umbreon with sun boosted Fire Blast so doubt it's cost effective. It does KO Will's Xatu so that you don't have to contend with confusion, however—meaning instead of KOing 3-4 mons at most you can sweep. DynamicPunch isn't great either, obviously.

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

It doesn't really need anything else, Dig is the most useful one if you want it to sweep Morty but other than that it can perform as a B-tier without any one-use TM. It won't be gamebreaking like Fearow or Feraligatr but it can still hold its ground in the midgame fine and sure as hell isn't two tiers below Magmar (who's top five). Don't let base stats trick you, Return is actually good on it. You can do dumb stuff such as beating Chuck's Poliwrath because the AI keeps using moves that miss instead of Surfing, lol.

Hope I could help clarify stuff although I doubt I'll change anyone's mind.

 

[Turdterra]

Ohhh boy, the can of worms has been opened. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to be thorough. My impressions are based off the last run I did with Cynda which was for the other thread (therefore the noms are inflated), I wanted to use it alongside Vileplume but never got around to. I might in the future but not in time for this discussion to end.

Before I start I wanna say that I thought a lot what I was gonna write and I felt a bit frustrated because of the way the conversation was going (like, who cares about Pinsir? Why does it matter if it needs Fury Cutter to live when nobody worries if it's alive or dead?) and I didn't want to get stuck in the middle of another shitshow. Let's hope that's not the case.

So that it's more ordered

Falkner (level 13): Pidgey lives an Ember and Mud-Slaps, which can be annoying. However, it's only 5HKOed by Pidgeotto's Gust while Ember 3HKOs meaning you should win most of the time, especially with a Berry.

Bugsy (level 17 - 18): OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna with Ember and levels up. Ember seems to be a positive roll to 2HKO Scyther even without Charcoal, while it does very little damage back with Quick Attack.

Silver (Azalea Town) (level 17): Ember 2HKOs Gastly which can put you to sleep or para you with Lick (might wanna give it a berry). Croconaw comes in and 3HKOs with Water Gun, while Ember doesn't even 4HKO with a burn and Tackle does less. Zubat might live two Embers but it's a favorable roll, only thing it can do is confuse you.

Whitney (level 20 - 21): Headbutt and Ember 3HKO Clefairy. Miltank's first Rollout does 1/4 health and Stomp does around 40% while Ember falls short of a 4HKO, meaning you need a lot of Smokescreen luck to win.
With Fury Cutter, you need four hits to KO Clefairy so Smokescreen helps to not get too weakened by Doubleslap (also you might want to get the Gold Berry from the Machop trade, I didn't). Miltank lives the fifth Fury Cutter, so if you were weakened you can die of two Rollouts. I could barely live both with a Berry. It might be advisable to Headbutt Clefairy first so that Fury Cutter needs only three hits and also you can flinch. When you take Metronome into account you realize there's too much luck involved, I only managed to sweep twice (and Clefairy missed a Toxic and Miltank missed Rollout).
With Rollout Clefairy is 3HKOed and Miltank dies to hits four and five, so it's obviously much cleaner. Unfortunately, you still rely on hitting every hit and Clefairy not weakening you enough so that Miltank 2HKOs you, also a Stomp flinch can be lethal. Note that Quilava was male but Miltank never used Attract.
It was Saturday so I decided to go get a Gold Berry at the Bug-Catching Contest. The first mon that appeared was a lv. 13 Pinsir which won me the second price #fail. I finally got it with a lv. 13 Butterfree. With it you can definitely survive three Stomps but you still rely on it not flinching/missing to win. The other strategies are pretty much the same except obviously better, but it consumes all my willpower.

Silver (Burned Tower) (level 22 - 23): Outspeeds and 3HKOs Haunter, if it Curses you can then KO and switch out unscathed. Dig does like 3/4 but watch out for Lick para. If you put Croconaw to sleep, Headbutt 3HKOs it after a Defense drop (I gave it Rock Smash because Furret doesn't learn it fsr). Water Gun 3HKOs back so be careful. Zubat lives two Charcoal Embers amazingly but Magnemite is obviously OHKOed.

Morty (level 26): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and the first Haunter while 4HKOing Gengar, who puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Dream Eater. With Dig you OHKO Gastly and the first Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, which means that when holding a Mint Berry you win 64% of the time (not counting that Gengar might Mean Look fsr). The second Haunter lives in red. Only Gengar outspeeds.

Chuck (level 31): Apparently Primeape is a roll to 2HKO with Charcoal Flame Wheel, so you might take a lot of damage. It likes to Leer tho so you can also beat it unscathed. Then comes Poliwrath, which can put you in red at -1 with Dynamicpunch if it hits or put you to sleep. Return appears to be a 4HKO back—3HKO if Rock Smash drops Def. I wish I'd kept Smokescreen to see if it can take advantage of the innacurate moves because once I actually swept without taking damage since it kept missing Hypnosis. Why it didn't use Surf is beyond me, Crystal AI I guess (the one time it used it it put me in red). Not gonna count it as a positive matchup but lol.

Jasmine (level 31): Magnemite drops to Flame Wheel, then comes Steelix which is 2HKOed and does around half with Rock Throw. The second Magnemite goes the same way. Good matchup as expected.

Pryce (level 32): Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong (2HKOs after a Defense drop). Piloswine lives a Flame Wheel in yellow but doesn't do much damage. Fury Cutter isn't very good because it can get wasted by Rest and Dewgong lives the fifth hit (also speed ties after an Icy Wind). Rollout is obviously better minus the accuracy, the fourth hit OHKOs Dewgong and the fifth KOs Swine so the only issue is if Gong wins the speed tie and flinches you. It's still good without it, anyway.

Silver (Underground) (level 34 - 35): Golbat is outsped and 3HKOed by Flame Wheel while it 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Watch out for Confuse Ray. Gatr comes in and is 4HKOed by Return (3HKOed after a Defense drop) while it 3HKOs with Water Gun so you'll need to heal. The second time it actually started with Rage, but unfortunately I hit myself. Haunter used Shadow Ball for 20 damage and was 2HKOed, similarly with Sneasel and Faint Attack. Magnemite dies. I outsped everything but Sneasel. A sweep is possible with healing but both Golbat and Gatr are annoying.

Clair (level 38): Return 2HKOs the Dragonair even without Pink Bow. With it Kingdra is 3HKOed (!) (2HKOed at -1) and Typhlosion lives a Surf from full, so you can actually win if Kingdra leads with Smokescreen. Obviously not a good matchup but that shit's hilarious.

Silver (Victory Road) (level 40 - 41): Outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Fire Punch, then Feraligatr comes in and is taken to low yellow with T-Punch while doing less than 30% with Water Gun. Golbat lives the T-Punch in red and can confuse. Haunter and Magneton are also OHKOed with Fire Punch, and Kadabra can live in red but dies to Return. Excellent matchup.

Will (level 41): Thunderpunch leaves the first Xatu in red and it can confuse you or do a bit over a third with Psychic. Then comes Slowbro which lives in yellow and uses Amnesia. With Magnet you still don't OHKO Xatu but you can 2HKO Slowbro through Amnesia (it actually lived with 1 HP once but got full para'd). The second Xatu also lives in red an can Confuse Ray, however since it calls a Max Potion it's only a 3HKO. Without Charcoal Exeggutor and Jynx might live the Fire Punch and hit hard or put you to sleep. With Sunny Day, Charcoal Fire Punch still doesn't OHKO Xatu so there's not much of a point in trying (I wanted to do Sunny Day -> Fire Punch -> KO Slowbro with Bel's SloarBeam -> 2HKO the second Xatu but couldn't do it). Charcoal Fire Blast does OHKO both Xatu, however. Exeggutor and Jynx then drop to Fire Punch. Overall Fire Blast clearly improves this matchup and missing the 2HKO on Slowbro doesn't really matter. You can still sweep without it but I'd recommend switching out from Confuse Ray instead of using a Bitter Berry since Charcoal is needed to beat the Fire-weak mons. Do note that you only live two Psychics, so if you got hit by the first Xatu the second can KO you. Good matchup, great with Fire Blast.

Koga (level 41 - 42): Fire Punch OHKOs Ariados and Forretress and 3HKOs Muk, who can Toxic or Minimize. Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO but might become a 2HKO with poison. Earthquake two-shots Muk if you have it. Crobat outspeeds and 4HKOs with Wing Attack but generally goes for Double-Team, you 2HKO back with ThunderPunch (3HKO after Full Restore). If you Fire Punch first you don't proc Full Restore, although it becomes a roll to KO. Venomoth is OHKOed by Fire Punch.

Bruno (level 42): Charcoal Fire Punch appears to be a roll to 2HKO Hitmontop so it needs sun to ensure it. Dig is a 3HKO. With Earthquake you can KO Top while it's underground and then 2HKO Onix.Sun-boosted Fire Punch leaves Onix in low yellow and Typh lives an Earthquake. Hitmonchan lives a hit and can Mach Punch you twice, annoying. Machamp is 2HKOed in sun but procs Max Potion, meanwhile Rock Slide does 70% if you healed. Hitmonlee also lives a sun-boosted Fire Punch but dies to two outside of sun. Everything can live one Fire Blast but is left in low yellow/red, in the sun they all roast except Machamp who can consitently live in red and KO back with Rock Slide if you took a Dig (unless you burn it). Meh matchup since not even with Sunny Day + Fire Blast can it sweep.

Karen (level 42 - 43): You come close to 3HKOing Umbreon with Fire Punch but it lives to annoy you, swicth out of debuffs. Fire Punch does just about enough to Gengar that it dies to Curse, it can go either way. Murkrow drops to one ThunderPunch but can seldom live it. Houndoom is almost 2HKOed by Return, it seems this is the battle of the rolls. Fire Punch has a good chance of OHKOing Vileplume after leveling up. Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO Umbreon but it does guarantee the OHKO on Vileplume. DynamicPunch is a 2HKO on Umbreon but you need to actually hit them. If it hits itself Fire Punch still doesn't kill. Both DynamicPunch and Earthquake leave Houndoom in red, which means it's a 3HKO after a Max Potion. Good matchup overall, can reliably get three kills and overcome at least one of the other two.

Lance (level 42 - 43): Gyarados can actually live a ThunderPunch (Magnet turns it into a positive roll, guaranteed at 43) but it only sets up rain. Aerodactyl outspeeds and 2HKOs with Rock Slide while living the TP, it can also flinch. Return appears to be a 4HKO on Dragonite and you can live one Hyper Beam which does around 100/135. You outspeed and 2HKO Charizard. Bad matchup since you can only beat two one on one, I guess X Special can be used to defeat Aerodactyl? Rollout isn't worth it since Aerodactyl comes in after you kill Gyara and beats you.

So in synthesis, Cyndaquil's bad matchups are Silver (Azalea Town), Whitney, Chuck, Clair, Bruno, and Lance. Falkner and Pryce aren't iffy matchups, it can win with ease most of the time. If you're really that worried about Mud-Slap you can have something else beat Pidgey (like Spearow or your own Pidgey) and Cynda beats Pidgeotto as long as it's level 12. That doesn't make it a bad matchup just as Geodude sometimes missing the OHKO against Pidgeotto at level 11 doesn't mean it won't sweep. Similarly, Pryce's Dewgong is only annoying because of Rest so if you still have Leer you can beat it reliably. Literally my set right before Quilava evolved was Flame Wheel / Return / Quick Attack / Rock Smash and the last one just because I needed it for the Burned Tower.
Will and Karen are also generally positive. You need to be at level 41 and hold a Charcoal to reliably beat Exeggutor and Jynx but Slowbro isn't a problem. Hell, I beat it with freaking Wigglytuff ThunderPunching. If it Amnesias first you 3HKO but if it Curses you 2HKO ez. Biggest problem really is having to choose between Bitter Berry and Charcoal to improve your chances. Against Karen Vileplume can live and para so you want a Berry but that in turn makes Gengar live Fire Punch + Curse. You should still be able to beat three mons, though, and Earthquake helps you defeat Houndoom if you need it to. Outspeeding everything is pretty useful.
Oh, and against Lance you beat Gyara and Charizard so I guess that's better than most? Failing to scratch Dragonite sucks tho.

Regarding TMs: I tried everything that had been mentioned before because of the discussion at the time so I can give my honest impressions. I don't really think Rollout is particularly useful for Quilava but not because it has base 64 Attack (you guys shouldn't forget that since you have Cynda since level 5 it's bound to have much higher stats than other things, like if you check the linked post you can see that it surpassed every single Raikou stat but HP), rather because in arguably the only matchup where you really want it, against Whitney, it's just not good enough since you can miss, get flinched or get 2HKOed by Miltank's Rollout without procing Gold Berry. Stuff such as Sandshrew and Furret are much better because they can CurlOut against Clefairy. I do wanna say though, you can't have your cake and eat it too: if you argue Rollout isn't reliable you can't then talk about how Miltank and Geodude want it ASAP to have great matchups; it's one or the other.
Fury Cutter is really an afterthought, you can use it if something else needs Rollout but it's not even guaranteed to let you beat Whitney so I wouldn't consider it, it takes too long to get going and Clefairy can hax you. On the other hand, Dig is actually very useful against Morty (and I guess Silver's Haunter) and not really required by much. This isn't RBY Dig, we're talking about a 60 BP move so it's not like a lot of things desperately want it. The aforementioned Sandshrew and Furret like it, yea, but they can get by. Dunno about you but I've never used Geodude and thought "Damn, if only I could have the reliable power of Dig", Magnitude works fine where you need it to. Wooper is a different thing though, I agree it wants it and it's a mon that you could very well use alongside Cynda since it's one of the few that hit Union Cave super effectively. Anyway, the point is Dig (and to a lesser extent Rollout I guess) can help turn an average matchup into a positive one thanks to outspeeding everything but Gengar and sweeping with a Mint Berry.
Earthquake and Sunny Day can help beat stuff such as Koga's Muk or Karen's Houndoom but aren't particularly required. You're still not sweeping Bruno or beating Umbreon with sun boosted Fire Blast so doubt it's cost effective. It does KO Will's Xatu so that you don't have to contend with confusion, however—meaning instead of KOing 3-4 mons at most you can sweep. DynamicPunch isn't great either, obviously.

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

It doesn't really need anything else, Dig is the most useful one if you want it to sweep Morty but other than that it can perform as a B-tier without any one-use TM. It won't be gamebreaking like Fearow or Feraligatr but it can still hold its ground in the midgame fine and sure as hell isn't two tiers below Magmar (who's top five). Don't let base stats trick you, Return is actually good on it. You can do dumb stuff such as beating Chuck's Poliwrath because the AI keeps using moves that miss instead of Surfing, lol.

Hope I could help clarify stuff although I doubt I'll change anyone's mind.

Pinsir was being used as a comparison in regards to Fury Cutter. Glad to see that point was failed on you. Even talking here puts you in this so called "shitshow" so congrats, you are officially a part of this.

While the post is informative, it hasn't really swayed my opinion that Quil is C Tier. The sheer amount of TM chugging is beyond insane and that type of reliance isn't what a B Tier is imo. Maybe if you only had to use 2-3 I could see it. But 10 TMs? Absolutely no way. That guts resources and as stated, a few of those should go to Pokemon who could use them better. Quil restricts you from teambuilding this way. Granted a few of those are infinite use (Headbutt) but Return is every Sunday which requires you to access the hidden menu unless you clone it.

Among other things, a few of the strats require inefficient moves. Smokescreen being a major one. This has been explained numerous times that abusing Smokescreen to get a W is in fact not a W. It's pure luck you won't get hit within the first hits.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Speaking of failed points on people you evidently missed the point of his post, as follows:

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

Hardly chugging 10 TMs.

That's the second person on this page alone you've talked down to without cause. Do better.

 

[Turdterra]

Speaking of failed points on people you evidently missed the point of his post, as follows:

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

Hardly chugging 10 TMs.

That's the second person on this page alone you've talked down to without cause. Do better.

Good to know we can add a lack of reading to your set of skills. Do better.

This is your first post in the thread and you want to start a fight? No thanks. Either provide constructive criticism to the argument or don’t. Not in the mood for your shenanigans.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Speaking of failed points on people you evidently missed the point of his post, as follows:

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

Hardly chugging 10 TMs.

That's the second person on this page alone you've talked down to without cause. Do better.

Just because we disagree strongly on something doesn't mean we aren't trying to be civil.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if we disagree. It's just hard to draw the line between borderline objective log performance and subjective feelings about Pokemon.

And if we disagree, so be it. We'll work it out and a mon will eventually be decided on. But randomly aggressive comments out of nowhere really don't add anything productive. At all.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

At this point, the horse has been beaten, killed, buried, had a ritual dance accompanied by a bonfire, beaten it's now risen ghost, and exorcised. Move on from this argument now.

Glad to see that point was failed on you. Even talking here puts you in this so called "shitshow" so congrats, you are officially a part of this.

Good to know we can add a lack of reading to your set of skills. Do better.

Only one person in this thread is being aggressive or uncivil. You're all more than capable of discussing cyndaquil without resorting to personal attacks.

 

[Turdterra]

Only one person in this thread is being aggressive or uncivil. You're all more than capable of discussing cyndaquil without resorting to personal attacks.

The argument went on for quite awhile. Has nothing to with “talking down or being uncivil”.

Ernesto posted that because he was frustrated and said who the hell cares about Pinsir, when Pinsir was simply being used as an example in regards to why Fury Cutter is a necessity for it. This entire argument has been based on how much Quil drains resources from other Pokémon, thereby restricting the player from using select Pokémon from their full potential.

Last comment is because you went and talked down to me. Granted you do that in various other threads, so it comes to no surprise to me. RSE, FRLG, etc. You deem it necessary to talk down to, berate, and just generally be toxic when opinions go against yours.

I decided to snark back because you simply want to start a fight here instead of adding anything of value which I had politely asked you to do prior and if you could not to not.

Again, either add some constructive to the argument at hand or don’t bother at all. I grow tired of my interactions with you that result in nothing more than berating one another.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

what the hell happened in here??

I will make one last post about Cyndaquil and then stop involving myself, because I myself have run out of arguments and I think this should just be settled soon-ish so we can focus on other Pokemon that haven't been tested too much

first, I am not even sure why Fury Cutter is such a hot topic, Fury Cutter Quilava is a meme set and has no real use beyond *trying* to sweep Whitney with it as far as I see it (maybe to sweep Pryce too, if you don't have Rollout?) and there's very little competition for Fury Cutter (I mean, I don't think I am limiting my team options if I am suddenly unable to use Fury Cutter Paras or Pinsir). Rollout is a much better move to teach Quilava and I think that should be the main topic here.

Regarding Rollout, I would like to mention that nothing that learns Rollout via TM is really gonna use it long-term either. Most things, like Cyndaquil, use it for, at best, three reasons:

1) to sweep Whitney
2) to attempt to sweep Morty
3) to sweep Pryce

after this, I cannot think of a single instance where you really want Rollout after Pryce, because either they resist it (Chuck, Jasmine, Bruno) or there are so many obstacles that Rollout going through five times would be a miracle (Clair, Will, Koga, Karen), with Lance most likely overpowering you before you can even reach fifth Rollout and Silver being somewhat in both categories.

additionally, very few Pokemon depend on Rollout to remain relevant. Those Pokemon, in particular, are Koffing, Voltorb, Exeggcute, and Shuckle. In the former three's case, it's pretty much the only good move they can start with, whilst Shuckle needs it to even try to win against something. Conveniently, all of those have been nominated for D- or E-tier by me. Miltank makes a better use of Rollout against Morty, but otherwise doesn't seem to need it either. Furthermore, Geodude doesn't need Rollout at all, despite what you may think; if you want to beat Whitney, what you can do is simply click Self-destruct on Miltank and kill it (the disadvantage is that you don't get experience, but Med Slow growth rate means that Geodude can compensate for that easily). This is arguably even better than Rollout, as you don't worry about misses.

Thus, in most cases, if you teach Rollout to Quilava, it means that it will simply be the one to take on those three fights if you don't have anything better. And if you taught Rollout to, say, Sentret, then Sentret will simply be the one to take on them instead (though Furret also learns Dig and uses it a bit more than Cyndaquil, but that's a different topic). Very few Pokemon are going to be shafted by this decision and that's moreso because they themselves are terrible.

(as a side note, I want to hint at the idea of bringing Rollout Quilava to Morty. It's not as reliable as Dig, but you also have the potential to sweep if you get lucky, since only Gengar outspeeds you)

At the end of the day, I do not think Rollout is a significant investment for Cyndaquil, though that's obviously based on philosophy, so I understand that not everyone will agree with this. I simply think that Rollout does mostly the same no matter which Pokemon you teach it to and the fact that it's almost universally useful only for three fights means that only few Pokemon truly value having it, but obviously, someone may be able to find a good reason to use Rollout beyond Pryce that I didn't think of.

 

[Xator_Nova]

Ohhh boy, the can of worms has been opened. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to be thorough. My impressions are based off the last run I did with Cynda which was for the other thread (therefore the noms are inflated), I wanted to use it alongside Vileplume but never got around to. I might in the future but not in time for this discussion to end.

Before I start I wanna say that I thought a lot what I was gonna write and I felt a bit frustrated because of the way the conversation was going (like, who cares about Pinsir? Why does it matter if it needs Fury Cutter to live when nobody worries if it's alive or dead?) and I didn't want to get stuck in the middle of another shitshow. Let's hope that's not the case.

So that it's more ordered

Falkner (level 13): Pidgey lives an Ember and Mud-Slaps, which can be annoying. However, it's only 5HKOed by Pidgeotto's Gust while Ember 3HKOs meaning you should win most of the time, especially with a Berry.

Bugsy (level 17 - 18): OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna with Ember and levels up. Ember seems to be a positive roll to 2HKO Scyther even without Charcoal, while it does very little damage back with Quick Attack.

Silver (Azalea Town) (level 17): Ember 2HKOs Gastly which can put you to sleep or para you with Lick (might wanna give it a berry). Croconaw comes in and 3HKOs with Water Gun, while Ember doesn't even 4HKO with a burn and Tackle does less. Zubat might live two Embers but it's a favorable roll, only thing it can do is confuse you.

Whitney (level 20 - 21): Headbutt and Ember 3HKO Clefairy. Miltank's first Rollout does 1/4 health and Stomp does around 40% while Ember falls short of a 4HKO, meaning you need a lot of Smokescreen luck to win.
With Fury Cutter, you need four hits to KO Clefairy so Smokescreen helps to not get too weakened by Doubleslap (also you might want to get the Gold Berry from the Machop trade, I didn't). Miltank lives the fifth Fury Cutter, so if you were weakened you can die of two Rollouts. I could barely live both with a Berry. It might be advisable to Headbutt Clefairy first so that Fury Cutter needs only three hits and also you can flinch. When you take Metronome into account you realize there's too much luck involved, I only managed to sweep twice (and Clefairy missed a Toxic and Miltank missed Rollout).
With Rollout Clefairy is 3HKOed and Miltank dies to hits four and five, so it's obviously much cleaner. Unfortunately, you still rely on hitting every hit and Clefairy not weakening you enough so that Miltank 2HKOs you, also a Stomp flinch can be lethal. Note that Quilava was male but Miltank never used Attract.
It was Saturday so I decided to go get a Gold Berry at the Bug-Catching Contest. The first mon that appeared was a lv. 13 Pinsir which won me the second price #fail. I finally got it with a lv. 13 Butterfree. With it you can definitely survive three Stomps but you still rely on it not flinching/missing to win. The other strategies are pretty much the same except obviously better, but it consumes all my willpower.

Silver (Burned Tower) (level 22 - 23): Outspeeds and 3HKOs Haunter, if it Curses you can then KO and switch out unscathed. Dig does like 3/4 but watch out for Lick para. If you put Croconaw to sleep, Headbutt 3HKOs it after a Defense drop (I gave it Rock Smash because Furret doesn't learn it fsr). Water Gun 3HKOs back so be careful. Zubat lives two Charcoal Embers amazingly but Magnemite is obviously OHKOed.

Morty (level 26): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and the first Haunter while 4HKOing Gengar, who puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Dream Eater. With Dig you OHKO Gastly and the first Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, which means that when holding a Mint Berry you win 64% of the time (not counting that Gengar might Mean Look fsr). The second Haunter lives in red. Only Gengar outspeeds.

Chuck (level 31): Apparently Primeape is a roll to 2HKO with Charcoal Flame Wheel, so you might take a lot of damage. It likes to Leer tho so you can also beat it unscathed. Then comes Poliwrath, which can put you in red at -1 with Dynamicpunch if it hits or put you to sleep. Return appears to be a 4HKO back—3HKO if Rock Smash drops Def. I wish I'd kept Smokescreen to see if it can take advantage of the innacurate moves because once I actually swept without taking damage since it kept missing Hypnosis. Why it didn't use Surf is beyond me, Crystal AI I guess (the one time it used it it put me in red). Not gonna count it as a positive matchup but lol.

Jasmine (level 31): Magnemite drops to Flame Wheel, then comes Steelix which is 2HKOed and does around half with Rock Throw. The second Magnemite goes the same way. Good matchup as expected.

Pryce (level 32): Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong (2HKOs after a Defense drop). Piloswine lives a Flame Wheel in yellow but doesn't do much damage. Fury Cutter isn't very good because it can get wasted by Rest and Dewgong lives the fifth hit (also speed ties after an Icy Wind). Rollout is obviously better minus the accuracy, the fourth hit OHKOs Dewgong and the fifth KOs Swine so the only issue is if Gong wins the speed tie and flinches you. It's still good without it, anyway.

Silver (Underground) (level 34 - 35): Golbat is outsped and 3HKOed by Flame Wheel while it 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Watch out for Confuse Ray. Gatr comes in and is 4HKOed by Return (3HKOed after a Defense drop) while it 3HKOs with Water Gun so you'll need to heal. The second time it actually started with Rage, but unfortunately I hit myself. Haunter used Shadow Ball for 20 damage and was 2HKOed, similarly with Sneasel and Faint Attack. Magnemite dies. I outsped everything but Sneasel. A sweep is possible with healing but both Golbat and Gatr are annoying.

Clair (level 38): Return 2HKOs the Dragonair even without Pink Bow. With it Kingdra is 3HKOed (!) (2HKOed at -1) and Typhlosion lives a Surf from full, so you can actually win if Kingdra leads with Smokescreen. Obviously not a good matchup but that shit's hilarious.

Silver (Victory Road) (level 40 - 41): Outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Fire Punch, then Feraligatr comes in and is taken to low yellow with T-Punch while doing less than 30% with Water Gun. Golbat lives the T-Punch in red and can confuse. Haunter and Magneton are also OHKOed with Fire Punch, and Kadabra can live in red but dies to Return. Excellent matchup.

Will (level 41): Thunderpunch leaves the first Xatu in red and it can confuse you or do a bit over a third with Psychic. Then comes Slowbro which lives in yellow and uses Amnesia. With Magnet you still don't OHKO Xatu but you can 2HKO Slowbro through Amnesia (it actually lived with 1 HP once but got full para'd). The second Xatu also lives in red an can Confuse Ray, however since it calls a Max Potion it's only a 3HKO. Without Charcoal Exeggutor and Jynx might live the Fire Punch and hit hard or put you to sleep. With Sunny Day, Charcoal Fire Punch still doesn't OHKO Xatu so there's not much of a point in trying (I wanted to do Sunny Day -> Fire Punch -> KO Slowbro with Bel's SloarBeam -> 2HKO the second Xatu but couldn't do it). Charcoal Fire Blast does OHKO both Xatu, however. Exeggutor and Jynx then drop to Fire Punch. Overall Fire Blast clearly improves this matchup and missing the 2HKO on Slowbro doesn't really matter. You can still sweep without it but I'd recommend switching out from Confuse Ray instead of using a Bitter Berry since Charcoal is needed to beat the Fire-weak mons. Do note that you only live two Psychics, so if you got hit by the first Xatu the second can KO you. Good matchup, great with Fire Blast.

Koga (level 41 - 42): Fire Punch OHKOs Ariados and Forretress and 3HKOs Muk, who can Toxic or Minimize. Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO but might become a 2HKO with poison. Earthquake two-shots Muk if you have it. Crobat outspeeds and 4HKOs with Wing Attack but generally goes for Double-Team, you 2HKO back with ThunderPunch (3HKO after Full Restore). If you Fire Punch first you don't proc Full Restore, although it becomes a roll to KO. Venomoth is OHKOed by Fire Punch.

Bruno (level 42): Charcoal Fire Punch appears to be a roll to 2HKO Hitmontop so it needs sun to ensure it. Dig is a 3HKO. With Earthquake you can KO Top while it's underground and then 2HKO Onix.Sun-boosted Fire Punch leaves Onix in low yellow and Typh lives an Earthquake. Hitmonchan lives a hit and can Mach Punch you twice, annoying. Machamp is 2HKOed in sun but procs Max Potion, meanwhile Rock Slide does 70% if you healed. Hitmonlee also lives a sun-boosted Fire Punch but dies to two outside of sun. Everything can live one Fire Blast but is left in low yellow/red, in the sun they all roast except Machamp who can consitently live in red and KO back with Rock Slide if you took a Dig (unless you burn it). Meh matchup since not even with Sunny Day + Fire Blast can it sweep.

Karen (level 42 - 43): You come close to 3HKOing Umbreon with Fire Punch but it lives to annoy you, swicth out of debuffs. Fire Punch does just about enough to Gengar that it dies to Curse, it can go either way. Murkrow drops to one ThunderPunch but can seldom live it. Houndoom is almost 2HKOed by Return, it seems this is the battle of the rolls. Fire Punch has a good chance of OHKOing Vileplume after leveling up. Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO Umbreon but it does guarantee the OHKO on Vileplume. DynamicPunch is a 2HKO on Umbreon but you need to actually hit them. If it hits itself Fire Punch still doesn't kill. Both DynamicPunch and Earthquake leave Houndoom in red, which means it's a 3HKO after a Max Potion. Good matchup overall, can reliably get three kills and overcome at least one of the other two.

Lance (level 42 - 43): Gyarados can actually live a ThunderPunch (Magnet turns it into a positive roll, guaranteed at 43) but it only sets up rain. Aerodactyl outspeeds and 2HKOs with Rock Slide while living the TP, it can also flinch. Return appears to be a 4HKO on Dragonite and you can live one Hyper Beam which does around 100/135. You outspeed and 2HKO Charizard. Bad matchup since you can only beat two one on one, I guess X Special can be used to defeat Aerodactyl? Rollout isn't worth it since Aerodactyl comes in after you kill Gyara and beats you.

So in synthesis, Cyndaquil's bad matchups are Silver (Azalea Town), Whitney, Chuck, Clair, Bruno, and Lance. Falkner and Pryce aren't iffy matchups, it can win with ease most of the time. If you're really that worried about Mud-Slap you can have something else beat Pidgey (like Spearow or your own Pidgey) and Cynda beats Pidgeotto as long as it's level 12. That doesn't make it a bad matchup just as Geodude sometimes missing the OHKO against Pidgeotto at level 11 doesn't mean it won't sweep. Similarly, Pryce's Dewgong is only annoying because of Rest so if you still have Leer you can beat it reliably. Literally my set right before Quilava evolved was Flame Wheel / Return / Quick Attack / Rock Smash and the last one just because I needed it for the Burned Tower.
Will and Karen are also generally positive. You need to be at level 41 and hold a Charcoal to reliably beat Exeggutor and Jynx but Slowbro isn't a problem. Hell, I beat it with freaking Wigglytuff ThunderPunching. If it Amnesias first you 3HKO but if it Curses you 2HKO ez. Biggest problem really is having to choose between Bitter Berry and Charcoal to improve your chances. Against Karen Vileplume can live and para so you want a Berry but that in turn makes Gengar live Fire Punch + Curse. You should still be able to beat three mons, though, and Earthquake helps you defeat Houndoom if you need it to. Outspeeding everything is pretty useful.
Oh, and against Lance you beat Gyara and Charizard so I guess that's better than most? Failing to scratch Dragonite sucks tho.

Regarding TMs: I tried everything that had been mentioned before because of the discussion at the time so I can give my honest impressions. I don't really think Rollout is particularly useful for Quilava but not because it has base 64 Attack (you guys shouldn't forget that since you have Cynda since level 5 it's bound to have much higher stats than other things, like if you check the linked post you can see that it surpassed every single Raikou stat but HP), rather because in arguably the only matchup where you really want it, against Whitney, it's just not good enough since you can miss, get flinched or get 2HKOed by Miltank's Rollout without procing Gold Berry. Stuff such as Sandshrew and Furret are much better because they can CurlOut against Clefairy. I do wanna say though, you can't have your cake and eat it too: if you argue Rollout isn't reliable you can't then talk about how Miltank and Geodude want it ASAP to have great matchups; it's one or the other.
Fury Cutter is really an afterthought, you can use it if something else needs Rollout but it's not even guaranteed to let you beat Whitney so I wouldn't consider it, it takes too long to get going and Clefairy can hax you. On the other hand, Dig is actually very useful against Morty (and I guess Silver's Haunter) and not really required by much. This isn't RBY Dig, we're talking about a 60 BP move so it's not like a lot of things desperately want it. The aforementioned Sandshrew and Furret like it, yea, but they can get by. Dunno about you but I've never used Geodude and thought "Damn, if only I could have the reliable power of Dig", Magnitude works fine where you need it to. Wooper is a different thing though, I agree it wants it and it's a mon that you could very well use alongside Cynda since it's one of the few that hit Union Cave super effectively. Anyway, the point is Dig (and to a lesser extent Rollout I guess) can help turn an average matchup into a positive one thanks to outspeeding everything but Gengar and sweeping with a Mint Berry.
Earthquake and Sunny Day can help beat stuff such as Koga's Muk or Karen's Houndoom but aren't particularly required. You're still not sweeping Bruno or beating Umbreon with sun boosted Fire Blast so doubt it's cost effective. It does KO Will's Xatu so that you don't have to contend with confusion, however—meaning instead of KOing 3-4 mons at most you can sweep. DynamicPunch isn't great either, obviously.

At the end of the day your set will go something like:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Strength/Return
Ember -> Flame Wheel -> Fire Punch
Leer -> ThunderPunch
Filler

It doesn't really need anything else, Dig is the most useful one if you want it to sweep Morty but other than that it can perform as a B-tier without any one-use TM. It won't be gamebreaking like Fearow or Feraligatr but it can still hold its ground in the midgame fine and sure as hell isn't two tiers below Magmar (who's top five). Don't let base stats trick you, Return is actually good on it. You can do dumb stuff such as beating Chuck's Poliwrath because the AI keeps using moves that miss instead of Surfing, lol.

Hope I could help clarify stuff although I doubt I'll change anyone's mind.

you know, the problem with the argumentation is that this description makes cyndaquil look comparable to chikorita. think about it:

according to my results

Chikorita couldn't win: Falkner, Bugsy, Silver (Azalea), Silver (Burned Tower), Morty, Clair, Koga, Karen, Lance
[9 battles]

assuming I understood you correctly

Cyndaquil couldn't win: Silver (Azalea Town), Whitney, Silver (Burned Tower) [Curse forces to switch out, needs sleep support for Croconaw], Chuck, Silver (Underground) [needs healing items], Clair, Bruno, Karen, Lance,
[9 battles]

 

[Ernesto]

Ok so I honestly didn't expect that reaction to my post. I want to clarify that when I was reading the previous comments I got frustrated but that's why I waited to type, so I wouldn't come off as too snappy. I just wanted to provide more information so that the discussion wouldn't keep returning to the same topics and devolve into another shitshow, I wasn't trying to fan the flames. Turdterra, I really didn't mean the Pinsir comment as a personal attack so I apologize. What I was getting at was just that, since Fury Cutter isn't a very contested TM (unlike Earthquake), we can evaluate its merits or demerits on Cyndaquil without worrying about if someone else needs it. Even then, if you want to use Pinsir alongside it you can since Cynda can use Rollout to similar results. Anyway, at the end of the day I said Fury Cutter wasn't great on Cynda so it's a bit pointless.

About TMs: I prolly should've used underscore to make my points clear so that it didn't look so wall-of-text-y. I thought about splitting it in points but I realized that I'd written more about Rollout and Dig so it'd still not look great. I tried all those things because at the time it was being discussed that Cynda could use FC/Rollout to sweep Whitney and SD+Fire Blast to beat Bruno so I needed to check if that was real (keep in mind that at that time Cynda was borderline A-B, not C like it's being argued here). So I wanted to make my run as complete as possible. Like it reads from my post, Whitney and Bruno are still considered bad matchups due to the return on investment.
So to recap:
- Rollout can help against Whitney, Morty, and Pryce but it's still not great against Whitney (even with a Gold Berry which you can get from MUSCLE) due to hax and rolls. The others are fine but less important matchups.
- Fury Cutter is bad. It can be used against Whitney (and Pryce I guess) if Rollout is taken but barely worth it.
- Dig is good to turn Morty from mediocre to possible sweep with Mint Berry. Not useful outside of that but worth it if nothing else wants it.
- Earthquake is good for Muk and Houndoom (and Hitmontop, lol) but it's only a 2HKO and a lot of mons want it.
- Sunny Day can help a bit but isn't strong enough when paired with Fire Punch since stuff like Xatu and Onix live the hit.
- Fire Blast helps sweep Will but isn't strong enough to kill Bruno's Machamp even boosted by sun, therefore not worth the investment.
- DynamicPunch is DynamicPunch. Dunno why I even mentioned it.

So I'd say Dig and Rollout are good options and Earthquake only if nobody else needs it, the others are just there.

I'm going to presume you didn't actually mean that Return should count as a one-time TM just because you can only get one per week and that was you being annoyed because of Pinsir. In any case, Strength works just fine until Clair if you can't get it.

Ryota Mitarai I agree with most of what you said, I'll just mention that the reason I said Furret didn't really need Dig was because after Morty it can use Fire Punch and Shadow Ball for the few Normal resists there are (and Surf I guess), so Dig is virtually outclassed later on.

Xator_Nova I mean I think you know that it's not the same to say "can't sweep" as "performs badly" so I don't need to explain that beating 3/4 of Silver's mons is a much better result than having to spam Mud-Slap to actually do something. There's always a degree of performance and Cynda's bad performances are the ones I mentioned—and even then it has ways to improve a couple of those.
I do wanna mention that you're partly right about the Silver Underground fight since Golbat sucks, however if you can get to level 36 (which I didn't because I thought was unrealistic but other people did) you'll obviously perform significantly better. Still tho, beating 3 out of 5 is not a bad matchup.
And little sweeps Karen but Typhlosion can take out 3 out of 5, again. I wish it'd do better against the ace but that's why it's in the average performances and not in the sweeps.

So I'd sum it up like:
Wins more or less outright: Falkner, Bugsy, Jasmine, Pryce, Silver (Victory Road), Koga.
Solid performances: Silver (Burned Tower), Will
Average performances: Morty, Silver (Underground), Karen
Bad performances: Silver (Azalea Town), Whitney, Chuck, Clair, Bruno, Lance

You can switch up the Silver fights as they're fringe, it's just to give it an order. And like said previously some of those matchups can be improved.

Again, this post is in total good faith and I don't want to come off as attacking anybody. I want my opinion heard like anyone else but would rather the thread isn't locked again because of one mon people are so passionate about. I feel like my first post failed to do that and that sucks since I liked that we were getting back on track.

 

[Roldski32]

question on rival 3 and 4

I notice Rollout wasn't tried for them, do you think it would have helped Quilava?

I'm just not fond of using Rollout. On Rival 3, the 4th hit was close to 1HKOing Croconaw, but this one was based on the old log where i'm trying out making one prior to joining in In-Game Tier List, and I wasn't quite detailed on doing that log (Quilava was Level 21). Rival 4 seems a bit iffy due to Confuse Ray Golbat, but it could be fixed with a held Bitter Berry, i guess.

Anyway, Did another run with Chikorita alongside Gastly (No Trade), Onix (No Trade) and Farfetch'd

Chikorita

=Falkner=
Chikorita L12
Tackle is close to 3HKOing Pidgey and 5HKOing Pidgeotto. With Reflect up, Pidgeotto deals 7/34 hp back. Pidgeotto outspeeds
Razor Leaf 6HKOs Pidgeotto and is close to 3HKOing Pidgey.

its a loss even with Reflect.

At level 13
Tackle reliably 3HKOs Pidgey and 5HKOs Pidgeotto
Razor Leaf 5HKOs Pidgeotto and is close to 2HKOing Pidgey. Pidgeotto still outspeeds

You could possibly sweep if you got a lucky Razor Leaf crit against Pidgeotto, otherwise its still a loss
=Bugsy=
Bayleef L16 @ MiracleSeed
Tackle is close to 4HKOing Metapod and Kakuna and is barely scratching Scyther
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf is close to 3HKOing Metapod
=Rival 2=
Bayleef L16 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 3HKOs Gastly
Tackle 4HKOs Zubat.
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly and is close to 6HKOing Quilava. If you unfortunately got hit by Hypnosis despite accuracy drop, Gastly will Spite away Mud-Slap's 10 PP, Quilava outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

=Whitney=
Bayleef L19 @ MiracleSeed
Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Clefairy and has a roll to 5HKO Miltank. Miltank outspeeds

Fury Cutter 4HKOs Clefairy and the 5th hit is close to 1HKOing Miltank

Needs Fury Cutter to sweep
=Rival 3=
Bayleef L22 @ MiracleSeed
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Quilava.
Razor Leaf has a roll to 4HKO Magnemite
Mud-Slap 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after a Curse) and 2HKOs Magnemite
Beats 1 at best ( 2 or 3 with Mud-Slap)
=Morty=
Bayleef L23 @ Mint Berry
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Gastly
Mud-Slap 4HKOs L21 is close to 1HKOing Gastly after a Curse, 3HKOing L21 Haunter, and 6HKOing Gengar

Bad
=Chuck=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed / Mint Berry
Body Slam 2HKOs Primeape
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 3HKOs Poliwrath and has a roll to 3HKO Primeape

Needs Luck to sweep

As Meganium
Razor Leaf 2HKOs Poliwrath
Can reliably sweep
=Jasmine=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 5HKOs All. Steelix 2HKOs back, it goes for Screech if Bayleef is going for Reflect, which still 2HKOs afterwards
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemite

Bad without Mud-Slap

As Meganium
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Steelix.

You could sweep here with Mud-Slap + Reflect + PRZCureBerry, but you need luck to not get into 20 HP or less by the time you beat Steelix (or relying on dodging an Iron Tail), and Steelix has tendency to go for Screech turn 1.

=Pryce=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong, and is close to 2HKOing Piloswine. Piloswine almost 1HKOs back with Blizzard, its Icy Wind deals almost half. Dewgong 2HKOs back and outspeeds Bayleef after a Speed drop

Only beats Seel

As Meganium
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 2HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine, and puts Seel in red. Dewgong still outspeeds after an Icy Wind speed drop. Piloswine does 3/4 HP back.

Needs to dodge Blizzard to sweep
=Rival 4=
Meganium L33-34 @ Pink Bow / Bitter Berry
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Quilava and Sneasel, 3HKOs Magnemite and is close to 2HKOing Golbat
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs Haunter

Beats 3 or 4 barring hax. Can reliably beat 4 with the help of Synthesis barring hax

With Mud-Slap you could sweep barring hax. Synthesis greatly improves its chance to sweep. Use Reflect if Golbat decides to spam Wing Attack
=Clair=
Meganium L38 @ PRZCureBerry
Body Slam 4HKOs Kingdra and is close to 2HKOing the Dragonairs. Kingdra outspeeds, Dragonbreath does 1/4 and Hyper Beam does 1/3
Razor Leaf 5HKOs Kingdra

Beats 2 Dragonairs(preferably Surf and Tbolt one) at best. Could 1v1 Kingdra with Body Slam(Synthesis is helpful in this 1v1).

=Rival 5=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Sneasel, Golbat, 1HKOs Kadabra, 3HKOs Typhlosion and is close to 4HKOing Magneton. Typhlosion outspeeds and 2HKOs back.
Earthquake 1HKOs Magneton and Haunter and puts Typhlosion in red.

Beats 4 at best ( 5 with Earthquake TM)

=Will=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Jynx, 4HKOs Slowbro without Curse and is close to 2HKOing both Xatus and 3HKOing Exeggutor. Slowbro and both Xatu 3HKOs back, Jynx 2HKOs back, Exeggutor almost 2HKOs back.
Razor Leaf is close to 2HKOing Slowbro

Beats 1 or 2 at best

At Level 41
Even with Light Screen + Synthesis, i was only able to beat 3 mons because i ran out of Synthesis PP, and L40 Xatu had a tendency to hax down Meganium with Confuse Ray. Jynx and both Xatus outspeeds.
=Koga=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Venomoth and is close to 2HKOing Ariados, and 3HKOing Muk and Crobat.
Earthquake 2HKOs Muk
Beats 2 at best (Possibly 3 with Earthquake)
=Bruno=
Meganium L41 @ Pink Bow
Body Slam 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Lee, 4HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing Chan. Even with Reflect up, Machamp can 1HKO back with a crit Cross Chop
Razor Leaf 1HKOs Onix. Without Razor Leaf, it struggles against Onix as it chips you down with Sandstorm + Bind

With Reflect, it can beat 4 ( 3 without Razor Leaf)
=Karen=
Meganium L41 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 4HKOing Umbreon and 3HKOing Vileplume
Earthquake KOs Gengar after a Curse
Houndoom outspeeds and 1HKOs back

Beats 2 at best (or 3 with Earthquake)
=Lance=
Meganium L44
Pink Bow Body Slam is close to 3HKOing Gyarados and 4HKOing L47 Dragonite

Beats 1 at best, needs Reflect + healing to possibly beat 2 (Gyarados + Thunder Dnite)

Ok, Chikorita has a good cases for a D Tier nomination, and I also want to go for D Tier mainly because the game design of GSC is just so awful towards Grass-types, so many stuff resisted it from start to finish. Ignoring that, I was able to sweep Falkner with Chikorita before, L13 Chiko was able to outspeed Pidgeotto from a memory. But it would mean you have to rely on a very high Speed DVs or something to get a more consistent sweep against Falkner. You really do need to reach level 32 for Gym 5-7, because Bayleef is meh on those, even its Pryce matchup is disappointing despite the type advantage. Synthesis is nice, but i recall of something related to Synthesis Torterra from DPPt tier list, but couldn't explain it but aside from it, i had some problems with it and those being 5 PP (this is big because how it would quickly ran out of PP due to how long Meganium beats something, and Ethers aren't buyable unlike Full Restore) restricted to play between 10AM - 6PM to make best used of it because it heals 1/4 hp during morning or night (this one isn't relevant) and i got strapped on moveslot. I had a moveslot of Reflect / Body Slam / Synthesis / Razor Leaf and wanted to fit Mud-Slap for Jasmine, and i had an issue doing so. Razor Leaf seems the easiest one to replace because it only hits few specific target (this assumes you beat Pryce first before Jasmine). Without Razor Leaf, i just lost to Bruno's Onix because i took too long to beat it with a Normal move while it slowly chips me down with Sandstorm + Bind. I tried going for Synthesis + dual screen at the late game, and one thing i don't like is having to put Earthquake TM on Meganium to have a better matchup against Rival in Victory Road only to get it deleted afterwards. I would rather used it on Grounds or something instead. Even with screens helping it tank more hits, Meganium could took long to take down something because its like a Normal-type attacker without a STAB, I took a little bit long to take down Bruno's Machamp that it got a crit Cross Chop and bypassed Reflect. That's also i want to mention, because after I got Body Slam at Level 31, Razor Leaf started to feel like its more of a glorified coverage move than an actual STAB move. Its damage compared to Body Slam is very little ; Miracle Seed Razor Leaf's 90 BP vs Body Slam's 85 BP (95 BP after a badge boost), not to mentioned its offenses on both side are near-identical (82 Atk vs 83 SpA), and Body Slam beats it not only with slightly higher damage, but also it isn't resisted a lot on boss fights unlike Razor Leaf, and has better side effect (30% para), I had some instances where unSTAB Body Slam dealt more damage than STAB Razor Leaf against neutral targets. I barely clicked Razor Leaf on routes as Meganium either unless i ran into some Water or Ground. If Chikorita went down to D Tier, then i'm fine with Cyndaquil being in C Tier.

Gastly (No Trade)

=Falkner=
Gastly L11
Can't touch birds, lol
=Bugsy=
Gastly L16
Lick 7HKOs the cocoons
Scyther is beaten by Curse + Hypnosis.
=Rival 2=
Gastly L16
Lick 2HKOs Gastly and is super close to 5HKOing Zubat. Zubat 3HKOs back
Quilava can beaten by Curse + Hypnosis, but it 3HKOs back and Smokesceen can be annoying
=Whitney=
Gastly L19
Needs to land first Hypnosis to beat Miltank with Curse. Gastly gets KOed by 2 hits after a Curse
=Rival 3=
Gastly L22
Lick 2HKOs Haunter after a Curse. Haunter speedties and 3HKOs back
Night Shade 2HKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs the rest
Needs Hypnosis to sweep, otherwise it beats 2 at best.
=Morty=
Haunter L25
Night Shade 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs both Haunters. Gengar outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Beats 2 or 3
=Chuck=
Haunter L30
Shadow Ball 2HKOs Primeape and is close to 3HKOing Poliwrath. Poliwrath can 2HKO back
Needs Hypnosis to sweep

Thunder puts Poliwrath in red
=Jasmine=
Haunter L30 @ PRZCure Berry
Night Shade 4HKOs Steelix and 2HKOs the Magnemites. Steelix 1HKOs back, Magnemite 2HKOs back

Needs Hypnosis to possibly sweep.
=Pryce=
Haunter L32
Shadow Ball 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs the rest.
Beats 2, needs Hypnosis to sweep

Thunder 1HKOs Seel and puts Dewgong in red.
=Rival 4=
Haunter L33-34 @ PRZCureBerry
Shadow Ball 3HKOs Golbat and Magnemite, 1HKOs Haunter and is super close to 2HKOing Quilava
Thunder 1HKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Sneasel ,Magnemite and Quilava. Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKOs back

Beats 4 at best. Needs luck and Hypnosis to sweep.
=Clair=
Haunter L38 @ Spell Tag
Spell Tag Shadow Ball 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 4HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra 2HKOs back

Beats 1 or 2 Dragonair at best. Needs Spell Tag to get 2HKO
=Rival 5=
Haunter L40 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunder 1HKOs Golbat, 2HKOs Magneton and Typhlosion, and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel. Sneasel isn't going for Faint Attack

Shadow Ball 1HKOs Haunter and Kadabra, and 3HKOs Typhlosion.

Beats 5 at best.
=Will=
Haunter L40 @ Magnet
Shadow Ball 2HKOs Exeggutor and both Xatu, 1HKOs Jynx and is close to 2HKOing Slowbro. All 1HKOs back

Magnet Thunder 1HKOs Slowbro and both Xatus

Beats 1 or 2 at best. Haunter can sweep, but you had to rely on landing Thunder on L40 Xatu and Hypnosis on Exeggutor.
=Koga=
Haunter L41 @ Magnet
Shadow Ball is close to 2HKOing Ariados and Venomoth
Magnet Thunder 1HKOs Crobat, 3HKOs Muk and 2HKOs the rest. Forretress has tendency to stall out Thunder. Getting hit by Venomoth puts Haunter in KO range from Crobat.

Beats 4 at best. Needs to land Hypnosis on Venomoth to sweep
=Bruno=
Haunter L41 @ Magnet
Shadow Ball 5HKOs Onix
Magnet Thunder 2HKOs the Hitmons and is close to 2HKOing Machamp. Machamp 2HKOs back with Cross Chop

Only beats Chan and Lee. Needs Hypnosis to beat the rest
=Karen=
Haunter L42 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunder 1HKOs Murkrow, 3HKOs Umbreon and is close to 2HKOing Houndoom. Umbreon 2HKOs back, Houndoom speedties and 1HKOs back
Shadow Ball 4HKOs Vileplume and puts Gengar in red
Beats 2 at best.
=Lance=
Haunter L42 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunder 1HKOs Gyarados and Aerodactyl, 3HKOs L47 Dragonites, and is close to 1HKOing Charizard

Beats 2 at best

I could go for D Tier, i guess, though i could quickly change my mind and go for E instead. Gastly phase is awful until Level 21, i was only 4HKOing stuff against routes on average, and i don't like its contribution is limited to only lose half hp against aces. Curse damage only occurs on the time they attack you, and it doesn't trigger if they KO something. As Haunter, 50 Atk Shadow Ball is... not good. One of the few move it could used its higher Special Attack stat is the expensive Thunder TM from Game Corner, and its going to function as a Electric-Type with no STAB.

Onix (No Trade)

=Bugsy=
Onix L15
Rock Throw 2HKOs Metapod and puts the rest in red. Still a sweep
=Rival 2=
Onix L16
Rock Throw 2HKOs Gastly and Quilava and is close to 1HKOing Zubat
=Whitney=
Onix L19
Rock Throw 3HKOs Clefairy
After 1 Screech, Dig 4HKOs Miltank
After 2 Screech, Dig is close to 2HKOing Miltank
=Rival 3=
Onix L22
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and puts Haunter in red
Rock Throw 2HKOs Quilava and is super close to 1HKOing Zubat
Can sweep
=Morty=
Onix L23 @ Mint Berry
Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Gengar, has a roll to 1HKO L21 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L23 Haunter. Gengar and L23 Haunter outspeeds
Can sweep
=Chuck=
Onix L30
Dig 3HKOs Primeape. Poliwrath 1HKOs back

only beats Primeape
=Jasmine=
Onix L30
Dig 1HKOs the Magnemites and does little to Steelix. Steelix 2HKOs back
=Pryce=
Onix L31
Rock Throw 3HKOs Seel and Dewgong, and does little to Piloswine. Seel 3HKOs back, Poliswine 1HKOs back, Dewgong almost 1HKOs back

Only beats Seel
=Rival 4=
Onix L33-34
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and Haunter. The rest are 2HKOed by Rock Throw

Can sweep
=Clair=
Onix L38 @ Soft Sand
Soft Sand Dig 3HKOs the Dragonairs. Tbolt one almost 2HKOs back

Only beats TBolt Dragonair. Getting para'd by Dragonbreath results to a loss. Needs Soft Sand to get 3HKO
=Rival 5=
Onix L40
Rock Throw 2HKOs Golbat
Earthquake 2HKOs Sneasel and Typhlosion and 1HKOs the rest.

Can sweep
=Will=
Onix L40 @ Hard Stone
Outspeeds and 2HKOs L40 Xatu with Hard Stone Rock Throw. L40 Xatu almost 1HKOs back

Beats 1. If you don't 2HKO it, its bad.
=Koga=
Onix L40 @ Soft Sand
Soft Sand Earthquake 2HKOs Muk and Venomoth. After a Screech, it 3HKOs Forretress. Venomoth 2HKOs back
Rock Throw 3HKOs Ariados and is close to 3HKOing Crobat. Ariados almost 1HKOs back

Beats 3 or 4 barring hax
=Bruno=
Onix L41 @ Soft Sand
Soft Sand Earthquake 2HKOs Top, Lee and Onix and is close to 2HKOing Chan

Beats 2 or 3 at best
=Karen=
Onix L41 @ Soft Sand
Soft Sand Earthquake 5HKOs Umbreon and KOs Gengar after a Curse
Rock Throw 2HKOs Murkrow. Murkrow outspeeds and 2HKOs back, Houndoom outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Beats 1 at best
=Lance=
Onix L41
Rock Throw 3HKOs Aerodactyl, 2HKOs Charizard and is close to 4HKOing L47 Dragonites. Charizard outspeeds and 2HKOs back, Thunder Dnite can 2HKO back

Beats 1

I could go for D tier on this one. This one uses Union Cave Onix, which is the better one imo because Rocky has issue with obedience against Bugsy and its pretty trash against Falkner. It has uses against Bugsy, Whitney, Morty and Rival, but its quickly falls off post-Morty. This thing had like 45 Atk, and its rather hilarious seeing Onix 3HKOing Aerodactyl and close to 3HKOing Crobat with Rock Throw.

Farfetch'd

=Rival 3=
Farfetch'd L22
Peck 2HKOs Haunter after a Curse. Haunter outspeeds
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemite
Headbutt 3HKOs Quilava and puts Zubat in red. Quilava outspeeds and almost 3HKOs back

Beats 2 at best
=Morty=
Farfetch'd L25 @ Mint Berry
+2 Peck 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs the rest. Gengar and both Haunter outspeeds

Can sweep, but would need luck around Hypnosis(L21 Haunter might burn out Mint Berry)
=Chuck=
Farfetch'd L30
+2 Peck 1HKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Primeape outspeeds
+4 Peck puts Poliwrath in red

Needs to dodge DynamicPunch to sweep
=Jasmine=
Farfetch'd L30
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemites, but they 1HKO back

Bad
=Pryce=
Farfetch'd L31-32 @ Pink Bow
+2 Headbutt 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong
+4 Pink Bow Headbutt 1HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine.
Set-up 1 Agility to deal with Icy Wind speed drop and 2 Swords Dance. Seel 4HKOs back
It sweeps
=Rival 4=
Farfetch'd L34 @ Bitter Berry
All outspeeds bar Magnemite
+4 Peck 1HKOs Haunter and the rest are 1HKOed by +4 Return (including Magnemite)

Beats 4 if you set-up on Sneasel or possibly Haunter
Beats 3 if you set-up on Golbat
=Clair=
Farfetch'd L38 @ PRZCureBerry
+2 Return 2HKOs Kingdra and has a very high roll to 1HKO Dragonair. Kingdra outspeeds and does 3/4 hp back

Beats 3 Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Farfetch'd L40 @ Pink Bow
Set-up Agility and 3 SD
+6 Pink Bow Return 1HKOs all, including Magneton. Haunter is 1HKOed by +6 Peck

It sweeps
=Will=
Farfetch'd L40 @ Bitter Berry
+2 Return is super close to 1HKOing L40 Xatu. Xatu outspeeds and 2HKOs back

Pretty bad. You need Xatu to go for Confuse Ray turn 1 (if it goes for Psychic turn 1, you lose) and it has tendency to go for it again on turn 2, if you get hit by Confusion at +2, you get 1HKOed by Psychic. Even if you get the right set-up and 1HKO Xatu, you're only beating 2 at best.
=Koga=
Farfetch'd L40 @ Pink Bow
Set-up 3 SD and 1 Agility
+6 Peck 3HKOs Forretress and the rest are 1HKOed by +6 Return

You can sweep
=Bruno=
Farfetch'd L41
Return 3HKOs Top and is close to 2HKOing Chan. Chan outspeeds
+2 Return puts Top in red

Only beats Top. Can't SD sweep
=Karen=
Farfetch'd L41 @ Bitter Berry
+6 Peck 2HKOs Gengar while it kills itself with Curse afterwards. The rest are 1HKOed by +6 Return.

Completely luck reliant to get a sweep
=Lance=
Farfetch'd L42
Gyarados outspeeds and puts Farfetch'd in red with Rain Surf

Can't set-up here. Bad

D Tier. Swords Dance is cool, but Farfetch'd relies on that to make an impact due to low stats. That low stat made it struggle so hard on Elite 4.

 

[Xator_Nova]

I'm just not fond of using Rollout. On Rival 3, the 4th hit was close to 1HKOing Croconaw, but this one was based on the old log where i'm trying out making one prior to joining in In-Game Tier List, and I wasn't quite detailed on doing that log (Quilava was Level 21). Rival 4 seems a bit iffy due to Confuse Ray Golbat, but it could be fixed with a held Bitter Berry, i guess.

Anyway, Did another run with Chikorita alongside Gastly (No Trade), Onix (No Trade) and Farfetch'd

Chikorita

=Falkner=
Chikorita L12
Tackle is close to 3HKOing Pidgey and 5HKOing Pidgeotto. With Reflect up, Pidgeotto deals 7/34 hp back. Pidgeotto outspeeds
Razor Leaf 6HKOs Pidgeotto and is close to 3HKOing Pidgey.

its a loss even with Reflect.

At level 13
Tackle reliably 3HKOs Pidgey and 5HKOs Pidgeotto
Razor Leaf 5HKOs Pidgeotto and is close to 2HKOing Pidgey. Pidgeotto still outspeeds

You could possibly sweep if you got a lucky Razor Leaf crit against Pidgeotto, otherwise its still a loss
=Bugsy=
Bayleef L16 @ MiracleSeed
Tackle is close to 4HKOing Metapod and Kakuna and is barely scratching Scyther
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf is close to 3HKOing Metapod
=Rival 2=
Bayleef L16 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 3HKOs Gastly
Tackle 4HKOs Zubat.
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly and is close to 6HKOing Quilava. If you unfortunately got hit by Hypnosis despite accuracy drop, Gastly will Spite away Mud-Slap's 10 PP, Quilava outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

=Whitney=
Bayleef L19 @ MiracleSeed
Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Clefairy and has a roll to 5HKO Miltank. Miltank outspeeds

Fury Cutter 4HKOs Clefairy and the 5th hit is close to 1HKOing Miltank

Needs Fury Cutter to sweep
=Rival 3=
Bayleef L22 @ MiracleSeed
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Quilava.
Razor Leaf has a roll to 4HKO Magnemite
Mud-Slap 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after a Curse) and 2HKOs Magnemite
Beats 1 at best ( 2 or 3 with Mud-Slap)
=Morty=
Bayleef L23 @ Mint Berry
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Gastly
Mud-Slap 4HKOs L21 is close to 1HKOing Gastly after a Curse, 3HKOing L21 Haunter, and 6HKOing Gengar

Bad
=Chuck=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed / Mint Berry
Body Slam 2HKOs Primeape
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 3HKOs Poliwrath and has a roll to 3HKO Primeape

Needs Luck to sweep

As Meganium
Razor Leaf 2HKOs Poliwrath
Can reliably sweep
=Jasmine=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 5HKOs All. Steelix 2HKOs back, it goes for Screech if Bayleef is going for Reflect, which still 2HKOs afterwards
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemite

Bad without Mud-Slap

As Meganium
Razor Leaf 4HKOs Steelix.

You could sweep here with Mud-Slap + Reflect + PRZCureBerry, but you need luck to not get into 20 HP or less by the time you beat Steelix (or relying on dodging an Iron Tail), and Steelix has tendency to go for Screech turn 1.

=Pryce=
Bayleef L31 @ MiracleSeed
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong, and is close to 2HKOing Piloswine. Piloswine almost 1HKOs back with Blizzard, its Icy Wind deals almost half. Dewgong 2HKOs back and outspeeds Bayleef after a Speed drop

Only beats Seel

As Meganium
MiracleSeed Razor Leaf 2HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine, and puts Seel in red. Dewgong still outspeeds after an Icy Wind speed drop. Piloswine does 3/4 HP back.

Needs to dodge Blizzard to sweep
=Rival 4=
Meganium L33-34 @ Pink Bow / Bitter Berry
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Quilava and Sneasel, 3HKOs Magnemite and is close to 2HKOing Golbat
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs Haunter

Beats 3 or 4 barring hax. Can reliably beat 4 with the help of Synthesis barring hax

With Mud-Slap you could sweep barring hax. Synthesis greatly improves its chance to sweep. Use Reflect if Golbat decides to spam Wing Attack
=Clair=
Meganium L38 @ PRZCureBerry
Body Slam 4HKOs Kingdra and is close to 2HKOing the Dragonairs. Kingdra outspeeds, Dragonbreath does 1/4 and Hyper Beam does 1/3
Razor Leaf 5HKOs Kingdra

Beats 2 Dragonairs(preferably Surf and Tbolt one) at best. Could 1v1 Kingdra with Body Slam(Synthesis is helpful in this 1v1).

=Rival 5=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Sneasel, Golbat, 1HKOs Kadabra, 3HKOs Typhlosion and is close to 4HKOing Magneton. Typhlosion outspeeds and 2HKOs back.
Earthquake 1HKOs Magneton and Haunter and puts Typhlosion in red.

Beats 4 at best ( 5 with Earthquake TM)

=Will=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Jynx, 4HKOs Slowbro without Curse and is close to 2HKOing both Xatus and 3HKOing Exeggutor. Slowbro and both Xatu 3HKOs back, Jynx 2HKOs back, Exeggutor almost 2HKOs back.
Razor Leaf is close to 2HKOing Slowbro

Beats 1 or 2 at best

At Level 41
Even with Light Screen + Synthesis, i was only able to beat 3 mons because i ran out of Synthesis PP, and L40 Xatu had a tendency to hax down Meganium with Confuse Ray. Jynx and both Xatus outspeeds.
=Koga=
Meganium L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Venomoth and is close to 2HKOing Ariados, and 3HKOing Muk and Crobat.
Earthquake 2HKOs Muk
Beats 2 at best (Possibly 3 with Earthquake)
=Bruno=
Meganium L41 @ Pink Bow
Body Slam 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Lee, 4HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing Chan. Even with Reflect up, Machamp can 1HKO back with a crit Cross Chop
Razor Leaf 1HKOs Onix. Without Razor Leaf, it struggles against Onix as it chips you down with Sandstorm + Bind

With Reflect, it can beat 4 ( 3 without Razor Leaf)
=Karen=
Meganium L41 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Body Slam 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 4HKOing Umbreon and 3HKOing Vileplume
Earthquake KOs Gengar after a Curse
Houndoom outspeeds and 1HKOs back

Beats 2 at best (or 3 with Earthquake)
=Lance=
Meganium L44
Pink Bow Body Slam is close to 3HKOing Gyarados and 4HKOing L47 Dragonite

Beats 1 at best, needs Reflect + healing to possibly beat 2 (Gyarados + Thunder Dnite)

Ok, Chikorita has a good cases for a D Tier nomination, and I also want to go for D Tier mainly because the game design of GSC is just so awful towards Grass-types, so many stuff resisted it from start to finish. Ignoring that, I was able to sweep Falkner with Chikorita before, L13 Chiko was able to outspeed Pidgeotto from a memory. But it would mean you have to rely on a very high Speed DVs or something to get a more consistent sweep against Falkner. You really do need to reach level 32 for Gym 5-7, because Bayleef is meh on those, even its Pryce matchup is disappointing despite the type advantage. Synthesis is nice, but i recall of something related to Synthesis Torterra from DPPt tier list, but couldn't explain it but aside from it, i had some problems with it and those being 5 PP (this is big because how it would quickly ran out of PP due to how long Meganium beats something, and Ethers aren't buyable unlike Full Restore) restricted to play between 10AM - 6PM to make best used of it because it heals 1/4 hp during morning or night (this one isn't relevant) and i got strapped on moveslot. I had a moveslot of Reflect / Body Slam / Synthesis / Razor Leaf and wanted to fit Mud-Slap for Jasmine, and i had an issue doing so. Razor Leaf seems the easiest one to replace because it only hits few specific target (this assumes you beat Pryce first before Jasmine). Without Razor Leaf, i just lost to Bruno's Onix because i took too long to beat it with a Normal move while it slowly chips me down with Sandstorm + Bind. I tried going for Synthesis + dual screen at the late game, and one thing i don't like is having to put Earthquake TM on Meganium to have a better matchup against Rival in Victory Road only to get it deleted afterwards. I would rather used it on Grounds or something instead. Even with screens helping it tank more hits, Meganium could took long to take down something because its like a Normal-type attacker without a STAB, I took a little bit long to take down Bruno's Machamp that it got a crit Cross Chop and bypassed Reflect. That's also i want to mention, because after I got Body Slam at Level 31, Razor Leaf started to feel like its more of a glorified coverage move than an actual STAB move. Its damage compared to Body Slam is very little ; Miracle Seed Razor Leaf's 90 BP vs Body Slam's 85 BP (95 BP after a badge boost), not to mentioned its offenses on both side are near-identical (82 Atk vs 83 SpA), and Body Slam beats it not only with slightly higher damage, but also it isn't resisted a lot on boss fights unlike Razor Leaf, and has better side effect (30% para), I had some instances where unSTAB Body Slam dealt more damage than STAB Razor Leaf against neutral targets. I barely clicked Razor Leaf on routes as Meganium either unless i ran into some Water or Ground. If Chikorita went down to D Tier, then i'm fine with Cyndaquil being in C Tier.

I managed to beat Bruno without Razor Leaf, but maybe it has to do that I used Return instead of Body Slam. You are right that Razor Leaf is the most expendable move since it is barely useful after Jasmine. My endgame set was Return / Synthesis / Reflect / Light Screen. I didn't have the same issues as you did against Will because my Meganium was faster than Jynx and Xatu (Lv41, 8 Speed DVs), but maybe there was a stat variance between us which is probably significant enough to affect its viability. Since our experiences varied so much in the League then yeah, Chikorita moving down should be more representative of its performance.

 

[atsync]

Availability is definitely important, for sure. That's why anything post 7-badges is a hard sell for being higher than D. Time lapse is for sure significant. Most Pokemon around Morty off the top of my head are B with minor shades of A at best. I think the only exception to this is like...GS Magmar being A I wanna say?

As for the starters, their availability helps, but going back to what I said about Poliwag, I feel availability isn't AS meaningful if a Pokemon does not make good use of the extended time period available. Look at Pineco and Yanma. Both are available early, but they both still do nothing because they have poor battle performance.

In terms of getting a head start on the rest of the game with the starters, I consider anything that beats Faulkner and Bugsy fairly minimal. It's essentially an entire team against their ace. Almost any of the 6 remaining gyms, even Pryce, are way more difficult and to me matter more than Faulkner and Bugsy do.

It's been a bit since I used Totodile, but I honestly wasn't a super huge fan of its performance post-Morty. I felt it played very similarly to Squirtle in the Kanto games in that it's fine early on, but only really gets by later moreso on the defensive value of the Water typing rather than outright advantages, though being helpful for Clair and Lance is definitely a good thing. However, Totodile, of all the three starters, definitely requires the least about of effort to use, and there's something to be said for that. I just didn't see the big GSC super-S-plus game-breaker that people hyped it up as, just merely a great, serviceable Pokemon, albeit nothing more than that. I felt very similar about Squirtle in RBY - yes it had the Gym advantages but it also felt very generic toward the end of the game.

Cyndaquil definitely requires a lot of patience post-Whitney. It's not a huge task to get to level 31 for the midgame gyms, but even then I found Flame Wheel pretty unimpressive aside from Jasmine - Poliwrath obviously stuffs it, and I don't see why you'd want to use non-STAB Strength / Return on Pryce off of 64 Attack. From roughly level 20 to 36, Quilava's usefulness amounts to route fodder, Chuck's Primeape and Pryce's Piloswine (neither of which are formidable) and Jasmine. While these sound decent enough, I think failing to put a dent in both Whitney and Morty (without very niche TMs I doubt the average player would consider) and Clair severely outweigh the positives. I feel like it plays like a Normal type without the STAB during this period, and availability boost or no, it's noticeable - I think it's only easy to downplay because everything mook wise in this game is woefully underleveled.

Chikorita I'm personally fine with it staying in C. It's been discussed to death in the past but any availability boost and 500+ BST cannot compensate for something that floundering in major battles. D I think is overkill though - I mean, it IS Chikorita, but saying Chikorita belongs in the same tier as lategame garbage just doesn't feel right.

There's not much I disagree with here in terms of how things perform, but I'm not sure if you quite get what I'm arguing. I'm not just referring to availability in terms of how long something is on the team, I'm also talking about effort and investment. My argument is that Pokemon that are easier and less effortful to acquire and use don't necessarily need to have the same expectations in battles as something that is stronger but less readily accessible, because that superior accessibility makes up for any time/effort/team building costs that the player might receive on the battling side of things, so while you might dismiss Totodile as being "just merely a great, serviceable Pokemon" late-game, I happen to think that that is an excellent trait for a Pokemon that is given to you with basically no cost. And my view is that I think dropping the starters too far down the list doesn't quite get that balance right.

RBY Squirtle stuff that's slightly off-topic

I was not aware that you guys dropped RBY Squirtle down from top/S-tier until after the new article replaced my old one on the site. I chose not to get too heavily invested in the new RBY project when you asked me permission to have another go at it since it seemed inappropriate, but had I been, I would absolutely have opposed that decision for similar reasons. That's a topic for a different time though.

With that in mind, I also think the Yanma and Pineco examples you gave aren't really convincing. Yes, they are early mons that are bad/low-tier in spite of this, but they aren't just bad for their lacking power in battles, they are also bad because of the amount of time and effort involved in getting them to a usable state in the first place. Yanma in particular is a swarming Pokemon (1% default encounter that can be marginally increased with the Repel trick), and the DST trick isn't an out here because you have to get the phone number and then cycle all the way back to New Bark Town to do it, and then you have to cycle back to Route 35 to catch it and THEN you have to grind it, and all you're getting in return for most of the game is a mediocre Headbutt spammer (albeit one with enough Speed to benefit from flinches sometimes). In other words, it's a high effort-low reward Pokemon, and not something that I would consider analogous with the starters.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I honestly think some of these criticisms are overblown. If people are playing the game normally yet optimally, they're going to (and should) feed their Pokemon Vitamins. My Typhlosion with a few Calciums could reliably OHKO Machamp every time with Sun + Fire Blast, as my tests have proven.

Secondly, penalizing a Pokemon for TM use IMO is kinda counterproductive. It would be one thing if the TM itself is very hard or costly to obtain, but if we are not penalizing Pokemon because superior alternatives exist, why penalize Pokemon just because superior alternatives for the TM exist? Being able to learn multiple TMs sounds like more of a boon anyway, not something to penalize the mon for. If Cyndaquil cannot use Fury Cutter, he can use Rollout; if not Rollout, Dig; if not Dig, Return (possibly plus Rock Smash after Whitney). The badge boosts, combined with the relative ease of boosting happiness and the fact both the last two TMs are easy to get, makes Cynda an easy Pokemon to outfit anyway. He isn't beating Whitney reliably anyway; only against Morty is the presence of Dig/Rollout actually significant, and even with it, it's not a guaranteed or itemless victory.

 

[Xator_Nova]

I honestly think some of these criticisms are overblown. If people are playing the game normally yet optimally, they're going to (and should) feed their Pokemon Vitamins. My Typhlosion with a few Calciums could reliably OHKO Machamp every time with Sun + Fire Blast, as my tests have proven.

Secondly, penalizing a Pokemon for TM use IMO is kinda counterproductive. It would be one thing if the TM itself is very hard or costly to obtain, but if we are not penalizing Pokemon because superior alternatives exist, why penalize Pokemon just because superior alternatives for the TM exist? Being able to learn multiple TMs sounds like more of a boon anyway, not something to penalize the mon for. If Cyndaquil cannot use Fury Cutter, he can use Rollout; if not Rollout, Dig; if not Dig, Return (possibly plus Rock Smash after Whitney). The badge boosts, combined with the relative ease of boosting happiness and the fact both the last two TMs are easy to get, makes Cynda an easy Pokemon to outfit anyway. He isn't beating Whitney reliably anyway; only against Morty is the presence of Dig/Rollout actually significant, and even with it, it's not a guaranteed or itemless victory.

i can buy calcium for alakazam too, y'know
in other words
it doesn't mean anything because i can feed vitamins to anyone

also wtf, vitamins and game corner TMs?? you sure about that, bud?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

i can buy calcium for alakazam too, y'know

And you should, though good thing you can find some for free...it's not as expensive as you try to make out.

also wtf, vitamins and game corner TMs?? you sure about that, bud?

One Game Corner TM isn't hard to afford by the time you have disposed of Team Rocket in Goldenrod.

 

[ceal]

I'm putting together a pdf with all routes for Pokemon Perfect Crystal and want to add certain spots where top tier pokemon can suitably gain their recommended EVs.

If any of you could give your opinion on this it would be appreciated. Recommended Pokemon for new players to choose will help them progress without having to backtrack or start over with new Pokemon as often.


Is it easy to read? Is there something you think could be added? I will add a legend and denote which routes are most suitable for EV training specific top tier Pokemon.

Legend is:

• Surf
• Old Rod
• Good Rod
• Super Rod
• Headbutt
• Exception - for special encounters or changes from original Crystal which will have a table explaining how.
• % under the time of day means it is a land encounter
• Green check means you have to hit a tree.
• Green Check with a + will means that it is only a rare encounter when hitting a tree.
• Small Green check with % means that you can find on land and in tree.
• Blue Check means Surf or Fishing.

View attachment 432168

That's pretty impressive ngl, but unfortunately this thread pertains to base GSC only, not ROM hacks. I'm not sure if there's a different thread where it would be appropriate to post that, but you can certainly try looking or ask a moderator to make your own thread.