I was going to respond to some of the stuff Random Passerby listed in
this post, and I'm still going to, but before I do that I want to talk about some other stuff that I feel needs some significant adjustment with this list.
I want to talk about the current A-tier, and why I don't like it.
A Tier:
- Abra (No Trade)
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Gyarados (Red)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magmar (GS)
- Mareep (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper
So, as some of you might be aware, I was a pretty active "tester" during the previous thread for this list, to the point that I've basically used every single Johto Pokemon in Gold/Silver. I didn't test Ditto, Smeargle or Unown since I know that they are awful, and all of my testing was done in Gold and Silver so there are some things in Crystal like Cubone that I haven't really looked at. I don't mean to pretend that I know everything or that my opinion is the most important or whatever, but I think I was able to get a decent feel for which Pokemon are good and bad for in-game runs, and what niches certain things might be able to fill.
So when I look at the current A-tier and consider my own experiences with them from playing the game...A-tier just feels like a mess, and I don't think all of those Pokemon really belong together. I do think most of these Pokemon are technically "good", but I think there are a handful of Pokemon that stand out from the rest that aren't quite good enough for S-tier, but are good enough to belong in a tier above the rest, who probably belong more in B-tier or possibly lower. I personally think that A-tier needs to be much smaller and more exclusive that what is listed here at the moment.
To go through them one by one:
Abra (no trade)
I strongly disagree with this placement because as far as I'm concerned, Abra is S-tier regardless of whether you can evolve it or not. That's not to say that trade vs. no trade doesn't make a difference - in my experience there were a handful of times where Kadabra's slightly lower power or bulk came into play - but an untraded Abra is still far better than any other Pokemon in the game aside from Totodile and Alakazam itself, and enough so to place it in S-tier above the rest in my opinion.
Note that my personal philosophy re: distinguishing between trade vs. no trade is that it should only be done if either:
- Trading for the final form is sufficient of an improvement to better its tier placement
- Trading has a significant impact on how the Pokemon functions
Gastly would be a good example of such a Pokemon since the lack of elemental punches on Haunter makes it much worse and forces it to use different strategies (more reliance on the one-time Shadow Ball TM, Rain Dance + Thunder, etc.). But I don't think Abra really fits this description at all.
I propose that the
Abra (no trade) listing be deleted, and the Abra (trade) entry be changed to just "Abra" to cover both. But if both entries MUST be included, move the untraded entry to S-tier alongside the trade one.
Gastly (trade)
I agree with dropping this down, probably to C-tier. Gengar is pretty strong but getting to that point in incredibly burdensome due to Gastly's lack of power. Gastly has some niche uses with Curse in some match-ups and Hypnosis is clutch sometimes, and Ghost/Poison is an excellent defensive typing early-game, but Lick is just too low in power and PP for Gastly to be especially helpful in getting you through the first half of Johto quickly and efficiently.
Geodude
I have flip-flopped on this one a few times but I currently feel that A-tier is a bit generous. Geodude is quite polarizing in its performance, and if you were ranking it only on its early-game performance then it would be a comfortable A-tier Pokemon (I think its match-ups during this time are technically positive although not exactly consistent in some cases). But once you get past Ecruteak, Geodude's performance is not really that impressive - it's slow, has troublesome weaknesses and match-ups, and frankly isn't really THAT powerful (Dig isn't really that strong in the long-run, especially for a 2-turn move, Magnitude is inconsistent, Rock Throw is weak and inaccurate, but I guess Strength is ok and Earthquake will eventually arrive?). Like, if Geodude wasn't available during the first half of the game it would be a C-tier a best (I mean at least it has all those Poison-types from Team Rocket to bully), so I feel that if you are assessing Geodude's contributions through-out the whole game and not just the parts where it's actually great I think B-tier is probably a better fit.
From my own testing I don't feel that strongly about splitting Geodude's entries by trade. Golem is a slight improvement but I don't think it really addresses Geodude's issues in the same way that Gengar addresses Gastly's faults. Due to its polarising typing, Geodude is a Pokemon that functions more on how its stats are distributed rather than what the actual numbers are. I would probably just combine them, just like Abra.
Red Gyarados
I support this staying in A-tier despite its "late" appearance. While its physical move pool is slightly narrow and its SpA is disappointing, I think its high catch level and overall stats, strong immediate move options and utility, and its status as a GUARANTEED encounter with high DVs push it above the other non-starter Water-type options like Lapras and co.. Note that while I normally have a bit of a distaste for ranking things highly purely on HM compatibility, Gyarados is able to learn all 3 Water HMs, and I think that I noteworthy simply because many of the other "decent/good" Waters actually can't learn Waterfall in gen 2, including Feraligatr, Lapras, Tentacruel, Slowbro/king and Quagsire. The fact that it provides this perk while still being a battle-worthy Pokemon that is a guaranteed encounter and that requires minimal investment is just a great niche and one I can't understate in its usefulness.
Ho-oh (G)/Lugia (S)/Suicune (C)
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but...I don't think these Pokemon are good enough for A-tier, and this was before people started proposing that we exclude Kanto (which I agree with). For me, it's a matter of "too little too late". They miss out on so much of the game and do require a bit of a side-track (admittedly not a huge one in relation to what you might have to go through in later generations), and to be perfectly honest I don't think that the power they offer is all that much of an upgrade from what you might expect from a player's current team by the time they gain the ability to catch them. Generally the value they offer will increase if you are using a larger team with lower levels or a team of inferior Pokemon, but if you are using a "standard" team of something like Feraligatr/Kadabra/Fearow/Gyarados then the side-track mostly just feels wasteful.
I do think they are still good enough for B-tier since technically they ARE guaranteed to do something useful against the Elite 4 (or Clair, assuming you are comfortable trying to catch them without the Master Ball).
Magmar (GS)
More than happy for GS Magmar to stay in A-tier although it is maybe the most borderline of the Pokemon that I think should qualify. This is basically Cyndaquil on steroids, gaining all its good moves way faster and not having to bother with Rollout, Fury Cutter or other inconsistent gimmicks to pretend that its better in match-ups than it actually is like Cyndaquil has to. Gaining Flamethrower at level 41 is a massive boon too, and makes up for the lower SpA it had compared to Typhlosion most of the time. It does have a few troublesome match-ups though (although technically I think it has more positive than negative) and it will require a brief grind, although catching Magmar and getting it from level 16 is less time consuming that grinding a Tauros.
Mareep
Another Pokemon that I support staying in A-tier due to its early availability, fast growth rate and evolutions, good move pool and solid overall match-ups. Fire/Electric coverage is really good in this game and Mareep is one of the best options for providing it. Main issues are a lack of Speed and the brief Tackle period at the start.
Miltank/Tauros
Have already said my piece on these guys but basically I don't think they are enough going for them to be placed above the other Normal-types. I would drop both of them to B-tier for now.
Nidoran-F/Nidoran-M
I don't think these are quite good enough for A-tier either. They are decent, highly splash-able Pokemon due to their move pools and balanced stats, but the lack of strong STAB for most of the game (still no Dig for them), the annoying back-track for the Moon Stone, and the rather shaky Johto match-ups hurt them quite a bit (although massive shout-out to Double Kick as anti-Miltank tech).
Psyduck
Eh...this is a good Water-type mostly due to the convenience it offers over other Water-types (Waterfall access, lesser back-track, available fully evolved immediately, access to its complete move pool right away, etc.) but I don't think that it stands head and shoulders above stuff like Lapras and Tentacool, which offer different advantages. I think this should drop to B-tier with the other mid-game Waters.
Teddiursa (C)
Hard support for A-tier. Literally the only thing keeping it from S-tier is availability since it is a nightmare to catch early on and the only back-up is to catch Ursaring in Dark Cave after obtaining Surf. But otherwise, this thing is just broken, packing absurd power and coverage and being one of the most splash-able Pokemon in the game.
Wooper
I think this should drop to B-tier. While it is really great in the long-term, Wooper is really not very good. Union Cave does at least give it a bit of a head start and lets it support Cyndaquil decently through that part but it is very slow and just lacks power with only Water Gun, Mud-Slap and Slam/Headbutt for damage. It improves significantly when it evolves and gets Ice Punch and Surf though, but the Wooper phase is so bad that I do wonder if it would be preferable just to skip it and catch Quagsire after getting Surf. Even after this though it is relying a bit on Special moves coming from an off stat AND its very slow
I think dropping it to C-tier is a bit harsh because outside of its stats I think it is a good Water-type and decent match-ups, at least on par with Lapras and co. in B-tier. Earthquake as a level-up move is very rare too. It just takes too long to show its worth to qualify for A-tier.
To summarise:
Remove Abra (no trade) entirely, or move it up to S-tier
Merge Geodude's entries
Keep Red Gyarados, Magmar, Mareep and Teddiursa in A-tier
Drop Gastly (trade) to C-tier, and drop everything else to B-tier
Random Passerby I apologise if it feels like I'm stepping on your toes here since I know this would be a drastic change, and I'm not expecting everything proposed here to go through or anything, but I just felt like this was something that was worth opening up for discussion.
Anyway to comment on some of the stuff you wanted opinions on:
Agree.
Snubbull (Crystal) -> B (rise)
I also agree with this, and I actually think you could make a case for A-tier. This is basically just Ursaring in function, with a better experience group and more convenient availability to make up for the minor drop in stats and lack of Dig.
I also think you could make a case for GS Snubbull for B-tier. The need for swarm manipulation (and the associated back-track) is inconvenient but once you get around that it is still a worthy battler with more power and versatility to offer than some of the other Normal-types available at that time, and it still has its Fast growth rate and early evolution.
Agreed as stated previously.
Spearow -> S (remain) or A(drop)
This is another thing I have changed my mind a lot on. I can sympathize with those who think it should drop since it obviously has issues with its move coverage and STAB options (even Pidgeotto's Wing Attack does more than Fearow's Peck) and it is lacking in positive match-ups against important trainers.
The one thing I love about Spearow is that it has Flying STAB as soon as you catch it, which is more than can be said for Pidgey and Hoothoot, the other early-route birds. Given that most of the trainers prior to Falkner are using bugs or Bellsprout, this is a massive advantage over pretty much all the other early-route Pokemon. They are realistically going to need to grind against wilds at least a bit to start being "good", but Spearow literally does not need this since it can just be thrown out against all the Caterpie and stuff for free experience while still making forward progress in the game. This is actually a significant head-start that realistically makes up for any issues it might run into regarding not being able to hit random Hiker #2's Geodude in my opinion.
Having said that, I still find its S-tier status to be slightly shaky, and given that we seem to be in the process of dropping other Pokemon down the list, perhaps dropping Spearow down to A-tier is ok (and maybe it makes more sense for it to be 1 tier above Rattata/Sentret/Tauros/Miltank/etc rather than 2 tiers - it's better than the rest but maybe not THAT much better).
1) Kingdra / Seadra -> Merge or separate? Which ranks? I'm leaning towards B or C.
Not really convinced that Seadra and Kingdra are that much different to be honest. While technically you can get Dragon Scale as soon as you get Seadra, realistically this isn't likely to happen without a ton of time wasting so most likely Kingdra is only going to be around for the last routes and the Elite 4, after the side-track into Mt. Mortar. Kingdra is also not a massive improvement over Seadra given that Seadra has identical SpA and Speed to Kindra, and Dragon isn't really a great offensive typing so getting STAB on Twister/Dragonbreath is not that important (like what relevant Pokemon takes more damage from that instead of Surf or Icy Wind?). Main advantage would be improved bulk and better defensive typing which will matter in some match-ups, but I still don't think it makes for enough of an improvement to bother with a separate entry unless you start doing sub-tiers or something.
I don't agree with B-tier mostly for availability reasons. The Horsea line is decent but its mostly just a generic Water that arrives later than a significant pool of the available Pokemon, and in an inconvenient location at that. I think it's more on par with other lower-tier Waters like Mantine and Goldeen overall.
2) Pinsir -> I am looking at C for this.
Scyther -> This seems similar to Pinsir except it can't use Strength. I think C or D would be fine.
Frankly I think Pinsir, Heracross and Scyther should all be in the same tier, wherever that is. Because of their thin move pools, they rely on Normal coverage more most of the game, which basically makes them Normal-types but without the STAB boost. The are still reasonably strong but even Aipom does more damage than them most of the time!
Scyther is slightly weaker than them stat-wise, but it at least has the ability to use STAB Wing Attack from level 30 onwards, which does comparable damage to Pinsir's Strength to neutral targets, although it's weaker than Return. Wing Attack can hit things super-effectively though so sometimes Scyther will be stronger.
Anyway I would say somewhere below B-tier is reasonable for all of these Bugs. C-tier is probably a good fit for now.
4) Wooper -> This really sucks more than I remember. Leaning towards C although I can be convinced to let it be B. Doesn't look like A at all.
As stated above I agree with Wooper dropping but lean toward B-tier.
5) Sandshrew -> From what I see, this seems like an inferior Geodude so far. It also demands the Dig and Rollout support so you can't use Cyndaquil, for example. Probably C because of Defense Curl + Rollout is cheap.
This is a decent Pokemon but it is heavily reliant on TMs to do much. C-tier for now.
8) Stantler -> This thing has a barren movepool and doesn't do much in Gyms. I am leaning towards C (drop) but can be persuaded to leave it at B.
Strongly disagree with this being in C-tier. As I've said before, Stantler is interchangeable overall with Tauros and co., just with its own advantages and disadvantages. Stantler's advantages is simply the higher convenience of its availability since it is much, MUCH more common than Miltank and Tauros combined. I would rank it in B-tier with the bull and cow.
9) Seel -> Not used this before so no comment.
This is just Lapras-lite. I view it as being more on par with Seadra/Kingdra and the other "average" Waters just for availability issues. Ice Beam as a level-up move is nice but it comes a bit late unless you delay evolution, which would leave you weakened against stuff like Steelix. So...wherever Mantine and stuff end up is where I'd put Seel, so C-tier for now I guess?
10) Zubat -> I would rather use the Friend Ball Mt. Mortar Golbat to get Crobat by Lv 21 lol. This does take time and resources as well as the Return TM so I can leave it at C.
Friend Ball strat is ok for this I guess, but keep in mind that you need Surf to get the required Friend Ball, which conflicts with going for Golbat in Mt. Mortar to take advantage of Bite against Morty. In any case, Crobat is basically Scyther but with more Speed, less Attack, and a different typing. If Scyther is in C-tier then Zubat fits there too I guess.
11) Gengar -> I forgot about this. Do people think this is A or what? I think it should be downgraded to B or C because it really is deadweight before Lv25. The "defensive prowess" doesn't really help that much.
Drop to C-tier as stated above.