GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[ttr]

Yep, casual players aren't speed runners and likely don't give two shits about maximizing efficiency. That's for novice players who want to do well but also enjoy the game, the players whom we actually should be helping and keeping in mind, not speed runners or casuals, at least that's my opinion. Like why even make a tier list if it's not to inform people so they can make better choices in their gameplay? And who are we informing if not people who actually want or need it, such as people who want to actually know how to get through the game more easily?

I've always seen efficiency in terms of the main game as focusing on what works well in getting through the bosses / routes with little effort. For a personal example, way back in 2016 I used the old version of the Black / White tier list as kinda a gut check, not knowing any pokemon in Unova, so the list served a check to see if something was worth spending my time with. Now, the tier lists have really moved beyond that first version and are far, far more helpful (especially the revised version), but I don't really think anything involving the daycare is really efficient in any in-game sense. I'll be honest, if you tell me that breeding a Pokémon is the best way to use it, I'm probably not using it. If I have to spend time breeding and leveling it up as opposed to something I can catch/get and throw into a battle, I'm going to go with the faster option. I can catch a good pokemon and go into battles confidently rather than spending time with something else.

Some of the mechanics in Pokémon are not really important to know when plowing through the story mode, On average, I usually take 15-30 Hours to complete a story mode in a Pokémon game, and I've been playing since 2002. Nowadays, I don't want to waste time on something that takes actual time to grind. The daycare is an afterthought for my story playthroughs, If something takes explicit time to grind up I'm not doing it. I don't care if the Pokémon is better, ill just use something else. That's how I look at these lists, if something takes too much time and effort to use rather than clicking A on the enemy, it is less efficient. I look to these lists (even in testing forms like this) to see if something is taking too much time to go through. For example, Slowpoke is something that in GSC appears to be something better to get later on in the game, I want to know that, it saves me time grinding a slowpoke through the early game. Time is a major factor here in terms of efficiency. If I'm spending time grinding or breeding a Pokémon, that is time I can be doing literally anything else.

1) You get to use an Eeveelution much earlier, if you're going the Espeon or Umbreon route. We have already broached the topic of earlier or later access to a Pokemon, and I think considering earlier access to a powerful Eeveelution shouldn't be easily discarded. Between the higher base happiness and the ability to control the place where they're born so you can just level up in that particular spot to double the happiness gains, you can get Espeon or Umbreon earlier and at a much lower level than you likely would in the main playthrough. I can test this out for you if I'm not convinced.

My answer here (and goes for what I said before) is that efficiency is broader than just what is the "best" way to use a pokemon. Being given a pokemon is honestly the most efficient way to use it. There is 0 effort on the player to get and use it. Anything more than that is spending time on something when I could be using a Pinsir or Snubbull.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Well are these lists for casual play or efficient play? Who are these lists for really?

Casual players aren’t speed runners. Casual players aren’t even likely to be looking up the most efficient Pokémon to use for their play through, they’ll just play the game. Nor will they be using a 4 Pokémon team limit, they’ll use 6.

Whoever we’re making these lists for, we trust them to understand all of our arbitrary rules so it really shouldn’t be too extreme to say a certain Pokémon is better off hatched from an egg, if that is indeed the case.

The ingame tier lists are designed with casual playthroughs in mind (with no intentional glitches or RNG Manipulation) and assume the player is at the very least, competent at the game (in other words, the player knows what they are doing and can effectively make use of whatever tools they can). It is much easier to tier this way because "casual player" (or "average player") is far too nebulous a term to even consider.

I recall a post by Colonel M in one of the threads on this forum a few years ago (I don't remember where it was, but I do remember it being made) where he used a proposed Fire Emblem tier list on different forum that was "designed for the average player" to succinctly demonstrate why assuming the player is average is a no-go. Basically, one user in that FE Thread undermined the entire premise of the list by pointing out things like "Is X allowed or is it too advanced for an average player?", "Does the average player know about strategy Y?", and various other piercing questions that demonstrate how stupid it would be to make assumptions about what the "average player" knows and does not know. And I can guarantee very similar arguments can be made in these threads to show why we should assume competence instead of average. Everyone has their own definition of average and this varies far too wildly to the point that it would be a really bad idea.

Ideally, the Pokémon should tiered based on how efficiently they can help you clear the game. Totodile is clearly S-Rank because it's good from the get go, gives you a Surf outlet, handles many fights very well, and is just all around good. Unown is clearly F-Rank because it's slow to raise, it only has one move whose BP and Type is not set in stone, it has poor stats outside of the earlygame, and all around slows you down significantly. It's about clearing fights with consistency and clearing them quickly.

Mind you, I have my own qualms about efficient playthroughs, since it feels like it wants to both be and not be a speedrun and tends to end up being some sort awkward middle-ground. But the way I would describe the premise of these Tier lists is as a question:

Let's say I want to play through a Pokémon game casually with a decently-sized team. Given this, which Pokémon would be the most efficient to beat the game with?

EDIT: Found the Colonel M post I was looking for. Nice to look back on where I once was and where I am now. :)

 

[DHR-107]

1) You get to use an Eeveelution much earlier, if you're going the Espeon or Umbreon route. We have already broached the topic of earlier or later access to a Pokemon, and I think considering earlier access to a powerful Eeveelution shouldn't be easily discarded. Between the higher base happiness and the ability to control the place where they're born so you can just level up in that particular spot to double the happiness gains, you can get Espeon or Umbreon earlier and at a much lower level than you likely would in the main playthrough. I can test this out for you if I'm not convinced.

2) You get to optimize the Eeveelution in question, not unlike waiting for a Friend Ball to snag Tauros or Golbat instead of just using an Ultra Ball that ironically would be more time-efficient and what not. Espeon in particular has the advantage of destroying Morty and Chuck with ease and easily leveling up in Morty's own gym by taking advantage of Confusion (learned at L16), a move Bill's Eevee would not be able to learn due to already being way past the level for it. Flareon and Jolteon also get Ember and Thundershock this way so you don't have to wait till the super-expensive GC TMs to utilize their type advantages, allowing the two to perform better in certain gyms than they would otherwise.

IMO its better for Espeon in particular to evolve between 30 and 36 if you're going that route. Mostly because you get access to Special Bite which from Espeon's monstrous Special Attack Stat really does work on top of your speed and your Flinch Chance. STAB Headbutt Eevee isn't awful (its fine for route mons) and the Dark/Psychic combo beats most of the E4 (including beating 2 of Karen's mons) without really breaking a sweat. Eevee becomes weaker earlier on, but you basically get an auto win condition vs the E4 in it.

I honestly wouldn't rate any of the Eeveelutions particularly highly anyway due to their mechanics (and for three of them unavailability in Johto in GS) because happiness does take time, and none of their movepools are particularly stellar in any way. Espeon is arguably the best one, and I don't think it should be any higher than B, even with an almost perfect sweep of the E4 (with Bite/Psybeam).

Also: I don't think we here should go into the depths of eggs and stuff for the content of this list. It would become very troublesome. If people want to breed a mon during a playthrough then let them. I in fact did this to get Leech Seed Chikorita, but it took me a fairly long time because the original Hoppip I caught (to pass on Leech) was considered a "Relative" of the Chikorita, something which can happen in GSC due to how the familial inheritance works with eggs.

If the Defense IVs of two partners are the same, and the Special IVs are either the same or differ by 8, the two Pokémon are incompatible. This is due to the high likelihood of a family relation, hence the inability to breed.

Gen 2 is the only time this can happen, as most other games actively encourage interbreeding. Bulba isn't hugely reliable, but I am sure this has been confirmed before. So I had to go catch another Hoppip, train that till it learnt Leech and then pass that down. Was a bit of an issue on top of the time it takes to hatch the eggs.

 

[Celeb]

This thread has been lacking common sense for a while. I am aware that these forums are for fun and discussion in one's free time but at this point it's starting to become tiresome to read about new innovative tactics instead of Pokemon. Volt already put it quite nicely.

Aegon, you are not writing a guide for casual players. Write-ups mention additional informations (e.g. where to find specific evolutionary items or when will happiness evolution most likely occur) but to suggest describing the whole process of breeding just to acquire specific benefits (like Thundershock on Jolteon) is bothersome. I honestly find your example of Eevee very interesting and I might even try doing this myself but it's obviously not for this thread - you spend time searching for low encounter Ditto, putting Pokemon to Daycare, waiting for the egg and then hatching it. Suggesting to acquire 100 point of friendship (eggs start with 120, right?) within 10 levels is also just insane at this point. By the time someone does all of this, the other player will beat Morty and probably face Chuck. Eevee is not abysmal, it plays just fine so there is not reason to go to such lengths to slightly improve it.

Revelation points out a wonderful thing here as well. This thread picks and chooses very specific rules and guidelines to follow which will not correspond to everyone's playstyle. Obviously, it is not possible to create a set of guidelines that will suit everyone but we can narrow it down. How many people will use 4 Pokemon and actually be on par with E4 when playing? How many people will know or will bother to read about DST trick? How many people will want to spend some time in Game Corner to get essential TMs?

Pretending to not know about emulators and people save stating to get 5500 coins within an hour to then roflstomp trainers with Fire Blast Quilava is something everyone accepted at this point. Why are we suddenly discussing spending time breeding an Eevee and DSTricking your way to the evolutionary stone to acquire EMBER on Flareon?

============================

I think so far, the verdict seems to be
Snubbull (Crystal) -> B (rise)

Need more opinions on
8) Stantler -> This thing has a barren movepool and doesn't do much in Gyms. I am leaning towards C (drop) but can be persuaded to leave it at B.

I approve Snubbull raising and disagree with Stantler falling. Lack of coverage is indeed troublesome but Stantler deals amazing damage with STAB (easily clearing routes) and Hypnosis has its uses. It wins unfavourable match-ups like Chuck with a bit of luck.

 

[atsync]

I think breeding is technically fair game but I can't really think of any practical situations where it would be preferable to spend that time breeding for higher base happiness or special moves or whatever, and if it IS judged to be the best way to use a particular Pokemon...then that Pokemon probably sucks.

In regards to Eevee specifically, don't underestimate it. An unevolved Eevee isn't exactly cut out for gyms but it still handles Routes pretty well with just its STAB moves, which are further bolstered by badge boosts. The fact that it comes at level 20 is also a nice advantage compared to other choices you have at that point.

Espeon with Confusion might be better against Morty or whatever but I don't think that breeding a fresh Eevee to access it is the most optimal way to use it. I'd rather just stick with Eevee until at least level 30 until it gets Bite and then try to evolve in time for Psybeam at level 36 (i.e. the approach DHR talks about above).

Umbreon can be handled similarly. It actually needs Bite less though since Shadow Ball is similar in power (lower BP after STAB but Umbreon's Attack stat is slightly higher and you also get a badge boost). If Shadow Ball is being used by something else then go for Bite then obviously.

I think breeding for Thundershock Jolteon and Ember Flareon is not worth it either. For Jolteon, I would take a similar approach to Espeon, which is use Eevee until you have access to Thunderstone, Rain Dance AND Thunder, and THEN evolve it. Make use of Eevee's decent power early on and then use your STAB Thunder to destroy stuff late game. As a bonus, your likely Water-type partner is supported by Rain Dance. Bite could be thrown in as an optional bonus and would differentiate it from Raikou a bit since Raikou is probably looking to use a similar strategy.

Flareon would be similar with Fire Blast and maybe Sunny Day. The lack of PP is an issue but Flareon benefits from a mammoth 130 Attack so it can make use of stuff like Headbutt or Return against weaker Pokemon to preserve PP, leaving Fire Blast for more powerful opponents (it would be similar to Entei in that sense, but lacking SolarBeam).

(Ideally DST trick would be allowed in these cases since it's really the only reliable way to obtain stones in Crystal, especially is Kanto is excluded).

When tiering Psyduck, I think we should either split GS/C or very clearly talk about their differences in the write-up. GS Psyduck comes at a time when you have Surf already. C Psyduck comes pre-Bugsy and is stuck with Scratch until 16 (nine levels) when it gets Confusion. It picks up Ice Punch in Goldenrod, but does not get a Water move until you can pick up Surf pre-Morty. If we assume everyone is skipping Ilex grass-encounter Psyduck and picking it up after Surf, that needs to be made clear.

I think the post-Surf approach is best in all games so I would be inclined to have one entry and just mention the alternate approach in Crystal and why it isn't optimal as an additional comment.

It's been a long time since I used Geodude, but I noticed you didn't mention Rollout.

Considering just how much that move has been redeeming Quilava's truly atrocious mid-game, I can't help but wonder if it helps Geodude too. Especially since it gets STAB and Defense Curl by level-up.

Also, EQ by level-up just in time for the E4? Sweet.

Golem has 120 base Attack. Even using Dig and Rock Throw, it'll still hit really hard.

I also can't ignore its early game performance, it's just absurd how Geodude steamrolls through that part of the game.

It's also a very reliable mon on routes, especially with all the Rocket Poison-types running around. It will run into the occasional mismatch, but Golem is a very solid mon.

I think it should stay at A.

Still not convinced because the late-game is still not that impressive but I'm not vehemently opposed to A if there's enough support for it.

Golem has 110 Atk in GSC (it got buffed to 120 in gen 6 though).

I personally am not a fan of Rollout for consistency reasons but I guess if we're going in the direction of giving things high credit for being able to use it in match-ups or whatever then...sure. Not that Rollout from such a slow Pokemon is going to help a lot against Kingdra/Poliwrath/Steelix (X Speed can help a bit in the case of the former I guess?).

EQ is learned at level 41. It might get there in time depending on the team but sometimes it'll fall a bit short so you'd have to use more grinding or maybe a handful of Rare Candies. It is still a decent niche though since if you can reach that level it frees the TM up for something else.

About the Seadra / Kingdra comparison, the bulk actually mattered against Will and Karen's Houndoom (who can OHKO Seadra with Crunch ). It took me about 30 minutes to get the Dragon Scale by spamming Thief on Horsea. / Seadra. It is pretty easy to find Seadra in Lugia's chamber and it is only a short trip from Cianwood.

The rest I agree / no opinion on.

Oh I'm aware that the bulk will come into play sometimes. I'm just not certain if it should really have a huge enough impact to justify a tier split and feel that you could easily just mention it in additional comments or whatever.

30 minutes still seems like a long time for a grind like that. I still have nightmares about the 2+ hour grind I put myself through for Metal Coat from Magnemite but Horsea/Seadra are more common in that section than Magnemite is on Route 38 so I guess the expected time spent grinding would be lower. My preferred approach with Seadra > Kingdra was to use Thief on any Horsea I encountered until I found my first Seadra and caught it. If I was lucky enough to find a Dragon Scale before the catch then I would certainly evolve Seadra right away, but if I still didn't have one by the time I caught Seadra I wouldn't be compelled to continue looking at that point since I didn't think being able to survive Magnemite's Thunderbolt or whatever was really worth the time risk. May as well just use Seadra and its identical SpA/Speed until you can grab the Mt. Mortar Dragon Scale with Waterfall.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I personally am not a fan of Rollout for consistency reasons but I guess if we're going in the direction of giving things high credit for being able to use it in match-ups or whatever then...sure. Not that Rollout from such a slow Pokemon is going to help a lot against Kingdra/Poliwrath/Steelix (X Speed can help a bit in the case of the former I guess?).

I'm not a fan of it either, especially since it locks you in the move.

But it's hard to ignore that 2 rolls are better than Rock Throw and that's ignoring Defense Curl.

Also, can confirm that Rollout's 90% accuracy and Johto's RNG fiesta can and will mess with your sweep attempts.

Good points as usual though.

Honestly, I'd keep Golem at A just because of how reliable it is on physical battles and how dominant it is on the early-game when your mons are at their weakest. (Except Quilava, but you get my point. )

 

[Random Passerby]

Don't have time to do long responses but I will say that breeding just sounds tedious and inefficient as your time is better spent doing something else.

Random Passerby question on the overleveling rule: how does this apply to pokémon with outsider bonus? I get the impression that they end up overleveling unless you deliberately hold back, and if you do so, then they aren't that good. kenya for example doesn't seem as valuable once you deliberately set out to keep it on par with the team. this doesn't mean the ruleset should change or anything, I'm just thinking on how to test them for your list if I approach them

My opinion on that you should just go with what feels natural to you instead of letting me decide on the rigid rules. Normally, I will keep my mons within a range of 3-5 levels with each other. As a rule of thumb, I think late twenties / early thirties for Chuck to Pryce then mid-thirties at Clair sounds reasonable.

Random Passerby, when do you plan on catching Raikou? You could use the Master Ball to catch him unless you want to try your luck and catch him ''normally'' (although that's less ''efficient''), but given Raikou's naturally high level, you could likely use five mons in your team efficiently up till the E4. You could make the Geodude a permanent fixture in your team without costing anyone else their experience or even use someone else.

There's an easy way to keep encountering the Legendary Beasts here so I'll grab them normally

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I think breeding is technically fair game but I can't really think of any practical situations where it would be preferable to spend that time breeding for higher base happiness or special moves or whatever, and if it IS judged to be the best way to use a particular Pokemon...then that Pokemon probably sucks.

In regards to Eevee specifically, don't underestimate it. An unevolved Eevee isn't exactly cut out for gyms but it still handles Routes pretty well with just its STAB moves, which are further bolstered by badge boosts. The fact that it comes at level 20 is also a nice advantage compared to other choices you have at that point.

Espeon with Confusion might be better against Morty or whatever but I don't think that breeding a fresh Eevee to access it is the most optimal way to use it. I'd rather just stick with Eevee until at least level 30 until it gets Bite and then try to evolve in time for Psybeam at level 36 (i.e. the approach DHR talks about above).

Umbreon can be handled similarly. It actually needs Bite less though since Shadow Ball is similar in power (lower BP after STAB but Umbreon's Attack stat is slightly higher and you also get a badge boost). If Shadow Ball is being used by something else then go for Bite then obviously.

I think breeding for Thundershock Jolteon and Ember Flareon is not worth it either. For Jolteon, I would take a similar approach to Espeon, which is use Eevee until you have access to Thunderstone, Rain Dance AND Thunder, and THEN evolve it. Make use of Eevee's decent power early on and then use your STAB Thunder to destroy stuff late game. As a bonus, your likely Water-type partner is supported by Rain Dance. Bite could be thrown in as an optional bonus and would differentiate it from Raikou a bit since Raikou is probably looking to use a similar strategy.

Flareon would be similar with Fire Blast and maybe Sunny Day. The lack of PP is an issue but Flareon benefits from a mammoth 130 Attack so it can make use of stuff like Headbutt or Return against weaker Pokemon to preserve PP, leaving Fire Blast for more powerful opponents (it would be similar to Entei in that sense, but lacking SolarBeam).

(Ideally DST trick would be allowed in these cases since it's really the only reliable way to obtain stones in Crystal, especially is Kanto is excluded).



I think the post-Surf approach is best in all games so I would be inclined to have one entry and just mention the alternate approach in Crystal and why it isn't optimal as an additional comment.



Still not convinced because the late-game is still not that impressive but I'm not vehemently opposed to A if there's enough support for it.

Golem has 110 Atk in GSC (it got buffed to 120 in gen 6 though).

I personally am not a fan of Rollout for consistency reasons but I guess if we're going in the direction of giving things high credit for being able to use it in match-ups or whatever then...sure. Not that Rollout from such a slow Pokemon is going to help a lot against Kingdra/Poliwrath/Steelix (X Speed can help a bit in the case of the former I guess?).

EQ is learned at level 41. It might get there in time depending on the team but sometimes it'll fall a bit short so you'd have to use more grinding or maybe a handful of Rare Candies. It is still a decent niche though since if you can reach that level it frees the TM up for something else.



Oh I'm aware that the bulk will come into play sometimes. I'm just not certain if it should really have a huge enough impact to justify a tier split and feel that you could easily just mention it in additional comments or whatever.

30 minutes still seems like a long time for a grind like that. I still have nightmares about the 2+ hour grind I put myself through for Metal Coat from Magnemite but Horsea/Seadra are more common in that section than Magnemite is on Route 38 so I guess the expected time spent grinding would be lower. My preferred approach with Seadra > Kingdra was to use Thief on any Horsea I encountered until I found my first Seadra and caught it. If I was lucky enough to find a Dragon Scale before the catch then I would certainly evolve Seadra right away, but if I still didn't have one by the time I caught Seadra I wouldn't be compelled to continue looking at that point since I didn't think being able to survive Magnemite's Thunderbolt or whatever was really worth the time risk. May as well just use Seadra and its identical SpA/Speed until you can grab the Mt. Mortar Dragon Scale with Waterfall.

Thank you for your well thought-out response. You're definitely right about Flareon (in fact, I hope to test her one day in the future, no way she belongs in D or even C IMHO even without Ember, and she also has Shadow Ball in addition to Return as you mentioned - she hits like a truck with Normal-type attacks in my experience). I would like to add that the DST trick in my experience isn't even necessary, the stone holders generally call you at very convenient times of their own accord - just make sure to have only their number(s) saved at the time.

IMO its better for Espeon in particular to evolve between 30 and 36 if you're going that route. Mostly because you get access to Special Bite which from Espeon's monstrous Special Attack Stat really does work on top of your speed and your Flinch Chance. STAB Headbutt Eevee isn't awful (its fine for route mons) and the Dark/Psychic combo beats most of the E4 (including beating 2 of Karen's mons) without really breaking a sweat. Eevee becomes weaker earlier on, but you basically get an auto win condition vs the E4 in it.

I honestly wouldn't rate any of the Eeveelutions particularly highly anyway due to their mechanics (and for three of them unavailability in Johto in GS) because happiness does take time, and none of their movepools are particularly stellar in any way. Espeon is arguably the best one, and I don't think it should be any higher than B, even with an almost perfect sweep of the E4 (with Bite/Psybeam).

Also: I don't think we here should go into the depths of eggs and stuff for the content of this list. It would become very troublesome. If people want to breed a mon during a playthrough then let them. I in fact did this to get Leech Seed Chikorita, but it took me a fairly long time because the original Hoppip I caught (to pass on Leech) was considered a "Relative" of the Chikorita, something which can happen in GSC due to how the familial inheritance works with eggs.



Gen 2 is the only time this can happen, as most other games actively encourage interbreeding. Bulba isn't hugely reliable, but I am sure this has been confirmed before. So I had to go catch another Hoppip, train that till it learnt Leech and then pass that down. Was a bit of an issue on top of the time it takes to hatch the eggs.

Fair lol. Leech Seed Chikorita sounds amazing, ngl, but I totally agree tiering them wouldn't make much sense haha. Fair point about the IV issue, never even knew it was a thing (guess this game still has a lot of ''secrets''). Espeon is indeed dope for the E4, you are right about that.

 

[ASMRxism]

Haven't played my crystal run in a while ever since I dropped and broke my gba sp (rip) but I had a few thoughts:

- I've bred for leech seed Chikorita and it's a massive improvement, a B or arguably A level performance, but having to SR for a female Chikorita to avoid having to get a Ditto to hatch a female Chikorita and catching a Leech Seed father and breeding and hatching a Chikorita then catching it up 15 levels to replace your starter... is about exactly the same cost of efficiency to keep it at C rank.

Absolutely not worth a tier change, but possibly the only breeding issue worth mentioning in a write-up as an unnecessary but valid option.

- Gengar to C is too extreme. The case was made to drop to B a while ago and it seemed the consensus was there, but nothing that hits that hard with all three punches and puts things to sleep with that speed and is immune to so many common attacks should be lower than B.

Most of the criticism was towards Gastly, since it sucks at route clearing and it's contribution is limited to Sleeping and Cursing one Pokemon per Gym Leader, although that alone gave it solid enough utility to keep up until it evolved to Gengar. As a solo run Gastly would be miserable, but as a member of a team it is basically fine until it evolves, at which point it becomes very good.

- I caught Raikou and Entei in Crystal right before my GBA broke and would really love to see them tried out, since quality fire and electric types are so rare. Besides the pain of catching them, their level up moves suck and prob require Fire Blast/Thunder to function, so using both in a run was about to become a money sink anyway. Still, they are obviously strong in terms of stats and level alone.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Most of the criticism was towards Gastly, since it sucks at route clearing and it's contribution is limited to Sleeping and Cursing one Pokemon per Gym Leader, although that alone gave it solid enough utility to keep up

We're talking about some SERIOUS issues at route clearing here, and here's the thing, being at least decent at route clearing is not something optional when it comes to efficiency. It's the very reason why Chikorita is seen in such a negative light, and we're talking about a mon that's using LICK as its main damage dealer on routes up to Level 21. In JOHTO.

That's an incredibly serious issue. It doesn't get to "keep up", it requires extensive switch-grinding all the way up to the Mid-Game. Even Chikorita is running circles against Gastly when it comes to route clearing and Gastly's contributions to Leader battles are little more than fine Cheese.

Hypnosis vs. Mud-Slap Spam Falkner. Absolutely 0 damage because Normal/Flying. Not good.

At best Curse vs Bugsy. Enjoy losing 50%.

Whitney is just no.

Morty is quite literally a mirror match, except Gengar will nuke you with Shadow Ball unless you're also evolved... Then it'll still nuke you with Shadow Ball. Enjoy trading Night Shades with Haunters.

This is positively abysmal. Gastly phase barely gets to be called E-tier worthy. It is absolute and literal deadweight until it evolves.

Then you get poverty Alakazam with no Psychic STAB. C is accurate for an extreme investment, good reward mon like Gengar.

 

[Ernesto]

I've actually tried the breeding thingy in the past because I wanted all Eeveelutions, without the speed toggle it takes way too long just to get a low level STAB. I do think it's kind of sad that Espeon evolves basically for the lategame.

I agree with most of atsync's noms not sure about Golem because I couldn't trade but Graveler struggles a lot after the fourth gym. However I will say the Nidos never disappointed me in the midgame, even if they lacked STAB the punches + Surf + strong Normal-type move were more than enough. I guess you can argue the detour for the Stone might be enough to put them in B, but at the moment you get it it's an immediate power increase.

Also, funnily enough, I caught Suicune because I realized I needed both Whirlpool and Waterfall and Poli couldn't spare both moveslots (and I was dumb and KOed the Gyara for the experience) and when I was training south of Blackthorn Raikou appeared. I had Bel in the lead, Sleep Powdered as it Roared, brought it to 2 HP with Sludge Bomb and caught it after a couple tries. I guess I can use it in the E4, the problem is that its moveset outright sucks and I wasn't gonna get Thunder just for it. Tl;dr it's worse than Typhlosion against Clair without it. I'm at Victory Road right now with all my mons at 40, I'm thinking I'll save before buying the TMs so that I see who needs them most. Poli prolly requires Blizzard for Lance since Ice Punch is weak but Typh can maybe get away with Sunny Day + Fire Punch.

I love that your Poliwhirl has been giving you such a good time, Texas Cloverleaf. I was also considering A for it but in Crystal, didn't imagine it'd be as good without evolving. Another thing it has going for it is that it gets all the same HMs (plus Rock Smash) as Gyarados once it evolves, in a gen as atsync said where a lot of good Water-types lack them. I'm impressed by how Gloom speedtied Kingdra considering my Victreebel failed to, there must be something I'm missing.
Regarding Cynda, I too am of the impression that it might be good enough for A since Quilava with Return did much better than I remembered in the midgame. My biggest hesitation is that I've always considered it a whole rank below Magmar performance-wise. I know we don't like to tier stuff based on other Pokés but Magmar gets everything it wants almost immediately, with the exception of a strong Return I guess. Cynda's advantages are early good matchups against Bugsy and Falkner but I dunno if they count as much. Tbh tho Magmar was S in the past so if someone nommed it to rise I wouldn't oppose, it's better than most stuff in A for sure.

EDIT: Oh and I'll hold off judgment until the E4 but up to this point Bel looks to be a B unless it flunks completely there, lacking a competent Grass STAB until the League sucks but Sludge Bomb is stroonk. 2HKOing Kingdra is something I thought only Friend Ball Tauros/Ursaring could accomplish, and it also takes little from its moves. Really its worse points are the matchups where it can't spam it, like Jasmine or some Poison-types from Team Rocket/the rival.

This is what I have up to now, will add the last Silver matchup later. Here's the previous part btw.

Silver (Underground)

Pidgeotto (level 33 - 34): Golbat outspeeds and 4HKOs while you barely don't 2HKO (it's a very low chance), Quick Attack could help here but I don't have it. If he confuses you might lose. Avoid Magnemite, Mud-Slap only 2HKOs and you don't really have room for it. Feraligatr is 4HKOed and 5HKOs back with Water Gun, so you can beat it if you're at full. You also outspeed. Haunter is faster and can Curse, otherwise you 2HKO with Wing Attack. Sneasel is 2HKOed and does little with Faint Attack, also if you're healthy it spams Leer. You can beat up to four mons but it's unreliable, at least you outspeed Gatr.
I tried giving it a Rare Candy to see how it goes. Now it outspeeds Golbat and has a higher chance to 2HKO, although the first hit can leave it in green still. Big improvement as long as you avoid hitting yourself. Gatr can still live three Returns but only 5HKOs with Bite. Haunter still outspeeds and Curses and Sneasel outspeeds and is 2HKOed.
Quilava (level 34 - 35): Golbat is outsped and 3HKOed by Flame Wheel while it 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Watch out for Confuse Ray. Gatr comes in and is 4HKOed by Return (3HKOed after a Defense drop) while it 3HKOs with Water Gun so you'll need to heal. The second time it actually started with Rage, but unfortunately I hit myself. Haunter used Shadow Ball for 20 damage and was 2HKOed, similarly with Sneasel and Faint Attack. Magnemite dies. I outsped everything but Sneasel. A sweep is possible with healing but both Golbat and Gatr are annoying.
Victreebel (level 33 - 34): Let's see. Golbat is a speed tie and can confuse or 3HKO with Wing Attack, however if you win the tie you can put it to sleep and 3HKO with Sludge Bomb. A lot can go wrong but it's significantly better than its previous fights. If you can find room for Return (it needs all its moves imo) it doesn't secure the 2HKO on Golbat, so doesn't change much. Magnemite is 3HKOed at +1, watch out for T-Wave if it wakes up. Haunter is faster and Curses, Sludge Bomb seems to 3HKO otherwise. Sneasel outspeeds and Leers but is OHKOed. Gatr surprisingly can be 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb on rolls (poison clinches it) and doesn't pose a threat even at -1 since it just Bites. Definitely better than expected.
Poliwrath (level 34): It's one point slower than Bel and ties with Pidgeotto which means Golbat is faster, sad. Wing Attack is a 4HKO so Confuse Ray is scarier, meanwhile MysticWater Surf (Ice Punch does very similar damage) 2HKOs back. It lives the hit in rain in red. Magnemite is disposed of even without the rain, Haunter does pitiful damage with Shadow Ball and gets brought to red by Surf (so if you used Hypnosis + RD against Golbat you OHKO it before rain runs out). Gatr can only attempt to lower your speed and flinch you for 7 damage, meanwhile Return is a roll to 4HKO. Sneasel also does little with Quick Attack and is 2HKOed by Surf/Return, or OHKOed by Submission after you level up. You might need to switch out of confusion/Curse but you prolly won't need to heal unless you tank two Wing Attacks + a Shadow Ball, Wrath's bulk is really helpful.
I also tried giving this a Candy and teaching it Submission. Unfortunately it only ties with Golbat, meanwhile RD Surf still only 2HKOs. Haunter might be OHKOed by Surf outside of rain but it generally lives in red. Submission 3HKOs Gatr and the recoil does more damage to you than anything it can do, lmao. With a Black Belt you still 2HKO Golbat and Gatr is apparently a roll but I always left it in red. Sneasel goes the same way. Unlike Pidgeotto I don't think the level difference improves the performance much.

Overall the only annoyance is Golbat since it can outspeed 3/4 of my team, the best options are either put it to sleep with Bel and 3HKO with Sludge Bomb or give a Rare Candy to Pidgeotto so that it's faster and 2HKOs. Gatr is such a pushover here, what the hell did Silver do to the Croconaw from Azalea.

Clair

Pidgeot (level 38 - 39): The three Dragonair are brought to low yellow/red with Pink Bow Return and threaten with T-Wave. Ice Beam and Tbolt do around 50/124 HP, so 40%. At 39 Kingdra is 3HKOed by Return (or Return + two Swifts if it Smokescreens) and Pidgeot lives two Surfs. With a para Berry you can beat the first Dragonair unharmed and still 3HKO Kingdra. Note that at level 38 Surf becomes a roll to 2HKO, it never used Hyper Beam. Obviously can't sweep but it can either beat two Dragonair or one and the ace without healing, so good matchup overall.
Victreebel (level 38 - 39): Poison Barb Sludge Bomb takes the three Dragonair to red, poison can KO them but since they threaten with para it's better to put them to sleep (watch out for PP) and hope that they don't get an early wake. At level 39 Kingdra outspeeds and does 50/121 (so 40%) with Hyper Beam, meanwhile Sludge Bomb has a good chance to 2HKO—guaranteed with poison. I'd say this is a great matchup, Smokescreen can be annoying but if it HBs you win basically. At level 38 you still 2HKO on rolls and live a Hyper Beam or DragonBreath just fine. Very nice for a mon without much bulk.
Typhlosion (level 38): Return 2HKOs the Dragonair even without Pink Bow. With it Kingdra is 3HKOed (!) (2HKOed at -1) and Typhlosion lives a Surf from full, so you can actually win if Kingdra leads with Smokescreen. Obviously not a good matchup but that shit's hilarious.
Poliwrath (level 38): Black Belt Submission takes Dragonair to low yellow and they all threaten you with para so you want to put them to sleep. You're taking around 18/126 recoil from the big hits, so 1/7th. Kingdra outspeeds and does around a third with Hyper Beam and less with DragonBreath, but have fun hitting if it uses Smokescreen. Two Submissions leave it in red and proc Hyper Potion, maybe at 39 they OHKO. NeverMeltIce Ice Punch does around the same damage to the Dragonair but doesn't have recoil, obviously. It does pitiful damage to Kingdra, only 5HKOing (meaning Hyper Beam 3HKOs back) and procing Hyper Potion. Pink Bow Return barely 2HKOs despite having similar attack to Typh, it seems Poli doesn't like me as much. Kingdra lives three and procs Hyper Potion. With DynamicPunch you don't quite OHKO the Dragonair (they die to confusion) but do guarantee the 2HKO on Kingdra. Well, guarantee is a saying considering it's a 25% chance before accounting for Smokescreen. Possible but easily Poli's worst matchup since it evolved.
Gave it a Rare Candy, Submission still doesn't 2HKO Kingdra so no point in trying.
Went ahead and bought Blizzard since Ice Punch clearly doesn't cut it. The Dragonair are swiftly OHKOed. Kingdra is only 3HKOed tho, so to get a full sweep you'd need a PP Up, an X Accuracy AND a paralysis-curing Berry. Clearly not worth it.
Raikou (level 40): For the lolz. Quick Attack 3HKOs Dragonair after a Leer, bad matchup. Magnet Thundershock 5HKOs Kingdra and it 3HKOs back with Surf, although it likes to spam Smokescreen a lot. Clearly doesn't work without Thunder and I'm not getting the TM since I need the money for Fire Blast and Blizzard.
Used an old save file to get ThunderDance (I had to sell some TMs to get the money since I'd bought Blizzard). The Dragonair are 2HKOed, obviously they can para you so you're gonna need some items. However, Kingdra is brought to low yellow which is impressive. I'd argue that it's better to not set up rain since it powers up Surf, but you should beat it anyway if you're healthy.

Silver (Victory Road)

For some reason I had Ethers but not Repels in my bag so it took me a while to get to the end, lol.

Typhlosion (level 40 - 41): Outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Fire Punch, then Feraligatr comes in and is taken to low yellow with T-Punch while doing less than 30% with Water Gun. Golbat lives the T-Punch in red and can confuse. Haunter and Magneton are also OHKOed with Fire Punch, and Kadabra can live in red but dies to Return. Excellent matchup.
Pidgeot (level 40): Outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel, switch out from Magneton. 3HKOs Gatr with Return and can live two crit Slashes, if it Scary Faces you should switch out. 2HKOs Golbat, Wing Attack does 18%. Its own Wing Attack puts Haunter in low red but it kills itself with Curse and Wing Attack OHKOs Kadabra. Solid matchup overall, Gatr is physically bulky but doesn't hit it hard.
Poliwrath (level 40): Sneasel can't touch you (might debuff you with Screech) and is 2HKOed with Surf/OHKOed in rain so you doesn't need to take recoil from Submission. Golbat outspeeds and Wing Attack 4HKOs, you 2HKO back with Surf or Ice Punch. Kadabra comes in and uses Future Sight and dies to rain Surf (lives outside of it) or Return. Magneton lives outside of rain so you want to put it to sleep or KO it with Submission/DynamicPunch. Haunter outspeeds and Curses then dies, if it uses something else it can live with 1 HP. Gatr is 3HKOed with Submission (4HKOed by Return and 2HKOed by DynamicPunch) but doesn't do much back. The biggest problem is really Golbat, you can put it to sleep so it doesn't weaken you so much. If you avoid it you can probably beat the rest in green but you're forced out by Curse. Average matchup, I'd say, since you're slower than four of his mons and there are too many annoyances.
Victreebel (level 40): Sneasel is OHKOed by Sludge Bomb and can debuff with Screech. Golbat is outsped and 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb/Return, prolly best to put it to sleep. Kadabra Future Sight and dies just as Sneasel. Magneton can para so put it to sleep. At +3 MS Vine Whip can 2HKO, better than I expected. It then 2HKOs Haunter (which kills itself with Curse) and OHKOs Gatr. With SunnyBeam you 2HKO Magneton (obviously put it to sleep first), Haunter is almost OHKOed but lives and if it Curses you have one last turn of sun to OHKO Gatr—which is also 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Good matchup, needs some long sleeps so it's not quite solid.

Didn't test Raikou here because of HM users.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Haven't played my crystal run in a while ever since I dropped and broke my gba sp (rip) but I had a few thoughts:

- I've bred for leech seed Chikorita and it's a massive improvement, a B or arguably A level performance, but having to SR for a female Chikorita to avoid having to get a Ditto to hatch a female Chikorita and catching a Leech Seed father and breeding and hatching a Chikorita then catching it up 15 levels to replace your starter... is about exactly the same cost of efficiency to keep it at C rank.

Absolutely not worth a tier change, but possibly the only breeding issue worth mentioning in a write-up as an unnecessary but valid option.

Speaking of which, it would be great to try again - I hope to do it on my second run. I once used a Screens + Attract Female Meganium in the E4 and she did pretty nicely, even powering through some of Lance's Dragonites and other crazy mons she's got no business beating. I wonder if the Screens also can't be used to safely set up, say, a Fury Cutter rampage through Whitney. I just think she may not be B material all said and done.

Ernesto, I like where your head is at, it honestly makes sense Return would be so good on a starter and I'm considering trying Return on Cyndaquil this round. I definitely agree that Quilava's midgame isn't as bad as people thought it was and I didn't even use Return lol. Smokescreen shenanigans can cheese the right opponents, Fury Cutter/Rollout can power through bosses like Whitney as even Volt (one of the anti-Cyndaquil posters) was forced to confess, and Return quite honestly shouldn't take long to be strong on a Pokemon that you technically befriend before any other.

Also impressed by how well Pidgeot did. Normal-types truly are awesome in this game - 'cept you, Stantler. Oh well, B sounds ok I guess.

Also, shout out to a bunch of some awesome HM users:

Chinchou: Appears around the same time you have access to Surf. Can use Surf, Flash, Whirlpool, and Waterfall all in one.
Sandshrew: Appears as early as Union Cave and use Strength, Cut, and Rock Smash.
Red-Gyarados: Appears in the Lake of Rage but can use Strength, Surf, Waterfall, and Whirlpool.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

as even Volt (one of the anti-Cyndaquil posters) was forced to confess

Dafuq did I just read?

I feel like I should warn y'all. Return does take a while to reach full power. But even more importantly, it takes a while to get stronger than Headbutt.

Fearow only really started using it as a main damage option in my run literally at Chuck because I had to take out Sharp Beak. It's at like, 75~80BP on the eyeball test.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Pokemon I think someone should consider testing (and why):

Qwilfish: Comes very early in the game with natural Spikes, an awesome Water/Poison typing that's useful against the very next gym and then some (Bugsy, Chuck, and Pryce), can pick up Rollout and hit hard with a base 95 Attack (higher than Nidoking's!) while being decently fast (85), and can set up Harden and/or Minimize to be an absolute annoyance against the multiple Gym Leaders who use attacks with less-than-perfect-accuracy as well as to prepare for a Rollout sweep. Only problem is that his Special Attack and Defense suck (base 55 lol) but if you use him less as a conventional Water-type, he should be good and Rollout can make up for the Sp. Atk deficit against guys like Lance anyway - his Dragons survive Ice Punches and Icy Winds anyway so Qwilfish isn't disadvantaged against them and could potentially use someone like Gyarados to set up on more or less reliably.

The other catch is the swarm, but that can be activated by DST shenanigans after you beat Falkner and you're literally near New Bark at this point.

Heracross: An absolute beast in my ingame playthroughs, although catching one can be annoying (which is why I recommend having Great Balls and a good number of Poke Balls before you do) but this can be offsetted by soft resetting. Fury Cutter reliably carves through Whitney's team whenever I used her there and she hits like a truck against NPCs with Horn Attack alone even at a level disadvantage while also being fast and bulky for the time you get her. She can make good use of Normal-type STAB to decimate most NPCs and can floor bosses with Fury Cutter spam and/or her bulk, possibly throwing in STAB Rock Smashes to facilitate an easier sweep. I also remember beating Clair with a Heracross once using Fury Cutter. Only real catch is that she's a Slow Pokemon to level up, but she's still good and much more versatile than Stantler, speedier than Granbull, much more timely than Tauros and Miltank, and a lot bulkier than pretty much every one of those Normal-types sans the big cows.

Man, sometimes I wish I had more time to do these tests. It's unironically more fun than doing Nuzlockes, which get stale when you have to deal with limited Pokemon selection ingame lol. This way I at least get to try Pokemon I never used before like Snubbull and Seadra.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Ya boi got another log for y'all to discuss.

4th Gym ~ 5th Gym

Snubbull learns Shadow Ball. Huh. Forgot about that. RIP Bite, you won't be missed.

Quagsire learned Amnesia against Morty. No more Headbutt for it. Sp. Def is too important late-game to ignore.

Went to check out Tin Tower to make sure about whether or not it had some loot around. Odd Egg hatched.

0IV Smoochum at Lv. 5 just after Morty with no Exp. Share available. No. Just... No. I got it as early as possible too.

Also, Tin Tower is a complete waste of time. Figures the Odd Egg would hatch here.

Snubbull actually outsped something. Granted, it was a Corsola, but still kinda shocking. It's still weird to see Shadow Ball trigger SpD drops and not deal extra damage afterwards.

Oh hey, it evolves at 23. Neat.

My game clock says it's Monday for... Reasons? Oh well. Gonna grab this Sharp Beak real quick. Got Strength too.

Fixed the clock. Thinking about grabbing Thunderpunch for Granbull, but I'm not sure if it's worth it over Charm. Again Charm and Scary Face just destroys my coverage.

Definitely going back for the Magnet and another Return TM tho. Thinking about grabbing Fire Blast for Quilava too, but...

28k. FB is 110. This is just really, really bad.
I'm not burning money on X-Items, haircuts and the like, all I've bought was 15 Full Heals, 25 Fresh Waters, and 4 Awakenings just in case. Only used one of each because Snubbull got paralyzed by a Body Slam near the ranch. Didn't use the Awakenings vs Morty because of testing.

Johto routes are really small and easy to backtrack because of their ledges, so you can just not spend any money, but in my case that would save... 15k.

43k is a fair amount of money, but still nowhere close to 110. It's very likely that I won't get this money anywhere soon, and definitely not before Quilava evolves, and by that time, I'll be able to just punch things with Typhlosion.

The Amulet Coin is also very, very late.

Got just the Return TM. Let's see how much money I gather until the Radio Tower.

Gonna do the Lighthouse now.

Nothing too eventful. Found some loot, including a [REDACTED] Candy.

Surfing down to Cianwood. Didn't actively battle all trainers, but battled everyone on the outer ring since that's the route I took.

Got to Cianwood. Grabbed the free Shuckle. It may not make candies, but I can get some Berry Juice and it's not like I need the berries or the team slot.

Went north to show Eusine that I must defeat everyone that wears capes in this franchise.

Much like his cape, it came up short against Granbull. This mon hits like a freight train with no brakes. 78 Attack at Lv. 26 is a lot.

Time to tackle the Gym.

Quag and Fearow on Lv. 25, Quilava and Bull on 26.

Cianwood got legit mons, so I'm testing Fearow against them real quick.

Sharp Beak Peck almost OHKOs the initial Hitmonlee, but falls short by 10~15%. Double Kick does 25. 43/78HP left.

SB Peck deals 55% on Hitmonchan. For some reason, it did Comet Punch. If that's really the best damage option (Chan's SpA is terrible anyway), the ambush is no threat.

Gonna reset and test if Return does more damage...

It did not. ~75%. Sharp Beak Peck is my best damage option with Fearow right now.

Thunderpunch did 24 damage. Confirmed, the back-to-back battles are no threat.

Quagsire outsped the 3rd trainer's Machoke. Good thing Fearow leveled up against Hitmonchan, it wouldn't have been nice to eat a Rock Slide.

Granbull almost OHKO'd the last trainer's Primeape with Strength. It left it with a pixel. Good lawd, this mon hits hard.

Time for Chuck.

Vs. Chuck

Everyone at Lv. 26 except Bull at 27.

Attempt 1 - Quilava vs. Primeape.
Headbutt is a 4HKO. Lava outspeeds.
Karate Chop does 27 in return. 49/76HP left. 3HKO. Reset. I wanna see all damage options.

Attempt 1.1 - Rollout is not saving the day again. It is a 5HKO. Literally all 5 rolls in for one mon.

Karate Chop did 24 this time, so we can safely guess the range.

Chuck is doing extremely boneheaded plays. Karate Chop, then Fury Swipes, then Rage. Is this random pick AI? Even SwSh's AI isn't this bad.

Reset.

Attempt 1.2 - Gonna try Rock Smash into Rollout to hit Poliwrath with the 5th roll.
Primeape hit Lava with Leer. This might get dicey.

And it gets. 39/76HP left after one Chop.

Another one leaves it with 3HP.
Next one KOs. Didn't make it in time. Reset.

Attempt 1.3 - Ember burns on turn 1. 5 or 6HKO damage-wise. Gonna keep this just to see what happens.

This is the 4th roll on Wrath. Confirms that a sweep is just not possible. Surf KOs back.

This is obviously a bad matchup for Quilava, but even a plain Berry on the item slot allows it to beat Primeape with some luck.i

Attempt 2 - Granbull vs Primeape. Going for Charm ASAP.

... Reset.

Attempt 2.1 - Wow.

Just run up and deck them in the face. It just works.

If Crit Chop doesn't OHKO, you can pretty much guarantee it's a 3HKO. Strength damn near OHKOs.

Just a slugfest all around, geez.

Gonna test it vs Poliwrath. Reset.

Attempt 3 - Quilava vs Primeape.
Ape led with a Leer.
Yikes. If it wasn't a flinch on the 3rd Headbutt Lava would be split like a brick by those chops.

Granbull vs Poliwrath.

Dynamicpunch is not an OHKO. 11/96HP left.

Charm is guaranteed. Rare footage of me using a Super Potion. I gotta heal. I wanna see how much Strength does back to it.

Another DPunch hits. 17/96HP left. Figures. Heal again.

Do I hear three!? Ffs, this is ridiculous.

Finally a miss on the 4th and 5th.

Strength does 40%. Not bad, but Chuck doesn't let up on the Dynamicpunches until it runs out of PP. If it at least went for the Hypnosis, you could pick a Mint, but DPunch being a 2HKO doesn't help too much. You need 2/3 DP misses to KO back. Too much RNG for my liking. If you absolutely need to try it though, give Bull a Bitter Berry.

Attempt 4 -
Quagsire vs. Primeape.

Fury Swipes then Karate Chop left Quag at 49HP.
Surf 3HKO.

Dynamicpunch finishes the job. Not good.

Attempt 4.1 - Ape misses Leer on Turn 1.
Crit Chop on Turn 2. 57/95HP left.

Another crit on Turn 3. 20/95HP left. Guess that's not a 4HKO. Surf 3HKO. Reset.

Attempt 4.2 - Leer on Turn 1. 2 Fury Swipes hits on T2. 80/95HP left.

Karate Chop did 30. It's safe to say that Quag can handle Primeape, but can't sweep. Reset.

Attempt 5 - Fearow vs Primeape.

Took out Sharp Beak and gave it the Mint Berry because of the Hypnosis threat.

Return does 65%. Took a Leer. This is very bad.

Fearow vs Poliwrath.

Return does around 30~35%. Fearow took a Dynamicpunch at -1. You can guess how well that went. Reset.

Attempt 5.1 - Fearow hits with a Crit Return. We take those. Time to test the 1v1 vs Poli.

Hypnosis hits turn 1. Mint kicked in.
Chuck went for the Mind Reader.

Poliwrath survives the 3rd Return and puts Fearow to sleep with Hypnosis.

No items in the cage. 1st DP misses, 2nd hits. 29/81HP remaining.

It kept trying to hit Dynamicpunch, missed the 3rd, hit the 4th. Abysmal AI.

The lack of real Flying STAB hurts Fearow a lot here. This matchup is neutral type-wise. Fearow did not wake up in time.

Attempt 5.2 - Using Peck instead of Return.
Fearow gets past Ape with 63/81HP left.

Hypnosis hits on Turn 1. Mint kicked in.

Peck is weaker, but still a 4HKO.

Attempt 5.3 - I want to confirm if Fearow's Return is a 4HKO.

It is. More importantly, if Primeape uses Leer, Poliwrath will come out swinging with DPunch which will leave you at 4, 5HP and confused. This obviously means you're all but dead. Always reset if Leer hits.

Attempt 6 - Fearow vs Primeape.
Sharp Beak Fearow handles it with ease. Left the Mint for Quagsire.

Quagsire vs Poliwrath.
Hypnosis burns through the Mint on Turn 1. This is a bad case scenario.

DP whiffs because of Dig. Hypnosis hits again. This is the worst-case scenario.
Mind Reader into DP. 51/95HP left. 44 damage is brutal, but not even a 2HKO.

The issue is the same that plagued Wooper vs Whitney though. Damage output.

Dig hovers between a 5 and 6HKO. This is just terrible against Poliwrath. Too many turns to get hit by Wrath's crippling moves. DP Confusion turns Dig into a liability.

Phone's battery died, so reset.

Attempt 7 - Quag takes down Ape. It spammed Karate Chop. Quag won with 20HP.

Fearow 4HKOd Poliwrath. It used Mind Reader on Turn 1 and followed it up with a Dynamicpunch.
The damage was nothing short of devastating. 34/81HP left and confused. Landing 2 Returns without getting hit again was nothing but luck.

This matchup is very weird. Primeape has a horrible moveset. Both the Hitmonlee and the Rock Slide Machoke trainers are far more dangerous.

Poliwrath will quite literally spend roughly half of its turns missing, so you can play around that fairly easily. But it's still dangerous and Mind Reader can put you into very rough spots.


Quilava has a very rough time.
It obviously can't do anything against Poliwrath and Primeape can KO it before you have the chance to KO it. It's a slugfest decided by RNG (Remember, Chop has a high crit rate. Also, Leer flips the matchup on Ape's favor.) and your best bet is having a Berry on hold to avoid the natural 3HKO by Karate Chop.

Granbull has a very rough time.
Primeape 3HKOs it. Granbull 2HKOs it with Strength but it's slower.

Poliwrath 2HKOs it. Granbull 3HKOs it, but it can gamble on misses if you're that desperate. This is a very bad idea.



Fearow is neutral.
Beating Primeape is trivial. Peck and Return 2HKO. Leer opens you up to a near OHKO by Poliwrath, so it's almost a guaranteed reset.

The biggest problem is the lack of damage against Poliwrath. 4 turns is a lot of time to dodge Hypnosis and Dynamicpunch. DP is a 2HKO.

Quagsire has a rough time.
Quag can handle Primeape with little hassle, but it's in no shape to face Poliwrath afterwards.

Poliwrath itself is a bad matchup since it can KO Quagsire much faster than it can get KO'd.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Funny, my Granbull beat Chuck at least 2/3 of the time in spite of being female?

She could also take a Dynamicpunch, albeit at full HP, without fainting. I also used Return, unlike Volt.

Granbull (L32): Tanked Primeape's Karate Chop while in the green and crushed with one Return. Poliwrath goes down to two, trying to Dynamicpunch me twice but failing. Both outpace Granbull but I won. Second try went the exact same but Primeape used Leer instead. Third try went the same as the first one. Dynamicpunch's accuracy is...bad, to put it mildly. I'd say Granbull has a very real chance of beating Chuck, according to calcs - at WORST you might need a couple of Hyper Potions and a held Bitter Berry (although I needed none of these), even Poliwrath's Dynamicpunch fails to OHKO according to calcs. A-Tier, shockingly - B-Tier at absolute minimum in spite of the elemental mismatch.

I did pursue Chuck after disposing of Pryce (whom I fought first to get Seadra earlier), admittedly, but there's literally...nothing?...stopping you from doing that in a normal playthrough, Pryce and Chuck are pretty close in terms of level, and they deliberately gave you that option anyhow.

Fighting a L30 Pokemon-packing Gym Leader at L26 or so is...not a good idea. I even question if it was necessary, given the plethora of trainers.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Fighting a L30 Pokemon-packing Gym Leader at L26 or so is...not a good idea. I even question if it was necessary, given the plethora of trainers.

What part of "no detours" do you not understand!?

DHR EDIT: Dude, knock it off man

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where going Pryce -> Chuck -> Jasmine is somehow forbidden, especially considering that the literal game is designed to allow you to progress that way and that is how I progressed with the intention of getting Seadra to fight in as many gyms as possible.

Also lol at whinging at me for having a Pokemon only two levels above the leader's ace...while having one FOUR levels or so below them lmao. Yes, because the guy whose margin of error is SMALLER is clearly the guy who's wrong. I know some of you have a fetish for eFfiCieNcY but come on now, it doesn't take a genius to realize that fighting a major opponent while underleveled isn't really going to give you an accurate view of how well you do.

Also, imagine blaming me for nO dEtoUrS when said ''detour'' is an unavoidable part of the main story, dawg. Like this is a travesty, no more nor less.

You know what? Stick to turning up at gyms underleveled and pretending that tells you a thing about how well you do there lmao. I mean, you may as well use only L10 Pokemon against the E4 and then see which ones can actually beat more than a member's one Pokemon lol.

I'm gonna fight every gym, every E4 member, and the rival(s) at comparable levels, be it 2 levels more or fewer, but no more.

 

[Revelation]

View attachment 314769

You’re a bit of an asshole huh

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Let's avoid ad hominem, y'all. That and false accusations of ''detours'' or the like.

Revelation, are there any tier placements you agree and/or disagree with?

 

[Xator_Nova]

tbf given that granbull belongs to the fast experience group, it wouldn't surprise me that it gets inadvertently overleveled

 

[aegon the unlikely]

tbf given that granbull belongs to the fast experience group, it wouldn't surprise me that it gets inadvertently overleveled

Not overleveled at all (two levels ahead of the boss's ace through trainers is not ''overleveled'' by any reasonable stretch). I know you like to penalize Pokemon for later appearances in regards to training, but I don't think that's how most players (myself included) would like to do things or even should. They're already being penalized for later appearances anyway where it matters, your method overpunishes them. Your method is also super complicated and forgive me, I wouldn't trust myself to train in that way and expect this gives a balanced portrayal of the Pokemon I'm using.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You’re a bit of an asshole huh

Just enough to add some flavor to life.

Btw, I forgot to ask, when do y'all usually get a Game Corner TM in this game?

I'm being really stingy, but I don't think I'll be able to get Fire Blast before Quilava evolves.

 

[Xator_Nova]

Not overleveled at all (two levels ahead of the boss's ace through trainers is not ''overleveled'' by any reasonable stretch). I know you like to penalize Pokemon for later appearances in regards to training, but I don't think that's how most players (myself included) would like to do things or even should. They're already being penalized for later appearances anyway where it matters, your method overpunishes them. Your method is also super complicated and forgive me, I wouldn't trust myself to train in that way and expect this gives a balanced portrayal of the Pokemon I'm using.

dude i was defending your posts and you jump at me, remind me to not feel any further sympathy for you ever again lmao

Just enough to add some flavor to life.

Btw, I forgot to ask, when do y'all usually get a Game Corner TM in this game?

I'm being really stingy, but I don't think I'll be able to get Fire Blast before Quilava evolves.

I got enough money around the time I defeated the Rockets in Goldenrod

 

[Random Passerby]

Just enough to add some flavor to life.

Btw, I forgot to ask, when do y'all usually get a Game Corner TM in this game?

I'm being really stingy, but I don't think I'll be able to get Fire Blast before Quilava evolves.

Around Goldenrod Rockets as my log shows.

I think aegon the unlikely was referring to his run using Seadra which was why he did Mahogany Rockets first as I did not that long ago.