GSC In-Game Tier List

Missing the point entirely that there's a significantly larger concentration of Fire weak enemies with Water.

Speaking of water it's water under the bridge, I'm well aware this is an unpopular opinion
 
Yeah, there are a lot of Magnemites and such, but I don't believe this is too relevant, since generic trainers aren't a challenge, so I don't think this factor should be taken in the listing.

So, is this new tier really happening? If it is, maybe we should discuss the mons that should be moved down.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Well just to get the ball rolling with a suggestion:

E Tier:
- Cleffa (C)
- Corsola
- Delibird (SC)
- Eevee (Jolteon)
- Elekid (C)
- Gastly (No Trade)
- Igglybuff (C)
- Ledyba (SC)
- Magby (C)
- Shuckle
- Smoochum (C)
- Wobbuffet
- Yanma

F Tier:
- Aerodactyl
- Chansey
- Clefairy
- Cubone (GS)
- Diglett
- Ditto
- Electabuzz
- Grimer
- Ho-oh (C)
- Houndour
- Kangaskhan
- Larvitar
- Magmar (C)
- Misdreavous
- Mr. Mime
- Murkrow
- Pikachu
- Porygon
- Slugma
- Smeargle
- Sneasel (GS)
- Tyrogue (GS)
- Unown

Basically I would suggest placing the Kantomons and the absolute worst of the Johtomons (Ditto, Smeargle and Unown) in this new "F-tier", and leave the rest in the current E-tier. I'm sure you could make a case for some of the other Johtomons to drop too (e.g. Wobbuffet, Yanma, Shuckle) but I personally think they at least have SOME redeeming qualities, whereas the 3 I chose to drop have little to none, or at least are so heavily flawed that any positive traits are nullified.

As for the Kantomons currently in E-tier, I think all of them can justifiably be dropped. But I know that there are some that COULD have some decent use if the effort is put in to them - I remember someone arguing for Crystal Larvitar (obtainable in Celadon at level 40, albeit expensively) and Houndour was mentioned a few times in previous threads. I'm personally skeptical about both of these but perhaps some discussion can be had there.

There as also some other Pokemon in D-tier that I would like to see drop to E-tier (Crystal Pichu, Tangela, etc.) but I'll leave it at that for now.
 

Colonel M

j
is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
Yanma is awful enough to be F Tier IMO. Its movepool is absolute garbage and unless its Crystal it learns nothing. Even in Crystal Wing Attack is Level 36. I would also say F Shuckle.

Agreed that Wobbuffet can stay in E. You could argue throwing it against a mon or two and Counter / Mirror Coat them. It cant do crap to Karen though.

I could maybe argue E Sneasel. Sneasel technically has stats, its just that it needs TMs and if it uses STABs it is off its bad SpA. It desperately needs something like Blizzard or Nevermeltice to make use of its STABs. Its horrid but theres small saving graces here.

I might also slot Jolteon to D. If youre in Crystal and get a ThunderStone you can teach it Thunder with Game Corner. Its about Paras level.

Everything else looks pretty tame to me.
 

Xen

Fish Pokémon Connoisseur
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor
Been a while, so I'll throw my two cents in on the whole E-F tier posts.

-Houndour is complete gutter trash and should not leave F tier imo. Kanto-only is already bad for any Pokemon not named Snorlax, and coming severely underleveled in a part of the game where level grinding is basically non-existent doesn't help at all. Being in the slow exp group only further drives the nail into the coffin.

-Crystal Larvitar I could see being more debatable. Lv 40 is fairly workable, and having immediate access to Rock Slide does help, but once again Kanto's jank level curve makes it hard to baby Pokemon at this stage of the game, and it's a slow exp mon as well. The coin price is also steep (it nearly rivals Red Porygon). I guess if someone is conservative with their money throughout the game, I could see them grabbing it relatively quickly if not outright buying it with cash alone, but idk. E tier seems plausable if it's picked up as soon as possible, but I'm not completely sold on it; this one may be a good candidate for testing.

-Yanma is pretty bad, but one thing that makes me question whether it deserves going into F Tier is access to Sonicboom in the one game where the level curve is the wackiest in the series. Sure Sonicboom isn't going to be OHKOing stuff, and it won't mean shit against the bosses, but I could see SB Yanma making a passable route cleaner early on. That's something....I guess?

-GS Sneasel is F tier. Dumping your TM resources into a frail and underleveled Pokemon doesn't mean squat when there is only one battle left in the game. Even if you go through the hassle of getting it to a decent level, the only Pokemon of Red's that I could see Sneasel beating is Espeon, and maybe Venusaur if you're really lucky.

-One thing that I've been wondering is, how bad should the Odd Egg be punished for its randomness? Sure planning for a specific Odd Egg Pokemon is probably going to be a big time sink, but if you just grab it and go on, then the Pokemon (some more than others) do have some merits to using them. Idk, it just seems weird seeing Elekid and Magby proposed for E tier when both are decent Pokemon in their own rights (though admittedly requiring a bit of a time/resource sink).
 

Colonel M

j
is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
-GS Sneasel is F tier. Dumping your TM resources into a frail and underleveled Pokemon doesn't mean squat when there is only one battle left in the game. Even if you go through the hassle of getting it to a decent level, the only Pokemon of Red's that I could see Sneasel beating is Espeon, and maybe Venusaur if you're really lucky.
Ah right. I thought it was in Ice Cave like it is in Crystal. Nevermind. Definitely F Tier that shit.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Yanma is awful enough to be F Tier IMO. Its movepool is absolute garbage and unless its Crystal it learns nothing. Even in Crystal Wing Attack is Level 36. I would also say F Shuckle.

Agreed that Wobbuffet can stay in E. You could argue throwing it against a mon or two and Counter / Mirror Coat them. It cant do crap to Karen though.

I could maybe argue E Sneasel. Sneasel technically has stats, its just that it needs TMs and if it uses STABs it is off its bad SpA. It desperately needs something like Blizzard or Nevermeltice to make use of its STABs. Its horrid but theres small saving graces here.

I might also slot Jolteon to D. If youre in Crystal and get a ThunderStone you can teach it Thunder with Game Corner. Its about Paras level.

Everything else looks pretty tame to me.
F for Yanma and Shuckle is fine with me.

I'm also fine with Jolteon in D tier (at least in GS, maybe Crystal is better with the earlier Thunder Stone but I don't know), although it wasn't that long ago that it was dropped down in the first place. Honestly I think all Eeveelutions should be D-tier minimum simply because Eevee requires little time investment to add to a team and is at least serviceable when spamming STAB Headbutts in the time before it evolves.

Been a while, so I'll throw my two cents in on the whole E-F tier posts.

-Houndour is complete gutter trash and should not leave F tier imo. Kanto-only is already bad for any Pokemon not named Snorlax, and coming severely underleveled in a part of the game where level grinding is basically non-existent doesn't help at all. Being in the slow exp group only further drives the nail into the coffin.

-Crystal Larvitar I could see being more debatable. Lv 40 is fairly workable, and having immediate access to Rock Slide does help, but once again Kanto's jank level curve makes it hard to baby Pokemon at this stage of the game, and it's a slow exp mon as well. The coin price is also steep (it nearly rivals Red Porygon). I guess if someone is conservative with their money throughout the game, I could see them grabbing it relatively quickly if not outright buying it with cash alone, but idk. E tier seems plausable if it's picked up as soon as possible, but I'm not completely sold on it; this one may be a good candidate for testing.

-Yanma is pretty bad, but one thing that makes me question whether it deserves going into F Tier is access to Sonicboom in the one game where the level curve is the wackiest in the series. Sure Sonicboom isn't going to be OHKOing stuff, and it won't mean shit against the bosses, but I could see SB Yanma making a passable route cleaner early on. That's something....I guess?

-GS Sneasel is F tier. Dumping your TM resources into a frail and underleveled Pokemon doesn't mean squat when there is only one battle left in the game. Even if you go through the hassle of getting it to a decent level, the only Pokemon of Red's that I could see Sneasel beating is Espeon, and maybe Venusaur if you're really lucky.

-One thing that I've been wondering is, how bad should the Odd Egg be punished for its randomness? Sure planning for a specific Odd Egg Pokemon is probably going to be a big time sink, but if you just grab it and go on, then the Pokemon (some more than others) do have some merits to using them. Idk, it just seems weird seeing Elekid and Magby proposed for E tier when both are decent Pokemon in their own rights (though admittedly requiring a bit of a time/resource sink).
I think the argument for Houndour was that its typing and match-ups against nearby gyms allowed it to start contributing even when at a low level. Its Dark typing allows it to do well against the Saffron Gym (Sabrina's Mr. Mime can't damage it at all and Alakazam only has Future Sight to damage it) and then it can go to the Celadon Gym and go from there. I personally don't think it's worth investing that experience into such an under-levelled Pokemon that would be better spent on buffing up your current team though - F-tier is best for it.

Sonicboom isn't really that great to be honest. By the time it comes it is no longer OHKOing stuff and Headbutt will generally be doing similar damage to most thing. Obviously stronger against Normal-resistant stuff but many of these can hit Yanma super-effectively which makes it unsafe.

I think the randomness of Odd Egg has to be considered if we are tiering each possibility separately. If we were to change track and have a single "Odd Egg" entry that represents all the possibilities as a single entity I think I would be more on-board with increasing it/them above E-tier, but tiering them separately implies that the player is specifically aiming for a particular baby and I think the unreliability of this should be reflected in their tiering.
 

Xen

Fish Pokémon Connoisseur
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor
Sonicboom isn't really that great to be honest. By the time it comes it is no longer OHKOing stuff and Headbutt will generally be doing similar damage to most thing. Obviously stronger against Normal-resistant stuff but many of these can hit Yanma super-effectively which makes it unsafe.

I think the randomness of Odd Egg has to be considered if we are tiering each possibility separately. If we were to change track and have a single "Odd Egg" entry that represents all the possibilities as a single entity I think I would be more on-board with increasing it/them above E-tier, but tiering them separately implies that the player is specifically aiming for a particular baby and I think the unreliability of this should be reflected in their tiering.
I actually forgot Yanma could learn Headbutt (or Swift for that matter). Disregard my previous point about Sonicboom then; there isn’t much of a reason to use it over Headbutt.

I could still argue for E since Yanma can at least try to contribute on routes, while everything else in F is either locked in Kanto, or are things like Unown and Ditto that you wouldn’t touch with a 10ft pole. I won’t feel strongly about it either way though if it does eventually drop to F. It’s one of the worst Pokemon in the game regardless, and being rare doesn’t help either (it’s also worth pointing out that, like with Dunsparce, Yanma kinda shows up at an awkward time if you plan on DST-abusing it).

Fair enough about the Odd Egg.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Hello again. Here are some more write-ups. Only a small group this time - I'm hoping to try out Zubat, Oddish, in-game trade Machop, Chinchou and Doduo next time. I getting closer and closer to the end of these runs where I'll have tested everything I intended to!

Aipom



I've defended this thing before in this thread, but yes, this thing is underestimated in usefulness I think. Its BST is low of course, but the stats are focused in the right places and it benefits from access to powerful STAB options early in the game. In fact, to compare its power to some other Heatbutters that are available at around the same time Aipom is:

Aipom Headbutt vs. Snorlax: 79-94 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
Heracross Headbutt vs. Snorlax: 77-91 (14.7 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
Croconaw Headbutt vs. Snorlax: 57-68 (10.8 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO

Admittedly Croconaw will get Headbutt slightly earlier than Aipom since the first TM is burned up to get Aipom out of its tree in the first place, but you can get more Headbutt TMs not long after, and in any case:

Aipom Swift vs. Snorlax: 68-81 (13 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO

Oh, and even after that comparisons can continue to be made:

Aipom Return vs. Aipom: 127-150 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Feraligatr Surf vs. Aipom: 127-150 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Aipom's main niche among Normal-types is its status as a Fast experience group Pokemon. Not many Normal-types can claim to have that attribute, and with the exception of Snubbull, the others are not very good choices for in-game runs because of other inherent flaws that they carry.

I would say that the thing that lets it down a bit is its move pool. It actually learns a lot of moves, but very few of its non-STAB moves are of much use to it. Shadow Ball is only occasionally needed for Rival's Haunter/Gengar, it can't use the elemental punches very well, and the rest of its moves are unreliable (DynamicPunch, Iron Tail) or weak (Mud-Slap, Rock Smash). I think the lack of Dig and Surf really hurts it because those are two of the main things that Furret and Raticate have over its stronger contemporaries (EDIT: well actually Miltank/Tauros get Surf but you get the point). Aipom is just playing like Tauros most of the time, except with much less Attack, Speed and defenses in exchange for earlier availability, a better experience group, and the ability to hit niche Pokemon like the aforementioned Haunter.

Those alone may be reason enough to consider Aipom on par with Tauros and co., depending on your perspective. Aipom is still OHKOing route stuff just as easily anyway, so its only in the stronger match-ups where the power difference is felt. Aipom is probably worse than Raticate/Furret aside from experience group, but at the same time I don't think it's worse than Pidgey overall. I kind of feel like Aipom should be B-tier just because Normal STAB is THAT effective in game, and Aipom happens to utilise it effectively while being obtainable early and leveling up quickly (supporting itself AND its team mates).

Phanpy



For this run I chose to catch wild Phanpy on Route 45. This approach is fraught with problems. For one thing, catching it can be annoying because while it isn't exceptionally rare, it has a 50% flee chance at the end of each turn. It also comes at level 20 and takes time to grind up before it can do much for you. Thankfully, the wild Tentacool/Tentacruel found along the various ocean routes are easy pickings for it since they only have Poison Sting/Acid/Supersonic to hurt you, and Phanpy can just kill them with Strength spam. Evolving at level 25 also helps.

Phanpy has a pretty limited move pool intially too: lots of Normal moves and no good STAB options. Donphan does have high attack, but since I've got the damage calcs going:

Aipom Headbutt vs. Aipom: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Donphan Headbutt vs. Aipom: 81-96 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Truth be told, Donphan doesn't have a great deal to do in the short term anyway. It can help out against Goldenrod Rockets, but it sucks against Clair's entire gym. Because of this, I feel that if people playing Silver wish to use this on their teams, they're better off just waiting until Victory Road. You can catch a level 33 Donphan there and teach it Earthquake immediately via the TM, and from there you can grind it against wild Graveler/Rhyhorn/Onix for some easy experience. Its best Elite 4 match-ups would be Koga and Bruno.

Either way, this is a low-tier Pokemon in Silver - it's obtained too late in the game and it really needs to precious Earthquake TM to have a chance of contributing anything notable for your team. I'm almost tempted to recommend a drop to E-tier for this thing just looking at the kinds of Pokemon that are placed there at the moment, but D/E is about right for Phanpy.

Remoraid



Not really sure what to think of this. I remember someone raving about this somewhat in an older version of this project (or even this one possibly), but I was underwhelmed.

Its most notable feature would be its attacking stats: Attack equal to Feraligatr and Special Attack that is only second to Vaporeon among Water-types. But while Octillery is infamous for having an insane move pool in later generations, its move pool in GS is more modest. It gets Psybeam as a semi-unique move, but otherwise it has the usual Water/Ice/Normal coverage that almost every Johto Water-type that is obtainable long before it has, and STAB Surf does more damage than Psybeam against most opponents anyway (it gets Flamethrower in Crystal, but no Fire Blast in any of the games, it can't learn Blizzard, and Ice Beam is too late to see any use in-game unless you get it from the Crystal move tutor). I think that Octillery does very well with the tools it has, but at the same time Remoraid is missing out on 7 Johto gyms and it's sort of difficult to justify waiting that long to add a Water-type to your team, powerful as it is. It's also very slow.

I view it as a C/D Pokemon at the moment. I can see it being on par with other "mid-tier" Waters like Goldeen, Mantine, etc.

Roamers



I'm going to group these together since I think they'll be in the same tier no matter what (obviously Suicune is different in Crystal).

Obviously the main barrier with these guys is the roaming mechanic. Realistically you aren't going to catch any of them until you get the Master Ball, and that means they may as well not be obtainable until after all the Johto gyms are done. Once you do have the Master Ball, you have to try and find one of them, and that can be problematic if you didn't luck out and record seen data of one of them in your Pokedex already.

And that's where this comes in:

https://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=7524.0

This page provides some really good strategies for encountering roamers as quickly as possible, for situations where you have encountered them before and when you are trying to find them for the first time. In the 2 runs of Silver I did, I had to opportunity to test both: I luckily encountered Entei on Route 43 on the first run well before getting the Master Ball, and then went in without seen data for the second run.

For the run where I had no seen data, I used a modified Route 36 strategy as described in the above link. Unfortunately, the patch of grass that that page recommends for this doesn't exist in Silver, so I used the other patch of grass and the National Park gate instead. It's a little slower because you can't use the bike in that particular gate, but otherwise it worked just as well. I recorded the following results:
  • 1st encounter: 2 minutes (Entei)
  • 2nd encounter: 12 minutes (Suicune)
  • 3rd encounter: 14 minutes (Suicune)
  • 4th encounter: 16 minutes (Raikou - caught)
  • 5th encounter: 17 minutes (Entei)
  • 6th encounter: 21 minutes (Suicune)
  • 7th encounter: 24 minutes (Suicune)
These are results are better than I was expecting, and if you went in with the mindset of not caring about which of the 3 you encountered and just wanted a high-leveled Pokemon to add to your team for the Elite 4, you should just use Lugia/Ho-oh this looks especially impressive. Realistically, you are more likely to be aiming for a particular Pokemon and that makes this slightly more time-risky, but overall I certainly don't see this being any worse than, say, catching a late-game Doduo/Ponyta/Rhyhorn and grinding them up.

With the method where I had recorded seen data for Entei, I found it in less than 5 minutes. I also tested this after finishing the above test since I had Suicune and Entei recorded now, and found Suicune in 1 minute, and Entei in 2 minutes. So again, the amount of time lost may actually be justifiable.

Having said all this, I'm still not so sure that they should be above D-tier just because they are so late - they aren't going to be around that that many relevant battles at all. As far as what they can do for you, Raikou is mostly limited to being a mono-Electric attacker, which is ok because Electric is a good typing on its own. A move set of Rain Dance/Thunder/Spark/filler will do fine in Silver. Thunderbolt can be added in Crystal post-game, but Crunch is learned too late and there aren't any other moves it'll be able to use that effectively.

Entei can work as a SunnyBeamer. Sunny Day/SolarBeam/Fire Blast/Strength seems like a good move set for it to run and should give it plenty to do against the Elite 4, although it kind of sucks against Lance.

Suicune might actually be the least valuable of the 3 just because it's basically a generic Water-type (albeit a very bulky one) with the default Water-type move set of Surf/ice-move/normal-move/filler, in a game that is full of Pokemon with that archetype, but with superior availability. That's probably a bit harsh because it'll still do VERY well against the Elite 4 with those stats, but is noted regardless.

Togepi



Picture Hoothoot, but with even less Attack, crummy Speed, and a long initial grind from an unhatched egg. That is Togepi in a nutshell.

Seriously, this thing sucks. It takes 10+ minutes of walking around Violet City just to hatch it, and then you have a slow grind with Mud-Slap and Metronome just to get it to match your starter/team, from which it proceeds to do nothing until the Swift TM is obtained at the very least. If you aren't doing that, you're continuing on your journey to hatch the egg, and it's probably hatching in Goldenrod at best, and then you have an even longer grind (albeit with Headbutt access in this case). This is on top of its other deficiencies: terrible Speed and weak power for a Pokemon of its type, offering very few worthwhile match-ups, and a slim pool of moves it can use effectively.

Its positives would be its Fast experience growth rate, its easy access to Normal STAB (as bad as its Attack is) and Fire Blast to work off of its decent Special Attack (an advantage over Noctowl who gets no good special moves in Johto). But mostly Togepi is too much of a time drain, with little pay-off.

If the E/F tier split goes ahead, I have no hesitation in recommending a drop to E-tier for Togepi. It's that bad.
 
Last edited:
I've seen these a couple of times, but I wanted to ask about potential last member to a crystal team. It's not meant to be anything special.

Cyndaquil

Suicune

Spearow

Teddiursa (wanted to use one of these for a while)

Nidoqueen


I've been leaning towards Jynx (not the Odd Egg version since that can't get Lovely Kiss) or even Espeon but I mostly wanted something for Psychics (they freaking HURT since all of them have Psychic long before you do, not to mention you don't get any good Dark or Steel types before the E4).
 
If you want to get funky you could try Xatu and free up your Spearow slot. As far as in game stuff just pick whatever you think will he most fun for you. Forretress could be a cute idea too with early Pineco access.
 
If you want to get funky you could try Xatu and free up your Spearow slot. As far as in game stuff just pick whatever you think will he most fun for you. Forretress could be a cute idea too with early Pineco access.
Good points. I actually just decided on Espeon since it gets Bite (which I remembered is special in Gen II). And hey, if Gatr can shred Will with bite off of 79 SAtk, imagine Espeon with 130...
 
I replaced my Gold version battery and gave it a solid run with the following team:
meganium_gold.png
golem.png
girafarig_gold.png
lapras_gold.png
houndoom.png

Below are my notes concerning the breakdown stats of the run. Feel free to skip this part to the individual analyses after. The following is merely a gameplay summary complete with my game time, party, their levels and movepool. The major battles are briefly highlighted. If you notice, I focused on Chikorita a bit, but that will be addressed more later. The purpose of disclosing this information is to give background to my arguments.

Some comments on my playthrough style: I rarely use X-items and I tend to only use revives or potions during battle for the Elite Four or Red when necessary. I seldom fight wild Pokemon except before Violet City and in Victory Road (juicy EXP there); I believe fighting against trainers is usually enough for success.

badges: 1
hours: 1:09
dex: 2

chikorita (tackle, growl, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 13
geodude (tackle, defense curl, rock throw) lv. 13
egg

>SWITCH TRAINED GEODUDE AGAINST SPROUT TOWER TO GET ROCK THROW
>CHICKORITA CANNOT HANDLE PIDGEOTTO EVEN WITH REFLECT



badges: 2
hours: 1:56
dex: 3

bayleef (tackle, growl, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 17
geodude (tackle, defense curl, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 19
egg

>BAYLEEF HANDLED HIKERS AND WATER TYPES BETWEEN VIOLET AND AZALEA
>GEODUDE TAKES CARE OF ROCKETS AND BUGSY



badges: 3
hours: 2:40
dex: 4

bayleef (headbutt, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 22
geodude (headbutt, defense curl, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 22
egg
sandshrew (cut)

>NEARBY TRAINERS (ROUTE 34) DID NOT LIKE GETTING HEADBUTTED
>BAYLEEF NEARLY SOLO'D WHITNEY GYM, REFLECT/PSN POWDER MILTANK AND HANDED OFF TO GEODUDE FOR THE FINISH



badges: 4
hours: 3:21
dex: 8

bayleef (headbutt, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 25
graveler (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 27
sandshrew (cut)
sentret (cut)
pidgey

>BAYLEEF HELPED KO SOME GASTLYS... GYM SWEPT BY GEODUDE/GRAVELER



badges: 4
hours: 3:40
dex: 10

bayleef (headbutt, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 27
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 27
sandshrew (cut)
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey

>BEAT KIMONO SISTERS, BAYLEEF 2HKO'D ALL EXCEPT FLAREON FOR GRAVELER WHILE GETTING BURNED
>GOT TO MAHOGANY AND EVOLVED GRAVELER TO GOLEM



badges: 4
hours: 3:44
dex: 11

bayleef (headbutt, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 27
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 27
girafarig (tackle, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 15
sandshrew (cut)
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey

>CAUGHT AVIVA THE GIRAFARIG



badges: 4
hours: 4:39
dex: 12

bayleef (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 31
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 29
girafarig (tackle, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 23
lapras (surf, sing, mist, body slam) lv. 20
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey

>CAUGHT CHARLIE THE LAPRAS
>BAYLEEF DESTROYED VARIOUS TRAINERS ON THE WAY (ELITE TRIO AND UNION CAVE DWELLERS)



badges: 5
hours: 6:07
dex: 13

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 32
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 30
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 30
lapras (surf, sing, mist, body slam) lv. 27
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey

>BEAT CHUCK: GIRAFARIG HANDLED PRIMEAPE AND BAYLEEF HANDLED POLIWRATH



badges: 6
hours: 6:14
dex: 13

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 32
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 30
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 30
lapras (surf, sing, mist, body slam) lv. 27
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey (fly)

>BEAT JASMINE: GOLEM>MAGNEMITES, LAPRAS>STEELIX



badges: 7
hours: 7:14
dex: 14

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 34
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 32
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 31
lapras (surf, sing, perish song, body slam) lv. 30
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey (fly)

>BEAT ROCKET HIDEOUT & PRYCE
>MEGANIUM SOLOED WHOLE GYM (EXCEPT JYNX)



badges: 7
hours: 8:23
dex: 14

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 34
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 35
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 35
lapras (surf, sing, perish song, body slam) lv. 35
sentret (cut, surf)
pidgey (fly)

>BEAT RADIO TOWER; MEGANIUM WAS NEARLY USELESS



badges: 8
hours: 9:28
dex: 14

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 37
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 36
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 36
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 36
gyarados(*) (whirlpool, waterfall)
pidgey (fly)

>BEAT CLAIR & GOT BADGE



badges: 8
hours: 10:40
dex: 14

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 39
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 39
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, confusion, stomp) lv. 39
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 39
gyarados(*) (whirlpool, waterfall)
pidgey (fly)

>PRE-E4



badges: 8
hours: 11:26
dex: 14

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 40
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 40
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 41
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 42
gyarados(*) (whirlpool, waterfall)
pidgey (fly)

>BEAT E4



badges: 11
hours: 13:07
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 42
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 43
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 42
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 42
houndoom (bite, ember, roar, faint attack) lv. 33
pidgey (fly)

>CAUGHT HOUNDOUR RIGHT OFF BOAT
>BEAT LT. SURGE, SABRINA, AND ERIKA



badges: 12
hours: 13:31
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 42
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 43
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 42
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 42
houndoom (bite, ember, roar, faint attack) lv. 38
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>BEAT JANINE



badges: 12
hours: 14:16
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, psn powder, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 43
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 43
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 43
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 43
houndoom (bite, ember, flamethrower, faint attack) lv. 41
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>REMOVED EXP. SHARE FROM HOUNDOOM
>LOOPED BACK TO LAVENDER



badges: 13
hours: 15:05
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, giga drain, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 46
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 44
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 44
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 44
houndoom (bite, ember, flamethrower, faint attack) lv. 43
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>DEFEATED MISTY, FIXED POWERPLANT AND GOT EXPN CARD



badges: 14
hours: 15:23
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, giga drain, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 47
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 44
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psybeam, thunder) lv. 44
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 44
houndoom (bite, ember, flamethrower, faint attack) lv. 44
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>BEAT BROCK



badges: 16
hours: 16:25
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, giga drain, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 47
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 47
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psychic, thunder) lv. 47
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 47
houndoom (bite, ember, flamethrower, faint attack) lv. 46
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>ALL BADGES



badges: 16
hours: 16:51
dex: 16

meganium (body slam, giga drain, razor leaf, reflect) lv. 47
golem (headbutt, selfdestruct, rock throw, magnitude) lv. 47
girafarig (strength, shadow ball, psychic, thunder) lv. 48
lapras (surf, sing, ice beam, body slam) lv. 47
houndoom (bite, ember, flamethrower, faint attack) lv. 47
pidgey (fly) / sandshrew (cut)

>BEAT RED

The tier list is based off of efficiency, or as I see it, the convenience and effectiveness of any one Pokemon. This run lead me to finishing within 17 hours, which according to Howlongtobeat.com, is faster than the presented "rushed" results of approximately 20 hours for the main story (i.e. up to Red) where ~30 hours is the average. As far as time is concerned, I would say this was a very efficient run. Convenience (or lack) of using Houndoom is illustrated below.

Now onto some Pokemon analyses.

houndoom.png

Since Houndoom has been the subject of recent discussions, he is first. I would say, despite being a Kanto 'mon, Houndoom does not belong in the lowest tier if an 'F' tier is introduced. Let me describe my experience.

Right after I got off the S.S. Aqua, I immediately went to search for a Houndour on Route 7. After accidentally KOing the first (female) one I encountered, I caught (a male) one shortly after. Level 15 in Gold version is what this thing comes at (18 in Crystal), so immediately it was equipped with the EXP. Share. From switch-training it in Lt. Surge's gym, it grew to just shy of evolution.

After the electric gym, Houndour was able to hold its own against some of the enemies of Route 8 (Saffron to Lavender), where it promptly evolved. Flinchhax with Bite was greatly appreciated. As a late-20s 'mon, I thought it would be worth trying the Psychic gym. Lo and behold, Houndoom had a pretty easy time handling most of the Pokemon in the Psychic gym despite being around 10 levels below everything. Disable from the Drowzee and Hypno trainer was annoying, but they couldn't touch him otherwise.

Sabrina was an interesting match and Espeon was the biggest foe. With Sand-attack and a potential 3HKO with Swift, I promptly roared it out. Mr. Mime was helpless as it spammed Barrier and Reflect and fell after a few Bites. Espeon returns out and I switch in my Girafarig to weaken it with Shadow Ball. Houndoom deserved this win so I switched it back in on a Psychic to finish it off with Bite. Alakazam then reared it ugly mug in an attempt to break Houndoom, however it was left trying to save itself with Recover over and over as I bit into it. Not once did it try to Future Sight, but it did try to use Psychic a few times. I decided to speed the match up and gave Houndoom a couple X-Specials I had lying around (I did not buy these) to secure the win. Efficient? Well, not really since it took longer than muscling through with a more appropriately leveled Pokemon, but since it was nearly impossible to lose this match, I'd say Houndoom was effective here, who ended the gym at around level 29.

Next was Erika's gym. Houndoom was able to fend off some foes with Ember, but was incapable of sweeping teams yet at this point. If you have a Fire Blast TM handy, this stage would probably be easier for Houndoom, but I wanted to see how it fared with only its level-up moves. Against Erika, Houndoom took down Tangela with a bit of a struggle due to Sleep Powder, Bind, and repeated Giga Drains. Lapras and Girafarig easily handled the rest of the match while donating their extra EXP to Houndoom.

After Erika, I took Cycling road to Fuscia and used Houndoom the whole way, save for absorbing a Weezing's Selfdestruct with Girafarig. After defeating Janine, Houndoom no longer needed the EXP. Share as he was now in the high 30s. Looping back to Lavender Town, Houndoom was a solid route sweeper the whole way, only retreating from Pokemon easily taken care of by its teammates.

At this point, Houndoom was simply another member of the team as if he had been there the entire time... at the cost of some precious overall EXP. Few matchups until the end of Kanto really required Houndoom's power, so it wasn't exceptional in that regard since Kanto mostly doesn't require much thinking/power.

The fight against Red was where Houndoom really showed its worth. Espeon and Venusaur were its assigned targets. Against Espeon, Houndoom was potentially 3HKOd against its Swifts. Using one Hyper Potion allowed Houndoom to beat out Espeon with Faint Attack (just in case it tried to use Mud-slap). Against Charizard, my Lapras was lucky enough to land a Sing on it and gave Houndoom another Hyper Potion in the mean time to prepare it for Venusaur.

Venusaur spammed Solar Beam. With no sunlight, it had to charge up every other turn while eating Flamethrowers. Houndoom was able to survive a Solar Beam (potential 2HKO) while 3HKOing Venusaur with Flamethrower. Thus, Houndoom became an important end-game player despite it's required babying. There are no real "grinding" in Kanto, however I think training your team for Red is its sole purpose.

Now, does this look like a bottom-of-the-barrel Pokemon? I don't think so, and although for the first half of Kanto Houndoom required undivided EXP (thanks to its slow EXP group), it ended up as a solid teammate against Red. I think Houndoom in the end was worth its tedious grinding period as a Houndour since it easily handles two of Red's Pokemon, with some potion support. My entire team was at level 47, by the way, and those two Hyper Potions on Houndoom were the only items I used in that fight.

If an F-tier is introduced, Houndoom is definitely an E-tier Pokemon at least. I think D-tier is pushing it a little due to its babying stages, but since the team I formed for the Elite Four was catered for Houndoom's entrance, I'd say he gave me at least that level of performance. Level 15 is a rough entry point, but compared to the likes of other similar Kanto mons *cough* Murkrow *cough*, it was a more than welcome addition for the fight against Red. Which leads me to a Pokemon I discussed a few pages back and which was not on this aforementioned playthough...

tyranitar.png

Since my last post was overshadowed by my arguments for B-tier Chikorita (more on that later), I will reiterate my Tyranitar findings here.

It is seems that Dark types, namely Tyranitar and Houndoom, were considered too powerful by Gamefreak to be introduced before the Elite Four... well, except for Sneasal.. a Pokemon with 35 base Special Attack to support both of its STABs? Give me a break...

Anyway, with 8888 coins in Crystal version, a level 40 Larvitar is yours as soon as you get to Kanto, provided you have a enough funds. Before I got Larvitar, I had to beat Erika and some ajacent route trainers (with the Amulet Coin, of course) to get enough money for this unforeseen member. With some planning, the 180000 Pokedollars required is not too far out of reach upon arriving in Kanto provided you don't buy too many TMs/items and use the Amulet Coin wisely.

Larvitar comes at a great level, which should be just shy of your current party. In the run that I used it, there wasn't anyone who needed the EQ TM, so Larvitar got dibs. This let him sweep LT. Surge and the ubiquitous poison types in the early Kanto routes. I delayed evolution to level 43 to get Crunch early for Pupitar, and combined with Rock Slide, this thing is a serious route cleaner. With EQ, Janine crumbled.

Before fighting Red, you absolutely have to evolve Pupitar into Tyranitar, otherwise this whole pursuit is worthless. Tyranitar destroys Pikachu, Espeon, Charizard, and Snorlax. A majority of the final Boss's team falls to this monster. Which is why Tyranitar is anything but F-tier. Even if the E/F tier split does not happen, I think Larvitar (C) is a candidate for D-tier. A couple others in this thread have seemingly used this beast to success as well, so placing it in the bottom tier is simply an oversight in my opinion. Larvitar (GS) can rot in F since it is found in Mt. Silver.

By the way, Celebi is currently ranked C, which comes at a lower level (30) than Larvitar. I have not personally used it myself yet, but I can't really imagine it being THAT much more effective than Tyranitar. Granted, getting to level 55 is a pain, so I'll give it that. This tells me that Larvitar (C) should for sure be at least D rank.

For Houndoom and Tyranitar, their required focus is essential to their success, which can take away from strengthening your current party. However, with some foresight with regard to your weaknesses against Red, either of these Pokemon can bring you to victory more easily.

golem.png

Nothing really to say here. I kept Selfdestruct with hopes of having to use it but I never did. Magnitude handled most things, and Rock slide/Strength as needed. This thing is undoubtably A-tier. Some people have said that its usefulness dwindles slightly after the E4, but I found it to be an indispensable Pokemon throughout the entire playthrough. Great attack and defense, just avoid water and grass moves like the plague, obviously.

girafarig_gold.png

A solid B-tier Pokemon. I would say the only thing keeping it back from A-tier is that it's frail. Going to Route 43 right after beating Morty is really no big sidetrack. You have to fight a couple trainers and maybe "lose" 15 minutes. Its great movepool with Normal and Psychic STAB proved useful many times. I didn't get to a Sunday for Return, but Strength definitely sufficed. Shadow Ball was great for opposing Psychic types and Thunder is for one thing only.. Gyarados. Lance's Gyarados used Rain Dance the first turn after I missed with Thunder.. so you can probably guess how that turned out.

lapras_gold.png

This is a wonderful Pokemon. If anything it's at the top of the B-tier. STAB Ice Beam through level-up (albeit a bit later than you first get it) and Surf for power. Body Slam is useful in a pinch and gives some nice random paralysis. It can also learn Thunder and Psychic, but I had no need for that in my playthrough. As mentioned in my Houndoom summary, I kept Sing on my Lapras. Its 55 accuracy is laughable, but Lapras has so much bulk that it can afford to miss in the few scenarios that Sing comes in handy. Of course you can opt this out for one of the aforementioned offensive options.

Backtracking to get Lapras is a bit of a sidequest. There are many trainers to fight on the way to it in Union Cave, not to mention that you have to plan on getting to that point on a Friday. Its slow EXP group doesn't help but since it was able to find its way into many battles it was easy to support. Lapras's part Ice-type was great against the few (but important) dragons in the game, but having to worry about supereffective fighting, rock, steel, and neutral fire attacks is a bit of a con. Despite this, Lapras is a great addition to the team and is worthy due to its great movepool despite its appended ice-based weaknesses compared with other water types.

meganium_gold.png

So... I hate to open this can of worms again. Many people in this thread have expressed their utter disgust with this Pokemon and I don't want to derail the discussions further... but this thing is B-TIER!! I know that those who feel strongly to its inclusion in C-tier (or even D-tier) will likely brush these points off, but after rereading the oppositions to poor Chikorita I am convinced many of you are simply using it wrong! I realize it may be futile to fight for this, especially since it was at one point B-tier but dropped down and also that the OP appears to be strongly against its existence :) but what the hey this is for fun right?

However as I said I do not wish to derail this discussion... this post is mostly focused on Houndoom and Tyranitar... but I have not seen any convincing arguments as to why this creature belongs in the C-tier AKA "barely usable". Many people who have expressed Chikorita as a B-tier mon appear to be indifferent to its final placement even if they do think it is actually B-tier, and those who condemn it to the lower tiers have frankly been unfair in many of their assessments in my opinion! Somebody has to fight for the improper placement of a Pokemon who deserves more! Please find within the tags my response to common arguments.

Argument 1: Grass types are terrible in this game!

Not every type can be as good as Water, Electric, or even Normal in this game offensively, that is simply the truth. Despite the negative press against the serene grass type, it DOES prove useful in your journey throughout Johto as an attacking type, especially with a decently powered grass type move... such as Razor Leaf.

Back to Chikorita for a moment. Its best move is Razor Leaf... a 55 base power move that doesn't even have 100% accuracy. How can this be any good at all, you may be wondering.

For a moment, forget all of the Gym Leaders. Forget the numerous Rockets who sick their poison types on you, the rival battles, and other major battles (such as the Kimono Sisters). Now, imagine the amount of trainers you face between cities, a huge source of your party's EXP.

Going through the Johto route trainers, not counting the "optional routes" (namely Union Cave), there are approximately 99 trainers. Of these 99 trainers, about 45 of them have a majority of their party which is weak to grass type moves, where "majority" is defined as a trainer who has at least half of their party weak to grass. For example, Lass Dana on Route 38 has a Flaaffy and a Psyduck, which counts as a "majority". Conversely, Sailor Ernest in the Lighthouse has two Machops and a Poliwhirl, which does not count towards the "majority" total, hence the numbers approximately even out since there are trainers who have grass-weak Pokemon that are not counted.

This is almost half of the route trainers who fall to a mighty Razor Leaf, and if they don't, your grass type can handle a hit or two for a guaranteed 2HKO with their additional "coverage" move. Not to mention that Bayleef has access to Headbutt to assist in taking down those that are not weak to Razor Leaf. Not a perfect solution, but few route Pokemon can survive more than two Headbutts from a Bayleef, in my experience.

Argument 2: Bellsprout is better anyway!

Bellsprout is a fine Pokemon and even though it is regarded as Chikorita's rival, I think it is a bit more complicated than to say that Bellsprout is easily the best grass type. Yes I've read Molk's wonderful playthrough using Bellsprout and I also have done a playthrough of my own using this sassy root.

bellsprout.png


In Molk's playthrough, he utilizes wrap to stall out various early- to mid-game opponents. Although effective, I would not call this necessarily efficient. In my playthrough, I mostly went for the Growth setup with Vinewhip, yielding what I would imagine a similar amount of time to KO most opponents. I also evolved my Bellsprout in Crystal to a Victreebel as soon as I obtained a Leaf Stone (mid 20s) instead of waiting for Razor Leaf like Molk did. Molk even says that he had to grind his Bellsprout line numerous times and at some points it appears to be slightly overleveled. For example, I hardly ever get a Pokemon to level 42 before the Elite Four as Molk did (when Weepinbel learns Razor Leaf), and he says that his party was in the mid 50s/early 60s for the Red fight. That is a lot of extra grinding in my opinion.

To be fair, Sludge Bomb is certainly a great move without a lot of competition as a TM, but it is at this point where Bellsprout and Chikorita become difficult to compare. Additionally, Bellsprout gets the excellent Sleep Powder. It is here where the difference begin to complicate the "best grass type" analysis. The Bellsprout line can kill a lot of things at the expense of time once you Sleep the opponent, or can pick them off with a neutral Sludge Bomb (even though nothing is weak to this move, save for your Rival's possible Meganium). The secondary poison type gives Bellsprout a disadvantage defensively, however. The Chikorita line can endure Earthquakes and don't flinch much to Psychic moves, plus their superior defense gives them type to take an opponent down with either Body Slam or a Razor Leaf. Meganium also has screen support, which comes in handy for big battles.

In the end, Victreebel is a stronger offensive Pokemon than Meganium ever ends up to be, sporting an extra STAB, but if you look at the convenience of raising one over the other, you will find that Bellsprout has indeed a rougher start compared to Chikorita. Chikorita's performance is honestly extremely constant throughout the entire game where Bellsprout's performance increases. I would estimate the total area under these so-called performance curves would be about equal by the end of the game, since Kanto is a cakewalk for both anyway.

Some may even say that Bellsprout is B-tier, but I think it has enough shortcomings in its early game stages that simply do not exist for Chikorita, and if Bellsprout really is B-tier then they both can reside there. Again, it is difficult to compare the two simply as Grass types. If Chikorita got Sleep Powder I think it would be undoubtedly better than Bellsprout, and vice versa if Bellsprout got Razor Leaf earlier. This is not a fair comparison as they each bring something unique to a team.

Argument 3: Its match-ups against important trainers suck anyway!

Indeed, the Chikorita line does not offer a simple 1v1 solution to many of the Johto Gym Leaders and Elite Four members, however it is a very good team player to support these matches, even if it is barely used in some of them. For example, Reflect support is great against troublesome opponents, such as Miltank Bruno, and Lance, which is admittedly not too much to write home about. It can take on Pryce's entire gym by itself, save for the single Jynx, while laughing off weak Aurora Beams and retaliating with Razor Leaf, and of course Chuck's Poliwrath can't do too much along with Clair's Kingdra (Reflect for Hyper Beam and PSN powder does nicely here). Matchups are in fact Chikorita's biggest weakness as it does not contribute much to important Gym Leaders, but it is capable of taking hits to weaken troublemakers to make way for a more appropriate sweeper.

As for Rockets, it can still do damage and at least 2HKO a lot of the grunts since you likely have a good level advantage at those points, so I don't see how this is much different from many Normal and Water types 2HKO with their respective STABs. Plus, Meganium can tank a lot of their weak Sludges anyway. Efficient for beating them? Not really, but Meganium is useful elsewhere and is still no deadweight.

Argument 4: Well... I don't like it and you should just pick Cyndaquil or Totodile!

Fair enough about not liking this Pokemon, it is a bit strange, but opportunity cost should NOT matter in these tierings. You could pick Totodile and easily sweep the game with the help of at least one other A or S rank member, such as Abra. Totodile is S, Cyndaquil is A, and Chikorita is B. This is a fair assessment of the starters and it makes sense. It clearly illustrates that picking Chikorita does not offer the same efficiency as the other two. Why on Earth does it need to be ranked so much lower? Starters are designed to be easy to use, hence some degree of convenience and efficiency is automatically implied.

I get it. Chikorita is a simple creature and does not appear to offer much on a team. Its movepool is shallow and its offensive stats aren't spectacular. But, its movepool is enough to get the job done. Razor Leaf and Body Slam are fine for taking out many Pokemon and the numerous 2HKOs you get out of them are fine since the Chikorita family has great defenses and a good defensive type by resisting heavy attacking types such as Water, Electric, and Ground. You may not appreciate it, but it does its fair share during a run by being there when you need it to KO some grass-weak types or take a hit to weaken/KO with Body Slam, heal, or set up a screen. Expecting it to be a killing machine is just unrealistic, it is much more suited to support and is a reliable Pokemon when its Grass-type offence is suitable. Yes you could use a Thunder or Icepunching mon, but Grass brings great coverage for the team as a single type. Gyarados and Tentacool be damned, but Grass is an all-around effective attacking type. Yeah you can teach Meganium EQ, but I've never done that and I don't really see how it would help it that much.

Availability is one of Chikorita's greatest assets because as soon as you obtain it, it is ready to go and perform consistently throughout your whole run. Its medium-slow experience group allows it to sit back in a lot of major battles while still keeping up (and sometimes exceeding) the leveling pace of the team. Whether you need it to take down a Graveler or a Marill, this line is ready to switch in and earn enough EXP to stay in line with your team. Hell, I didn't even need to bring it out against every opponent it was strong against since it leveled up so easily.

P.S. The only set I use is:
Tackle -> Headbutt -> Body Slam
Poisonpowder -> Giga Drain
Razor Leaf
Reflect -> Light Screen (in the event you get Light Screen at Lvl. 41 before fighting Lance I suggest replacing Poisonpowder)

Anything else is superfluous and unecessary unless your trying to solo the game with it... in that case goodluck and EQ should definitely be used.

I've picked Chikorita in 3/4 runs I've done in the past few months and I did not ever regret it, since finding a good Water type is so easy (Quagsire, Poliwag, Lapras, Psyduck, etc.), and fire type is more or less a bonus attacking type to have (Fire Punch is ubiquitous too!), much like grass is. Am I crazy for liking this Pokemon so much? Maybe.

Argument 5: It seems out of place in B tier.

This thing should be B tier, even if it is at the absolute minimum threshold to get in there. It is not spectacular by any means, but it is surely not a deadweight and can pull through sticky situations with its bulk and reliability. Many B tier Pokemon are clearly stronger than it at taking out more mons, but they suffer from significant attention (Espeon), backtracking (Lapras), or late availability (Jynx, Seel). Chikorita has perfect availability and is so easy to train. It pairs excellently with other early Pokemon notably Geodude, Spearow, and Pidgey, nullifying its pisspoor early gym/Rocket matchups. And even if you did use just Chikorita for the first couple gyms I suspect it would do all right with its bulk and a couple potions, regardless there's a reason you can have more than one party member.

C tier mostly consists of early Pokemon that are outclassed by their higher ranked counterparts such as Hoothoot or Drowzee, aren't obtainable or fully evolved until later such as Skarmory or Steelix, require too much investment with subpar payoff such as Crobat or Umbreon, suffer from STAB deficiency such as Pinsir and Heracross, or unremarkable water types such as Goldeen or Mantine. Chikorita deserves a team slot more than than all of them as far as convenience, effectiveness, and time investment, and therefore total efficiency, is concerned.

Finally, a few minor nitpicks on the current list in the OP:

  • I mentioned this before but why is Tyrogue (C) all the way up in C-tier while the rest of the Odd Egg Pokemon are stuck lower? If Tyrogue is that high, Magby definitely should be, though I think the Odd Egg mons should not exceed D tier (or E tier if F is created) due to the unreliability of getting something good.
  • On the same note, Magby (C) and Magmar (C) should be combined as one entry since I don't think you can catch Magmar in Crystal.
  • If Aipom is being considered for B-tier, then Snubbull should join him. I used Snubbull on a recent Crystal run and it shares the fast EXP group with Aipom, is a bit bulkier albeit slower, and has more power on both stats. Granbull is basically a slightly slower and weaker Ursaring so I do not see why it is two whole tiers below.
 
A lot of cool information here. Props to everyone chipping in.

Doing my first playthrough at the moment, and got a team with Nidoking, Suicune, Miltank, and Typhlosion which are all A tier. Of the lot I found using Nidoran to be the most frustrating. No good stab until earthquake, frail, and TM dependent, not to mention going out of the way for moonstone. Doesn't really seem to fit in effectiveness with the others I'm using. Miltank is probably the beast of the lot so far, with stomp and later body slam being godly stab attacks, and milk drink saving countless potions.

I do have a nitpick with the thread however, well more of a query really. Shouldn't the tiers be in the descriptive format of High/Mid/Low etc. if they're going to be published on the website like the other in game tier guides, as opposed to S/A/- ?

Anyway, hoping we can have a cool final product worthy of a rather awesome game!
 
A lot of cool information here. Props to everyone chipping in.

Doing my first playthrough at the moment, and got a team with Nidoking, Suicune, Miltank, and Typhlosion which are all A tier. Of the lot I found using Nidoran to be the most frustrating. No good stab until earthquake, frail, and TM dependent, not to mention going out of the way for moonstone. Doesn't really seem to fit in effectiveness with the others I'm using. Miltank is probably the beast of the lot so far, with stomp and later body slam being godly stab attacks, and milk drink saving countless potions.

I do have a nitpick with the thread however, well more of a query really. Shouldn't the tiers be in the descriptive format of High/Mid/Low etc. if they're going to be published on the website like the other in game tier guides, as opposed to S/A/- ?

Anyway, hoping we can have a cool final product worthy of a rather awesome game!
The tiers already on the website use an outdated format and method of judging Pokémon and are all going to be replaced at some point. If you poke around the Orange Islands sub-forum a bit more, you'll see new Tier Lists for just about every game :)
 
The tiers already on the website use an outdated format and method of judging Pokémon and are all going to be replaced at some point. If you poke around the Orange Islands sub-forum a bit more, you'll see new Tier Lists for just about every game :)
Cheers mate. Hopefully we can get an FRLG one going too!
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Here's the next batch from me. I'm actually getting close to finishing up all the runs I intend to do. I can say now that I will be using Tauros for the next run that I do. Given how much I've been shitting on it in this thread, I guess it's time!

The following is for Gold and Silver as usual.

Chinchou

1537002067744.png


This is glorious. Chinchou is yet another great mid-game Water that benefits from convenient location and catch level, well-rounded stats and immediate access to a powerful STAB.

The main thing it has to distinguish itself from other Waters is its Electric-type and Spark. These attributes make Chinchou one of the best Waters for dealing with other Waters and that's useful considering the Water routes leading to Cianwood are coming up for it. In addition, Water/Electric is a fantastic attacking combo for when it comes - Chinchou has great match-ups against Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce, and it's also able to do more damage to Clair's Kingdra that a lot of the other Waters can do.

On the flip side, Chinchou doesn't get any Ice moves in Gold/Silver - not even Icy Wind. This makes Chinchou less effective against Grass-types and the Dratini line than the Ice Punching Waters. I personally prefer the Electric STAB since I think Grass is pretty easy to cover elsewhere on a team, but it does mean that Chinchou will need a bit of help at times. Vileplume is used by 2 compulsory trainers and there is a Grass gym leader for you to beat after becoming champ, so Chinchou would prefer Fearow or something to deal with those.

Chinchou is also in the Slow experience group and needs to grind to level 25 for Spark so it doesn't have the Water-slaying power on its side right away, although i didn't find this to be a huge speed bump. I suppose Chinchou could try Rain Dance/Thunder as well but Spark is good enough.

Overall, I think Chinchou is the best of the mid-game Good Rod Waters in Gold/Silver and is right up there with Lapras in viability for efficient runs.

Doduo

1537002159923.png


Unfortunately, this thing's late appearance dooms it to the lower tiers, but it still has situational usefulness for some runs. Flying STAB is very useful for the Elite 4 and beyond, and Doduo learns Drill Peck at level 33 (as long as evolution is delayed), so if you somehow find yourself lacking this sort of coverage at this point in the game, Doduo might be the Pokemon for you. Tri Attack is also neat since Return won't be very powerful when it's first caught. It isn't too difficult to grind it against the Grass-types on Route 44 either.

However, much like Ponyta, Doduo is also competing with other Pokemon for a team slot that provide the same coverage: Lugia and Ho-oh. Lugia's Aeroblast does more than Dodrio's Drill Peck due to the power advantage, and Ho-oh is just way stronger (albeit while relying on Fly), and they have so many other perks over Doduo that it ends up being difficult to justify using it even in the above situation. That's before you bring up Pidgey and Spearow existing.

Comparisons aside, Doduo will fall somewhere in the D/E tier range depending on how much you want to weigh its availability against it. I factor availability quite heavily myself but it's effective during the brief time it's on your team.

Krabby

1537002019109.png


This Water appears quite unique in terms of stat distribution, although it's actually built similarly to Gyarados: both have high Atk, decent Speed when evolved, and terrible Sp. Atk, with the defensive distribution being the main point of difference. Krabby therefore doesn't place a lot of important on its Water STAB as other Waters do, although STAB Surf is still useful at times.

There are a few ways to obtain Krabby. For this run, I went with the Old Rod method. This is the earliest time that Krabby can be obtained, although it requires a longish back-track from the entrance of Union Cave to Cherrygrove City. At that point it's at level 10 and only has Bubble, but since Bubble destroys Geodude and Onix regardless, it doesn't take much effort to get it to level 12 for ViceGrip. ViceGrip in particular helps make up for its lake of Headbutt and Swift to an extent.

It is probably worth noting here that Krabby has 105 Atk, which is equal to that of Feraligatr and impressive for an unevolved Pokemon. Despite this, I was underwhelmed by it. I guess at that early point of the game, differences in stats really don't mean a great deal, so it wasn't exactly rampaging through things any better than a starter spamming Headbutt. I also found it to be a bit slow at times, but maybe I expected too much of 50 Speed. In any case, Krabby doesn't do anything essential during the early parts of the game, so it might be better to wait for the Good Rod to obtain it. That method doesn't require a back-track and it'll be able to learn Strength and Surf immediately, which is its main form of offense. It really doesn't get much outside of those (it gets Dig as an egg move but isn't compatible with the TM). Perhaps I should mention that it gets Guillotine at level 27, earlier than any other Pokemon in the game with OHKO move access, but I explained my lack of interest in that move when I did Pinsir and I'm not not getting excited over it now.

I did find Kingler to be pretty effective. 130 Atk and 75 Speed is nothing to scoff at, and it can work wonders on routes and the like just by spamming Strength on things. That's really all it does though. The lose of 100% critting Crabhammer as a STAB option was a significant nerf compared to gen 1.

Comparing Krabby to other Waters is difficult. I personally view Krabby in a similar way to Heracross and Pinsir in terms of function, in that it is more like a Normal-type without the STAB boost than a typical Water-type. But I don't think it holds a candle to Chinchou/Lapras/Tentacruel/etc. Krabby belongs further down the viability list near the likes of Goldeen and Horsea.

Machop (with trade)

1537002140114.png


Machop is obtainable as an in-game trade in Goldenrod City, and it seems designed to be the ultimate Miltank counter. It's basically the only thing with Fighting moves at that point in the game, it resists Rollout, it has a Gold Berry attached to recover from some Stomp damage, and it even comes as a female which means that Attract is ineffective against it. However, Machop's effectiveness in that match-up will depend on how much Miltank spams Stomp since it has the Speed advantage, and Machop is prone to flinching and isn't exceptionally bulky even with the Gold Berry. In this run, Miltank used Rollout which lead to Machop just sweeping her team - there aren't many Pokemon that can claim to do that.

Machop is useful beyond that because Fighting is a solid offensive typing that is also quite rare. There aren't a lot of Fighting-types worth using in GS. Mankey is probably the only other one that's worth the time (I don't really count Heracross as "Fighting" due to its reliance on Normal moves, and Poliwrth is post-champion in GS and functions more like a Water-type anyway). Machop also has boosted experience (and isn't difficult to obtain since Drowzee is readily available), high Attack and bulk, and decent coverage options like Dig/Earthquake, and even the elemental punches (Machamp's 65 Sp. Atk is just good enough to use these for selected route targets imo).

Machop has a few issues. The main one is limited options for STAB. Machop has a neat signature move in Vital Throw which is the strongest accurate Fighting move in GSC (don't say Reversal haha), but it has negative priority, which won't matter in some match-ups due to its low Speed but does cause it to eat extra hits on routes. Machop's strategy will probably involve having both Vital Throw and Karate Chop, with the latter being used for routes quite often, but if it can't OHKO with Karate Chop then it's taking a hit no matter what it uses (Karate Chop is often better to use against faster stuff anyway since 2 Karate Chops do more damage than 1 Vital Throw with the result still being Machop taking a hit, plus Karate Chop has a high crit rate). Machop also evolves a bit later than would be ideal, and as mentioned above, it's Speed is lacking.

I chose to evolve Machoke for this run. I haven't tried Machoke yet but just from observing Machamp taking hits, etc., I suspect the stat difference (including a massive 30 point difference in Atk) might be important. The difference between trade/no trade is obviously not going to matter as much as with Haunter, but it seems more important than with Graveler and Kadabra, so I'm inclined to say that a tier difference between trade and no trade is justified in this case.

Either way, I agree with Machop's current placement in B-tier assuming it can be fully evolved by the player. I think a lot of that comes down to the Whitney match-up, but it has several good match-ups after that too and packs quite a punch with 130 Atk.

Meowth

1537001938854.png


Another Mid-game Normal. This one is less powerful than the others, but that's more of a reflection of how good those are rather than of Meowth being bad. Meowth is still decent on its own terms. It's a little weak before evolving, roughly in the same tier as Jigglypuff in term of raw power, albeit with way better Speed. I just threw Headbutt on it and it did OK on routes. It wishes it could evolve earlier given the middling attacking stats, but once it does it is basically like Aipom/Raticate/Furret but with amazing Speed.

Meowth's move pool falls somewhere between Tauros and Furret in terms of size and quality. Meowth somehow lacks Dig, but it at least gets Shadow Ball and Bite/Faint Attack for the occasional Ghost. The fact that it is a Normal-type with Bite is kind of nice because it allows it to do well against Morty's gym (and unlike Snubbull it has an actual Speed stat). Thunder and Icy Wind can be added to make it some bizarre mixed attacker. Pay Day can also be used to get some extra cash but the gains are minimal and not worth the use of such a weak move outside of finishing stuff that survived Headbutt/Return off.

I can't think of much else to say about it. It's a fairly generic Normal-type, perhaps a Normal-type equivalent to Goldeen or something. It's hard to justify its use over other Normals, but it does fine with what it has and should be C-tier minimum in my opinion.

Oddish

1537002091464.png


For all intents and purposes, Oddish is identical in Bellsprout in terms of the role it plays, except it's even worse since it comes at a less useful time (missing out on those Water- and Rock-types on Route 32 and in Union Cave that Bellsprout is able to assist Quilava in removing) and has less power, epsecially with only having Absorb for Grass STAB for quite a while. Having said that, Oddish can still be of use for Cyndaquil users since it can beat Croconaw/Feraligatr and helps with the Water routes and the occasional Geodude/Graveler/Onix. It also gets Petal Dance eventually, although it won't see much use outside of Kanto. Much like Bellsprout, Oddish has a convenient grinding opportunity, in this case in Union Cave against the Geodude and Onix. I did this run in Silver; Gold offers even better grinding because of Sandshrew's presence.

It is worth noting that Oddish has the opportunity to evolve in Johto with the Sun Stone, which most other Stone evolvers can't boast in Gold/Silver. However, I actually question whether this is the best way to use Oddish. Bellossom's Sp. Atk and Speed are only marginally improved over Gloom's, and the Atk boost is offset by the STAB boost Gloom receives for Sludge Bomb (which can only be learned as a Gloom anyway - Bellossom isn't compatible with the TM while Gloom is), so ultimately all you get is some more bulk and a miniscule boost to its Grass moves, at the expense of a stronger Sludge Bomb which is its strongest move when it arrives and remains that way for the rest of Johto. I therefore chose to leave Gloom unevolved for this run. I'm not entirely convinced that Bellossom deserves to be a tier above Vileplume for this reason.

Oddish is probably the third best Grass-type after Bellsprout/Chikorita, but that's more of a reflection of how mediocre the Grass-types are in this game rather than of Oddish being particularly good. As mentioned above, Oddish can be useful for Cyndaquil users due to its type synergy but even then it is burdened with low Speed and asucky move pool, with many underwhelming match-ups.

Onix (no trade)

1537002049369.png


I just used this for completeness since I've done Steelix already. All I'll say is that I'm still convinced that Onix's tier placement should not be impacted by the players ability to evolve it. Separate entries for both options are fine I guess, but they should be in the same tier since it is unreasonable to assume that it will evolve before the S.S. Anne, and at that point Onix is still going to be doing plenty in Kanto (some match-ups are worse than Steelix but it's better against Blaine/Blue's Arcanine/Red's Charizard and just as good as Steelix in some other match-ups).

Sunkern

1537001996058.png


This was less bad than I was expecting, but still pretty bad. It offers the same thing that most Grass-types do, which is little. Sunflora's main niche among the Grass-types is the Sp. Atk of 105, which is only second to Exeggutor (which isn't going to happen for you in Gold/Silver) and is well above the unevolved Grass alternatives at that point. It also isn't all that hard to grind up as Sunflora - it's in the Medium Slow group and gets plenty of HP from Drowzee.

It is sadly stuck with Mega Drain for a while. Annoyingly, Sunflora does have Razor Leaf in its move pool, but it only learns it by evolving at level 10 or below. Since the Sunkern in National Park seem to be at level 11 minimum, Razor Leaf is unobtainable unless you go to the trouble of breeding a new Sunkern, which I obviously do not recommend. But Mega Drain still does decent damage when compared to, say, Quilava's Ember. It gets Petal Dance at level 31 too, and that exacerbates the power difference between itself and the Grass-types even more for a while. The rest of its move pool is similar to other Grass-types: Sludge Bomb and Normal moves. Sunflora's 75 Atk isn't terrible but the lack of STAB on Sludge Bomb makes it less useful here than for Weepinbell and Gloom.

Some other flaws warrant mentioning. Firstly, its Speed is pretty bad. Level advantage helps sometimes but it does get outsped often. Sunflora's special bulk is at least decent, although its physical bulk is not, so the Speed matters sometimes. Another problem with Sunflora is that you'll want to evolve it right away, and that requires winning the Bug-Catching Contest first. I was able to win it fairly quickly for this run but there is a lot of RNG involved with the scoring system, so much so that simply catching a full HP Scyther isn't necessarily a guaranteed win. I can definitely see an unlucky player being stuck here for longer than would be considered reasonable.

I wouldn't recommend Sunkern to someone doing an "efficient" run, but I do think that compared to other Grass-types, it has its advantages and disadvantages. Again, people who chose Cyndaquil will find some use for Grass-types, and Sunkern is no exception. While it is clearly less viable that Bellsprout for this purpose, I honestly don't view Sunkern as being any worse than Oddish overall.

Zubat

1537012003249.png


This has been discuss in this thread a lot already and I don't have much to add that hasn't been said already.

I chose to use Zubat from the beginning rather than wait. I can confirm that it's pretty bad initially. Leech Life as its only damage attack is pathetic not just because of the low power but also because of the PP. The fact that Zubat walls Bellsprout is helpful but the low PP of Leech Life is an unavoidable obstacle. Thankfully, Zubat learns Bite at level 12 and is compatible with the Swift TM, but even then it's kind of underpowered in comparison to an average early route Normal or the starters.

So yes, perhaps it's wiser to skip all of that and catch a wild Golbat once Surf is usable outside of battle, perhaps utilising a Friend Ball or X Item spam to increase its happiness quickly. Crobat itself is not too bad thanks to its amazing Speed and decent stats overall, but I actually found it to be identical in function to Scyther in that it's focused on Normal moves initially but eventually gets Wing Attack (it doesn't get Sludge Bomb or Shadow Ball in this gen), except that obtaining Crobat in the first place is more convoluted.

I would just leave this where it is on the tier list. It doesn't deserve to be higher than C-tier in my opinion.
 
Either way, I agree with Machop's current placement in B-tier assuming it can be fully evolved by the player. I think a lot of that comes down to the Whitney match-up, but it has several good match-ups after that too and packs quite a punch with 130 Atk.
Having used Machamp too recently, did you ever use Cross-chop? Alongside Karate Chop, I found it to be great killing a few things faster, such as Umbreon and Snorlax, without losing to priority, even if it's accuracy isn't great. In Kanto, Machamp is basically faster than everything anyway and Karate Chop or Strength suffices. My real question is, what is keeping Machamp out of A tier? It's bulk and speed are nearly identical to Ampharos, and it's physical strength is comparable to Golem. It does suffer by not having great STABs like Thunderpunch or Earthquake, but I think it's able to get by with it's pure power alone. It also enjoys Dig/Earthquake, can 2HKO most things with Strength, and let's be honest 55 speed is not terrible with the badge boosts; you're able to outspeed a lot of route trainers. Machamp can stand up to almost every Johto gym leader with its bulk and pure power, but it does need Dig for Morty. It does suffer a bit against the E4 but even then it can still contribute (except Will) and is hardly ever completely walled. Machamp suffers from her movepool and below average speed, but makes up for it with her amazing availability (right before Whitney) PLUS boosted EXP. It's definitely a borderline case, but I think Machamp is just as good a teammate as some of the other A-rankers, such as Teddiursa (C) and Golem. I believe the only big thing holding her back is MUSCLE's movepool.

Anyway, I played through Silver and decided to use a different Dark type upon arriving at Kanto since I tried out Houndour last time.

murkrow_silver.png

Murkrow

Don't bother with the ones on Route 7 (where Houndour is found), grab one east of Celedon on Route 16 (near the house where you get Fly in RBY). This Murkrow comes around 10 levels higher at level 28. You can access it right after you get off of the boat. Right away (after slapping on the EXP. Share and teaching it Fly), Murkrow was able to stand a chance against some of the neighboring trainers until getting Faint Attack at level 31.

Untouched by nearly every trainer in Sabrina's Gym, Murkrow had an easy time until Sabrina herself. Espeon spammed Swift which dealt 3HKO damage, but potion stalling and Faint Attack helped bring it down. Mr. Mime is no match. Alakazam was troublesome since Faint Attack did only slightly more damage than what Recover was bringing back, I got lucky with a crit. With more training Murkrow could have performed a bit better.

After Sabrina I went straight to Erika's Gym to unleash Fly on everything. It has some issues taking hits and receiving status, but overall it did fine. It's power was a bit underwhelming and, again, would have benefited from more training.

The rest of Kanto, Murkrow's performance was relatively unremarkable. When Fly is your strongest move you know something isn't quite right. Murkrow caught up to the rest of the team (Feraligatr, Ampharos, and Machamp fwi) after beating Janine, Misty, and the available surrounding trainers before waking Snorlax. I completely forgot about Lt. Surge until after beating Blue, but obviously Murkrow is no help there anyway. Sabrina and Erika are Murkrow's only notable matchups.

Against Red, Murkrow was out-KO'd by Espeon's Swift so I had to use potions against it. Venasaur was a bit tougher but if it didn't use Sunny Day I could Fly on it's Solar Beam turns. Extra team support was required.

Overall, Murkrow is a bottom tier mon, despite it's unique typing and okay offensive stats. It's simply too frail and it's movepool leaves more to be desired with Fly and Faint Attack as it's strongest moves. The only advantage it has over Houndour is that it comes at a higher level. Other than that, Houndoom was much more useful overall.

.................................

With that, I would like to discuss something that I feel hasn't gotten too much discussion: post-E4 Pokemon. After you beat the Elite Four and have access to Kanto (or even Celebi in VCC), you have quite a few new Pokemon available to you:

Aerodactyl
Chansey
Clefairy
Cubone (GS)
Diglett
Electabuzz
Grimer
Houndour
Kangaskhan
Larvitar
Magmar (C)
Misdreavous
Mr. Mime
Murkrow
Pikachu
Porygon
Slugma
Sneasel (GS)
Snorlax

Right off the bat you'll notice that all of these Pokemon, except for Snorlax, are found in the bottom tier. This sort of placement makes sense at first due to Kanto generally being a pushover, and the fact that training what you've already caught pre-E4 is just a better idea in general for fighting the Kanto leaders and Red. However, I think more discussion is necessary on Kanto regarding their viability, especially since an F-tier is being proposed. We should look at a Pokemon's strengths against the gym leaders and most importantly Red. A Pokemon's availability, even though by default most of them have "shit availability", should be considered since you obtain them at different points in Kanto. Some you get right off of S.S. Aqua while others are damned to Mt. Silver. Here is a brief breakdown of Kanto availability:

RIGHT OFF SS AQUA (no trainers along the way)

Grimer
Houndour
Larvitar(C) (GAME CORNER)
Mr. Mime (GAME CORNER)
Murkrow
Porygon (GAME CORNER)
Slugma



PRE-SNORLAX

Aerodactyl
Chansey
Cubone (GS)
Electabuzz
Kangaskhan



REQUIRES FACING SNORLAX

Clefairy
Diglett
Pikachu
Snorlax



MT. SILVER

Larvitar (GS)
Magmar (C)
Misdreavous
Sneasel (GS)

Of course, Snorlax is an effective yardstick for ranking Kanto Pokemon since it comes at a whopping level 50. I have excluded Ho-oh and Lugia here since level 70 is quite the outlier. Availability is why Snorlax suffers, but his high level make up for it somewhat.

How can anything else found after beating the Elite Four possibly be efficient? If it is viable against Red. The hardest trainer in the game has a few weakness that can be exploited, and these weaknesses can be exploited by a few Kanto Pokemon. I think this is what would separate the E and F Kantomons, rather than placing them all in F.

I have previously demonstrated the viability of Tyranitar (C) and Houndoom. Tyranitar can take down a majority of Red's team, at the cost of some attention for its required evolution. Houndoom is less stellar but has nice matchups against Erika and Sabrina's gym giving it some nice training opportunity, although it still requires the EXP. Share. Tyranitar is even potentially D rank material in my eyes, considering you obtain Larvitar at level 40 in Crystal from the Game Corner. Its late evolution, high cost, and appreciation of the EQ TM gives it some heavy resource use, but to beat Red easily it seems like a fair trade-off. If Celebi is petitioned for C or even B, then I do not see why Tyranitar does not have a chance for even a C rank. We all know it's a monster, but it's hurt by its late availability, but in Crystal it is much earlier than most Kantomons.

Houndoom is a different story because it comes at a measly level 15, therefore requiring a lot of attention. However in the end, Houndoom can face off Espeon and Venusaur in the end and it by no means a deadweight once it starts to catch up. Being able to take on Erika and Sabrina while severely under-leveled is a plus, too. This is what would keep it out of F-rank, but probably not good enough to rise to D.

There are other Kantomons that have potential in some niche either against the Gym Leaders or Red, but overall the investment seems inefficient. Things like Mr. Mime, Dugtrio, or even Aerodactyl seem like fine Pokemon given the right investment and attention, but I haven't tried them out. These are just examples, but I think a line can be drawn somewhere on the E/F split regarding Kantomons. In the end, this is just a fun exercise attempting to separate the "shitty" from "extra shitty" and probably provides not much worth. If the E/F tier split happens, Kantomons would likely have to be tested rather than theorymonned for the most part, aside from things that are obviously bad... RIP Slugma <3
 
I sure wish Golduck got Psychic by TM. Seems odd that it didn't get it through TM but it does through breeding. I know it would be a little late for use but it definitely is a lower point for it. Water and Ice is sufficient for Golduck's in-game use at least. Psychic would get use against Janine, but it is true that Psychic doesn't seem that useful in Kanto.

My point is basically that Politoed being a tier below Golduck seems a little odd to me. Politoed gets that extra coverage and you can get Poliwhirl by surfing at the same time as Golduck. Just depends on how much you want to penalize it for trading I guess, but I think Politoed to A wouldn't be unjustifiable.
 
Last edited:
Here's my 2 cents on a few pokes:

Voltorb is surprisingly good, easily the best electric in Crystal, it outspeeds everything and gets Light Screen at lv 34, these two factors lets it run Rain Dance+Thunder much more easily than slow electrics like Ampharos or Magneton. This set counters Clair's Kingdra rather easily due to Rain giving Thunder infinite accuracy, countering it's Smokescreen strategy, it counters Karen's Umbreon for the same reason. Electrode also does well against all the usual things electric is good against. 80 Sp atk isn't amazing but virtually identical to Feraligatr's 79 Sp atk. Selfdestruct/Explosion is a nice emergency option, and Mirror Coat can be surprisingly useful.
And you can get it via in-game trade, giving it boosted exp, something that's more useful in Johto than any other region. The only downside to Voltorb is that it's useless until you get the Thunder tm, and will likely be a little behind in levels, but by the time you get it, the exp share is not far off and you almost have enough money to buy Thunder.

D tier is tragically incorrect, it should be at least C tier, probably B tier. Chinchou is B Tier despite being an exp hog, and Magnemite is C tier despite being somewhat slow, taking Sp atks somewhat poorly due to having 50hp and 70 sp def, and having no good moves outside of Thunder/Rain Dance/Thunder Wave/Spark.

Drowzee is good, I think it's C Tier placement comes from people looking at as an inferior Abra, when it should be looked as a defensive Anti-Psychic+Utility mon, 85/70/115 defenses makes it a good special wall, access to Shadow Ball+Psychic resistance makes it a perfect Psychic counter and unlike other Psychic counters it doesn't need excess babying (Umbreon, Houndoom, Tyranitar, Murkrow), and doesn't have both bad defenses and mediocre offenses (Sneasel, Murkrow again.) The thing that I think cements Drowzee in B tier are Hypnosis and the elemental punches, Hypnosis can potentially disrupt just about any strategy the AI has, and the punches mean Hypno can act as a backup mon in case your main attackers go down. Obviously 73 in both offenses and 65 speed keep it out of A tier, but it has a clear niche that not many mons can claim.

Elekid (C) should be C or D tier, it's problems are well documented in this thread, but Electabuzz has good stats and a great movepool. It also makes no sense that Elekid, Magby, and Smoochum are E tier while Pichu is D tier and freaking Tyrogue is C tier, speaking of which...

Why on earth is Tyrogue (C) C tier? On top of all the problems the Odd Egg mons have, Tyrogue is by far the weakest of the babies before evolving, with only non-STAB Headbutt, Return, and Mud Slap and stats barely better than freaking Sunkern. Even after evolving into Hitmonlee (the only good Hitmon in Gen 2) it still doesn't get Hi Jump Kick until lv26, by that point you're likely long past Whitney, by far the most important time to have a Fighting move, and one of only 3 times in the entire game where Fighting moves are relevant (the other 2 being Karen's Umbreon and Red's Snorlax.) Tyrogue in C Tier is downright baffling, it should be E tier, D tier at most.

Pichu (C) in D tier makes no sense either, you have to raise it's friendship to evolve into Pikachu, then get a thunderstone for Raichu, all of this is a lot of extra work for a mon that would be best described as "Electabuzz, but with slightly worse stats and no movepool outside of thunderbolt." There is absolutely no reason to raise pichu over elekid, drop Pichu to E tier.

Gengar in A makes only a little sense, it's a worse Alakazam that gets Shadow Ball and Hypnosis instead of Psychic moves (barring the Psychic Tm in Kanto), unfortunately it can potentially be outsped and KO'd by the very Psychics he's supposed to be good against, due to Poison type and base 115 Speed (the same as Espeon and worse than Alakazam.) Dropping it to B tier makes sense, it's either the best B tier or the worst A tier, if A+ and A- tiers were a thing I would say A-.

Cyndaquil should be dropped to B tier, it's atrocious mid-game has been stated more than once in this thread, but I also think it's early and late games are overrated. Sprout Tower can be cleared by any flying type just as easily, and Chikorita can tank through it easily too, Bugsy can be cleared by Flying types or by Geodude, in other words, it's early game performance is easily replaced. As for it's late game, Thunderpunch is nice, but it's far from best at using it as far non-electrics go, both Alakazam and Gengar hit harder with it, and also have the advantage of not being weak to water. Earthquake and Return are nice, but with 84 attack, it has steep competition for the moves and may not get them. That just leaves it with it's Fire moves to make it truly great, but let's take a look at what fire is good against; Grass, Bug, Ice, and Steel. Grass and Bug types are easily countered by Flying types, many of them are also part Poison, meaning Psychic counters many of them too, most of the ice types in the game are part-water, and those that aren't have another types, Fire isn't needed here, the only major Steel types I can recall are Magnemite, Steelix, Skarmory, and Forretress, the former three have other weaknesses to exploit, the latter is quad-weak, so almost any fire punch user can OHKO it.

There are only 4 mons across 3 major fights where Typhlosion is clearly the best choice;
Will and Blues' Exeggutors; it's got worse sp def than def, and virtually every bug type with a bug type move is trash, so STAB Fire Blast is the best option.
Will's Jynx; Typhlosion is one of the only mons thats both faster and can OHKO, even here something like Tauros could probably outspeed and OHKO too.
Red's Venusaur; Relies on Sunnybeam, Fire types are the only ones that both resist Grass and get boosted from Sunny Day.
Even in these match ups, while Typhlosion is better, other mons are still very competent.
IMO Typhlosion is a more or less a poor man's Gengar, who is more or less like a poor man's Alakazam.
There could be a case for Cyndaquil to be worse than Chikorita, if only on the grounds that other mons fill Cyndaquil's niche, while there are very few mons that fill Chikorita's niche, but I need to play as Chikorita before I even commit to that angle.

TL,DR
Voltorb from D to B or C, preferably B
Drowzee from C to B
Elekid (C) from E to D or C
Tyrogue (C) from C to E
Pichu (C) from D to E
Gastly (Trade) from A to B, or A- if an A tier split ever happens.
Cyndaquil from A to B
 
I don't see Voltorb as a B rank at all, though C is reasonable. The fact that it requires your first big money dump to be Thunder (it learns literally no other Electric moves) has opportunity cost; you could be making Quilava learn Fire Blast instead, for example. Furthermore, when you actually get Thunder might be up for debate. I was able to scrounge up the money for it after relatively little playtime with Voltorb and doing all exploration plus fighting all trainers. However, if you are playing through pretty fast then it will take a while to get the money for Thunder, in which case Voltorb easily earns its D rank. Truthfully I have always been confused by what the "efficient playstyle" is supposed to be in this respect. Anyways, even after you get Thunder it's still really bad at dealing with normal trainers, having to constantly play Thunder roulette or use a turn setting up Rain Dance. I will agree that it is generally decent to good for boss fights, though, Jasmine excluded.

I have my own nomination: Corsola for D.

Availability-wise, Corsola is obtained by Olivine City, and is easily found (20% encounter). It also has the Fast exp curve, which helps a bit. And like any Water type, it has access to the absurdly strong Surf off a typical (for this point of the game) 65 base special attack. It is slow, but I question how much that really matters for now. As a Rock type with 85 base defense, Corsola can take a ton of hits and I found it needing healing less than most of my team at this point in the game anyways. The only black mark it has in its initial period is the sea to Cianwood, where it has to make do with a resisted Surf, Strength off 55 base attack, or Rollout for longer fights.

Gym-wise, Morty is okay - Surf is strong and muscles through most of his team, but Gengar is iffy even with a Mint Berry. Pretty typical water stuff. Chuck isn't as terrible as it seems - Primeape's Karate Chop is weak and Corsola beats it 1v1 with Surf. No dice on Poliwrath though. It busts through Jasmine's Steelix, but dies to Magnemites. Pryce is nice, it's an easy Rollout sweep whereas a lot of Waters struggle beating Dewgong quickly.

The Radio Tower is pretty good for Corsola as a Rock type, but after that is the end of Corsola's "solid" period. Up to this point, I was fairly fond of it. It's not really better than most Waters, but seriously, Waters are ridiculous at this part of the game. But now the Pokemon start to get better, and the Dragons in Blackthorn gym are particularly problematic due to the weird lack of an Ice move. Clair herself is a total wash unless you have Mirror Coat, which is feasible (level 37) but personally I was a few levels short. The whole Victory Road segment is pretty meh, with Water not being super-effective too often and 65 base special attack really showing at this point.

The Elite Four isn't very good either. Mirror Coat basically lets Corsola delete whichever Pokemon you want vs Will which is nice, but unless you switch out a lot to heal Corsola it's a one-time thing. Koga is a pretty terrible match-up in spite of the Poison resistance, Corsola is set-up bait for Crobat and Muk and Ariados owns it with Giga Drain (lol). Bruno is bad as well for obvious reasons, though it can beat Onix 1v1 (a rare feat, I know!). Karen is also a bad match-up, with Corsola being too weak statwise to even fulfill the usual Water role of beating Houndoom. Corsola's saving grace is a solid match-up vs Lance. It dominates Charizard and slowly beats the Blizzard Dragonite, and can Mirror Coat the Outrage Dragonite.

Kanto goes by okay, though unless you're truly garbage it's hard not to with how underleveled most of it is. Corsola carves out a little niche with Mirror Coat here, being able to 1v1 a lot of the more troublesome foes like Misty's Starmie and the various Alakazams. Red isn't a very good match-up, Corsola beats Charizard and if you're like, level 55+ you can Mirror Coat Espeon which is great. I wasn't that high, though.

Anyways, most of this doesn't sound that great, and it isn't, but all I'm trying to do here is argue Corsola out of bottom tier. As a Pokemon that is solid for a while with no investment, I gotta say that by itself makes it much better than anything else in E-tier. And even if you continue using it, Corsola is bad but can still eke out some potential use with Mirror Coat.
 
I don't see Voltorb as a B rank at all, though C is reasonable. The fact that it requires your first big money dump to be Thunder (it learns literally no other Electric moves) has opportunity cost; you could be making Quilava learn Fire Blast instead, for example. Furthermore, when you actually get Thunder might be up for debate. I was able to scrounge up the money for it after relatively little playtime with Voltorb and doing all exploration plus fighting all trainers. However, if you are playing through pretty fast then it will take a while to get the money for Thunder, in which case Voltorb easily earns its D rank. Truthfully I have always been confused by what the "efficient playstyle" is supposed to be in this respect. Anyways, even after you get Thunder it's still really bad at dealing with normal trainers, having to constantly play Thunder roulette or use a turn setting up Rain Dance. I will agree that it is generally decent to good for boss fights, though, Jasmine excluded.
Yeah, being a money sink sucks for Voltorb, but it vastly outperforms all of D tier and most of C tier, it definitely shouldn't be lower than C, honestly it performs about as well as a B tier, it's just whether or not the money sink problem should keep it out of B. It's performance against bosses way outweighs it's meh performance against randoms, randoms aren't hard. I'll lean towards C, but only because the B tiers are solid without being money sinks, Voltorb outperforms D tier by far too much to be stuck there.

Also, unrelated to the quoted post, I think Drowzee should probably stay in C, having a second look at B tier, there is a clear gap between Drowzee and B tiers, Drowzee is clearly one of the better C tiers though.
 
Hopefully it's ok if I DP, it's been almost a week since the last post.

I've played a couple of teams and can safely give my opinions on them.

Amazing early game, easily the strongest mon pre-Goldenrod, his early evolution onto Quilava makes him stronger and faster than everything else, but Quilava's inability to learn Fire Punch makes him terrible really fast, until the Fire Blast TM is obtained Quilava is just outright terrible, he is outperformed as a Fire type by a majority of Fire Punch users. Once he fully evolves, he somewhat regains his former glory, but he's not the dominating force he once was, Tpunch is nice, but you would rarely ever pit him against a Water type, Return and Earthquake are nice, but with only 84 attack, he's not exactly a high priority user for them, my Typhlosion's final moveset was Fire Blast, Fire Punch, ThunderPunch, and Strength.

Here's how he performed on the major battles;

Falkner: Curb-stomp via evolving into Quilava.
Bugsy: Curb-stomp.
Whitney: Can kill Clefairy, doesn't have the durability to pull off Smokescreen hax on Miltank.
Morty: Can't even OHKO either Haunter with Dig.
Chuck: lolno
Jasmine: Killed the Magnemites easily, but any Dig user can do that, IIRC Quilava couldn't two shot Steelix with Flame Wheel, running damage calcs, Quilava with Charcoal has a very good chance of 2HKO, so I think my Quilava didn't have the best special DV.
Pryce: Could probably muscle his way through Dewgong and Piloswine with Fire Blast, but I didn't have yet, thanks to the cost of another team member.
Clair: Completely useless.
Rival: Sneasel and Magneton go down easily, could probably KO Gengar easily with Earthquake, but my TM went to another team member.
Will: Can potentially KO his entire team, but not advisable, he can only 2HKO the Xatus and they have Confuse Ray, Slowbro is too dangerous to have Typhlosion KO it, if gets off an Amnesia and a couple of Curses, he'll be too bulky to KO without a crit. Jynx and Exeggutor are both OHKO by Fire Blast.
Koga: The Bugs go down easily, but KOing Ariados and Venomoth are hardly feats, and Forretress can be OHKO by almost any Fire Punch user.
Bruno: The Hitmons have high Sp. Def, Machamp has Rock Slide, and Onix resists Fire, not a good matchup for Typhlosion.
Karen: KOs Vileplume and Murkrow easily, with Earthquake he could KO Gengar, but he likely can only take out half of Houndoom's health according to the damage calcs. He basically has KOs on all the easy ones, and isn't great on the actual threats.
Lance: As far as I can tell, Gyarados always opens with Rain Dance, at least if Typhlosion leads, 2HKO with Tpunch before Gyarados attempts to actually attack. Typhlosion also can cripple Charizard before going down, Aerodactyl and the Dragonites are a no-go.

Kanto is a joke except for Blue and Red, so I'll skip to them.

Blue: Exeggutor is an easy KO, attacking the others is not advisable, his Gyarados seems to be smarter than Lance's and will go straight for the KO, Pidgeot is faster and hits Typlosion weaker defense with his STAB, the others are obvious.
Red: Can hurt Pikachu with EQ, but gets outsped and won't OHKO, Venusaur falls but comes closer to KOing than he should, attacking the others is a terrible idea.

Cyndaquil is exactly what I expected, his early game is phenomenal, but it can easily be replaced by Spearow and Geodude, both of whom have significant advantages over Cyndaquil, his mid game is atrocious, without Fire Punch, Quilava becomes extremely weak, Typlosion has a good late game, but he still needs support in order complete the game, so I would hardly call a dominating force.

Honestly, his perfect availability, strong early game, and decent late game don't make up for an atrocious mid game; why is he A tier? Every single A tier except Gengar is better, and Gengar should be B tier anyway for being almost impossible to raise until Lv 21. Cyndaquil should be B tier.

Mareep;
I don't need to say as much for Mareep, he has never disappointed in any game and he's great here, great power, bulk and availability make him great, low speed keeps him out of S tier, Mareep should stay in A tier, he's practically the embodiment of the tier.

Poliwag (Trade);
Once evolved, he's pretty much the best Water type not named Feraligatr, but he's pretty terrible before Surf, he's so close to being A tier, he's better than Cyndaquil and Gengar, but both of them should be B Tier anyway, Politoed should stay in B Tier.

Abra (Trade);
S Tier, enough said.

Machop (Trade);
Very disappointing, he's basically just a discount Geodude for the most part. Machop is way more vulnerable to Miltank's Stomp, a flinch on Machop can spell doom, Geodude barely cares because he tanks better. Red's Snorlax way more dangerous to Machamp than Golem for the same reason, despite SE damage from Machamp. The only major opponent that Machamp is really that good for is Karen's Umbreon, but Umbreon is more annoying than hard anyway. Machamp is a better route cleaner than Golem, due to a more neutral typing, but major fights are more difficult and thus, more important than randoms. In comparison to Golem who fufills almost the same role, Machamp is a Master of none, while Golem is clearly superior or inferior based on the matchup, to it's benefit IMO. IMO, Machamp isn't good enough for B tier, but isn't bad enough for C tier. Soooo, we need more tiers? Probably the one way to accurately assess certain mons.

Umbreon;
Umbreon suffers because the fastest way to increase his friendship is with X item spam, making him a (small-medium size) money sink, he may be better than Hypno at tanking Psychic types, but I would rather have Hypno's versatile moveset and low cost over Umbreon. Umbreon is another one where he should really be between two tiers, half of the C tiers are way better but Umbreon is better than every D tier. IMO C tier should be split, with mons like Chikorita, Drowzee, and the Legendaries in the upper tier, and mons like Umbreon, Aipom, Heracross and Magnemite in the lower one.

Chikorita;
Kinda just meh, he pulled out a couple of cool wins, like beating Chuck's Poliwrath despite meh luck, and stomping Clair's Kingdra, and he functions well as a route cleaner thanks to the abundance of Grass-weak opponents, but he lacks match ups where they matter most. C tier is fine for Chikorita

TL;DR version;
Drop Cyndaquil and Gengar to B
Machamp and Umbreon provide a good argument for splitting up some of the tiers.
The others mentioned here should just stay in their current tiers.
 

Xen

Fish Pokémon Connoisseur
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor
Doing a necrobump here. I'm doing a VC Crystal run rn with my projected endgame team being Feraligatr/Alakazam/Tyranitar/Marowak/Granbull/Ariados. I'll post my thoughts once the run is done, but there's one thing I do want to address real quick.

Crystal Snubbull doesn't deserve to be in C at all.

Snubbull is a lot like a budget Teddiursa in this game, except it trades off slightly less (but still decent) stats for better availability and less bs RNG involved with catching it early on. Another thing Snub has over Teddy is faster exp growth due to being in the Fast class, and an earlier evolution as well (Teddy won't be evolving until near the end of Johto if you catch early).

Though I'm not sure I would necessarily say Snubbull is better than Teddiursa (though personally I like it far more so far), they should both be in the same tier at least, which is A currently for Crystal Teddy. GS Snubbull could arguably stay in C due to the scarcity outside of swarms, but I could argue it could go up to B as well. At the very least though, C is a disservice to Crystal Snubbull
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top