Gyarados (BW2 Revamp) [QC 0/3]

#26
Yeah.. Outrage is just.. no. Double Edge / Frustration are a lot better. Jellicent isn't that great and you can hit it with Earthquake if you really need it. Yeah, I get it Water / Dragon is good coverage but locking in slow, electric weak Gyarados into an UnSTABed (albeit a pretty strong move) is just undesirable.

Choice Band - Waterfall / Double Edge / Earthquake / Ice Fang and Avalanche
Choice Scarf - Waterfall / Doesn't Matter / Doesn't Matter / Doesn't Matter

Pretty much all you need.
 
#27
Outrage should still at least get an AC mention. Also if you really hate Jellicant you can use Bite, which as a SE move is the same as Outrage but without the lock-in.
 

alexwolf

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#28
I tested the CB set and it was decent. Here is how i suggest you make the set:

Gyarados @ Choice Band
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall / Aqua Tail
- Double-Edge
- Ice Fang / Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Other than Waterfall, Double Edge was the move i was using most of the time to catch on the swtch things such as Rotom-W, Scarf Keldeo (that may carry HP Electric), Politoed, Tentacruel, and even the occasional Lati@s. Great neutral coverage and hits hard most of the stuff that switch into Gyarados usually. Then Ice Fang follows up as the next most useful move to revenge kill Dragon-types, and hit Grass-types on the switch hard. Ice Fang also allows Gyarados to always OHKO 4 HP Breloom, acting as a nice check to it, after Sleep Clause has been activated. Stone Edge still lets you revenge kills dragon-types (with worse accuracy though), but also wrecks Kyurem-B and opposing Gyarados switch-ins, which is nice. It also lets you OHKO Volcarona under Sun. Finally EQ is an ok option for Jirachi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Ninetales. Btw physically defensive Jellicent just barely avoids the 2HKO from CB EQ with SR in play (40.44 - 47.64%) and SpD Jelli is always 2HKOed. The EVs allow Gyarados to outpseed max Speed Adamant Breloom and the rest are put to HP. I think that this spread is very good, but if anyone has a better idea i am all ears...

Avalanche is good enough to be in AC, even though its negative priority sucks. Bite can go to AC too i guess, as it can 2HKO Jellicent and Celebi, as well as hit Starmie and Lati@s for very good damage (i know other moves already hit those Pokemon as well, but the point is that Bite hits them all together, sometimes lessening the need for prediction). As for good teammates, LO Starmie and bulky SubPunch Breloom were the best ones i used. SubPunch Breloom can switch into Jellicent with impunity, as well as Gastrodon, defensive Politoed, Rotom-W, and Tentacruel, and then do his stuff. LO Starmie spins for Gyara and provides immense wallbreaking power, leaving almost nothing to stand up to the two water-types (nothing in OU can wall their combo, although Celebi is a bit problematic as the only moves that can 2HKO Celebi are Gyarados's Double Edge and Ice Fang.

Bounce and Outrage are OO material for the Band set and for good reasons. Outrage on every non-Dragon type is a joke, and Gyarados is no exception. Why use Outrage just to hit a Jellicent you are not going to 2HKO anyway (it will just switch out), while you are stuck on a shitty move and many Pokemon can take advantage of you? Similarly Bounce on a choiced mon is a huge risk, because as long as the opponents bulky Steel / Electric / Tyranitar is alive, you ain't gonna do shit with it.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#29
I was asked by alexwolf to post some thoughts about Scarf Gyara, so here I go:

Gyarados (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake


  • Gyarados is a powerful and reasonably bulky revenge killer, and is able to outrun up to +1 max speed Adamant Dragonite. Moxie aids Gyarados in sweeping late game after the opposing team's water resists are weakened.
  • Even though he has solid defensive stats, the lack of Intimidate coupled with a 2X Stealth Rock weakness means he can't reliably counter Lucario and other Fighting types, so pack another solid Fighting resist!

  • Gyara wants an Adamant nature because Jolly doesn't really outpace any prominent Pokes, bar Jolteon and Timid ScarfTran, and appreciates the extra power when revenging some bulkier threats (like DD Dragonite and SD Garchomp).
  • Teammates: anything that comfortably switches into and sets up on Pokes that can tank Waterfall.

  1. Celebi can switch into Rotom-W, Jolteon, and Jellicent, while Scizor can pose an immediate threat to Ferrothorn and Latias.
  2. Gyara also wants Rapid Spin support so that it would be able to function as a more reliable check to things like Volcarona. Some good spinners include Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel, but the latter two share an electric weakness.

  • You're spamming Waterfall 90% of the time, so the other 3 moveslots don't really matter. However, Ice Fang is good for revenging boosting Dragons, Stone Edge is good for Volcarona in the sun, and EQ is good for Tentacruel and Toxicroak.
 

alexwolf

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#30
After talking with SumerMarioBro here is the new EV spread for Bulky DD Gyarados: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe, with an Adamant nature. HP EVs give a lefties number and prevent Jirachi from breaking your subs with Body Slam, while the Speed lets you outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo at +2.

Please also include the Scarf set that SMB posted and the CB that i did.
 
#31
Celebi can check Bulky Waters for Gyarados but Jolteon outspeeds Celebi and there is a chance it has Signal Beam so I don't know if Celebi can check Jolteon for Gyarados.

Edit:

Return is also another option. The combination of Normal + Water coverage is only resisted by 2 fully evolved pokemon, namely Empoleon and Ferrothorn. Being walled by Ferrothorn is however a major disadvantage, and Return doesn't boast great power against bulkier opponents.
You forgot Jellicant.
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
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#32
Hi, are you still willing to work on this? Asking because Alex's suggestions were never implemented the last time this was updated.

EDIT: never mind, I'll reassign it if it isn't updated this Saturday.

DOUBLE EDIT: Yeah I meant Sunday.
 
#34
complete support for scarf gyarados being a set in this analysis, i tested it for a while and it's really powerful under rain, plus a ton of people don't see it coming and attempt to stay in on it and try to get an attack off, that's when you pop em with the attack of your choice. just adding onto what super mario bro already stated, adamant nature is definitely better than jolly due to gyarados's speed being subpar anyways, the extra power is very desirable and frankly jolly doesn't do anything for you other than allow you to outspeed jolteon and aerodactyl, which are both really non-issues in this metagame. good support for scarf gyarados is a defensive forretress and specially defensive celebi core, forry keeps rocks up and tanks big physical attacks from stuff like terrakion while celebi eats up electric attacks and keeps gyarados intact vs stuff like keldeo that can actually provide a decent check to scarf gyara and hit hard back. it's not a scarfer in the traditional view of a bw2 scarfer, but more a late game sweeper that racks up attack boosts and plows through the opposing team. it helps that the most common scarfed revenge killer, keldeo, can't even 2hko under rain without hp electric.
 
#37
Choice Scarf is a real force to be reckoned with. The ability to gain multiple boosts (and water is resited by the omnipresent steels) may seem similiar to Salamence but Gyarados has a much better STAB. Bounce should not get any uses except on DD sets because of the two turns and can end up missing too. Because Cscarf is viable I would say why it outclasses salmence in ways.

- Waterfall gets a rain boost
- no confusion
- not locked into outrage
- flinch rate lets it get 2hkos wo/ any extra damage

for viable teammates you should add in scizor and breloom because they get rid of faster stuff and faster choice users like ScarfKion and Scarfios and Scarfchomp, mamoswine too. Weavile is boss too.

I have used Choice Scarf a lot and has helped me a lot on rain teams and is deadly force to be messed with. A +1 Rain-boosted Waterfall 2HKOs Deoxys-D (possibly flinching) and also it has boos typing too. Jolteon makes a nice offensive core taking Electric type moves aimed at gyarados and gaining momentum by using v-switch. Mainly you should say why it outclasses Salmence in some way but dont only say the pros, say the cons like power and speed too so you dont make salmence's analysis like crap

Choice Band. Eh. tbh i rly think cb is horrible on gyarados, its better off using dd because it has almost always a set-up oppurtunity but w/ intimidate it can be a bulky land-t idc wut u put ther gl!
 
#38
Waterfall in Rain has the same power as Outrage, except Salamence has a higher Atk stat. Also, Salamence higher speed means it out can outspeed more Scarfers/+1 Pokemon. The Confusion and Flinch rates you have a point with, but I wouldnt say either outclasses another.
 

elodin

formerly papai noel
is a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#39
Return is a great option on Offensive Dragon Dance as it hits everything Gyarados needs to hit for neutral damage. You can hit Rotom-W, Celebi, Dragon-types, and Keldeo (there are more stuff but I'm on the phone) even harder than Stone Edge / Earthquake can. Imo, it should get a slash or at least an AC mention.

Also Return is legal with Moxie and using Double-Ege with LO is suicidal at best, especially considering that Gyarados is weak to Stealth Rock and does not set up so easily.
 
#42
Maybe mention Eviolite Porygon2 in checks and counters? (especially if Gyara runs Intimidate) I know it's not a very common sight in the OU metagame, but it can counter Gyarados...
 
#43
How does Gastrodon counter Gyarados?

OU Tank:
4 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in rain: 60-72 (16.99 - 20.39%) -- possible 7HKO

Can't break Gyarados's subs.

Choice Specs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gastrodon Ice Beam vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 135-159 (38.24 - 45.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Somewhat stings, but I wouldn't really call it a counter...especially as Bounce maimes Gastrodon quite a bit.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#44
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Impish should be the main spread for RestTalk because Gyara needs all the bulk it can get to be a reliable physical wall. It says in the analysis that the extra special defense allows it to live Life Orb Landorus' Sheer Force Psychic after Stealth Rock, but Gyara can comfortably do that even with 248 HP and 8 Special Defense:

252+ SpA Modest Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gyarados: 166-196 (42.23 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Timid Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gyarados: 151-178 (38.42 - 45.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

alexwolf

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#45
Hemp Man nobody said that Gastro is a counter, but it is an ok check.

And yeah pls change the ev spread of the RestTalk set to the one that it always has been (248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD).

I will give this a closer look soon...
 
#46
it helps that the most common scarfed revenge killer, keldeo, can't even 2hko under rain without hp electric.
Just want to point out that it actually techincally can (44.1% - 52%) with Hydro Pump although that's basically something that will never happen. If anyone is wondering, yes that does mean Specs can OHKO offensive Gyara after SR (66.2% - 77.9%).
 
#47
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Impish should be the main spread for RestTalk because Gyara needs all the bulk it can get to be a reliable physical wall. It says in the analysis that the extra special defense allows it to live Life Orb Landorus' Sheer Force Psychic after Stealth Rock, but Gyara can comfortably do that even with 248 HP and 8 Special Defense:

252+ SpA Modest Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gyarados: 166-196 (42.23 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Timid Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gyarados: 151-178 (38.42 - 45.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I changed the spread on brii's request and since nobody objected to it at the time I thought everybody was OK with it, switching back now
 

doughboy

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#49
Has anyone considered a super-bulky DD set? That is one with 252 HP EV's. Considering how many potent threats that Gyarados can check like Mamoswine, RP Landorus, Volcarona, Keldeo, and Scizor I've really enjoyed the extra bulk on the DD set.
 

alexwolf

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#50
Mention Outrage and Bounce for the choiced sets in OO.

Also mention LO Starmie as a partner for CB Gyarados.



QC Approved 1/3

EDIT: Also remove mentions of non-resttalk gyarados (alrdy mentioned in the AC of RestTalk) and choice Gyarados from OO.
 

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