Pokémon Hawlucha

[kefkakrazy]

Has anyone actually thought of a sub set?
I mean, when using Hawlucha as a lead, you can easily encore, say, Stealth Rock, or you could drop a sub down, allowing you to either get an attack off or boost with SD.
What makes this strategy nice is that when Flying Gem is obtainable, it can get past (or at least weaken) certain obvious switch ins such as Tflame or ease prediction if the opponent has a ghost in play.
Any feedback on a strat like this would be greatly appreciated.

One other nice thing about a Sub set would be the ability to trigger Salac or Liechi Berry safely, but it would take some time to get to that point (since it'd take three subs to do). By the time you got down to 25% and were ready to sweep, you'd potentially be at like +4 Attack/+2 Speed, which is just about Blaziken sweep territory if the bird doesn't get splattered by priority.

Another useful one might be the Berry that reduces SE Flying damage... at least, that'd be useful if Talonflame's Brave Bird didn't 1HKO through it, which I believe it does.

 

[Always!]

One other nice thing about a Sub set would be the ability to trigger Salac or Liechi Berry safely, but it would take some time to get to that point (since it'd take three subs to do). By the time you got down to 25% and were ready to sweep, you'd potentially be at like +4 Attack/+2 Speed, which is just about Blaziken sweep territory if the bird doesn't get splattered by priority.

Another useful one might be the Berry that reduces SE Flying damage... at least, that'd be useful if Talonflame's Brave Bird didn't 1HKO through it, which I believe it does.

Honestly, I dislike that kind of set due to priority and stuff, so I mostly use subs for prediction, not getting an unburden boost, though that strat could work :D

 

[kefkakrazy]

Wasn't really recommending it as a primary strategy, just saying it could work.

You're right, though, there's way too much priority floating around for that set. A full-health Hawlucha can live through most other forms of priority (even Adamant CB Azumarill fails to OHKO with Aqua Jet and is in range to be OHKOd by +2 Acrobatics after rocks), but a Sub set relying on a booster berry would only survive as long as the sub held up.

Of course, if you could MANAGE that, a +4/+2 Hawlucha behind a sub would probably flatten half of a team before it went down, but that's still a gamble.

 

[branflakes]

I just played a good six matches in Pokebank OU and paid close attention to how many pokemon had strong priority moves on each team. Here are the trials:

Match 1: Talonflame Brave Bird
Match 2: Azumarill Belly Jet, Mixed Aegislash Shadow Sneak, Sash Mamoswine Ice Shard
Match 3: Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave, Coil Zygarde Extremespeed, Aegislash Shadow Sneak, Talonflame Brave Bird (banded i think)
Match 4: Talonflame Brave Bird, Banded Azumarill Aqua Jet
Match 5: Mega Lucario ESpeed, Banded Azumarill Aqua Jet
Match 6: Talonflame Brave Bird, Mega Medicham Bullet Punch, LO Lucario ESpeed

Surprisingly no mega kangas running around today lol

Anyways, there's overwhelmingly powerful priority everywhere. Hawlucha really doesn't stand a chance at KOing more than one pokemon with SD/Unburden until all of the priority is gone. With the omnipresence of Aegislash and Skarmory (esp with defog and rocky helmet for Kanga), even setting up is difficult. In other words, the required conditions are too strict for Hawlucha to pull off anything close to a sweep, especially considering that the opposing priority users are often meant to pull off their own late game sweep with said priority moves. Also, preserving Hawlucha's HP to maximize its survivability against priority attacks really hampers its potential as something more than a shaky late game sweeper. And it shouldn't need Spin/Defog support.

The set I posted may not be the best hit-and-run U-turn set imaginable (though its pretty effective), but I strongly believe that a U-turn or Encore/Baton Pass set is much more effective in the current and pokebank metagames.

 

[LeonEclipse]

Hey guys Im new to the site not to Pokemon. Excuse my typing Im not american so my grammar is not good. So yeah I have done like 3 6-0 wifi battles using hawlucha with the following set.

Item: focus sash
Nat: adamant
Ability: unburden
encore
Acrobatics
High jump kick
Sword dance

Using him as a lead most of the time use him as a lead, and easilly set up 2 sd an following to sweep.

 

[Always!]

Guys, I've 6-0'd many teams with this strategy.

Hawlucha @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
114HP/252 Atk/112 Spe
Swords Dance
High Jump Kick
Acrobatics
Substitute

Used as a lead, or whenever possible, set up a sub, SD when they break it and activate unburden through the Red Card and sweep. The EV's outrun Scarf Genesect and +1 Dugtrio after a boost. Feedback on what to do to improve it would be essential!

 

[kabbes]

Guys, I've 6-0'd many teams with this strategy.

Hawlucha @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
114HP/252 Atk/112 Spe
Swords Dance
High Jump Kick
Acrobatics
Substitute

Used as a lead, or whenever possible, set up a sub, SD when they break it and activate unburden through the Red Card and sweep. The EV's outrun Scarf Genesect and +1 Dugtrio after a boost. Feedback on what to do to improve it would be essential!

That's very similar to my set, except I use less speed investment and more defence, and encore instead of substitute.

Substitute strikes me as a dangerous game when you are relying on taking a hit to activate the red card. A lot of hits that set up the unburden/acrobat take way more than 50% of the HP. In quite a few cases, more than 75%, meaning that the substitute can't happen at all. And if you manage to get your substitute in first, you might not be able to take the red card hit at all when it gets broken.

Kefkakrazy and Branflakes325 are right though, all this falls apart when facing strong priority moves. It's no use being the fastest game in town if somebody else can pull a priority on you. I view Hawlucha as being a gamble lead. If the opposing team has not prepared for it, it can sweep through everything. And on a decent minority of occasions, it does. If they have one of its various counters, however, it'll do a bit of damage and then get KO'd.

Also, it's particularly strong in 3v3, I find. You can choose to run it or not run it based on team preview. And if opponents see it in your team preview, they are forced to run a counter, and many of its counters have significant weaknesses of their own.

 

[kefkakrazy]

I view Hawlucha as being a gamble lead. If the opposing team has not prepared for it, it can sweep through everything. And on a decent minority of occasions, it does. If they have one of its various counters, however, it'll do a bit of damage and then get KO'd.

I do like Hawlucha as an offensive lead, running the Encore set. I'm not sure how much broad success it'll have, but being able to Encore people trying to set up or drop hazards, U-Turn to scout the switch (if you Encore someone into a useless move, like rocks), or blow big gaping holes in things with Acro or HJK. That's a fair bit of versatility for an otherwise-pure-offensive 'mon.

 

[Always!]

That's very similar to my set, except I use less speed investment and more defence, and encore instead of substitute.

Substitute strikes me as a dangerous game when you are relying on taking a hit to activate the red card. A lot of hits that set up the unburden/acrobat take way more than 50% of the HP. In quite a few cases, more than 75%, meaning that the substitute can't happen at all. And if you manage to get your substitute in first, you might not be able to take the red card hit at all when it gets broken.

Kefkakrazy and Branflakes325 are right though, all this falls apart when facing strong priority moves. It's no use being the fastest game in town if somebody else can pull a priority on you. I view Hawlucha as being a gamble lead. If the opposing team has not prepared for it, it can sweep through everything. And on a decent minority of occasions, it does. If they have one of its various counters, however, it'll do a bit of damage and then get KO'd.

Also, it's particularly strong in 3v3, I find. You can choose to run it or not run it based on team preview. And if opponents see it in your team preview, they are forced to run a counter, and many of its counters have significant weaknesses of their own.

I completely understand that, but I do want you to understand that breaking a sub actually activates the Red Card, so by the time my sub is broken, it will be at +2 with unburden activated.

I do agree with you though, the thing is, Hawlucha is an underrated threat, so most teams will have priority, but by the time they can use it to KO, they have lost at least 2-3 members of the team.

The entire reason Substitute is used is to allow an easy Red Card activation, and you don't have to one man army it with Hawlucha, you do have teammates who can finish the job.

I'll do some calcs on the priority in the game, as I believe that TFlame is the only one who's priority can KO at 76%, and it loses if Hawlucha has a sub up.

 

[kefkakrazy]

I completely understand that, but I do want you to understand that breaking a sub actually activates the Red Card, so by the time my sub is broken, it will be at +2 with unburden activated.
I do agree with you though, the thing is, Hawlucha is an underrated threat, so most teams will have priority, but by the time they can use it to KO, they have lost at least 2-3 members of the team.
The entire reason Substitute is used is to allow an easy Red Card activation, and you don't have to one man army it with Hawlucha, you do have teammates who can finish the job.
I'll do some calcs on the priority in the game, as I believe that TFlame is the only one who's priority can KO at 76%, and it loses if Hawlucha has a sub up.

Banded Azu comes close, but nobody else can 1HKO at 76% without a boost. Talonflame can only do it because priority on Brave Bird is a hell of a thing.

I didn't know that Red Card functioned behind a sub. However, while I'm pretty sleepy today, I'm still not getting it; how do you get to +2 in that scenario if the opponent can break the sub in one hit, which is fairly likely?

Hawlucha subs
Opponent attacks (sub broken) Red Card triggers, ejecting opponent and dragging out another 'mon
Hawlucha is now at +1 Speed with Acro and Unburden active, but has not had a chance to SD and is no longer behind a sub. The only chance you have to SD is if the first hit fails to break the sub or if the opponent dragged out by the Red Card is one that absolutely cannot stay in against a Hawlucha.

 

[Always!]

Banded Azu comes close, but nobody else can 1HKO at 76% without a boost. Talonflame can only do it because priority on Brave Bird is a hell of a thing.

I didn't know that Red Card functioned behind a sub. However, while I'm pretty sleepy today, I'm still not getting it; how do you get to +2 in that scenario if the opponent can break the sub in one hit, which is fairly likely?

Hawlucha subs
Opponent attacks (sub broken) Red Card triggers, ejecting opponent and dragging out another 'mon
Hawlucha is now at +1 Speed with Acro and Unburden active, but has not had a chance to SD and is no longer behind a sub. The only chance you have to SD is if the first hit fails to break the sub or if the opponent dragged out by the Red Card is one that absolutely cannot stay in against a Hawlucha.

The point of this is actually to sub on the opponents lead, which will almost always prioritize Sneaky Pebbles. You then SD as they break your sub and then proceed to sweep. I am not saying this set is perfect, I am simply saying that it has potential (like all of yours :D). Also, what HP EVs did you run with on the calc?

 

[lucariokid]

Any other items to make use of unburden? I can't seem to get my hands on a flying gem 6th gen..

 

[Always!]

Any other items to make use of unburden? I can't seem to get my hands on a flying gem 6th gen..

Red Card, Lum Berry, or Focus Sash are generally the best options, however not all of them are 100% foolproof.....

 

[kefkakrazy]

Any other items to make use of unburden? I can't seem to get my hands on a flying gem 6th gen..

Power Herb works too, if you sacrifice a moveslot for Sky Attack.

I would say that you could run one of the defensive Berries, but your biggest single threat (Talonflame Brave Bird) still 1HKOs through the berry that reduces SE flying damage.

 

[Cheatingtaco]

Any other items to make use of unburden? I can't seem to get my hands on a flying gem 6th gen..

I would say focus sash is the way to go. Boost on the first turn then actrobatics your way to victory. I believe he gets bulk up so bulk up on the first turn then once you get +1 atk def spe use acrobatics. It's not foolproof but it seems like a legit strategy.

 

[kefkakrazy]

I would say focus sash is the way to go. Boost on the first turn then actrobatics your way to victory. I believe he gets bulk up so bulk up on the first turn then once you get +1 atk def spe use acrobatics. It's not foolproof but it seems like a legit strategy.

Why would you use bulk up with a sash? The defense boost isn't going to do you a bit of good if you get attacked by so much as a level 1 Rattata with Quick Attack; use SD instead.

 

[Cheatingtaco]

Why would you use bulk up with a sash? The defense boost isn't going to do you a bit of good if you get attacked by so much as a level 1 Rattata with Quick Attack; use SD instead.

Oh yeah duhh. I forgot about swords dance *facepalm*

 

[kefkakrazy]

Oh yeah duhh. I forgot about swords dance *facepalm*

Heh, happens to us all.

Honestly, even on a non-sub set, Hawlucha is kinda not bulky enough to make decent use of Bulk Up. You'd have to run Bulk Up/Roost/Acro/HJK, and while that set could possibly beat Talonflame if it was boosted and healthy when TF came in, it would wind up walled by Aegislash, which is also super common, and outright destroyed by special aegislash or extremely fast special attackers. Conk gets away with it because Conk can just Bulk Up then smash his big red nose on Drain Punch until he runs out of things to punch or has to switch to Stone Edge to smash a ghost.

The only boosting move I'd actually consider on Hawlucha besides SD, at all, is Hone Claws for the boost to accuracy for nonmissing HJKs. That's still subpar compared to a second stage of attack boost from SD, though, considering Hawlucha isn't typically in battle for the long haul and is more interested in hitting fast and hitting hard, then either jumping out or going down fighting like a bawss.

 

[Caliber Champ]

Listen...
I have beaten multiple aegislash, and talonflames with hawlucha using the red card with sub. Its the 2nd best option other than flying gem. You only want to switch hawlucha in on an earthquake or if some one is setting up with spikes. It works best as a mid to late game revenge killer. Too early and you have too many priority users or threats.
I use the same set as epic bro but I go with 252 speed, +252 atk, 4 HP. Adamant nature.
I've swept many teams with this thing. The only teams that stand a chance are the ones that have 3 priority users or more on the team. I hope you guys learned something cause from reading these posts most of you are clueless.

 

[Mayor of Earth]

I've been running:
Adamant Unburden Hawlucha power Herb 252 speed 252 attack 4 hp
Swords Dance / Sky Attack / Acrobatics / Hi Jump Kick.
It seems kind of dumb, but it procs the Unburden boost with even higher base power than itemless Acrobatics. Fight/Fly already has solid coverage, and Hawlucha's options for non-STAB are already pretty underwhelming. You basically have to make sure enemy Aegislash or Talonflame is down first (priority brave bird wrecks lucha), but beyond that he's basically free to tear stuff up. Sky Attack hits hard and carries flinch chance; the flinch isn't something to rely on but it's like scoring a random crit in that it can basically be a free win.

edit: somehow I managed not to read the bottom half of this page, didn't even think of sub. Would be a really good idea on switch because of how many powerful priority users wreck hawlucha.

 

[branflakes]

Listen...
I have beaten multiple aegislash, and talonflames with hawlucha using the red card with sub. Its the 2nd best option other than flying gem. You only want to switch hawlucha in on an earthquake or if some one is setting up with spikes. It works best as a mid to late game revenge killer. Too early and you have too many priority users or threats.
I use the same set as epic bro but I go with 252 speed, +252 atk, 4 HP. Adamant nature.
I've swept many teams with this thing. The only teams that stand a chance are the ones that have 3 priority users or more on the team. I hope you guys learned something cause from reading these posts most of you are clueless.

I suppose I am clueless because I don't know how this set is supposed to beat aegislash.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Listen...
I have beaten multiple aegislash, and talonflames with hawlucha using the red card with sub. Its the 2nd best option other than flying gem. You only want to switch hawlucha in on an earthquake or if some one is setting up with spikes. It works best as a mid to late game revenge killer. Too early and you have too many priority users or threats.
I use the same set as epic bro but I go with 252 speed, +252 atk, 4 HP. Adamant nature.
I've swept many teams with this thing. The only teams that stand a chance are the ones that have 3 priority users or more on the team. I hope you guys learned something cause from reading these posts most of you are clueless.

I suppose I am clueless because I don't know how this set is supposed to beat aegislash.

I suppose I'm in the "S.S. Clueless" too, because the set's concept is horrible on paper, and the reasoning behind it including "oh this thing is good and it sweeps but I'm not gonna go in-depth" and "you are all dumb/clueless" is also pretty horrible and personally grating.

In other words, if you want a voice and want to prove Hawlucha has uses, propose your sets in a way that's professional, and stop berating others so needlessly.

 

[Always!]

I suppose I'm in the "S.S. Clueless" too, because the set's concept is horrible on paper, and the reasoning behind it including "oh this thing is good and it sweeps but I'm not gonna go in-depth" and "you are all dumb/clueless" is also pretty horrible and personally grating.

In other words, if you want a voice and want to prove Hawlucha has uses, propose your sets in a way that's professional, and stop berating others so needlessly.

All right then, I'll do it.

The sets main attraction is that it can 6-0 teams who do not have a proper counter to it, and in Hawlucha's case it doesn't have too many, another plus is that it can beat its main counter Talonflame if it has a sub up. Even then, i still don't recommend this set to be used if they have Talonflame, Aegislash, or any other solid check/counter. Its main attraction is that is sets up on leads better than the standard Encore set, and gives you the ability to always activate the Red Card. This is amazing in itself, as against the standard lead, it will always get off an SD, and proceed to wreck an unprepared opponents team, as it can't be out-sped and most un-boosted priority can't KO at 76%.

^Is this what you mean AccidentalGreed?

 

[branflakes]

I see how the set is effective, and I think it's smart that you acknowledged that the set usually doesn't break through Hawlucha's counters except for that particular circumstance with Talonflame. I don't doubt that it's an effective set that gives Hawlucha a good opportunity to sweep and make good use of Unburden. Hawlucha's biggest problem is that is has no way around its numerous counters - the solution is to give it a teammate that can do that for him.

Caliber Champ on the other hand is wrong. There is no way for Hawlucha to reliably beat Aegislash, and OU is so full of priority (as highlighted in one of my previous posts) when you face higher-level players. You might think differently if your rank is low and you end up facing only low-level players.

+6 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Switch in Aegislash on Sub
-Shadow Ball to break the sub and get switched out by Red Card on a Swords Dance
-Switch Aegislash back in on a Sub
-Shadow Ball the sub on a Swords Dance
-Kings Shield on a Swords Dance
-Tank the +6 Acrobatics and KO with Shadow Ball

Alternatively....
-Kings Shield on a Sub
-Break the Sub on a Swords Dance or tank a +4 Acrobatics
-KO with Shadow Sneak.

Hawlucha loses, period.

 

[kabbes]

I switched from encore to sub, but red card does NOT seem to work through the sub. The opponent broke the sub but the red card did not activate.

Any ideas what's going on?