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Haxorus

The thing is you won't get a +1 dragon dance vs Erufuun.

You switch in Ono expecting a switch, they switch out and you DD. Their switch in is Erufuun and before you can do anything next turn they Encore you meaning you can't attack them. That's game.

So you must predict their switch to erufuun and hit them without DDing or their defenses don't matter.
 
Oh right, forgot about encore. Well in that case it'll just have to be dealt with in a different matter. Regardless of that fact though, no one is going to want to setup if they know erufuun is on the team. Not a single setup sweeper wants to get trapped by that thing. So as said before, then choice sets would be fine with it. Or better yet, keep your setup sweeper in anyway, and blow it away with outrage which still does 68.5-80.9% to it with out dragon dance and 100 atk EV's (and it has no defense EV's).

Hell! With the percents I just put up makes erufuun unreliable regardless since I'll just have to blast it's ass. Still comes down to prediction, but im sure if you've seen it before, and they aren't very smart and get baited into bringing in Erufuun, well, that would be game for it. Not to mention if SR is up, all those switch-in's will hurt it a good bit.
 
AxelLow said:
Oh right, forgot about encore. Well in that case it'll just have to be dealt with in a different matter. Regardless of that fact though, no one is going to want to setup if they know erufuun is on the team. Not a single setup sweeper wants to get trapped by that thing. So as said before, then choice sets would be fine with it. Or better yet, keep your setup sweeper in anyway, and blow it away with outrage which still does 68.5-80.9% to it with out dragon dance and 100 atk EV's (and it has no defense EV's).

Hell! With the percents I just put up makes erufuun unreliable regardless since I'll just have to blast it's ass. Still comes down to prediction, but im sure if you've seen it before, and they aren't very smart and get baited into bringing in Erufuun, well, that would be game for it. Not to mention if SR is up, all those switch-in's will hurt it a good bit.
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Since you can see all of your opponent's Pokemon before the battle starts, prediction shouldn't be too much of a problem. You could Outrage, Taunt, or Dragon Tail (depending on which move your Ono is running in its forth slot) as they switch Erufuun in. Either way it's not looking too good for your opponent.
 
Meschievious heart erufuun is able to switch in (after another poke faints) and stun spore this thing, to stop its sweeping madness. It can also leechseed and start sub seeding it to oblivion. Erufuun also has cotton guard which is +3 defense!

But other than that theres not much that can stop this monster
 
Erufuun also has stun spore and sleep powder to cripple it. Choice scarf ditto might be able to turn this right around and sweep itself.
 
The arguments about Erufuun stopping it's set up or paralyzing with Stun Spore apply to any other Pokemon, it's nothing especially detrimental to Ono. Same with Scarf Ditto revenging you. If you know your opponent has Erufuun or Ditto, if you're smart you're going to be cautious with you're set up sweepers and catch a overconfident erufuun switching in with a strong attack and crush it's pathetic defenses.
 
@Frost Nocturne: You're right. Because of Ono's massive attack, it can blow past tricky checks like Erufuun. Ditto is still a problem, but the same can be said of any setup sweeper, and many sweepers that don't setup. Ono's huge attack means it doesn't necessarily need to setup to deal good damage, so it can "scout" for these threats before actually sweeping. It can also Taunt the switch-in, so if you know your opponent has an Erufuun, you can catch it trying to switch in and render it useless.
 
Alright so I've finally gone out and started looking more into SD sets (while I have other DD sets I'd post, most of them are somewhat personal, and kind of feel like being selfish about them). If anything, I was never much of a SD user even though I saw how outstanding the perks to having can be. So to say the least, im much more naive to the SD sets then most people. I'd love any, and all advice on maximizing SD sets if at all possible with Ono.

My proposed set:

Ononokusu @ Specific Berry/ Life Orb (?)
Adamant Nature
EV's: 158 HP/ 138 Atk/ 134 Def/ 80 Spe
-Swords Dance
-EQ
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Brick Break/Taunt

So yea, I've gone, and tried to cook up a bulky SD set. Mind you, the set still has 400 Atk which rounds up to 800 after a SD, which is still more then many other SD'ers might be able to say for (bar Ray, etc). The Bulk EV's are placed in a similar fashion to how some of my bulky DD sets work around, so it can function better when taking hits. I feel like the set can do well with, or without Life Orb, in the case of Life Orb the spread might be different.

This set can get some very scary K.O.'s on note worthy walls, like Natto, who takes 78.4-92.6% from a Brick Break (the Natto set I used is placed in the Level 100 Analysis contributions). Physically defensive skarmory takes big chunks from either Outrage, or Brick Break, and Hippo doesn't like either EQ or Outrage (with EQ dealing 42.2-47.4%, and Outrage dealing a whopping 72.1-85%). Hippo doesn't like Dragon Claw either, which can reliably 2HKO when coupled with Taunt. Even in the Ubers department, This set can OHKO Great Wall Tina with Outrage (and outspeed it), and always K.O Lugia with SR, or Life Orb. Blissey wont like a single hit, and will usually die after a hit from any attack after a SD, while Crocune wont like being Outraged on, or hit with a Dragon Claw. Wobbuffet wont like it either, and will be K.O'ed by Outrage if SR is on the field.

Probably missing a few other things, but damn this set seriously shows it's wallbreaking powers to me. I was never more inclined to use SD before, but Ono just might change my mind in this case.

Also, just a quick tidbit as far as partners for Ono goes. So far, I've been running my DD Ono with various partners, but the one that has shined the most for me is the same pokemon that every Ono (bar rivalry sets) can destroy: Bronzong. I can't stress how utterly USEFUL screen support from bronzong is for Ono. IMO, Bronzong saw Mold Breaker, and was like, "Fuck that shiz! I'd rather be your friend more then anything!" And it seriously has been a great partner. My Ono survives SOO much more things, and comes in MUCH earlier then before, making those checks strong hitting moves become messely 10 to 20% bits of my health.
 
Whaaatt? cummon guys, Sazando OHKOs this guy with no set up and no hold item and it outspeeds it. This guys is pretty frail. All this "it has no counters" business is Completely dependant on getting a free turn to set up. Which might not be that easy, especially with some of the new pokes. I mean even Furiijio OHKOs this guy. Plus, Virtually any scarfer rapes this guy on Revenge, that much every agrees on. This pokemon is getting overhyped pretty badly.
 
TickTakashi said:
Whaaatt? cummon guys, Sazando OHKOs this guy with no set up and no hold item and it outspeeds it. This guys is pretty frail. All this "it has no counters" business is Completely dependant on getting a free turn to set up. Which might not be that easy, especially with some of the new pokes. I mean even Furiijio OHKOs this guy. Plus, Virtually any scarfer rapes this guy on Revenge, that much every agrees on. This pokemon is getting overhyped pretty badly.
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Er... Sazando doesn't want to come in on Outrage or Claw much, and DD makes it necessary to run Scarf on it. That's not a hard counter. A hard counter is something that checks every common variant of a pokemon without revenging.

Most pokemon have revenge checks - if Eccentric Ditto is introduced, all pokemon short of scarfers will. But those are soft checks.

I'm not saying this thing has no hard counters, btw. I don't even know much about it, but I just felt like pointing out the difference between Sazando and scarfers/revengers and real checks.
 
TickTakashi said:
Whaaatt? cummon guys, Sazando OHKOs this guy with no set up and no hold item and it outspeeds it. This guys is pretty frail. All this "it has no counters" business is Completely dependant on getting a free turn to set up. Which might not be that easy, especially with some of the new pokes. I mean even Furiijio OHKOs this guy. Plus, Virtually any scarfer rapes this guy on Revenge, that much every agrees on. This pokemon is getting overhyped pretty badly.
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You don't have any clue as to what your talking about do you?

First of all, any of the Bulky sets that have been talked over for the past few pages, which also carry Haban Berry most of the time, can take a hit from Sazandora if it isn't holding an item. With that said, Ono only needs 170 HP EV's to survive a Dragon Pulse, Outrage, or any other move from it other then Draco Meteor (which I hope to god your using it on Sazandora, because otherwise your missing out on too much damage), and that's without life orb. With life-orb, the only move that STILL K.O's Ono is Draco Meteor. Mind you, this is also without stealth rocks, and with it, you should be able to net a K.O with Dragon Pulse as well. But in that same aspect, your hitting on it's weaker special defense side, so it's obvious that it'll hurt regardless.

Secondly, even when holding life-orb, it loses the ability to revenge Ono that the scarf sets have the ability to do. Setting up is just as easy as it's always been, regardless of the new pokes. You would know this if you've played gen 5(or had a general understanding of how most battles play out). Without hard evidence that "any" scarfer revenges Ono shows your lack of knowledge even more. Several of the scarfers sets wont be doing any revenging of a Bulky Ono if they aren't either Scizor, Latias, Sazandora, Mence, Flygon, and a few others that I dont feel like mentioning. Back to the fact of setting up, getting +2 with Ono is, suprisingly, not difficult. It's even easier to get those boosts when you play your cards right. With just 80 spe EV's, and an Adamant Nature, Ono hits 500 after +2 DD's, outspeeding most of it's checks.

With that same note, you mentioned it being "over-hyped", yet, I can't help but think that your sadly miss-informed. No one is overhyping this thing as of now, as you say it be. Hopefully you understand the definition of what hype is, and will be able to differentiate it between those that are actually trying to make something of it by placing their time in to sets, and research, compared to some of the other miss-informed viewers that refuse to read through threads.
 
TickTakashi said:
Whaaatt? cummon guys, Sazando OHKOs this guy with no set up and no hold item and it outspeeds it. This guys is pretty frail. All this "it has no counters" business is Completely dependant on getting a free turn to set up. Which might not be that easy, especially with some of the new pokes. I mean even Furiijio OHKOs this guy. Plus, Virtually any scarfer rapes this guy on Revenge, that much every agrees on. This pokemon is getting overhyped pretty badly.
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Last I checked, Sazandora doesn't have any speed boosting moves, and after 2 dd's, flygon is dead, much like his fellow revenge killers. And overhyped? no. It has a perfectly good excuse to have as much hype as it needs. I would beleive AxelLow because he either a. played gen 5, or b. figured out gen 5.
 
AxelLow is correct. I make this post after seeing three above it responding to the same topic because the point needs to be made that Sazando is not a counter. And as Granstafer explained, after 2 DDs it outspeeds any Scarfer anyway. Ono is also bulky enough to take many of the common priority moves for less than 50%, but for Scizor's Bullet Punch. The point is that Ono can actually get around its counters; it's harder to stop than you might think.
 
How Ono is getting 2 DDs is beyond me. I could rant about how everything hits harder, faster, etc, but we've heard it over and over again.

Like most setup sweepers, Ono will be able to set up maybe once. Ono isn't quite that bulky, and won't like taking any sort of it from the more decently powered walls, and is often lured into Outrage to KO the opposition before being KOd itself. At best we can expect either +2 Attack, or +1 Attack/+1 Speed.
 
I should probably make of list of notable checks prior to +1, and +2 DD's just for easy reference. Might use the new speed tiers to help figure that out a bit more.

@Icy- Like I said before, when you play him correctly, getting up to 2 DD's is not difficult. For the most part, your not going to be playing him any earlier then Mid-Late game in which only 3 or 2 pokes are left on your opponents team. 9 times out of 10, you can setup on atleast one of them, and take minimal damage from the others. That's usually how Ono will get it's +2. It's not meant to start it's sweep any earlier. With Screen support, you have a chance to come in earlier since your defenses will be covered. It has enough bulk to where you can invest just enough to have it survive much longer, allowing for even more chances to get atleast one DD off. I'd also like to mention that I've opted to not use taunt sometimes, and instead replace it for Dragon Claw, even if it does stop some setups.
 
I was wondering, does Choice Scarf genosect counter this thing? Download boosts Genosect's SpA by 1 stage, and since most Ono carry Haban instead of Yache Ice Beam should OHKO.
 
Yes Misa. Genosect is a royal pain in the ass, especially with the download boost. Unless it's not carrying Yache Berry, it'll more then likely K.O with Ice Beam. Im not sure on the damage charts, but I can probably calc it up real quick. Although, just from my experience, I prefer not to have Ono out while Geno is on the field since even it's other moves hurt like hell.
 
AxelLow said:
I should probably make of list of notable checks prior to +1, and +2 DD's just for easy reference. Might use the new speed tiers to help figure that out a bit more.

@Icy- Like I said before, when you play him correctly, getting up to 2 DD's is not difficult. For the most part, your not going to be playing him any earlier then Mid-Late game when only 3 or 2 pokes are left on your opponents team. 9 times out of 10, you can setup on atleast one of them, and take minimal damage from the others. That's usually how Ono will get it's +2. It's not meant to start it's sweep any earlier. With Screen support, you have a chance to come in earlier since your defenses will be covered. It has enough bulk to where you can invest just enough to have it survive much longer, allowing for even more chances to get atleast one DD off. I'd also like to mention that I've opted to not use taunt sometimes, and instead replace it for Dragon Claw, even if it does stop some setups.
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the thing is when you say "playig it correctly" with screen support and what not, it means it's not as easy to setup multiple times as some can. It simply means it is relatively more difficult to setup multiple times than others. If you look at things like dragonite or arceus in Ubers, both are bulky enough to setup multiple times WITHOUT much support. Heck, they don't exactly need screen support to go bulky and setup more than once (dragonite with DW ability should help its bulky even more). flygon is overall more bulky (not even going to mention its typing and what not) and the thing dies...well it's pretty frail. The thing is I do, in fact, like onono but I don't try to play him as a bulky sweeper but a late-game/frail sweeper that hits...incredibly hard.
 
the thing is, if you play him correctly, i.e. stick to the late-game sweeping instead of coming out while other pokes can either do note worthy damage to him, then my explanation doesn't suggest that it's difficult in anyway. In fact, late-game sweeping is alot easier, and I mentioned screen support because it can help him come out earlier then that. He can function just fine without screen support, stay bulky enough to take the hits, and clean up the remaining team. Dragonite is a MUCH different case, and isn't exactly a good comparison to him seeing as how it is much more bulky in comparison, and has a massive movepool that Ono can't even compare to.
 
dragonite is not a different case since we aren't talking about what outclasses what but simply what can go bulky to setup multiple times, which dragonite really shines in. I'm not too sure what you are talking about in the later part of the last sentence by the way (not sure why we are talking about movepool and stuff when we are just talking about bulk...though if we can...I'd like to talk about how dragonite has things like heal bell/roost/screens/etc to be a better bulky sweeper as you mentioned about nite having larger movepool).

All in all, I don't see onono as a bulky pokemon. In fact, I would consider him rather frail. When I use him, I use him as a standard frail, lg sweeper, come in late and DD once (I don't like his SD set) to sweep. I simply just don't try to use him as a bulky mon like dragonite and such.
 
What I mean Kira is that bulky sets work, and quite well actually, in comparison to the min/max sets. You can run the min/max sets just fine, but the bulky sets can usually accomplish the same thing, but survive more hits, and hit just as hard.

What I meant by Dragonite was that when comparing to being more bulky then Ono, it's obvious outsides its stats. This is the reason why I mentioned its movepool because in a situation where Dragonite could indeed end up gaining more DD's then Ono, it would be even more possible with the likes of Roost and such, yet Ono doesn't have access to such things. Which is why it makes it a different case since it can come in on a much larger source of pokemon usually do to it's superior bulk, and moves that can help keep it going.

With that said, the "Bulk" is not the same as other bulky sweepers who can usually recover themselves in some sort of way. Ono's Bulk is more like a buffer to help it absorb more hits. The reason this works is by not having to invest in speed since even with max speed and Jolly nature, you wont be outspeeding any of your prominate counters. With less speed EV"s, you add to its bulk, thus, making a Bulkier Ono by using its average bulk to keep it from dying off in 1 or 2 hits.
 
So you were saying Onono's "bulky" set is outclassed by Dragonite's bulkyNite set? If it's outclassed by another, why would one use it in a competitive environment? I know how bulky sets work so that's fine. however, I still don't see how onono's 76/90/70 defenses are bulky at all, when we consider flygon pretty frail.

edit: (to below) the point is
ononokusu isn't bulky
 
Im not saying it's outclassed by Dragonite's Bulky set because of the difference in the actual bulk.

Basically, your adding HP, and Defense EV's, not worrying about his Sp.Def stat since it wont save him from anything special. With this, you can stop the more physical checks, and especially those with priority from utterly destroying Ono. 76/90/70 aren't bulky in retrospec, but are "average", meaning that it compared to other sweepers who can be alot frailer, he can atleast take a hit better. From there, you look at the other stats, in which you still need a good amount of Atk, and not so much speed (minimum speed EV's can be 80 since your main goal with Ono is to reach that +2 Marker so you can outspeed your problems).

So essentially, your not making a "Bulky" sweeper, but a more reliable one that is not as frail. If your looking for a true bulky sweeper, then there are other pokemon, like Nite, that fit that better because of better defensive stating, and access to some sort of recovery.

But yes Kira, the point is, Ono isn't "bulky", but by investing in bulk, i.e. his HP, and Defense, you make for a much "bulkier" Ono that can take a hit, and still do the same thing that the other sets do (and in some cases better).
 
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