Haxorus

[M BLADE]

Well, no amount of EVs allow Dragonite to take Rock or Ice moves better than Ononokusu (assuming no Multi Scale), so there's that.

All the other typing moves says otherwise.

Look: on the Urugamosu thread, i tried to convince someone to test a bulky one with Butterfly Dance. Got nothing but negative replies (say that Uruga's physical defense rating is almost the same as Onono's special one) .
Of course, typing is another matter...

 

[lordkira]

Im not saying it's outclassed by Dragonite's Bulky set because of the difference in the actual bulk.

Basically, your adding HP, and Defense EV's, not worrying about his Sp.Def stat since it wont save him from anything special. With this, you can stop the more physical checks, and especially those with priority from utterly destroying Ono. 76/90/70 aren't bulky in retrospec, but are "average", meaning that it compared to other sweepers who can be alot frailer, he can atleast take a hit better. From there, you look at the other stats, in which you still need a good amount of Atk, and not so much speed (minimum speed EV's can be 80 since your main goal with Ono is to reach that +2 Marker so you can outspeed your problems).

So essentially, your not making a "Bulky" sweeper, but a more reliable one that is not as frail. If your looking for a true bulky sweeper, then there are other pokemon, like Nite, that fit that better because of better defensive stating, and access to some sort of recovery.

But yes Kira, the point is, Ono isn't "bulky", but by investing in bulk, i.e. his HP, and Defense, you make for a much "bulkier" Ono that can take a hit, and still do the same thing that the other sets do (and in some cases better).

dragonite for example doesn't even need to invest in bulky and he's still bulky and with minimal investmanga, dragonite will be bulkier than onono can ever be. that's the whole point. that's the reason why many didn't use offensive ddnite when mence wasn't banned, because while dragonite can go offensive, it was simply outclassed by mence in general.

 

[Frost Nocturne]

dragonite for example doesn't even need to invest in bulky and he's still bulky and with minimal investmanga, dragonite will be bulkier than onono can ever be. that's the whole point. that's the reason why many didn't use offensive ddnite when mence wasn't banned, because while dragonite can go offensive, it was simply outclassed by mence in general.

I think AxelLow said it best when he explained the defensive ev's as a "buffer." Personally, I would always max out Ono's attack, since it's his greatest advantage, then give him 80 spd evs and the rest into Hp. The defensive investment simply helps Ono set up on defensive Pokes, survive dragon/ice attacks from powerful revenge killers with the appropriate berry, and better take priority with his nice defense. As mentioned, Dragonite, despite being bulkier, has an exploitable 4x weakness along with an additional rock/stealth rock weakness, and distinguishes himself apart from Ono with roost as well.

 

[lordkira]

I think AxelLow said it best when he explained the defensive ev's as a "buffer." Personally, I would always max out Ono's attack, since it's his greatest advantage, then give him 80 spd evs and the rest into Hp. The defensive investment simply helps Ono set up on defensive Pokes, survive dragon/ice attacks from powerful revenge killers with the appropriate berry, and better take priority with his nice defense. As mentioned, Dragonite, despite being bulkier, has an exploitable 4x weakness along with an additional rock/stealth rock weakness, and distinguishes himself apart from Ono with roost as well.

that can be said about any pokemon.
also, you just pretty much definied bulky sweeper in your sentence, which is what I've been talking about the whole time. dragonite can do bulky sweeping set better, it's just like that. ononokusu sure you can give him SOME defensive evs but only after you spend enough in atk and spe (to outrun certain...no as many threats as possible that is necessary). also, dragonite has 4x weaknesses as well as the sr weakness but it still runs defensive sets better than ono as he has defensive abilities, defensive moves that onono does not such as roost/light screen/heal bell. It's true that dragonite and onono aren't completely the same. however, dragonite's bulky set would in general outclass onono's bulky set (also dragonite was just an example to show how bulky/bulky sweeper mons should be but one COULD compare the two if we simply talk about bulky dd sets I'm sure).

edit: anyways I'm going to stop talking about this matter since I feel like we're just going in a circle over and over again.

 

[AxelLow]

It is pretty much just a recurring cycle that wont get anywhere, since the loop holes are either covered by another loop-hole.

In actuality, any pokemon can be bulky, it's just that some do it better then others. In the same outcome, you wouldn't use Ono in the same situations as you would Dragonite, vice versa, you wouldn't use Dragonite in the same situations as Ono (this is including typing, weaknesses, stats, movesets, etc). For that matter, Ono works great with defensive investments, and doesn't change it's role as a late-game sweeper. Instead, it simply Amplifies it's power.

 

[SJCrew]

Dragonite is weak to SR, Rock moves in general, is slower, and takes Ice attacks like a bitch. That should be the end of the comparison right there.

But if you want me to keep going, let's mention the higher attack power, Taunt, and SD, three incredibly important factors that put Ono in an entirely different league from Dnite. He isn't outclassed by shit.

 

[soul_survivor]

ono out classes dragonite on every aspect in terms of weaknesses (meaning he doesn't take much damage), damage caculation,and an even powerfuller outrage. just dragonite has higher hp and def.

 

[SJCrew]

Fire Blast and Superpower are pretty important too, but he has to pay for it with his weaknesses and lack of speed, which made him pretty difficult to use even in Gen 4, tbh.

 

[lordkira]

nobody talked about dragonite or onono completely outclassing one another
we were specifically talking about bulky dd set for the two if you read it carefully
sure onono may/probably will be used more than nite in this gen as I would use it over nite in many cases (simply because i'd run an offensive setup mon on most of my teams this gen and onono has high attack and much greater/superior speed). however, that doesn't change the fact that nite will pull off bulky dd set far better with its superior defensive mechanism.

changing the topic, i've noticed many are preferring mence over onono for the offensive dd set and chomp over onono for the sd set for the dragons. i was going to say that taunt actually comes in quite handy, which is something none of those dragons have.

 

[AxelLow]

It wont be a matter of preference, but a matter of opinion, and what you need specifically on your team. If you dont need a x4 weakness to Ice Dragon who can setup, then you'll probably look towards Ono. If you need a DD'er that has a good amount of speed, atk, etc., and doesn't have an SR weakness, then they'll probably look towards Ono. In an opinionated situation, this can be much more heavily based, so either way, the Dragons will see use without having to bump heads by either having one or the other on a team, and possibly double dragon.

Ono DD sets are much different from DDMence Sets, as both accomplish a goal in their own particular manner, and must be played differently in a battling comparison. SD Ono sets have some serious perks to wallbreaking that can give it an upper-hand over chomp, especially with the set I posted last page hitting even some the Uber walls for Huge amounts of damage. It's a matter of taking into account what you'll be accomplishing with either one, and once again, their strengths and weaknesses.

In a realistic point of view, from all the time I've been playing wifi since release with several other competitive players with in my local tourney scene, it's all been a mix of various combinations. Same could be said when I played alittle bit on PO, in which Salamence was extremely rare. Chomp saw more action scarfed then SD, and most players that tried Ono either played it like Mence or something, which resulted in horrible outcomes.

With that said, you can't forget about Mence's other sets either. Mence may not even DD as much this Gen since his Mixed set is looking hella strong as ever. Someone may still need to find a DD'er/late-game DD clean up, and Ono will probably be a likely candidate. IMO, most of my teams are already done, with my Mence team as my main, and my Onono team as my secondary team. Salamence has actually fit right alongside my Ono in it's premier team, so once again, neither will really have to compete for a spot. During some of my play on PO, I used the OnoChomp combo that worked out just as well.

Major thing about Ono is that it's jealous, per say. If your planning to use two setup sweepers, with Ono being atleast one of them, he probably wont do as well unless he's placed under his SD wallbreaking sets. Running DD sets means that you'll need a little dedication to it, even if that means one or two pokemon, which isn't bad since you still have 3 left that can be whatever. Choiced sets work fine, with CB hitting really freaking hard, and massive dents within other teams.

tl;dr: if you need a Mence, get a Mence. If you need a Chomp, get a Chomp. If you need a Onono, get a Onono. So on and so on, but regardless it'll come down to opinions, and specifics on teams.

 

[IcyMan28]

Why Dragonite and Onono are being so mercilessly compared is confusing to me.

Fighting and Ground resists at the cost of Electric neutrality, rock weakness, and an additional Ice Weakness change things, for one, as well as the abilities. Dragonite's ample support movepool and access to Roost (in addition to its higher SpD) means that with a sample set of Light Screen / Roost / DD / Dragon Claw, Nite is setting up in the face of bulky waters with impunity while Ono is struggling.

Meanwhile, Ono's higher speed and considerably higher attack (as well as Taunt and SD) allow it to function as an extremely hard hitter right off the bat. The Jolly CB set for example does (35.16% - 41.48%) to 252/0 Neutral Metagross using Outrage, one of the bulkiest steels around with some offensive presence. Any sweeper that appreciates steels gone (such as Dark- and fellow Dragon-types) will appreciate Metagross' loss of 70% of its HP, minimum.

 

[haunter]

the problem with that bukly DNite set is that it requires many turns of set-up and is completely walled by Skarmory and Bronzong. Not to mention that many bulky waters, namely Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon carry roar and will take little damage from a +1 DClaw (especially if DNite has no Atk investment). Ono has taunt to stop these Pokemon and anyway none of them will be able to take a +2 outrage or EQ (even Skarmory risks a 2hko).

 

[blasphemy1]

Dragonite is weak to SR, Rock moves in general, is slower, and takes Ice attacks like a bitch. That should be the end of the comparison right there.

But if you want me to keep going, let's mention the higher attack power, Taunt, and SD, three incredibly important factors that put Ono in an entirely different league from Dnite. He isn't outclassed by shit.

To be fair, Dragonite has Roost and eventually access to Multi Scale. Also, if Ononokusu had Fire Punch, he wouldn't even think of running a defensive spread, would he?

But yeah, it's pretty pointless to compare the two. Dragonite utilizes its good bulk to accumulate multiple Dragon Dances, alternating between Roost and DD. Ono on the other hand, utilizes a defensive spread to beat walls.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

A +2 Fire Punch doesn't OHKO Skarm, IIRC. And +2 LO Outrage almost always 2HKOs Skarm, so except for the confusion, Ono doesn't really need Fire Punch, while it does need EQ to KO bulky Steels like Metagross before it KOs Ono.

 

[blasphemy1]

A +2 Fire Punch doesn't OHKO Skarm, IIRC. And +2 LO Outrage almost always 2HKOs Skarm, so except for the confusion, Ono doesn't really need Fire Punch, while it does need EQ to KO bulky Steels like Metagross before it KOs Ono.

Jolly: 79.6% - 94%
Adamant: 87.4% - 103%

That's on 252/240+ Skarmory, and many are running special defense sets.

I'd much rather use Fire Punch than try to predict Whirlwind or Brave Bird and locking yourself into Outrage. Fire Punch also OHKOs Forretress and Nattorei. Fire Punch in its arsenal would mean it would hardly ever consider Taunt.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Oops...

But you're right, as discussed earlier, a fire move means Taunt is pretty much useless. Ono's movepool stinks.

Taunt does have some use to stop Roar, although when Ono can OHKO pretty much everything but Forry, Nattorei, and Skarm, it's just disappointing.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Why is everyone trying a Dragonite vs Ononokusu discussion? Yes, Dragonite has the complete and total edge in bulk with a better stats spread, better defensive ability, and a much better movepool, but Ononokusu has it's Monstrously high atk to work with. That's it strength. You need to go with that if your planning on making a bulky spread. Then you focus on what kinda bulk you should put into Ononokusu. To even take 1 ev off of that atk to make a bulky spread is completely dumbfounded.

 

[AxelLow]

Why is everyone trying a Dragonite vs Ononokusu discussion? Yes, Dragonite has the complete and total edge in bulk with a better stats spread, better defensive ability, and a much better movepool, but Ononokusu has it's Monstrously high atk to work with. That's it strength. You need to go with that if your planning on making a bulky spread. Then you focus on what kinda bulk you should put into Ononokusu. To even take 1 ev off of that atk to make a bulky spread is completely dumbfounded.

No one is talking about the Ono to Nite comparison anymore, other then the few post above that happened hours ago. Several bulky sets have already been posted, with the minimum requirements and such for Ono to be as great as it is. Don't take this harshly either since I know some people get pretty angry when you tell them something.

But, yea, If you want to run the bulky Ono sets you need atleast a minimum of 80 spe EV's, and then as you've just stated, and as i've stated before, you invest enough attack EV's to where it doesn't lose out on it's K.O's. You can have as low as 100 atk EV's when running adamant, getting you to 390 attack total, which is a good bit of EV's left to place into bulk.

Also, IMO, if Ono had Fire Punch, hell yea I would forgo taunt for sure. Actually, I kind of forgo it now, and simply place Dragon Claw in from time to time. Taunt still shutsdown somethings, but if you have other methods of dealing with them, then, IMO, I like having Dragon Claw so I'm not locked into Outrage constantly.

 

[GravityZero]

I look at a Onono the same way I look at a Daruma: Okay, I'm going to lose one pokemon. Then my Infernape's gonna come in and kill it.

Actually, when they DD, I'm happier. Cause then I'm like yeah my Ditto's totally gotta Outrage ur team in a sec, ty.

Moral of the story: If you're running SD/DD on this thing, better be able to wall it as well, or Ditto WILL rock your world. That means keep your Scizor/Natt/Skarm healthy or keep a ScarfChomp/Mence/Flygon or Technician/Iron Fist priority on call.

 

[Frost Nocturne]

I look at a Onono the same way I look at a Daruma: Okay, I'm going to lose one pokemon. Then my Infernape's gonna come in and kill it.

Actually, when they DD, I'm happier. Cause then I'm like yeah my Ditto's totally gotta Outrage ur team in a sec, ty.

Moral of the story: If you're running SD/DD on this thing, better be able to wall it as well, or Ditto WILL rock your world. That means keep your Nattorei/Skarm healty or keep a Technician/Iron Fist priority on call.

That's why I use Substitute. There's too many things trying to gain the upper hand in speed with a scarf, as well as priority. With a sub, you can run Adamant easier and still crush things even without a boost. Plus the only attacks Ono really needs anyway are Outrage/Dragon Claw + Earthquake. And any other DDer is revenged by Ditto as well.

 

[KurashiDragon]

No one is talking about the Ono to Nite comparison anymore, other then the few post above that happened hours ago. Several bulky sets have already been posted, with the minimum requirements and such for Ono to be as great as it is. Don't take this harshly either since I know some people get pretty angry when you tell them something.

But, yea, If you want to run the bulky Ono sets you need atleast a minimum of 80 spe EV's, and then as you've just stated, and as i've stated before, you invest enough attack EV's to where it doesn't lose out on it's K.O's. You can have as low as 100 atk EV's when running adamant, getting you to 390 attack total, which is a good bit of EV's left to place into bulk.

Also, IMO, if Ono had Fire Punch, hell yea I would forgo taunt for sure. Actually, I kind of forgo it now, and simply place Dragon Claw in from time to time. Taunt still shutsdown somethings, but if you have other methods of dealing with them, then, IMO, I like having Dragon Claw so I'm not locked into Outrage constantly.

I wasn't angry. I was actually very calm about it when I posted. Actually I was more humored that some people were saying Dragonite outclasses something lol.

It's not just 80 evs in atk. I feel that if you don't invest most to max evs in Ononokusu your really wasting it's potential. Ononokusu has a terrible amount of atk. That needs to be abused or it's just trying to compare itself to another dragon of the metagame.

Fire punch would be a good thing but my guess is that game freak saw this and decided..... na he's powerful enough.

 

[GravityZero]

That's why I use Substitute. There's too many things trying to gain the upper hand in speed with a scarf, as well as priority. With a sub, you can run Adamant easier and still crush things even without a boost. Plus the only attacks Ono really needs anyway are Outrage/Dragon Claw + Earthquake. And any other DDer is revenged by Ditto as well.

I don't use Ditto as a counter, tho, it's a revenge killer (so I can use it multiple times without it wearing out).

So, you'll usually have no sub (unless my poke was incapable of breaking onono's sub, and how many are that weak without burn besides... Erufuun?)

 

[AxelLow]

I wasn't angry. I was actually very calm about it when I posted. Actually I was more humored that some people were saying Dragonite outclasses something lol.

It's not just 80 evs in atk. I feel that if you don't invest most to max evs in Ononokusu your really wasting it's potential. Ononokusu has a terrible amount of atk. That needs to be abused or it's just trying to compare itself to another dragon of the metagame.

Fire punch would be a good thing but my guess is that game freak saw this and decided..... na he's powerful enough.

You got the EV's mixed up Kurashi. It's 80 spe EV's not Atk.

100 Atk EV's with Admant nature goes a loooong way, being if not just as strong, or stronger then most DD'ers (missing beating standard Ray set by 9 pts). Calcs have been up before showing it still K.O's things just as many things it did before with just 100 Atk EV's, and Adamant nature. In fact, when you start to reach that excess amount of percentages, it starts becoming less useful in the long run where you could convert that percentage into more bulk. IMO, max attack is fine, but if you want more bulk, don't go below 100 Atk EV's otherwise you WONT be able to capitalize on it's attack stat.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

You're correct AxelLow, I just want to note that the SD sets require maximum Atk to work.

EDIT: Since the person who I responded to with this post deleted theirs, here's some sets for Ono if anyone cares.

Look here for reyscarface's analysis, and also consider AxelLow's bulky DD set:

Ononokusu @Haban Berry/Leftovers/Life Orb/Lum Berry
EV's: 156 HP/100 Atk/174 Def/80 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Dragon Tail/Brick Break/Counter

Although you'll probably want to have 100 speed, to outspeed Scarfchomp after 2 DDs, but it's not essential, since Scarfchomp will probably be switching in when you only have one.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Although you'll probably want to have 100 speed, to outspeed Scarfchomp after 2 DDs, but it's not essential, since Scarfchomp will probably be switching in when you only have one.

If my calculations are correct, then 80 Speed EV's already outspeed ScarfChomp after 2 DD's.

252 Spe Jolly Garchomp (base 102 Spe) hits 333, which becomes 499.5 Speed with the Scarf. Since GameFreak hates decimals, it stays at 499.

Meanwhile, Ononokusu hits 250 Spe with 80 Spe EV's, meaning that after 2 DD's, you hit right at 500 Spe, outspeeding ScarfChomp by one point.

I think it might be good, however, to invest enough Speed to outrun Scarved base 105's like Zoroark, Mismagius, and Kojando. If they are +natured and max Speed, these three sit at 508 Spe with their Scarves. If you invested 100 Speed EV's, you hit 255 Spe, and 510 after 2 DD's, which makes me think that's what you meant.