I don't think its defences and speed especially with all the new 100+ base pokemon will really cut it using a SD set. In theory Dragon Dance or maybe a late game Scarfer seem the best options to me.
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Haxorus
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CB Max Donphan can't even manage to OHKO Garchomp with Ice Shard, so no.
I reckon even neutral nature CS Weavile might have trouble OHKOing Ono with Ice Punch.
This thing is a beast.
I really wanted to make this discussion since this guy is currently my favorite 5th gen pokemon. Not because its powerful but because it evolves from Kibago who is adorable. Anyway, I was thinking about a possible set to take advantage of its decent typing and moderate bulk.
Ononokusu @ Leftovers
Adamant/Jolly nature
172 HP / 156 Def / 180 SpD
Rest
Sleep Talk
Swords Dance
Outrage
Basically, I'm not sure about the EVs they just looked good, 172 HP gives it a leftovers number I just kind of threw the rest of them in there, since its got a monstrous base 147 attack i figure with RestTalking to boost its attack or attack with a huge STAB move nothing is really gonna stop it. Also, Outrage doesn't confuse you if you are asleep so bonus there I guess.
Ononokusu @ Leftovers
Adamant/Jolly nature
172 HP / 156 Def / 180 SpD
Rest
Sleep Talk
Swords Dance
Outrage
Basically, I'm not sure about the EVs they just looked good, 172 HP gives it a leftovers number I just kind of threw the rest of them in there, since its got a monstrous base 147 attack i figure with RestTalking to boost its attack or attack with a huge STAB move nothing is really gonna stop it. Also, Outrage doesn't confuse you if you are asleep so bonus there I guess.
Ononokusu has Attack and Speed compatable to Rayquaza's so even if Ononokusu is let in OU it will be seen in Ubers Murdering Dragons with Dragon Claw and Night Slash/Shadow Claw. Also, Ononokusu will be able to survive stuff like Quagsire's Ice Beam, which would kill Rayquaza
I'm not saying Ononokusu should be in Ubers. What I'm saying is even if it is aloud in OU expect it in Ubers (and OU)
I'm not saying Ononokusu should be in Ubers. What I'm saying is even if it is aloud in OU expect it in Ubers (and OU)
Maybe it's because I don't play singles, just VGC, but I don't see what all the hype about OH! NO! NO! is about. I mean, he has an amazing sprite, but... :/ from a VGC perspective, there are just so many mons that outspeed and 1HKO him. Palkia (spacial Rend), Salamence (who neuters his Atk), Banded Flygon (lol), Garchomp (with a band or Orb), Scarfed Latios and Specs Latias. All of which were allowed in VGC '10 and quite possibly could be in VGC '11.
Is it different in singles?
Is it different in singles?
Yes, very very different. From my understanding (Which is limited) switching is pretty hard in doubles because of all the variables, while in single play, you only have to switch something in that can handle ONE poke as opposed to two. So if you have this out and a flygon comes in, you just switch in your (Insert steel here) and move on with life. Also, many of the pokemon you mentioned could outspeed and OHKO him are *Currently* residing in ubers.
Okay this guy is a real interesting character. My honest prediction is an Ubers vote due to the sheer unpredictability of this 'mon. While he doesn't have a fuck-you ability like Garchomp, he does have an awesome one, two actually if you want to get cute. He has access to both SD AND DD which will probably require some entirely different switch ins, and an obviously obscene attack stat.
Of course there are some downsides. Pure dragon typing, with this stat distribution, is not good at all. If he were more bulky, maybe, but the reason Salamence and Garchomp were good is that they had immunities and bulk to switch into. Well Axeface doesn't have any of that, so getting him in is going to be really difficult. He also doesn't have any other cool STAB to abuse (not that Mence did, but Chomp's earthquake was nice). Considering his poor defense in comparison to his comrades, it's also going to be pretty hard to get him a chance to set up, as he can't even set up on choice-locked pokemon due to his lack of resists. Also, his 97 speed stat means he gets revenged by a myriad of faster threats with a scarf. He can't run any mixed sets because his spatk sucks.
So the cons are a lot longer than the pros: but really I think he'll centralize the metagame to an obscene degree. Basically, he is a NIGHTMARE if you are running stall despite his piss-poor spatk because taunt + SD or DD is just mean. He also is nigh impossible to set up, but once this occurs, he WILL sweep. What this means is that we form a hyper-offensive metagame where we are constantly trying not to give him a chance to set up by applying constant pressure(which is easy, as long as you aren't using stall or any choice mons) and trying to sacrifice Pokemon to give him a chance to set up on something, perhaps with substitute or a baton pass or tricking goggles or something. In other words, this is hyper offense, whose-Axeface-can-get-going-first-game where stall is too vulnerable and bulky offense doesn't apply enough pressure.
Again this is all based on speculation, I'm psyched to use such a perfectly powerful yet severely unbalanced Pokemon. Related: that candle thing has almost the exact opposite effect, this should be interesting.
Of course there are some downsides. Pure dragon typing, with this stat distribution, is not good at all. If he were more bulky, maybe, but the reason Salamence and Garchomp were good is that they had immunities and bulk to switch into. Well Axeface doesn't have any of that, so getting him in is going to be really difficult. He also doesn't have any other cool STAB to abuse (not that Mence did, but Chomp's earthquake was nice). Considering his poor defense in comparison to his comrades, it's also going to be pretty hard to get him a chance to set up, as he can't even set up on choice-locked pokemon due to his lack of resists. Also, his 97 speed stat means he gets revenged by a myriad of faster threats with a scarf. He can't run any mixed sets because his spatk sucks.
So the cons are a lot longer than the pros: but really I think he'll centralize the metagame to an obscene degree. Basically, he is a NIGHTMARE if you are running stall despite his piss-poor spatk because taunt + SD or DD is just mean. He also is nigh impossible to set up, but once this occurs, he WILL sweep. What this means is that we form a hyper-offensive metagame where we are constantly trying not to give him a chance to set up by applying constant pressure(which is easy, as long as you aren't using stall or any choice mons) and trying to sacrifice Pokemon to give him a chance to set up on something, perhaps with substitute or a baton pass or tricking goggles or something. In other words, this is hyper offense, whose-Axeface-can-get-going-first-game where stall is too vulnerable and bulky offense doesn't apply enough pressure.
Again this is all based on speculation, I'm psyched to use such a perfectly powerful yet severely unbalanced Pokemon. Related: that candle thing has almost the exact opposite effect, this should be interesting.
I already posted this in the dragons of gen V thread, but whatever.
Anti-lead Ononokusu
Ononokusu@Life Orb
Jolly Nature
252 attk/246 speed/10 def
Taunt
Outrage
Firepunch/ (insert physical fire move)
Thunderpunch/Earthquake
The aim of this set is to take down the opponent’s lead, and possibly 1 or 2 more ‘mons after it.
I’m rather clueless about EV allocation, but these are just my ideas on what would work. Max attack to smash through everything in it’s path, 246 speed to outrun slower ‘mons like Lucario and Roserade, and 10 points goes into it’s passable defences.
Item choice is obvious, Life Orb for max damage output, ensuring OHKO’s against tougher mons which won’t normally succumb to an outrage.
Taunt won’t work against leads with overkill speed such as Aerodactyl and Azelf, but they’ll help against bulky leads like Metagross and Swampert. Firepunch (or a new, better physical fire move) is a must for taking down steel type leads such as Foretress and Levitate Bronzong. Thunderpunch (or new, better electric physical) will help against bulky waters, while Earthquake nabs a quick KO against Tyranitar and Metagross.
I’m aware that there will probably be a new set of leads in Gen V, but this is just a suggestion.
Anti-lead Ononokusu
Ononokusu@Life Orb
Jolly Nature
252 attk/246 speed/10 def
Taunt
Outrage
Firepunch/ (insert physical fire move)
Thunderpunch/Earthquake
The aim of this set is to take down the opponent’s lead, and possibly 1 or 2 more ‘mons after it.
I’m rather clueless about EV allocation, but these are just my ideas on what would work. Max attack to smash through everything in it’s path, 246 speed to outrun slower ‘mons like Lucario and Roserade, and 10 points goes into it’s passable defences.
Item choice is obvious, Life Orb for max damage output, ensuring OHKO’s against tougher mons which won’t normally succumb to an outrage.
Taunt won’t work against leads with overkill speed such as Aerodactyl and Azelf, but they’ll help against bulky leads like Metagross and Swampert. Firepunch (or a new, better physical fire move) is a must for taking down steel type leads such as Foretress and Levitate Bronzong. Thunderpunch (or new, better electric physical) will help against bulky waters, while Earthquake nabs a quick KO against Tyranitar and Metagross.
I’m aware that there will probably be a new set of leads in Gen V, but this is just a suggestion.
Death to Floating Bell
Except it will have to contend with Mold Breaker... goodbye immunity!
Except it will have to contend with Mold Breaker... goodbye immunity!
Rampardos is obvious. Pathetic speed and defences. Ono actually has healthy amounts of those
I'm predicting something like infernape, hyped but after a while not so powerful, yet still a huge threat.
I'm predicting something like infernape, hyped but after a while not so powerful, yet still a huge threat.
So he doesn't seem to get a Physical Fire move. At least the weird Grass / Steel land mine thing has a SMALL chance at killing it.. right? Skarmory can survive its hits decently as long as you aren't put in a bad place from Taunt. Its still not going to take hard hits well from scarfed things like Flygon or Garchomp (Garchomp can nearly OHKO even through a Haban Berry). CB Scizor hits it for 65% on average while CB Mamoswine Ice Shard has a good chance at wiping him out in one hit (after rocks). Scarf Latias or Salamence always OHKO him after Stealth Rocks. Jirachi always 2HKOs after rocks with Iron Head!
Onono Dragon is a massive broken obvious Uber threat - If we were still played 4th gen. Look at all the hard hitting Pokes who are much, much faster. Like that mole! Lots of other things have insane attack and speed, enough to break this dragon in one hit. Onono is attracting a lot of attention because he hits harder than Garchomp and has both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. So what?
If people can drop the notion that everything must be walled you can see this thing is actually fairly easy to revenge kill (assuming Haban or Yache Berry hes still taking heavy hits with his average defenses) and isn't instant death to stall teams. Even modern stall can likely take him out with Gyarados + Forretress (Sand + Toxic Spikes) but don't forget some new 5th gen additions like the afore mentioned Grass / Steel land mine and old Skarmory / Forretress (admittedly not much else).
Its big and damn scary, but besides the hyper powered attack the rest of his stats aren't much worse than Salamence. 97 Speed really hurts him.
Onono Dragon is a massive broken obvious Uber threat - If we were still played 4th gen. Look at all the hard hitting Pokes who are much, much faster. Like that mole! Lots of other things have insane attack and speed, enough to break this dragon in one hit. Onono is attracting a lot of attention because he hits harder than Garchomp and has both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. So what?
If people can drop the notion that everything must be walled you can see this thing is actually fairly easy to revenge kill (assuming Haban or Yache Berry hes still taking heavy hits with his average defenses) and isn't instant death to stall teams. Even modern stall can likely take him out with Gyarados + Forretress (Sand + Toxic Spikes) but don't forget some new 5th gen additions like the afore mentioned Grass / Steel land mine and old Skarmory / Forretress (admittedly not much else).
Its big and damn scary, but besides the hyper powered attack the rest of his stats aren't much worse than Salamence. 97 Speed really hurts him.
Salamence and Garchomp are still more threatening than Ononokusu. 12 more base attack is really just overkill, considering base 135 and 130 respectively get the job done, and they both have better stats in all the other categories--Garchomp especially.
"Only" doesn't apply in this case, as those points are a HUGE deal. Onono is currently revenge killed by all dragons save Altaria, Kurimugan, and non-rain Kingdra.
There are plenty of pokemon that lie at the 100-speed benchmark and above (this gen alone, Base 108 speed seems to have become a benchmark of its own), and with such frail defenses it won't like taking hits.
There are plenty of pokemon that lie at the 100-speed benchmark and above (this gen alone, Base 108 speed seems to have become a benchmark of its own), and with such frail defenses it won't like taking hits.
Stop comparing with chomp and mence. if you played the real game on the ds you need ono anyway. gamefreak dosent make pokemon for you to compare.
A +1 Outrage from Ono 2HKO's Skarmory with an offensive set :).
And yes, so far, only Garchomp, maybe flygon, and Scizor(possibly Sazando as well) can revenge kill it(bar other dragons). But any other boost afterwards will garuantee a sweep on just about everything. BUT! That doesn't stop it's frailness, but that frailness isn't by a large margin either.
In a nutshell, you dont want to compare him to mence, or chomp, not even in the stats department, because Ono has it's own obvious perks outside of those pokes. As such, he is still a threat like any other DD'er ala TTar, Gyara, Kingdra, etc., which still continues to not be discussed since Ono fights more towards their category even if it is a dragon.
It can run a DD set just fine. Hell, it can run a chestoRest set if it damn well wanted to. It isn't outclassed by Mence and Chomp, and shouldn't be compared to them in the least bit. It's a retarded comparison, and is even more retarded then trying to compare dragonite and mence, or Flygon and Chomp.
It runs in an entirely different field. It plays in OU like the other DD'ers/CB'ers/Scarfers. It'll have it's perks over mence, and chomp, and people continue to compare it to the others. Hype is one thing with people spewing "UBER UBER" all over the damn place, but tiers shouldn't even be a factor yet. Ono is about as overhyped as all the other pokes, but gets more flame then the rest because he can't compare to the other dragons? Then stop comparing it to the other dragons, open up your damn perspectives, and look outside of that! Does that make him overhyped? NO. Is Ono still a strong pokemon? YES.
It runs in an entirely different field. It plays in OU like the other DD'ers/CB'ers/Scarfers. It'll have it's perks over mence, and chomp, and people continue to compare it to the others. Hype is one thing with people spewing "UBER UBER" all over the damn place, but tiers shouldn't even be a factor yet. Ono is about as overhyped as all the other pokes, but gets more flame then the rest because he can't compare to the other dragons? Then stop comparing it to the other dragons, open up your damn perspectives, and look outside of that! Does that make him overhyped? NO. Is Ono still a strong pokemon? YES.
Uh, what? Why would be not compare Onono to Salamence and especially Garchomp, the most similar pokemon to it? It does not play on a "completely different field" to the other two, because they'll likely be fighting alongside each other in OU for a while in the beginning at least.
It's definitely outclassed as a DDer / SDer by Salamence and Garchomp respectively, because of it's inferior SpA and 'meh' movepool. This pokemon will be best as a Choice Bander (even Choice Scarf is suspect with Sazando and Flygon around)with Magnezone or Shanderra support, because of how hard it can hit and the fact that it can't take hits very well.
It's definitely outclassed as a DDer / SDer by Salamence and Garchomp respectively, because of it's inferior SpA and 'meh' movepool. This pokemon will be best as a Choice Bander (even Choice Scarf is suspect with Sazando and Flygon around)with Magnezone or Shanderra support, because of how hard it can hit and the fact that it can't take hits very well.
Well said, exactly the point I've been trying to make. Ono will make mincemeat out of others who aren't dragons, as I've said before. Can't you switch it in on some set-up fodder and dragon dance, thus making it outspeed the other dragons? So what if it get's revenge killed too easily? My Mamoswine has been tearing apart Mences, Nites, Chomps and Gons since I started playing. Damaged by spikes, toxic spikes and sandstorm? So are other popular sweepers we like to use. Why flame it because it gets hyped?
Also we musn't forget it gets taunt, which is what the other dragons you compare it to dosen't have. Wallbreaker? Possibly.
What does it's SpA have to do with how good it can use DD/SD? Not really getting you're point there. In Mence's case, the SpA was important, so that it could get around stuff like Brozong and Skarmory with Fire Blast, and have a Draco Meteor to boot. However, just because SpA is important to Salamence even on its DD sets, that doesn't mean it is for the other dragons--which brings me to Garchomp.
Garchomp, however, really is more comparable, though they are distinct Pokemon--just like Garchomp, Ono's SpA is probably for the most part entirely irrelevant, as it doesn't need to use it. There were the occasional ChainChomp and such, but for the most part, it never really ran Fire Blast. Same deal here, if not better. With it's 147 Attack+Mold Breaker, Ono can get past most stuff with just Outrage+Earthquake, meaning it doesn't need to run Fire Blast/Fire Fang at all.
Getting such good coverage with just two moves, I really don't see why SD/DD wouldn't be viable on it, if not some of its best options--SD boosts it's attack to ridiculous levels, whereas DD uses a free slot to boost it's middling speed and give it an appreciated attack boost. In either case though, with SD/DD combined with Mold Breaker Outrage+Earthquake, it tears through most stuff, including Skarmory (sure, it may still survive a hit and Whirlwind it away, but like with Garchomp, that's more delaying the inevitable than anything. Plus, on a DD/Outrage/EQ set, Ono still has one free slot left, which can be given to Taunt to stop Whirlwind+Roost cold.).
Really though, they seem like great options on it, and the combination of its 147 Attack and Mold Breaker allowing it to get excellent coverage with just two attacks give it a unique niche that will separate it from the DD/SD sets of the other dragons. And in fact, I don't get why you would use a CB set on this thing at all, really--as you pointed out, it has a rather "meh" movepool, which makes a CB set real iffy. The first three moves would be Outrage/Dragon Claw/EQ... but then what? It doesn't really seem to get much else, at least nothing worse using that doesn't get covered by those three moves. Maybe for some sort of gimmicky Rivalry set or something, but beyond that, DD/SD would seem to take better advantage of its meh movepool.
Anyway, with Ono's unique features, an interesting gimmick set that I'd like to try out would be something like this:
Ononokusu@Life Orb
Mold Breaker
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Spe
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Swords Dance
-Dragon Dance
Definitely not it's best set, but nonetheless a viable one. Due to the coverage from the first two moves, it has two free slots, which can be used to run both Dances at once, which lets you choose the booth depending on the opponent. But again, that's just a gimmick. The more common sets will probably wind up something like this:
Ononokusu@Life Orb
Mold Breaker
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Spe
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw/Substitute
Outrage and Earthquake as the main attacking moves, for near-flawless coverage, DD to open up a sweep, and the last move being a filler--Dragon Claw to not have to lock yourself into Outrage when unnecessary, whereas Substitute is an equally viable option for scouting switch-ins and responding appropriately. Taunt is again also a nice option for the last slot, to stop stuff like Skarmory cold.
This dragon is da man! With Dragon Dance, he is going to hit HARDER than salamence. He can use SubSword Dance pretty damn well.147 base atk, he can destroy every pokemon when he gets a SD behind sub. Anyways, nice pokemon gamefreak, except its broken >_>
Its probably not broken. It can hit hard, but its slow (sorta) and frail.
I agree, Naxte, and Penguin.
In fact, I could live with the comparison to chomp, but regardless, Ono is still just Ono to me. It can wreck havoc just like any other, and his stats are good enough to allow him the presence of being a threat regardless of what tier it's in.
@Random- Do you even understand your own post? Your basically arguing your own assumptions. No one gives a rats ass about it's SpA so why even bring it up? Because mence has better SpA? Why compare it to mence in the first place if it so obviously outclasses it? If your supposed comparison to mence clearly stats that it's outclassed, then why is there a comparison in the first place? You can't even clearly state outside of the obvious factors as to why this thing can't act on it's own outside of mence, and chomp. You think Kingdra gives a shit, about those two? What about TTar? Hell! Gyara? Gyara ran rampant even when chomp, and mence were around. So what kind of arguement are you even putting up when you can't even see around the constant comparisons to the other two dragons?
In fact, I could live with the comparison to chomp, but regardless, Ono is still just Ono to me. It can wreck havoc just like any other, and his stats are good enough to allow him the presence of being a threat regardless of what tier it's in.
@Random- Do you even understand your own post? Your basically arguing your own assumptions. No one gives a rats ass about it's SpA so why even bring it up? Because mence has better SpA? Why compare it to mence in the first place if it so obviously outclasses it? If your supposed comparison to mence clearly stats that it's outclassed, then why is there a comparison in the first place? You can't even clearly state outside of the obvious factors as to why this thing can't act on it's own outside of mence, and chomp. You think Kingdra gives a shit, about those two? What about TTar? Hell! Gyara? Gyara ran rampant even when chomp, and mence were around. So what kind of arguement are you even putting up when you can't even see around the constant comparisons to the other two dragons?