Not when that Jirachi gets 2HKOed by Haxorus's fucking Outrage, or just gets shitted on by Earthquake. Aside from Skarmory and Ferrothorn, every other Steel-type commonly used in OU are 2HKOed by Outrage! And while Haxorus may not have the greatest of defences, saying it's "very frail" is completely wrong.
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Haxorus
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Not when that Jirachi gets 2HKOed by Haxorus's fucking Outrage, or just gets shitted on by Earthquake. Aside from Skarmory and Ferrothorn, every other Steel-type commonly used in OU are 2HKOed by Outrage! And while Haxorus may not have the greatest of defences, saying it's "very frail" is completely wrong.
I don't have access to a damage calculator right now as I'm posting from my phone, but these are the scenarios I see when looking at CB Haxorus in particular.
Haxorus used Outrage! Jirachi took, say, 60%. Jirachi used Iron Head! Haxorus Flinched/Fainted.
Haxorus used Outrage! Bronzong took, I have no idea. Bronzong used Gyro Ball! Haxorus fainted.
Haxorus used Earthquake! Jirachi took 85% or something. Jirachi switched out! Haxorus used Earthquake. It was not very effective.
Or. Haxorus used Outrage! Haxorus killed death fodder. User switched out faster than base 97 Adamant Pokemon! Haxorus fainted.
From what I understand both you, Berserker Lord and NatGeo are telling me...Haxorus is hard to deal with when all of its checks are killed. I'm fairly certain that's true for all Pokemon. A good Haxorus player won't be spamming Outrage from the start, which makes it even easier to deal with. Then you keep in mind that it gets outsped by a shit ton of things, worn down through Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc, can get burned, or have toxic spikes wearing it down even more, then takes sandstream damage, etc. With that wearing down its health, its leaves-more-to-be-desired defenses are taking a lot from even neutral attacks, which can often spell the end for our favorite fucking dinosaur dragon thing. Every good team has something that can tank a single outrage or outspeed it, or something, and that's really all you need. If we're playing the prediction game, NatGeo, then I'll say I'm a good user against Haxorus and don't ever switch Jirachi into earthquakes or something. It's really not that hard to deal with, especially sine Scizor, Dragonite, Landorus, Excadrill, Bronzong, Jirachi, Skarmory, Scarf anything, Ferrothorn, Salamence, etc insert more common Pokemon here can deal with it. If it has to kill a piece of death fodder or a useless member before you can bring something in to handle it, then Haxorus had to kill something.
Lum DD is the scariest for me, by far.
Haxorus used Outrage! Jirachi took, say, 60%. Jirachi used Iron Head! Haxorus Flinched/Fainted.
Haxorus used Outrage! Bronzong took, I have no idea. Bronzong used Gyro Ball! Haxorus fainted.
Haxorus used Earthquake! Jirachi took 85% or something. Jirachi switched out! Haxorus used Earthquake. It was not very effective.
Or. Haxorus used Outrage! Haxorus killed death fodder. User switched out faster than base 97 Adamant Pokemon! Haxorus fainted.
From what I understand both you, Berserker Lord and NatGeo are telling me...Haxorus is hard to deal with when all of its checks are killed. I'm fairly certain that's true for all Pokemon. A good Haxorus player won't be spamming Outrage from the start, which makes it even easier to deal with. Then you keep in mind that it gets outsped by a shit ton of things, worn down through Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc, can get burned, or have toxic spikes wearing it down even more, then takes sandstream damage, etc. With that wearing down its health, its leaves-more-to-be-desired defenses are taking a lot from even neutral attacks, which can often spell the end for our favorite fucking dinosaur dragon thing. Every good team has something that can tank a single outrage or outspeed it, or something, and that's really all you need. If we're playing the prediction game, NatGeo, then I'll say I'm a good user against Haxorus and don't ever switch Jirachi into earthquakes or something. It's really not that hard to deal with, especially sine Scizor, Dragonite, Landorus, Excadrill, Bronzong, Jirachi, Skarmory, Scarf anything, Ferrothorn, Salamence, etc insert more common Pokemon here can deal with it. If it has to kill a piece of death fodder or a useless member before you can bring something in to handle it, then Haxorus had to kill something.
Lum DD is the scariest for me, by far.
It goes more like this:
Haxorus uses Outrage! Jirachi takes 43.8% - 51.5%, an easy 2HKO with a bit of residuel damage, which Jirachi will likely have, or a simple layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Bronzong gets Earthquaked because Haxorus has the bitching Mold Breaker to negate Levitate. And Jirachi is absolutley raped by Earthquake, being OHKOed with Stealth Rock. Haxorus is hard to deal with because it's Outrage is fucking ridiculous, being able to 2HKO Steels with just a bit of residuel damage, and the fact that it can seriously fuck over almost any bulky slow team if they don't pack Skarmory.
Haxorus uses Outrage! Jirachi takes 43.8% - 51.5%, an easy 2HKO with a bit of residuel damage, which Jirachi will likely have, or a simple layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Bronzong gets Earthquaked because Haxorus has the bitching Mold Breaker to negate Levitate. And Jirachi is absolutley raped by Earthquake, being OHKOed with Stealth Rock. Haxorus is hard to deal with because it's Outrage is fucking ridiculous, being able to 2HKO Steels with just a bit of residuel damage, and the fact that it can seriously fuck over almost any bulky slow team if they don't pack Skarmory.
Jirachi will frequently be able to outspeed and take it with Iron Head flinch hax if necessary. That will be on Haxorus. Haxorus does have Mold Breaker. But keep in mind we're discussing CB Haxorus. It only gets one move at a time. We can't say "if you predict it really well and catch the Bronzong on the switch with Earthquake, Haxorus is amazing." If you predict ANYONE well and catch something on the switch, you can do a lot of damage. I can predict the Bronzong prediction and then switch to Zapdos or something. That street works both ways. I will concede that it fucks up slow teams though. But teams that are that slow and don't have a Skarmory or something similar are just asking to lose.
Again, it's not that hard to switch in on a nonthreatening Pokemon, predict that they will bring in, say, Jirachi or Bronzong, and then use Mold Breaker Earthquake, which, as B_L said, just rapes face on anything that doesn't resist it. It's extremely easy to net a single kill with Haxorus, though I'll admit it is a bit harder to net more kills when you're not spamming Outrage, but it allows you to switch out to the appropriate counter for, say Skarmory (Magnezone would like a word). It is easy to predict with Haxorus if just because of the power it brings to the table, but I have never needed to "predict a prediction" like you have stated in my experience in laddering. Haxorus is a hard Pokemon to deal with when its checks are removed - those checks are few and far between, with the only hard counter being Skarmory. Even then, if you bring it in later, when Skarmory's gone or even just brought down to about 1/3, it can sweep teams up.
"Predicting a prediction" was just my way of saying something's always a threat or not a threat if you play against it perfectly. I agree completely that it's an amazing clean-up Pokemon, and that it can break walls. I just don't agree that it's a significant threat due to its low speed and ability to be revenge killed or OHKOed by a strong, neutral attack.
This. That's exactly what I'm saying. EVERY Pokemon is hard to deal with when its checks are removed--it's not only exclusive to Haxorus. If I killed your Gastrodon and Tyranitar, then I can sweep with Thunderus. If I killed your Gliscor/Skarmory/whatever, I can sweep with Excadrill. If you remove a Pokemon's checks, then yes, it is a hard threat to deal with. This is why I'm mainly having difficulties accepting your arguments as they stem from it sweeping when its checks are removed. It's a good Pokemon and relatively hard to switch into, but it's not hard to deal with unless its "checks are removed."
This. That's exactly what I'm saying. EVERY Pokemon is hard to deal with when its checks are removed--it's not only exclusive to Haxorus. If I killed your Gastrodon and Tyranitar, then I can sweep with Thunderus. If I killed your Gliscor/Skarmory/whatever, I can sweep with Excadrill. If you remove a Pokemon's checks, then yes, it is a hard threat to deal with. This is why I'm mainly having difficulties accepting your arguments as they stem from it sweeping when its checks are removed. It's a good Pokemon and relatively hard to switch into, but it's not hard to deal with unless its "checks are removed."
Metagross takes only 38.7% - 45.6%, a 3HKO with rocks up and Leftovers, if Hax hits max damage roll. Metagross 2HKO's all the time with Rocks up and Meteor Mash/Ice Punch + Bullet Punch, and something like ~85% without. Even an Earthquake only has a small chance to KO Meta without rocks/spikes up.
Forretress can also survive Outrages/earthquakes from it (4HKo'd on average with Lefties) and 3HKO back with Gyro Ball. A Physically defensive Choice Band Scizor can always 2HKO while being 3HKO'd in return.
Its power is good, but as for being this thing that just runs over everyone it isn't.
Metagross is genderless. And without mold breaker Bronzong completely walls it.
Nah dude I'd love what you're smoking but Rivalry kinda sucks no matter what gender you choose. The only fixed gender pokemon in OU are Blissey and Lati@s and if the rivalry boost is gonna matter against ANY of them you're playing Haxorus wrong. Rivalry's benefits end up being kind of random, then, since Gender doesn't really affect anything other Rivalry and uh, Attract? I'd love to play in that metagame though and use my Intimidate Hitmontop's fake out abilities to get your dealer's number.
Adamant. The power is what makes Haxorus so hard to deal with. From what I've seen, most stuff between base 100 and base 90 runs neutral speed natures.
Adamant, but only because there's no way Haxorus is going to be able to outspeed stuff like Lati@s, Hydreigon and Mence if they're all running max Speed. You'll want Adamant for the crazy raw power that Haxorus has.
Haxorus isn't slow per see, but in comparision to all the more versitile ones like Hydregion (one point!) and Salamence...well they get clean KO's because of that.
No, he is quite slow. Anyway, Hydreigon and versatile? It's got good Sp. Attack, and that's it. Haxorus is good because of his superior physicals, but has sucky special. In that way, they've got the little Yin-Yang thing going on, since he has Brick Break.
While it may seem that haxorus sucks, there are a few variables you need to remember.
-What if you've set up hazards on your side of the field?
-What if these mentioned pokemon already ave taken damage?
-What if haxorus isn't running an adamant nature? With one of the highest attack stats in the game, and access one of the most powerful dragon moves ever, and boosted by CB, I don't think haxorus NEEDS an adamant nature. Heck, run jolly.
To me though, Haxorus is more of a cleaner upper kind of guy. Once you're near the end of the battle, just send in haxorus to clean up the weakened team. Seems simple enough.
Now, I do understand where you're going with this. Haxorus is not perfect. Bronzong is IMO a great way to wall it off. Especially with gyro ball. But haxorus can do more than it seems. Kinda reminds me of rampardos in a way that its attack is awesome, but it's lacking something. Mainly speed.
Hydreigon has 92 HP, 105 Attack, 90/90 Defenses, 125 Sp.Attack, 98 Speed learns every Special Move a Dragon could ever want From Draco Meteor to Earth Power to Focus Blast & Surf.
It can be Physical, Special, Mixed, Mixed Work Up, Choice Scarf, Choice Spec, Choice Band, Status Support, oh and it has Taunt, but it's ability to go Mixed & it's bulk means it can actually stall-break with Taunt unlike Haxorus who Taunts & promptly gets hit by Gyro Ball or Brave Bird instead of just OHKOing the problem. Even Blissey can't fight it if it carries Crunch which they should since if hits Hydreigon's special counters far harder than Dark Pulse & Focus Blast.
Haxorus is always Physical & breaks through life itself while Hydreigon can do just about everything else.
There's really no point in comparing the two as they're about as different as Haxorus & Zoroark.
Outrage is a powerful attack for punching holes into the opposing team
Dragon claw is a weaker attack that can be used consistently
It depends on what you want A truck that runs out of gas early or a car that runs consistently. I personally use outrage just cause I can just switch out to avoid confusion damage.