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Alter

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does anyone else think spirit claws is busted? like most decent cards feel busted in shaman so it's hard to look at it objectively but it feels impossible for anything to stick early-game against other shamans unless you're shaman too and you slam totem golem. midshaman is impossible if you cant keep up with their early board cuz then they just spiral out with thunderbluff unless you're warrior and pop a brawl, and with spirit claws (and bolt + rockbiter + sticky early drops) it feels impossible to contend their board. but i mean spirit claws basically made midshaman an archetype so it's an easy thing to point to and say that this is the cause of this specific issue with shaman, obviously there are many.
the reason it's so busted is because, alongside maelstrom, it basically gave shaman the key to its biggest weakness beforehand: dealing with a bunch of smaller/sticky minions at once. prior to karazhan, shaman had a reasonably unfavoured matchup vs zoo, but the ability to deal with all those early-game minions and stabilise board for minor health loss with claws means it can spiral out of control quickly (and deal with zoo properly). 1 mana 1/3 isn't inherently awesome, but the spell damage boost is so stupidly easy to obtain. there are a bunch of decent minions you can chuck in (e.g. bloodmage thalnos) to turn it into an effective 3/3 weapon, which is insane.

top this onto the fact that you'll have anywhere between a 25-100% chance of getting the spell damage boost by clicking your hero power (because you can't summon a totem you already have), or the fact that it makes another advantageous outcome for tuskarr totemic and you've got a really good weapon for a class that already had a great early game (see: trogg, totem golem).
 

Matthew

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This is the first tier 0 deck since Sunshine and HunterTaker. If you ever wondered what Naxx meta first felt like just replace shaman with Hunter and you got it
 

Mr.E

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The key difference is that Blizzard isn't gonna swiftly nerfhammer the Shaman deck into the ground. :/
 

Mr.E

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Welp, looks like I lied. THANKS BLIZZARD

I maintain Tuskarr wasn't a big problem at all (incidentally the biggest one being in tandem with Totem Golem, which is as much about that card as it is Mr. Totemic). 4mana77 is dumb, if not that unfair, because on-curve it just automatically rolls over dudes sometimes (particularly Druids) without the downside of say Handlock's old Mountain Giants and Twilight Drakes where you're obligated to give up the board Turns 1-3. Thing From Below is just ridiculously broken. Even Doomhammer could use a serious look at, though I don't think it makes the cut of actually needing a nerf but 16 damage for 5(7) mana is super strong. Tuskarr... is underpowered roughly half the time and overpowered but not broken the other half of the time, which I think is a good spot for an RNG card to be in, in addition to playing Shaman's totem mechanic. Rockbiter isn't problematic per se, but I like putting it more in line with other standard 3-damage removal options (3 damage for 2 mana, plus upside) where its perk is Windfury synergies.

Call of the Wild for 8 is honestly a pretty fair and balanced card, it just happens to be fairly non-situational not unlike strong neutral legendaries (such as Rag or Boom). Maybe that alone is call for a nerf but I'd say not if they haven't touched Highmane all this time which itself is a better Cairne. Execute sure, personally I'd rather see Shield Slam get the nerfbat because Execute actually has a reasonably difficult condition attached (dealing damage first tends to require another card or an unfavorable trade) but I can understand why they went with Execute since it's a staple in all Warrior archetypes whereas SS is more exclusive to slower ones. Blizzard's crusade against the Charge mechanic continues. I don't like the Abusive nerf being predicated on the fact that it's a neutral one-drop (and no, Blizzard, it's not exactly a primo Turn 1 play...) and not objectively too strong but it may survive better in the metagame than Leper Gnome did. Maybe it won't, I dunno.

RIP Yogg-Skillon, Skill's End. You won't be missed.
 
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Grim

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Though I don't really agree with the Abusive Sergeant, Charge and Execute nerfs, I'm definitely glad for the other ones. Call of the Wild was just way too much versatility and card advantage for 8 mana, and I can see aggressive Hunter decks only using one of it in their decks now. Yogg nerf is pretty good too because it still keeps the ability to act as a panic button and board clear but without the shitstorm that comes with it, and I think we're all happy with shaman getting toned down just a bit.

I'm kind of annoyed by Blizzard's hate for OTK and instant damage in general but I can understand it I guess, I just feel like they're overlooking how hard it is to get to the OTK in the first place. It's not like the opponent doesn't have the whole game to try and stop it from happening. Making Execute more expensive also seems a little weird. It's not like Warrior has any other good ways to remove big minions (outside of Shield Slam which only works in control) so I think 1 mana was perfectly fine. I guess it's their way of limiting warrior since it's so good right now but I don't think its the right way. Overall I'm pretty happy though.
 

Mr.E

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A true 30+ damage OTK is difficult to achieve, though eminently possible in a number of ways. It certainly isn't difficult at all to hit double digits though and it really bothers me that Blizzard is so nerf-happy with certain methods of doing it (anything centered around Charge, e.g. Leeroy nerf, the gutting of Arcane Golem, Warsong Commander, Force of Nature, now Charge the card) but seemingly totally fine with others. Force-Roar is OP because ermahgerd 14 damage, but hell Grom does 10 or 12 on his own anyway. Leeroy doing 18+ is bad, Warrior isn't allowed to OTK with Worgen shenanigans, but it's cool if we do it with Malygos, itself a Classic card. Or C'Thun. Or Anyfin. Splurging Mage bullshit, etc.
 
yeah, in otk decks like worgen otk and I think arcane giant otk (although the latter wasnt that common iirc).
These nerfs are all really good imo
Execute I feel doesnt really hurt control warrior too much since it rarely matters that you have only one mana for it, although I suppose there are a couple cases where it becomes less powerful.
Charge's use has been changed completely so that its more of a tempo card than an otk card (magnataur alpha VALUE???)

Overall I feel like Blizz was trying to nerf the more aggro and tempo decks, perhaps to try and push control as a better playstyle? Not sure on that one though.
 

vonFiedler

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I still feel like for MOST metas, the new Charge is an improvement. Not a card that might see any play, but it's not like they kept it at 3 mana while changing the effect.
 

Blazade

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I don't think I can be too happy about a usage based nerf philosophy. It's like banning War Axe in Batstone, it seems silly to cut such a bread and butter card.

I'm not happy about Execute nerf because it is a big deal, Execute already has to be combined with other cards to be effective so bumping it to 2 mana makes it take up far too much of your turn.

I don't like the charge nerf either but I didn't like the Warsong nerf so I'm a terrible person.
 
executes still gonna be played imo but its just not gonna be the autoinclude in faster decks like its always been. good nerf.
felt abusive nerf was relatively unneeded and the charge nerf pisses me off. worgen was my favorite deck and was by no means broken, much less even top tier.
no comment on the remaining changes cause theyre obviously pretty healthy and welcome
 

Acklow

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5 mana 5 damage 3 minion board clear. Sounds like a legit way of handling boards with decent sized stuff.
 

Matthew

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Playing not the best shaman deck to legend and first time LUL.

Aside from, that nice man! I always struggled piloting aggro shaman correctly so you're doing something right!
 

Matthew

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A true 30+ damage OTK is difficult to achieve, though eminently possible in a number of ways. It certainly isn't difficult at all to hit double digits though and it really bothers me that Blizzard is so nerf-happy with certain methods of doing it (anything centered around Charge, e.g. Leeroy nerf, the gutting of Arcane Golem, Warsong Commander, Force of Nature, now Charge the card) but seemingly totally fine with others. Force-Roar is OP because ermahgerd 14 damage, but hell Grom does 10 or 12 on his own anyway. Leeroy doing 18+ is bad, Warrior isn't allowed to OTK with Worgen shenanigans, but it's cool if we do it with Malygos, itself a Classic card. Or C'Thun. Or Anyfin. Splurging Mage bullshit, etc.
Double post because,

But druid combo wasn't nerfed because it was a 14 damage combo, it was nerfed because it was a 14 damage minimum (aside from taunt but really they didn't give a fuck). It went to 22 with an innervate or Russian tick. It scaled on board with even a 1/1 adding three more damage (and druid doesn't run 1/1's). It was incredibly oppressive in that as soon as 9 rolled around you had to count health and damage every turn. No class was safe from combo aside from warrior (which was also its worst match-up).

Comparing Grom to combo is so fucking gross because Grom does not scale. 4 damage on board did not become 20 and was not thrown over 3+ bodies.
 

phil

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Not only does Grom not scale but it's also a single hit of damage which means it's completely stopped by any Taunt, whereas druid combo could crash some stuff into the taunts and still hit face with other stuff which made it so much harder to play round. With Grom you can hide behind whatever taunt you have and be absolutely certain you are not dying to Grom that turn - with druid combo you need to make sure your health and the health of your taunts are above 14.

I'm also pretty sure warrior wasn't its worst matchup because it was so easy to put pressure on then get a Thaurissan tick on 2 savage roars at which point you probably had enough damage if you'd been playing good curve minions all game. I know warrior adapted to beat druid later on when they started playing Deathlords and stuff but traditionally I remember druid being a bad matchup for control warrior. Patron warrior normally beat druid, but that's not because they were safe from combo.
 

Mr.E

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Yeah I'm not gonna get into it about Druid combo but suffice to say I think it's completely fair game that you get punished harder for letting Druid have the board with it. It's not like letting a Malygos stick to the board for a turn and having your opponent "untap" with it is any better (now or then), so don't fall into Blizzard's trap of condemning certain methods of dealing-too-much-burst but not others. They nerfed the wrong part of the combo anyway...
Roar could've just went to 4-5 mana (even at five mana it's not necessarily inferior to Bloodlust due to Hero attack, not that there aren't plenty of examples of inferior cards already), and if you really want FoN to seven mana to force Druid to Innervate or Thaurissan tick (so it's not a two-card combo). Three-mana Roar still does dirty things if your big token generator sticks a board that isn't immediately answered. FoN was a cool and unique card that was extremely fair and balanced for what it used to do, now it's lame and similar to other cards. And fairly weak.

I never liked the Control Warrior matchup as a regular Druid player, mostly predicated on when they played Gorehowl because that card was almost as much of a win rate swing as when The Black Knight periodically comes back into vogue.
 
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Matthew

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Sorry for the bit of confusion at the end of that post, Druid destroyed Warrior, the only way Warrior won was by getting all the armor.

If you wanted a deck that beat Druid it would be tempo Mage.
 

Matthew

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I also want to elaborate on what Mr.E said and say that I think the idea of combo was fine. Overall, as it was, it was completely ridiculous because it scaled so well, on the other hand it added a cool element.

How I would have changed it is FoN down to five and Force up to four. The combo is still there but it no longer needs just one Innervate for double. That would have been fine in my eyes
 
if anyone was excited for the possibility of less shaman, don't get your hopes up. it's still fucking nuts :pirate: why didn't they nerf totem golem
 

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