Actually all you need is just to phaze those things out, and if they are that weak against Ancient power, we know they won't switch in very often.......
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Pokémon Heatran
- Thread starter Ryuuki
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Actually all you need is just to phaze those things out, and if they are that weak against Ancient power, we know they won't switch in very often.......
Talonflame has Taunt, Charizard has Focus Blast or Earthquake depending on which stone and can OHKO you easily. Volcarona is vulnerable to Heatran anyways, but it's an option if you don't feel like Toxic stalling.
The point is, TF is already suffering from severe 4mss and don't really need to be offensively checked as it was KNOWN to take too much passive damage, and personally I don't really think the zards are for Heatran to go against, consider how they outspeed you anyway. Of course if you are running CF set than you may stand a chance, but otherwise a 60BP move really requires a second thought, it would be much nicer if it gets power gem, but I guess we may well conclude it doesn't at this stage.
Heatran is a all-time favorite of mine, I almost always slap it on my teams. When I saw it in Gen 4 for the first time, mfw "I MUST HAVE IT!!!!!" The fav kind of set that I run is a Sunny Day Offensive TrapperTran set, which consists of this:
Heatran @ Shed Shell
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Trait: Flash Fire
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Sunny Day
Magma Storm for the typical trapping, the SunnyBeam combo worked really well for me in Gen 5, as someone would bring in defensive Politoed in as I'd Sunny Day. Shed Shell is for the pesky Dugtrio's whenever they switch it in on Heatran. The speed investment allows me be faster than defensive Gliscor, and hit it with a nasty Hp Ice (DNite's too on the predicted DD.)
Heatran @ Shed Shell
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Trait: Flash Fire
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Sunny Day
Magma Storm for the typical trapping, the SunnyBeam combo worked really well for me in Gen 5, as someone would bring in defensive Politoed in as I'd Sunny Day. Shed Shell is for the pesky Dugtrio's whenever they switch it in on Heatran. The speed investment allows me be faster than defensive Gliscor, and hit it with a nasty Hp Ice (DNite's too on the predicted DD.)
Is it true that Magma Storm's Base Power has been lowered to 100?
confirmed, I think I have seen the picture somewhere, also, no buff in accuracy.
I disagree. Don't forget that Magma Storm got a significant buff, in that it now does 1/8 passive damage each turn. Combine this with SR and Protect, and you can see that everything neutral to SR that switches into Magma Storm loses 37.5% of its life (3/8) without factoring in the immediate damage from Magma Storm (2 turns of passive from Magma Storm + SR damage = 1/8 + 1/8 +1/8), which even after Lefties results to a 25% health lost by just passive damage. Not only this, but by trapping the opponent you are guranteed to bring in a check/counter to his Pokemon without fearing a double switch, which is obviously very advantageous. 1/8 of max life is often more damage than the 20 BP that Magma Storm lost in the transition to 6th gen. The only real downer of Magma Storm is its accuracy, but on a bulky set with Lefties and Protect you can usually afford to miss, and 75% is not that terrible anyway.
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I thought I was the only one that found TormentStormTran was a godsend of annoyance...at least I'm not the only one. I've used the TormenTran set to some serious success, especially after I Taunt/Volt Switch from Thundurus-I and cripple a significant threat to my team. Heatran is just one of those Pokemon that has always been good and shows no signs of weakening.
Back in BW2, I ran Stealth Rock+3 Attacks Air Balloon Heatran. To some extent, it had just the right bulk, power, and scare to allow set up. In some cases, Stealth Rock+Roar+Other moves I'm too lazy to list Leftovers Heatran is quite the annoyance.
here are some speed stats for ErupTran users:
Max speed Eruptran (w/ scarf): 227 (340)
min speed Eruptran (w/ iron ball, etc.) 143 (71/72?)
Max speed quiet (252- Speed) Heatran speed ties with positive base 54, neutral base 64 and, of course, negative base 77 (I think Heatran's the only base 77?).
Max speed quiet scarfed Heatran outspeeds/speed ties:
unboosted positive base 105s (outspeeds)
unboosted neutral base 120s (outspeeds)
+1 positive base 54s (ties)
+1 neutral base 64s (ties)
+2 Postive base 27s (outspeeds)
+2 neutral base 35s (outspeeds)
Min speed Heatran stuff (for trick room users):
quiet heatran can reach all numbers 143~227, but some numbers appear twice:
Number (2nd possible EVs+IV total)
Max speed Eruptran (w/ scarf): 227 (340)
min speed Eruptran (w/ iron ball, etc.) 143 (71/72?)
Max speed quiet (252- Speed) Heatran speed ties with positive base 54, neutral base 64 and, of course, negative base 77 (I think Heatran's the only base 77?).
Max speed quiet scarfed Heatran outspeeds/speed ties:
unboosted positive base 105s (outspeeds)
unboosted neutral base 120s (outspeeds)
+1 positive base 54s (ties)
+1 neutral base 64s (ties)
+2 Postive base 27s (outspeeds)
+2 neutral base 35s (outspeeds)
Min speed Heatran stuff (for trick room users):
Faster means those pokemon would be outsped in trick room, also (iron ball stats)
I will ignore some combinations.
Faster Pokemon:
uninvested (0 EV, 31 Speed IVs) neutral base 54s (126)
uninvested negative base 62s (142)
min speed neutral base 70s (142)
min speed negative base 78s (158)
Speed Ties:
uninvested neutral with iron ball base 125s
uninvested negative with iron ball base 141s
min speed neutral base 69s (141)
min speed negative base 77s (157)
Slower pokemon:
uninvested base 53s (124)
min speed neutral base 68s (140)
min speed negative base 76s (156)
I will ignore some combinations.
Faster Pokemon:
uninvested (0 EV, 31 Speed IVs) neutral base 54s (126)
uninvested negative base 62s (142)
min speed neutral base 70s (142)
min speed negative base 78s (158)
Speed Ties:
uninvested neutral with iron ball base 125s
uninvested negative with iron ball base 141s
min speed neutral base 69s (141)
min speed negative base 77s (157)
Slower pokemon:
uninvested base 53s (124)
min speed neutral base 68s (140)
min speed negative base 76s (156)
quiet heatran can reach all numbers 143~227, but some numbers appear twice:
Number (2nd possible EVs+IV total)
144 (2)
153 (12)
162 (22)
171 (32)
180 (42)
189 (52)
198 (62)
207 (72)
216 (82)
225 (92)
153 (12)
162 (22)
171 (32)
180 (42)
189 (52)
198 (62)
207 (72)
216 (82)
225 (92)
Rather then comparing it to +2 35 base speed pokemon, let's compare it to some relevant threats.
Maximum speed Garchomp hits 333 speed. Outsped by maximum speed ScarTran.
Terrakion hits 346 speed. This one outspeeds ScarfTran.
It also barely outruns Zoroark and Mienshao, but those are hardly seen.
So, it's fast enough to outpace a Garchomp, but it can't really can't outspeed any common threat faster then that. I think you're probably better off using something faster as a sweeper.
Maximum speed Garchomp hits 333 speed. Outsped by maximum speed ScarTran.
Terrakion hits 346 speed. This one outspeeds ScarfTran.
It also barely outruns Zoroark and Mienshao, but those are hardly seen.
So, it's fast enough to outpace a Garchomp, but it can't really can't outspeed any common threat faster then that. I think you're probably better off using something faster as a sweeper.
I may have missed this throughout all the comments, but I have to say the Flame Charge on Heatran is an EXTREMELY under-appreciated threat. Simply due to the sheer number of switches and resistances Heatran has, he can switch in, force the switch, and proceed to get his Speed up to the same level as a Choice Scarf variant while retaining the ability to switch moves. A set with Flame Charge is really great when you already have a stealth rocker on your team so that Heatran gets the free moveslot.
Nope no one's ever tried that
I've been running Magma Storm TormentTran since 5th gen; in the transition to XY it got a buffed Magma Storm, but it also lost permanent Sand support which was a massive help to it. In addition, RestTalk being slightly more viable than before, the popularity of Clerics, and lack of Dark/Ghost resistances have all hurt him. It's definitely a decent set, but in general I prefer a standard SpDef SR Tran with Magma Storm as the primary STAB option (preventing double switching is that good).
Heatran doesn't really wall Zard-Y well at all since it's not uncommon for it to carry EQ. It matches up well against variants that only carry Focus Blast though. It doesn't particularly need HP Rock/Ancient power to deal with most variants of Talonflame or Zard-Y. A combination of Toxic and Roar (which are quite standard on Sp. Def Heatran regardless) deals with anything but Taunt Roost variants of Talonflame, for example, and that version is pretty rare first off, and secondly has no room for shit like WoW or Substitute and probably even U-turn if it wants to run Flare Blitz meaning that it can't handle Lando-T, Ttar or Rotom-W well.
HP Rock and AncientPower are underestimated because most people undervalue countering Talonflame as opposed to checking it. The value of killing Talonflame with Heatran can have enormous future rewards throughout the course of the match. If you have a Genesect at 40%, a Conkeldurr, or Mega Venusaur, you can maintain momentum since you do have to switch out as you killed the revenge killer. Using those moves against Talonflame is not niche application due to the prevalence of Talonflame and both the offensive and defensive pressure it can apply against teams.
Those two moves are the only moves that can potentially KO Talonflame if it chooses to stay in. The first step is to keep Stealth Rock up, not to be trigger happy, since it can avoid the KO from AncientPower by Roosting. If you want to avoid being Roost stalled or Sub-stalled, then HP Rock is suggested.
For instance, using Roar is risky on Heatran (but it is a powerful tool against Talonflame and in general). If your opponent has an Excadrill or Starmie (or a fighting or Earthquake user) on their team, then Roar may be suboptimal as you can lose momentum by being forced out and possibly giving them a turn to Rapid Spin, but it is quite good if you correctly predict a manual switch or U-turn and/or if they have something like a Dragonite with an unbroken Multiscale.
Those two moves are the only moves that can potentially KO Talonflame if it chooses to stay in. The first step is to keep Stealth Rock up, not to be trigger happy, since it can avoid the KO from AncientPower by Roosting. If you want to avoid being Roost stalled or Sub-stalled, then HP Rock is suggested.
For instance, using Roar is risky on Heatran (but it is a powerful tool against Talonflame and in general). If your opponent has an Excadrill or Starmie (or a fighting or Earthquake user) on their team, then Roar may be suboptimal as you can lose momentum by being forced out and possibly giving them a turn to Rapid Spin, but it is quite good if you correctly predict a manual switch or U-turn and/or if they have something like a Dragonite with an unbroken Multiscale.
I don't meant to imply that Ancient Power/HP Rock don't have their uses (they undoubtedly improve the Talonflame, ZardY, Moltres and Volcarona matchups significantly), but Heatran can easily still outright counter these mons (barring ZardY against which, Ancient Power/HP Rock is undoubtedly superior) with Toxic+Roar, which is in general, a more effective use of the moveslot outside of these matchups.
I agree.
It all depends on the context of one's teams though. If you have few bulky Pokemon outside of Heatran that can withstand Talonflame's assaults (or an ExtremeSpeed user) and a lot of Pokemon weak to Talonflame, then HP Rock/AncientPower is probably the superior option; if you do have an ExtremeSpeed user, you do need to get it in safely though. Using Toxic is not optimal because it would just switch out, and the hazards can later be removed with a Defogger and Spinner (or at worse be used as death fodder). The user of Talonflame has a Kamikaze mentality and would likely kill itself with Brave Bird recoil later on as it severely damages or kills one of your important Pokemon, thus Toxic stalling only discourages it from staying in on Heatran by trying to wear it down, or trying to boost, and the Talonflame user judges it has more potential value later in the match.
On a similar note, running Focus Punch on Gengar was not absurd, but one reason it was justified is to the prevalence, then, of Skarmbliss cores. Now, it is mostly a deadweight (also due to its access to a Special Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, and one has to sacrifice some Special Attack and Speed EVs to retain its efficacy against SkarmBlissey, and regarding Speed the 100-110 tier is more crowded now than in OU Gen 3, although less so than Gen 5). I don't know how prevalent Blissey was in Gen 3, but if it rivals Talonflame's current usage, then HP Rock on Heatran can be worth it in the current metagame.
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Just to add to the above post regarding Gen 3 Blissey, it was incredibly common, more so in the earlier days of Gen 3 from my own experiences. Type of move determing which attack stat was used meant specially bulky normal types did not have any weaknesses at all from the special side, and coupled with the ability to remove status made the pink blob the premier special wall for anyone who wanted to play more defensively.
Snorlax was the only thing that could act as a special wall that rivaled Blissey's usage, and he was primarily used if you needed something that actually was able to dish out damage as well.
Snorlax was the only thing that could act as a special wall that rivaled Blissey's usage, and he was primarily used if you needed something that actually was able to dish out damage as well.
Wait, lowered to 100? Ow.
Heatran @Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 112 HP/ 160 SpA/ 236 Spe
Modest Nature
-Overheat
-Earth Power
-Dragon Pulse
-Flamethrower
This set allows Hetran to outspeed a lot of mons, and also allows you to hit dragon types, like goodra and garchomp, that would wall you otherwise.
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 112 HP/ 160 SpA/ 236 Spe
Modest Nature
-Overheat
-Earth Power
-Dragon Pulse
-Flamethrower
This set allows Hetran to outspeed a lot of mons, and also allows you to hit dragon types, like goodra and garchomp, that would wall you otherwise.
Is:
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- AncientPower
the best/most common specs set now? I think AncientPower is necessary against all Talonflame and Charizard switchins, but it isn't mentioned in the set in the OP.
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- AncientPower
the best/most common specs set now? I think AncientPower is necessary against all Talonflame and Charizard switchins, but it isn't mentioned in the set in the OP.
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