Hidden Power Legends IV/nature combinations

[the_artic_one]

Eggs are a bit more complicated but it's been figured out.


@Chris:
Even without them proving it to you exactly, it's more accurate to the real metagame for unbreedables to have worse IV's than bred pokes. They would even be justified in just restricting the IV total arbitrarily on legends. Go look through the wifi board and you'll see a couple perfect 31 bred pokes but not a single perfect 31 legend.

 

[c l e a r]

honestly, the best legend I got is the Lugia I caught a year ago I mentioned earlier, too bad it's with tangerine now...

EDIT: So, answer me this, so you guys CAN see into if a 31 across the board baby is hacked or not?

 

[the_artic_one]

No, it's perfectly possible.

 

[X-Act]

You know what's more scary then undetectable hacks? Having a random group of people say "hey there's a restriction here that we're gonig to force you to use, but we can't tell you why it exists or how it work or prove our hypothesis to you because then breeders will feel bad".

If they aren't going to show us proof, they should at least not force it on Shoddy.

A proof? Okay.

When you encounter a wild Pokemon in ADV or DP, a 32-bit number is created at random. From this number, the IVs and Nature, among other things, of the Pokemon are extracted.

Let's calculate how many distinct Pokemon are there if we consider just IVs and Nature. There are 25 natures and each IV can be one of 32 different possibilities, so there are 25 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 = 26,843,545,600 different IV combinations + natures.

Now, a 32-bit number has 2^32 different possibilities, or 4,294,967,296. This means that, out of the 26,843,545,600 different combinations of IVs + natures, 'only' 4,294,967,296, or exactly 16%, of them are possible.

Proved.

 

[tsanth]

Now, a 32-bit number has 2^32 different possibilities, or 4,294,967,296. This means that, out of the 26,843,545,600 different combinations of IVs + natures, 'only' 4,294,967,296, or exactly 16%, of them are possible.

It was my understanding that you have 4,294,967,296 different PVs, but for each PV, you have 3 possible IV sets. Given that, aren't there 3*(2^32) == 12,884,901,888 possible PV-IV sets?

 

[c l e a r]

A proof? Okay.

When you encounter a wild Pokemon in ADV or DP, a 32-bit number is created at random. From this number, the IVs and Nature, among other things, of the Pokemon are extracted.

Let's calculate how many distinct Pokemon are there if we consider just IVs and Nature. There are 25 natures and each IV can be one of 32 different possibilities, so there are 25 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 = 26,843,545,600 different IV combinations + natures.

Now, a 32-bit number has 2^32 different possibilities, or 4,294,967,296. This means that, out of the 26,843,545,600 different combinations of IVs + natures, 'only' 4,294,967,296, or exactly 16%, of them are possible.

Proved.

that is so simple that it's funny, so you guys are figuring out which of these combinations are "possible", and hence, event Pokemon are wild now cause you guys have no idea how their RNGs work.

right?

 

[Scrubs]

Well I have no idea what half the people said in this thread but, why take it away from Shoddy? Its just Shoddy, it doesn't matter if you can't get a 31/31/31/31/31/31 legend. That you can only 'really' get a 31/30/31/31/31/31 instead.

 

[cim]

A proof? Okay.

When you encounter a wild Pokemon in ADV or DP, a 32-bit number is created at random. From this number, the IVs and Nature, among other things, of the Pokemon are extracted.

Let's calculate how many distinct Pokemon are there if we consider just IVs and Nature. There are 25 natures and each IV can be one of 32 different possibilities, so there are 25 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 x 32 = 26,843,545,600 different IV combinations + natures.

Now, a 32-bit number has 2^32 different possibilities, or 4,294,967,296. This means that, out of the 26,843,545,600 different combinations of IVs + natures, 'only' 4,294,967,296, or exactly 16%, of them are possible.

Proved.

That's all I think i needed... except for one thing that's been bugging me. What about the Synchronize trick? For those legendaries, isn't there a 50% chance of the 25 value being overwritten? That being said, if you use the synchronise trick with the legendaries that it works for, all IVs are possible because 2^32 > 32^6. Then again, you almost certainly knew that (If you didn't, I'd be very afraid), but that doesn't appear to be implemented into Shoddy. For example, you can catch Suicune with the Synch trick in emerald I think, but there are still IV restrictions on him. I think. So... yeah.

I still wish this weren't, like, sensitive data so it could be more open, but that's all the proof I need for the non-Syncable legendaries.

 

[c l e a r]

only non synchs are Cresselia, Mespirit, Event only Legends (not reproduced by Wild Battle), any legend in ADV cannot be synched.

 

[cim]

only non synchs are Cresselia, Mespirit, Event only Legends (not reproduced by Wild Battle), any legend in ADV cannot be synched.

I'm not positive on this, but I do know that you can synch in Emerald since that's one way of getting Dittos of the right nature (through Emerald). So would the Emerald legends (which would include Mew, Lugia, Ho-oh, Deoxys due to ticket right?) be synchable? If so, then assuming I'm right and that any IV combo is possible with the Synchronise trick, shouldn't these be exempted (along with all the DP legends)? I know for a fact that Deoxys-S isn't exempted in Shoddy, maybe he should be.

So, assuming my ridiculously crappy knowledge is right and that the Synch trick makes all IV combos possible, then the exempted list would be as follows: Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Lati@s, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Deoxys, Uxie, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Darkrai, Phione (duh), Regigigas, Heatran, Shaymin, Arceus. That's assuming I'm right.

Since the cat/dog trio in Emerald are runners, I'm even less sure if the Synch trick would work on them, but if it does then they should be exempt too under my logic.

 

[c l e a r]

emerald's synch did not work on legends as I was told.

 

[Syberia]

Synchronize does not "overwrite" the nature of a pokemon. Instead, it just forces the game to scroll through the list of PIDs it would normally use until it finds one that produces the desired nature, and it it used. Nothing is "overwritten."

You cannot catch Suicune in Emerald. It is only obtainable in Colosseum, where Synchronize does not work.

 

[c l e a r]

Synchronize does not "overwrite" the nature of a pokemon. Instead, it just forces the game to scroll through the list of PIDs it would normally use until it finds one that produces the desired nature, and it it used. Nothing is "overwritten."

You cannot catch Suicune in Emerald. It is only obtainable in Colosseum, where Synchronize does not work.

right, almost forgot about teh dogs.

 

[cim]

Damn, so it re-rolls the PID until the nature is right? That's not fun. Oh well... Also, I thought if you beat one of frlge (one of those) with a starter you could find raikou, entei, or suicune or something.

 

[the_artic_one]

Those have bugged IV's that always total less than 10 or so.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

A proof? Okay.

...

Proved.

Hurrah for the Pigeonhole Principle! Fun fact: if you sort an infinite number of pigeons into a finite number of pigeonholes, at least one hole must contain an infinite number of pigeons!

Ahem. Sorry. I don't get to use my math much at my job. Apologies for the geeking out.

Masked Nitpicker...away!

 

[Toothache]

Damn, so it re-rolls the PID until the nature is right? That's not fun. Oh well... Also, I thought if you beat one of frlge (one of those) with a starter you could find raikou, entei, or suicune or something.

Except the FR/LG dogs have a glitch that makes 4 of the 6 IV values have 0 IV

 

[Raikou]

This is absolutely pointless. You're trying to mimic "realism" by adjusting the IVs of HP legends by 1 or 2 points, but it's neither realistic (as real HP legends have far worse stats) nor will it impact the battle sim experience in any noticable way. It's both frivolous, and unfortunate for the people who would rather play wifi. There's a reason people who know this algorithm keep it secret.

Not to mention you're going to have to crack event Pokemon generation for both advance and d/p and XD/Colosseum, none of which has been done yet. Otherwise what's the point of making this "accurate" for a certain subset of legendaries while ignoring the rest?

 

[Cathy]

it's neither realistic (as real HP legends have far worse stats)

There is a difference between IVs that are unlikely to obtain and ones that are impossible to obtain.

It's a bit strange to be doing this now, I agree. I would have preferred to have done it from the start. It is just as important as the IV stat max being 31 rather than, say, 30, so I would have liked to have had it from the start. I think the real mystery here is why people before now were not concerned that many theoretical analyses contained illegal pokemon. For example, the Smogon analysis for Heatran has a Hidden Power Ice set, and without the IVs given on the first page, your Heatran would be illegal.

And we are considering some sort of event-related ban. Any information on other games is of course welcome.

 

[Raikou]

I know plenty about PID/IV combinations. What I don't get is why it matters in a battle sim, unless you're planning to add a capture/breed/raise feature to shoddy to mimic the rest of the Pokemon game. If people are concerned with having real IV Pokemon, they simply play on a cart- people playing shoddy are not concerned with whether their fake Heatran has a 30 or a 31 in one stat. It's a battle sim, not a sim of the whole Pokemon game.

What IV combos are possible have no bearing on a battle simulator at all, since the difference is often a negligible 1 IV point. It is a waste of time. Why not spend that time fixing bugs or illegal movesets that actually do impact competitive play?

And an event related ban means no Jirachi, Celebi, Manaphy, Darkrai or in the future, Arceus, as they are event obtainable only. So these arbitrary bannings restrict the metagame for no purpose at all but to make people scratch their heads. I thought the current line of thought was to unban as much as possible, not the opposite.

 

[c l e a r]

What is possible to be real has no bearing on a battle simulator at all, rather it is a waste of time. Why not spend that time fixing bugs or illegal movesets that actually do impact competitve play?

An event related ban means no Jirachi, Celebi, Manaphy, Darkrai or in the future, Arceus, as they are event obtainable only, which seems equally silly.

agreed, why don't you guys implement Simple or fix the god damn U-turn instead of sprinting off into a spiky road before you got your shoes on?

 

[Scrubs]

This is absolutely pointless. You're trying to mimic "realism" by adjusting the IVs of HP legends by 1 or 2 points, but it's neither realistic (as real HP legends have far worse stats) nor will it impact the battle sim experience in any noticable way. It's both frivolous, and unfortunate for the people who would rather play wifi. There's a reason people who know this algorithm keep it secret.

Not to mention you're going to have to crack event Pokemon generation for both advance and d/p and XD/Colosseum, none of which has been done yet. Otherwise what's the point of making this "accurate" for a certain subset of legendaries while ignoring the rest?

But it's not "your" Heatran anyway, it's on a battle sim, not a cart. If people are concerned with having real Pokemon, they simply play on a cart- people playing shoddy are not concerned with whether their fake Heatran has a 30 or a 31 in one stat. It's a battle sim, not a sim of the whole Pokemon game.

What is possible to be real has no bearing on a battle simulator at all, rather it is a waste of time. Why not spend that time fixing bugs or illegal movesets that actually do impact competitive play?

An event related ban means no Jirachi, Celebi, Manaphy, Darkrai or in the future, Arceus, as they are event obtainable only. So these arbitrary bannings restrict the metagame for no purpose at all but to make people scratch their heads.

Thats the ONLY thing that has made since to me. Greats points and such.

 

[Cathy]

Why not spend that time fixing bugs or illegal movesets that actually do impact competitive play?

Actually, if you want to tell me what is important, this is more important than illegal movesets. When somebody uses an illegal moveset, you can immediately see and they lose for all intents and purposes (if it's a tournament). On the contrary, you can't tell if somebody has illegal IVs.

As for your interpretation of what I said about events, I said an "some sort of event-related ban" which was designed to be a specifically vague phrase, because the details have not been discussed yet.

And I will decide what I want to work on. If you think something is more important, then you are free to help. I have been telling people that they are free to help since Shoddy Battle was released and so far only two people (dragontamer and AA) have contributed code other than bearzly or me.

Illegal IVs happen to have become a matter of concern because we are planning on starting an Ubers ladder very soon, and an Ubers team contains many legendary pokemon.

[quote="Clear']why don't you guys implement Simple[/quote]

Simple was implemented a month ago. But thanks for your suggestion.

 

[the_artic_one]

I'd help if I didn't hate Java and fail at Eclipse.

 

[Raikou]

Actually, if you want to tell me what is important, this is more important than illegal movesets. When somebody uses an illegal moveset, you can immediately see and they lose for all intents and purposes (if it's a tournament). On the contrary, you can't tell if somebody has illegal IVs.

Most shoddy players will not give 2 shits if Heatran has a 30 or a 31 in his attack stat. They know he has 31's everywhere else, as shoddy is an idealized version of Pokemon. If you don't play in game you probably don't know (or care) about PID/IV anyway, but people interested in ripping off actual wifi players in-game will be at the edge of their seats. You are catering to the latter; the former just wants to get rid of Belly Drum/Aqua Jet Azumarill, etc. That has more impact on competitive play than 1 IV point by an order of magnitude.

As for your interpretation of what I said about events, I said an "some sort of event-related ban" which was designed to be a specifically vague phrase, because the details have not been discussed yet.

The reason it's vague is because it will be arbitrary no matter which way you implement it. There are entire Pokemon that are event-only, moves which are event-only, and combinations of the two. Furthermore there is no exact list of events and event moves to go by, and no one has cracked event generation. Ban none or ban all or it will be as silly (and hard to enforce in-game) as banning brightpowder on Garchomp but allowing everything else to use it.

And I will decide what I want to work on. If you think something is more important, then you are free to help. I have been telling people that they are free to help since Shoddy Battle was released and so far only one person (dragontamer -- thanks for your bug fix ;)) has contributed code other than bearzly or me.

I'm just making you aware that you're being a bit irrational by picking splinters out of your eye when there's a plank in the other. When people play battle sims, this stuff does not matter. It matters for in game if you're concerned with people ripping you off with Pokesav, so you're trading the integrity of wifi battling just to adjust shoddy IV's by one or two points. A very marginal gain for one group in exchange for a very large risk to the other.