Metagame Hidden Type

Taken over from The Immortal


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What is Hidden Type?
The Pokémon's Hidden Power type will be added to its type(s), if it does not have that type. For example: if Heatran has the IVs for Hidden Power Flying, its typing becomes Fire/Steel/Flying and if Chansey has the IVs for Hidden Power Ghost, its typing becomes Normal/Ghost. However, if Dragonite has the IVs for Hidden Power Flying, its typing remains Dragon/Flying. This means that if you do not change the IVs, Dark type will be added by default and if you do not want a type to be added, the IVs should be set for Hidden Power to be one of the Pokémon's types.

How does it work with Mega Evolution?
It works the same way. Mega Pinsir with the IVs for Hidden Power Ground will become Bug/Flying/Ground.

How does it work with Color Change, Conversion and Protean?
They remove all of the Pokemon's types, including hidden. For example: Protean Greninja with the typing Water/Dark/Grass will become only Water-type if it uses Hydro Pump.

How does it work with Camouflage and Soak?
The Pokémon loses all of its types, including hidden, and becomes Normal or Water respectively.

How does it work with Transform and Imposter?
The hidden type is not copied.

How does it work with Reflect Type?
The hidden type is copied.

How do Forest's Curse and Trick Or Treat work?
They replace the Pokémon's third type.

Standard OU clauses apply.

Bug (31/30/30/31/30/31)
Dark (31/31/31/31/31/31)
Dragon (31/31/30/31/31/31
Electric (31/31/31/30/31/31)
Fighting (31/31/30/30/30/30)
Fire (31/31/30/30/31/30)
Flying (30/30/30/30/30/31)
Ghost (31/31/30/31/30/31)
Grass (31/31/30/30/31/31)
Ground (31/31/31/30/30/31)
Ice (30/31/30/31/31/31)
Poison (31/31/30/30/30/31)
Psychic (31/31/30/31/31/30)
Rock (31/31/30/31/30/30)
Steel (31/31/31/31/30/31)
Water (31/30/30/30/31/31)

  • Playable on ROM via challenge
 
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SAMPLE TEAMS
Rules for Posting:
  • Be sure to test the team you post. It doesn't have too be too much because this doesn't have a ladder, but this shouldn't be something you haven't tried
  • Be sure this team is easy to pick up on and newer players can still use it and learn. Your team could be amazing, the best ever, but if it's too hard to play with unless you're experienced, it's not going to be allowed.
  • Posting replays also will help people see how to play with your team (not required, but is recommended.)
  • Follow the proper format when posting.
Format for posting:

Playstyle (offense, stall, etc)
Team export (in hide tags)
Pokemon Types: (Grass Manaphy, etc)
Short description on how the team works.

Sample Teams:
-Balance feat. (Steel Tapu Lele, Water Clefable, Steel Dragonite, Grass Heatran, Water Gliscor, Ground Mega Gyarados)
-
Offense feat. (Grass Tapu Lele, Water Mega Scizor, Steel Greninja, Rock Landorus-T, Fire Magnezone, Fire Tangrowth)
-Balance feat. (Water Mega Venusaur, Ghost Chansey, Water Clefable, Grass Keldeo, Flying Heatran, Dragon Skarmory)
-Stall feat. (Flying Quagsire, Steel Amoongus, Ground Togekiss, Steel Mega Sableye, Dragon Skarmory, Ghost Chansey)
 
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Woo, shiny new gen 7 thread. Maybe now someone else will finally play hidden type
Some mechanics queries:
1. If we have hidden power in the moveset, can we utilize the bottle cap feature (i.e. can we have max spe HP fire pokes)?
2. How difficult would it be to have the hidden powers just stay, so that you can have max IVs even without that in your moveset?
3. Using reflect type/Imposter don't affect your hidden type, but do you keep yours? Ei, would a hp dragon ditto -> Clefable be dragon/Fairy?
4. For clarification: Is Conversion/conversion 2 the same as protean, or can we have electric/ice porygon-Z?

Of the new Pokémon, not many seem all that promising. Still, there's some hope for cool sets in gen 7:
  • Fighting Kartana. This thing seems absolutely amazing, fixing most of Kartana's coverage issues in one fell swoop. While flyers are still an issue, it can still handle those, while Pokémon like Skarmory don't wall it (and Z-move sets become much stronger).
  • Poison Pheromosa. Unlike ice, this doesn't leave it weak to rocks, and poison Jab hits fairies hard and flyers neutrally. some things like Toxapex still wall, but it's coverage is a lot better with the extra power. The ability to remove toxic spikes is also handily, as is the ability to pivot in on toxic. While random ghosts make it's job harder, it's still quite dangerous.
  • Dragon or Flying Magearna. Like Klefki last gen, the typing is far too good to pass up, but unlike Klefki it has actual recovery (pain split), good bulk, and great offensive prowess. I'm not sure which will be more popular, but definitally one of the two will be reasonably common
  • Genesect. While it was around last gen, it was banned, and I'm looking forward to trying it. Ice, fire, ground, electric... I'm not sure what the best set will be, but the options are pretty diverse.
  • Tapu Lele. It's type is already really good, but I'm sure steel or something can spruce it up. Meanwhile, it's an S-rank OU threat and A potent team support option.
  • Hoopa-U can become even harder to switch into by adding a stab to its specs set, or have a stronger scarf set, or even just pivot into hazards and set up with steel. Ghost Chansey is pretty much not an option with it around, and all the other options aren't very good. Stall does get Magearna and Ground Mandibuzz, but the former is guessing games with type and the latter very niche otherwise.
  • Greninja vs Ash Greninja--hidden type removes many of the advantages of the protean force, and the latter is better in standard anyway, so Ash Greninja is probably the better bet. Ice for Ice Beam, Poison for fairies and stall, bug for a uturn set...
  • Steel Zygarde and Zygarde 10 seem really good. Tarrows is still only resisted by the mediocre Bug and Grass, while outrage smacks most of those. Dragon Dance can make them sweepers, and since they come in on rocks freely hitting and running to wear things down should be easy. The lack of power is a problem, but not an insurmountable one.
  • Toxapex could easily slot in another type. If nothing else, dark would help vs MMeta and Manaphy, but it's capable of so much more. Regen on that great of a typing is a godsend for stall, which certainly doesn't lack for other options either. I can see this kind of playstyle being stable after most of the broken mons Like Hoopa-U get banned, but until then it'll face quite some trouble.
  • While steel dragonite won't be as good as the start of last gen, that's a high bar to clear. The typing is great as ever, and Multiscale is no less amazing than it ever was. The drop in standard checks like Heatran due to Zydog will also help, as will the ability of Z-Move dugtrio to remove most given sets.
  • Get Clefable, check. Profit, check. While twave sets are much worse, it can still check half the metagame with its unaware sets, while the ability to bypass checks like Heatran with water or Hoopa-U with steel or dark is quite simply amazing, and should not be underestimated in value. While no one set is anywhere near as good as the last gen, the sheer number allows it to stay unpredictable and customizable.


One other thing that seems likely is coverage+Z-moves to act as a lure. For instance, if you want to lure Heatran for a dragonite sweep, waterium-z water Garchomp can OHKO it even if physically defensive; darkium-Z dark Lucario can OHkO ghost Chansey after a nasty plot if rocks are up for a Manaphy sweep; the possibilities are endless, if 1 per team.


s/o to Chloe. for being a good user and putting up with me
InfernapeTropius11 for being a nerd.
Ransei for being cool
Funbot28 :D
OM room for being bad
n_v
Other OM peeps for being great (except Fardin who isn't)
 
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Dr. Phd. BJ

LuckE n BAD
Couple of things note.
  • Since silvally is legal, u can now have nearly every 2 type combo in the game (rip normal fairy) on one mon. Only issue would be finding a usable set on this thing. But that isn't the worst, especially since it has arceus nice balanced stats being 95 all-around.
  • All of the Island Guardians, the tapus. Tapu Bulu can utilize Fighting / Rock to help out against birds / Steels. Rock is better defensively, and u can use stone edge for stab. On the other hand, fighting provides stab superpower which will help vs steels. If used correctly, it might have low A high B rank potential.
  • Tapu Fini doesn't gain as much, but it can work with grass + grass knot or even ghost + shadow ball. Another option could be running Ground strictly for a defensive typing. Since it doesn't have as much of an attacking move pool to choose from, it doesn't gain as much. This thing could help as a defogger that beats flying Heatran, and sets up misty terrain because screw steel dnite. It will probably get some usage.
  • Tapu Koko probably gains the least. It will be forced to use grass with grass knot, flying for the ground immune and I guess if u run BB / roost, or bug cuz uturn and no more ground weakness. The tier has reliable and common switch-ins for the most part. Grass tran walls every special set, water Gliscor run can switch-in rather comfortably, then Ghost chansey. Steel / Dragons types like Dragon magearna also just wall, so tapu koko might have some struggles in the tier.
  • Tapu Lele gains the most I'd say. It can run steel as Quantum said, fighting with stab focus blast. Moonblast + Focus auto wins vs people who run mono dark ;) U could also see an Electric Tapu Lele with tbolt. Wisp 3 attacks sounds really nice. If I'm being honest, I think this is the best tapu in HT.
  • The meta will look similar to how it did in gen 7. Just because it is a new gen, doesn't mean steel dnite and flying / grass tran will go away. Expect a lot of the same with maybe a mon or two different on some teams. Only thing that will probably lose usage is dark Gengar, since it lost levitate.
  • Dhelmise can actually run stab + steelworker now. Anchor shot will be cool for trapping "switch-ins." Feels like every new mon is weak to tran :(
  • Celesteela might be better than skarm on some teams, but idk.
  • Guzzlord could run poison to lose its x4 fairy and fighting weakness while only adding ground. U can also use pjab I guess, but since there are steels everywhere and no hp fairy, it won't ever get used.
  • Lastly, rain might get some usage. Pelipper has reliable recovery and with ground HT, it has one of the best typings in the tier (same as water Gliscor). A couple of rain abusers like steel kingdra and Ash-Gren sound hella scary. There are probably more, but I'm too lazy to think.
 
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Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SpD
- Defog / Baton Pass
- Roost
- Spirit Shackle
- Haze / Swords Dance / Nasty Plot

Pair with Gliscor to have a cool hazard core that traps and eliminates Manaphy and annoys other Pokemon like Nasty Plot Thundurus-I or various stall 'mons(while conveniently checking every Tapu and most UBs). Get up rocks with Gliscor and use Decidueye to get wallbreakers in on passive mons or favorable 1v1's. If you want to be really ballsy or are packing something like Mantine to deal with Manaphy and Defog, you can run a Nasty Plot/Swords Dance + Baton Pass set. For example, giving +2/4/6 and a free switchin to Zard Y on something passive is a nice way to rip teams apart.
 
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I remember using Mantine really effectively last gen on my stall team that peaked the ladder, so I can only imagine that it'd be a really dominant threat this gen now that it has access to Roost and an extra 20 HP. Steel Mantine was a great blanket to a plethora of metagame threats, particularly Grass Manaphy, though Ground Mantine is also really strong thanks to removing that Electric weakness.

I'd also just like to take a moment to rejoice at the return of Dark Death Diggersby (DDD). Huge Power boosted STAB Foul Plays with Scarf <3

But anyway that's enough of last gen, I'm sure that most of what was great then will still be so now, so lets brainstorm about some new gen 7 mons.

Steel Vikavolt: Gains STAB Flash Cannon. Boasting the mono x4 Fire weakness of Bug/Steel types, with similar bulk to Scizor too, as well as Roost and a powerful slow Volt Switch. Though also having Electric and Flying resists alongside a Ground immunity to make that coveted typing even more awesome.

Steel Shiinotic: Another mono 4x Fire weakness. Unfortunately loses its Ground and Fighting resists in the trade off, but overall the new typing should give Shiinotic more room to abuse some of its awesome utility moves.

Grass (or Water) Palossand: Neutral to Water to abuse Water Compaction, turning it into what is actually a really strong ability. Unfortunately Palossand can't become Water Neutral without also picking up a 4x weakness to either Ice or Grass. Still, Grass Palossand gains STAB Giga Drain and immunity to Leech Seed, alongside some cool resistances like to EdgeQuake. Water Palossand may be a better option though due to more Resistances and less Weaknesses. Depends on what each set checks.

Ground Minior: STAB Edgequake never goes astray. Being SR Neutral and Immune to Thunder Wave may also prove to be real handy. Does pick up a couple 4x weaknesses though so maybe.

Dark (?) Alolan Marowak: Not sure what would best for Alolan Marowak, though I have a feeling that it's base typing and Lightning Rod is going to make it quite a useful pokemon to have around. If Marowak had access to Knock Off I'd probably go Dark without question, but unfortunately it doesn't benefit from any new STAB moves. Regardless 4 immunities and losing the Dark and Ghost weaknesses at the cost of nothing bar the Fairy resist sounds pretty bloody good.

Just what ever bumps into my head for the moment, though I'm interested in seeing how the meta pans out. Hopefully we can get a larger player base this gen.
 
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Dhelmise @ Life Orb
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot / Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake / Rock Slide / Swords Dance

Now that Dhelmise can take advantage of its ability by gaining Steel STAB, it can really begin to dish out massive amounts of damage, and it has decent enough coverage to make it a threat. Anchor Shot can deal massive amounts of damage while also trapping the opponent, which could give you the opportunity to set up on them with something like Swords Dance. Gyro Ball could also be run to take advantage of Dhelmise's very low speed. Power Whip and Shadow Claw are for some additional STAB, and the final moveslot can be decided based on what you decide to go for - Earthquake or Rock Slide for additional coverage options, or Swords Dance for some setup options. Still, the main niche of this set is to take full advantage of Steelworker.
 
Tried to make a couple of quick teams to test against a friend and encountered an interesting problem which may actually prove to be quite a big deal.

"Your team was rejected for the following reasons: - Kartana must have at least three perfect IVs because it's a legendary in gen 6."

Fighting:
  • 30/30/31/30/30/30
  • 31/31/30/30/30/30
  • 30/31/30/30/30/30
  • 31/30/30/30/30/30
  • 30/30/30/30/30/30

This actually makes it impossible for Kartana to run Fighting as a tertiary type for that STAB boost on Sacred Sword that it craves so heavily. And given the description I'd assume it applies to all Legendary pokemon, restricting them from running HT Fighting.

So my question is, is this either intended or avoidable? The Immortal

Anyhow, Hidden Type is actually really interesting this generation with the introduction of Z-moves. The potential to have 3 STABs as well as a Z-Move is really threatening and makes a lot of strong pokemon even more unpredictable. Not only may everything have an extra STAB that you need to scout for, they could also be carrying a 180 Base Power coverage move.
Here is a replay against my friend showcasing pretty well what I mean about Z-Moves adding another level of unpredictability, but more so showcasing the incredible power of fan favourite, Dark Death Diggersby.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7hiddentype-509929524
Lost my entire defensive backbone, half to a surprising Hawlucha set (and half to crits...), but DDD still shone through ridiculously well for me.

NOTE: I derped the other day, Alolan Marowak can learn Knock Off, so Dark Alolan Marowak actually is a really cool mon and may prove to be a decent threat depending on how the meta pans out.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Woo, shiny new gen 7 thread. Maybe now someone else will finally play hidden type
Some mechanics queries:
1. If we have hidden power in the moveset, can we utilize the bottle cap feature (i.e. can we have max spe HP fire pokes)?
2. How difficult would it be to have the hidden powers just stay, so that you can have max IVs even without that in your moveset?
3. Using reflect type/Imposter don't affect your hidden type, but do you keep yours? Ei, would a hp dragon ditto -> Clefable be dragon/Fairy?
4. For clarification: Is Conversion/conversion 2 the same as protean, or can we have electric/ice porygon-Z?
Bottle caps are not implemented on PS. If/When they are, where you can set both IVs and bottle caps in the teambuilder, then yes.

I don't understand 2.

Yes, you keep yours.

Should be same as Protean. I assume Conversions work like that with Trick-or-Trick, so it should apply here too.
 
Bottle caps are not implemented on PS. If/When they are, where you can set both IVs and bottle caps in the teambuilder, then yes.

I don't understand 2.

Yes, you keep yours.

Should be same as Protean. I assume Conversions work like that with Trick-or-Trick, so it should apply here too.
Bottle caps are implemented though, at least partially:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7godsandfollowers-57435
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/tMcxo

As far as hidden powers go, PS lets you help yours with max ivs as long as you have the move in your movesets. For HP fire and Fighting, this can be huge to not get outsped. I was wondering if it was possible to select<max iv hidden power>, and then have that stay your hidden type after deletion rather than resetting to dark.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Bottle caps are implemented though, at least partially:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7godsandfollowers-57435
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/tMcxo

As far as hidden powers go, PS lets you help yours with max ivs as long as you have the move in your movesets. For HP fire and Fighting, this can be huge to not get outsped. I was wondering if it was possible to select<max iv hidden power>, and then have that stay your hidden type after deletion rather than resetting to dark.
It's not a proper implementation. Zarel did a basic/quick implementation to just allow Hidden Powers with any IV. Like I said above, if we get the option to actually set bottle caps in the teambuilder, then you could do all that.
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
It's not a proper implementation. Zarel did a basic/quick implementation to just allow Hidden Powers with any IV. Like I said above, if we get the option to actually set bottle caps in the teambuilder, then you could do all that.
Is this really relevant to non-mods, though? Just set any 30 IV to 31 for your OM. I don't really think something that will never come up outside of mods (i.e. this isn't even relevant to AG or Hackmons) should be worth modding the teambuilder for.
 

Kalalokki

mood
is a member of the Site Staffis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Visual Media Head
Tried to make a couple of quick teams to test against a friend and encountered an interesting problem which may actually prove to be quite a big deal.

"Your team was rejected for the following reasons: - Kartana must have at least three perfect IVs because it's a legendary in gen 6."

Fighting:
  • 30/30/31/30/30/30
  • 31/31/30/30/30/30
  • 30/31/30/30/30/30
  • 31/30/30/30/30/30
  • 30/30/30/30/30/30

This actually makes it impossible for Kartana to run Fighting as a tertiary type for that STAB boost on Sacred Sword that it craves so heavily. And given the description I'd assume it applies to all Legendary pokemon, restricting them from running HT Fighting.

So my question is, is this either intended or avoidable? The Immortal
It's only a thing for legendaries introduced in gen 6 or 7, since those have at least 3+ 31 IVs when obtained. I can't find anything about whether this was a problem last gen but I'd assume that this meta still follows the same legalities as OU.
 
I haven't played this meta in previous gens, so I have a question regarding the general meta: is it named hidden type after hidden power, or is it actually a *hidden* type? Like, can I see my opponent's Pokémon's second/third type?
 
I haven't played this meta in previous gens, so I have a question regarding the general meta: is it named hidden type after hidden power, or is it actually a *hidden* type? Like, can I see my opponent's Pokémon's second/third type?
The 3rd type is in fact hidden, you can't see it, hence you have to scout in order to establish what type the opposition is running. This is best done via use of entry hazards, though can also be picked up in combat. Most pokemon only have 1 or 2 strong sets though so once you get used to the meta it becomes easy to rule out certain types and work out the set.

A common example of a strong mon last gen that could run multiple hidden types to create a substantial advantage if hazards were removed was Mega Altaria. As Fire type Mega Altaria had completely different counters and mons it could set up on to Steel Mega Altaria. If you tried to Will-O-Wisp a Fire Malt, it gets a free Dragon Dance, where as if you tried to Stone Edge a Steel Malt, it too gets a free Dragon Dance.

Flying/Grass Heatran is another example more relevant to this gen. So the hidden type mechanic adds a fun layer of surprise and caution to the meta, encouraging people to use less popular or sub-optimal types in order to create an advantage out of nothing.
 
Nothing has no weaknesses, the following each have exactly one weakness:

Normal/Psychic/Ghost
Normal/Ghost/Dark
Normal/Ghost/Fairy
Water/Electric/Bug
Water/Ground/Fairy
Water/Flying/Steel
Electric/Poison/Dark
Electric/Flying/Steel
Grass/Steel/Fairy
Poison/Ghost/Dark
Poison/Dragon/Steel
Flying/Dragon/Steel
Bug/Dragon/Steel
Bug/Steel/Fairy
Dragon/Steel/Fairy

Some of these can be covered with abilities (e.g. HP Ground Sap Sipper Azumarill), not that I make any claims about the usefulness of such.
 
Alright. I've added the IVs for types in the OP, so if anyone is teambuilding you can reference them there now that the mechanics of using hidden power to change ivs no longer works.

As Jack Dalton has brought up, Steel Dragonite is one of the most powerful threats in the current metagame. It can dragon dance on nearly anything, and has the coverage to bypass any given answer. It can also run bulky roost sets that do not rely on coverage, and instead get up a second or even third dragon dance versus foes trying to break multiscale for a teammate. This doesn't have a ladder, so I can't organize a suspect, but I'd still like to hear what you think!

Sample teams are also now live, if you have one you'd like to submit feel free to do so!
 
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Eelektross + Eelektrik + Tynamo
Ground Sap Sipper Azumarill + Marill
Dark Weezing + Koffing
Dark Gengar Haunter + Gastly

Only things with no weaknesses as far as I am aware.
 
I've never played hidden type so I'm not entirely sure how things are in it, but would steel zygarde be any good? You'd gain 2 new weaknesses, but you'd also lose 2 as well, and you'd gain a few new resistances.
 
I'd also like to note that Z-Moves open up a lot of options for Dragonite and allow it to blow past certain answers like Unaware Clefable.

252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Water Clefable: 282-333 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its movepool allows it access to most types of Z-Moves with the highest base power, and now adds an entire new layer of pressure on the person who has to play against it.
 
I've never played hidden type so I'm not entirely sure how things are in it, but would steel zygarde be any good? You'd gain 2 new weaknesses, but you'd also lose 2 as well, and you'd gain a few new resistances.
Yes Steel probably would be the best option on Zygarde. With Steel Dragonite and Salamence Flying around you'd be outclassed as Dragon Dancer, forcing Zygarde to opt towards it's bulky Coil set to establish itself in the meta. This means that you're not really looking for any new STABs on coverage moves because Thousand Arrows does the trick, meaning any typing that can halve your Ice weakness and give you more resistances than before is all you need.
Exchanging the Dragon and Fairy weaknesses for Fighting and Ground is well worth when also removing the 4x weakness, and I'm sure Zygarde won't mind losing the Fire resistance when it gains 8 new ones. Add onto this the new found Toxic immunity and Steel Zygarde may very well be a rather potent threat.
 

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