"Hitler was a great man."

[Polis4rule]

Of course had France been remotely decent with military tactics Hitler would've been fucked.

France's issue was that she focused too much military resources into the Maginot Line, which the German's simply bypassed. Of course, had Britain and France actually stood up to Germany, none of this would've happened, but that's besides the point.

 

[assassinfred]

I do not condone or agree with anything Hitler has done, but, he was a smart man. Well, in his early years, anyway. He pulled Germany out of the debt it owed AND militarized it over the period of 4 years, against a treaty that was, to be honest, completely unfair to the Germans. Does that justify his actions? Some could argue yes, but most say no.

During the early parts of his rule, Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy, as stated previously, he pulled Germany out of a recession and re-armed it over the period of four years. Before the war even began, yes, he started taking land, but the land he took was historically part of Germany that was taken by the Allies in World War I, which broke the Treaty of Versaille, which was, to be completely honest, a very unfair treaty to the Germans.

Once war broke out in 1939, even Hitler's military tactics were good. Blitzkrieg was a very effective strategy early on in the war (which is where Hitler took most of his land anyway), and managed to sign a peace treaty with the Soviets, allowing them to only have to fight on one front. He managed to capture several countries in only a few months. It was when he decided to turn on the Soviets when everything went wrong for him, but, that is the topic of another discussion.

The holocaust. Always a touchy subject, no matter who you talk to. This one, I can't say Hitler was smart with. He was just racist. That being said, Hitler was not directly in charge of the Holocaust, a man by the name of Heinrich Himmler was. But, I'm not sure if we can place the blame on Himmler; he was a complete nut.

Just to be clear, I do not agree with or support anything Hitler did, and he was, indeed, a very evil man. I'm just saying he was smart, especially at the beginning of his rule. As for the OP, it depends on what you define as "great". But, going into that territory could bring up something else entirely, so, I will refrain. All I'm saying is, while Hitler was evil, he was also smart.

 

[Broth3r]

When you resort to absurd comments like this that are patently false, it only serves to discredit your argument.

You know what I meant. Or do you think I'm stupid enough to think he was a robot or something?
Geez. It' just an expression of how some of his actions showed a complete lack of humanity.


I really don't wanna say grammar (or in this case, vocabulary) nazi in a thread about hitler.

 

[Great Sage]

You know what I meant. Or do you think I'm stupid enough to think he was a robot or something?
Geez. It' just an expression of how some of his actions showed a complete lack of humanity.

Then say what you mean. Isn't there enough legitimate material out there against Hitler that you can criticize him without using some verifiably false rhetorical device that does nothing to contribute to your argument?

 

[Lelouch]

I disapprove of one or two NS policies, but by and large I have no more against the NS than any other government. That's not approval or disapproval; it's just a fact that I juge governmental policy, which affects so many, in polarized terms: either good or bad, with no point trying to pass off something as worse than other things. The NS attitude of homophobia was bad, present-day German censorship is bad. An injustice is an injustice.

Hitler himself however, I dislike. He executed his dog, Blondi... in order to test the poison he wanted to use to kill himself? In case the poison didn't work? What?

 

[Jack Jack]

It's cause Hitler was a racist, that's why people obsess over him. Stalin starved 12 million people but he didn't starve them because they were jews.

Hum... Hitler being racist was not anything special. See, at the time, it was a given that you were racist. Being racist was seen as normal and even desirable. It was taken for granted that the aryan race was supperior to other races. And Antisememitism was not monopolised by Germany, about every country in the world had something against Jews.

Saying "Hitler was a monster but he brought Germany out of a recession!" is like saying "The serial killer murdered 5 cops but he also created 5 jobs!".

You know, in that recession, people were litterally dying of hunger. As in, losing there life because they could not eat. Of course WW2 has killed many people, but it saved many as well. But it is true it killed way more than it saved, but still, the "out of a recession" thing is major and worthy of praise.

See, whenever I come across topics like this, people are always one sided about subjects, which should not happen. You have to think from the mind of Adolf. Or even yourself. Adolf, in order to fuel the needs of his world, did what he thought was right. Of course, most everyone was against it, but people are stubborn. Even you would stand up for what you believe in. You couldn't just say, "Oh, yeah. I'm wrong. You rule the country now." You would want to do everything you could to help Germany, or the U.S., or wherever you are.

Hitler wasn't a horrible man, persay, but simply a..... decisive man, more decisive than most would think, but everyone who can't understand what he went through perceives it as blind rage and inhumane bloodshed. I know we're talking about the 11mil people, but you would do anything to keep what you know or love.

Let's go into a situation here. If your house was broken into by one man, and your family was being threatened at gunpoint, and you had a gun, what would you do? You (well, most likely) wouldn't drop it and put your hands up. You would try to protect your family, any way you could. Hitler was trying to give Germany a new view on the world, how it could be more effective with his union. People had grown accustomed to the status quo, and naturally, rejected it.

Hitler ultimately wanted to establish an absolute Aryan Hegemony in Europe. He killed millions of jews, as well as disabled individuals, gypsies, etc., and that was his view of how the world should be. His purpose. Natural selection. An artificial selection of the people who should be leading the world powers.

So don't just succumb to the fact he was a violent man, open your mind and think that he is just a man. He was a kid, I'm sure he wasn't bullying kids or frying ants when he was young, no. He wasn't born with intentions or killing people. As he went through life, new things changed him, as they do to all of us. He was a man with a vision of a perfect world, but everyone elses visions were nowhere near his.

I agree with most of what you said. It is not true that people disagreed with Hitler. He was named Man of the year 1938 by the time magazine after all. Not "politician" of the year, "Man" of the year. Which is an exemple of how he was actively supported worldwide.

I do not condone or agree with anything Hitler has done, but, he was a smart man. Well, in his early years, anyway. He pulled Germany out of the debt it owed AND militarized it over the period of 4 years, against a treaty that was, to be honest, completely unfair to the Germans. Does that justify his actions? Some could argue yes, but most say no.

During the early parts of his rule, Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy, as stated previously, he pulled Germany out of a recession and re-armed it over the period of four years. Before the war even began, yes, he started taking land, but the land he took was historically part of Germany that was taken by the Allies in World War I, which broke the Treaty of Versaille, which was, to be completely honest, a very unfair treaty to the Germans.

Once war broke out in 1939, even Hitler's military tactics were good. Blitzkrieg was a very effective strategy early on in the war (which is where Hitler took most of his land anyway), and managed to sign a peace treaty with the Soviets, allowing them to only have to fight on one front. He managed to capture several countries in only a few months. It was when he decided to turn on the Soviets when everything went wrong for him, but, that is the topic of another discussion.

The holocaust. Always a touchy subject, no matter who you talk to. This one, I can't say Hitler was smart with. He was just racist. That being said, Hitler was not directly in charge of the Holocaust, a man by the name of Heinrich Himmler was. But, I'm not sure if we can place the blame on Himmler; he was a complete nut.

Just to be clear, I do not agree with or support anything Hitler did, and he was, indeed, a very evil man. I'm just saying he was smart, especially at the beginning of his rule. As for the OP, it depends on what you define as "great". But, going into that territory could bring up something else entirely, so, I will refrain. All I'm saying is, while Hitler was evil, he was also smart.

I supposed Hitler did pulled Germany out of debt, if by "pulled out of debt" you mean : stopped to pay because he had no money to pay with.

Also, the saddest thing about the holocaust is that it wasn't evil. It was a business. It was seen exactly as waste disposal. The victims were genuinely not thought to be worthy or moral considerations. The holocaust is sad precisely because of it's amorality. It is scary, because it was commited by men and women like you and me, and it could happen again exactly for that reason.

Hitler wasn't evil. He was just one man living with his time.

 

[cim]

Hum... Hitler being racist was not anything special. See, at the time, it was a given that you were racist. Being racist was seen as normal and even desirable. It was taken for granted that the aryan race was supperior to other races. And Antisememitism was not monopolised by Germany, about every country in the world had something against Jews.

You're kidding, right? Just for fun, where did you get this information? Source? Who did you learn it from?

I agree with most of what you said. It is not true that people disagreed with Hitler. He was named Man of the year 1938 by the time magazine after all. Not "politician" of the year, "Man" of the year. Which is an exemple of how he was actively supported worldwide.

Well, except for the fact that Man Of The Year is not a prize. Man Of The Year is given to the person who created the most news. Time Magazine strongly considered giving it to Bin Laden in 2001, for example. Sorry, guess that means he was approved of worldwide.

You know, in that recession, people were litterally dying of hunger. As in, losing there life because they could not eat. Of course WW2 has killed many people, but it saved many as well. But it is true it killed way more than it saved, but still, the "out of a recession" thing is major and worthy of praise.

Yeah, thanks for explaining what starvation is to me. I wasn't quite sure.

He wasn't some economic mastermind who can pull a country out of recession. He just started a large military and war, which does pull people out of recessions, I guess. You make it sound like he did something insane and unheard of other than World War II that saved a country.

 

[mattj]

No joke Nix. My plant manager at my factory said to me and out QC lady on a Saturday when few workers were there, about 3 years ago before he was plant manager,

"You know what this line needs? Hitler..."
...
stunned silence from both me and Trudy our QC lady
...
"Oh, don't get me wrong he was a @#$@# for what he did to the Jews, but man... that guy knew how to organize workers..."
...
...

...

more stunned silence then he walked off...


Oh yeah. He's a skinhead too.

 

[Jack Jack]

You're kidding, right? Just for fun, where did you get this information? Source? Who did you learn it from?

We learn that in college. I thought you knew too.
I have some authors for you. Very influential in their own time.
Joseph-Arthur Gobineau
Houston Stewart Chamberlain
Ernst Haeckel

At the time, Darwin's On the Origin of Species was not yet a 100 years old. But aldready, his ideas have been applied by sociologist, to create what is known as Social Darwinism. The idea was that races compete for survival, and those who win live and those who lose die. Those who live would be somehow morally supperior, and their supperiority give them the right to exploit or kill the inferior races. It's utter bullshit, but it was covered in scientely mumbo jumbo, so people believed it genuinely. Don't forget that the majority of the populace was still rural, and artificial selection in crops and cattle was something most people were familiar with, it was not so much of a stretch for them to imagine artificial selection applied to humans.

See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialism#Racialism_and_scientific_racism

Well, except for the fact that Man Of The Year is not a prize. Man Of The Year is given to the person who created the most news. Time Magazine strongly considered giving it to Bin Laden in 2001, for example. Sorry, guess that means he was approved of worldwide.

... Okay. But the fact remains that, prior to having seen the camp, most people just shrug and said : "neither do I" when they were told that Hitler did not like Jews. Also, there was one thing Hitler hated that everybody in America and most of Europe hated : commies. And people were so much scared shitless of commies, prior to WW2, they saw Hitler, Mussolini and General Franco as some kind of protector against the communist threat.

Charlie Chaplin received death threats for even considering to portray Hitler negatively in The Great Dictator.

He wasn't some economic mastermind who can pull a country out of recession. He just started a large military and war, which does pull people out of recessions, I guess. You make it sound like he did something insane and unheard of other than World War II that saved a country.

Indeed, himself did nothing special. I was just pointing out that getting a country out of a recession like the great depression is not just merely "creating jobs". It does save life, no matter what merit Hitler might have had.

As an aside, war don't pull countries out of recession, that's the broken window fallacy. But this is not a thread on economics.

 

[The Plant]

I am no fan of calling hitler great. I think it just leads to supporting the idea that a single "leader" is what a country needs. If times ever became tough I think many democracies could elect somebody like Hitler. He probably wouldly kill any Jews but he very well might try to exterminate other Races (I know people who might suppor genocide against the Muslims). However I do think the OP is being a bit sensitive.

 

[Jack Jack]

Neither am I. He had nothing of greatness. He was not a great man, nor was he a great evil. He was just a man living by the ideas of his time, given the means to do something we disagree with.

This is precisely why it is scary. Because the "monster" and us are not so different. Deep down, we are affraid of being a monster ourselves. This is why Hitler has been demonised beyond belief.

 

[Nix_Hex]

what mattj said

No joke Nix. My plant manager at my factory said to me and out QC lady on a Saturday when few workers were there, about 3 years ago before he was plant manager,

"You know what this line needs? Hitler..."
...
stunned silence from both me and Trudy our QC lady
...
"Oh, don't get me wrong he was a @#$@# for what he did to the Jews, but man... that guy knew how to organize workers..."
...
...

...

more stunned silence then he walked off...


Oh yeah. He's a skinhead too.

Finally, someone gets the point of this thread! Can we try to steer this away from Hitler, though? There are plenty of other counts of racism in our daily lives, and honestly I used the title as a way to get people to read this thread... maybe I shouldn't have set the topic up with an extreme example. Let's go for some light-hearted racism!

Anyways, even in "liberal" places like Southern California racism is nowhere near dead, such Mexicans being pinned down as "taking our jobs." Of course, I agree with the fact that an illegal alien is in fact illegal, but there comes a point where one's opinion is no longer pragmatic and becomes racist, just by the way you treat said people.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I know we might be going over a different subject now, but I just had to reply to this.

Hum... Hitler being racist was not anything special. See, at the time, it was a given that you were racist. Being racist was seen as normal and even desirable. It was taken for granted that the aryan race was supperior to other races. And Antisememitism was not monopolised by Germany, about every country in the world had something against Jews.

What you're saying isn't exactly false. The thing is, everyone is racist one way or another. It's the way people wish to make it influence their lives which made the hoclcaust so special. It went on to the point where people were treated as nothing as a result of their so-called race. The sad thing about it was that the whole idea behind the holocaust was based around claims that turned out to be faked, but were known as true mainly because people wanted to believe they were true.

You know, in that recession, people were litterally dying of hunger. As in, losing there life because they could not eat. Of course WW2 has killed many people, but it saved many as well. But it is true it killed way more than it saved, but still, the "out of a recession" thing is major and worthy of praise.

I don't get how this has anything to do with the subject. Okay, people were poor, but that doesn't mean it's ok to exterminate millions of people.

I agree with most of what you said. It is not true that people disagreed with Hitler. He was named Man of the year 1938 by the time magazine after all. Not "politician" of the year, "Man" of the year. Which is an exemple of how he was actively supported worldwide.

He was actively supported because most of the world was (and is) racist anyway, especially towards the Jews. Since Hitler was the only one who actually went and done something based on his racism, it meant others could express their own racism by supporting him.

Also, the saddest thing about the holocaust is that it wasn't evil. It was a business. It was seen exactly as waste disposal. The victims were genuinely not thought to be worthy or moral considerations. The holocaust is sad precisely because of it's amorality. It is scary, because it was commited by men and women like you and me, and it could happen again exactly for that reason.

Excuse me? How wasn't it evil? Because the nation suddenly believed breaking democracy is ok? Just because you think something is ok (while for others it looks absurd) doesn't mean you can go along with doing it. Hitler crossed all the red lines and went ahead and attempted an extermination of a 'race' although he knew the outside world's leaders were mostly opposed to such acts, and he didn't do so because he didn't know otherwise. He did it because he wanted to and so did the Nazis as a whole, not to mention all of his supporters up to this day. He willingly attempted (and almost succeded in) to destroy men and women based on religion and facts that weren't facts in the slightest, mostly because his racism drew him into doing so. Yes, he IS evil. No normal human would let his feelings possess him/her in such a way, and Hitler let that happen.

Also, I recall saying somewhere that the OP was 'too sensitive'. Are you fucking stupid? Of course it's sensitive. Any and every Jew has the right to be deeply offended by the holocaust, and the OP had to show some of the writers' feelings in some way. Just imagine a group of people soullessly murdering your people out of pure hatred. Imagine how more than half of the world would gladly let that happen, supporting Hitler all the way. All of a sudden you hear people saying 'Hitler was a great man' even though he broke democracy and any morals known to man with his brutal acts. No man would call such a 'thing' a "great man" -- scratch that -- a man if he wasn't in some agreement with his ways. Which leads to the point of this thread - people let their racism get to them way too easily, and that is bad because it could easily result in another holocaust.

 

[Not Scicky]

The worst thing is the medical testing that was done on jews during WWII. Honestly I can't imagine a worse thing to be subjected to, but at the same time, the medicine that was created by the Germans at the time has saved millions of lives since then. I'm divided on certain aspects of the holocaust but overall it was a terrible instance in history.

However, some of the stuff in this thread is ridiculous, saying that inventing medicines justifies death is, admittedly, pretty ludicrous in itself, but come on, something like: "Under Hitler's reign Germany created a giant road and an automobile." is just stupid. A BRAND NEW VOLKSWAGEN =/= A single human life, let alone 6 million.

Off the topic of Hitler and just straight up racism. I see plenty of... well, it seems like it's racism. It's people saying (BAN ME PLEASE) in a derogatory way and making fun of mexicans, but it's not racism, because the same people that are doing these things are also making fun of white people and... anything they can possibly make fun of. It's not racism but pure misanthropy in this case.

What is racism though? Is it just discrimination? It's essentially just treating someone differently based on race. Really, I think everyone is racist then. I would walk up to my white friends and jokingly call them crackers and everyone would chuckle, now I walk up to my friends who aren't white, and am I going to go on calling them (BAN ME PLEASE)s and chinks and kikes and spics? Hell no, I like my head where it is. Does this make me a racist? Hell yes it does.

Fuck though, most of the racism I've seen stems from brown kids at my school making fun of people and calling them "white-boy", to which the usual reply is "Yes, that is my skin color, thank you."

 

[Jack Jack]

Hitler did not "crossed" the red lines. He erased them.

The holocaust was an industrialised waste disposal business.

If you learned that doughnuts were alive, would you feel evil to eat them? Do you feel evil when you exterminate an ant infestation in your house just because they bother you? Hitler genuinely thought that Jews, slavs and whatnot were nothing but vermin. In this context, he did the sensible thing : exterminate them.

It's A-okay to exterminate rats. You are not evil when you are doing something you think is A-okay. Hitler thought Jews were rats. Therefore, Hitler was not evil.

Hitler was not evil, and this is precisely why the holocaust could happen again.

 

[Precognition]

Hitler wasn't a military genius by any means.

He devised an inefficient political military system in which his Generals had no power, and when he stopped taking their advices he quickly started making stupid mistakes which cost him the war.

Simply put he was a paper tiger, a stupid man who took credit for economic miracles that took place because of Government policies put in before he took office.

I mean seriously, you're in a race to create the first atomic bomb and you send your country's greatest minds to political camps or just outright kill or exile them?

 

[billymills]

I have no problem with a leader. If Hitler was a terrible person, it's the people around him that let him get that far that are the problem.

The Germans who helped elect him, the British, French, Americans, and all the smaller nations that sat aside and let him do whatever, the underlings within the party that supported his rule to whatever end. They all bare the responsibility for what Hitler did.

Hitler is just one man. The Nazi party is only a group of people. You have to wonder how they got to get so powerful before there was any opposition to them. Hitler had some effective plans, but that would have been irrelevant had he been alone.

I simply see the situation as a lot of pacifism and Antisemitism in the early 20th century. Hitler was only at the forefront and he takes a lot of (undue) responsibility. Probably because we don't want to have it on ourselves.

 

[Ancien Régime]

i love how nearly all "great men" were mass murderers

hitler
roosevelt
stalin
lincoln
mussolini
lenin
wilson
caesar
napoleon


Historians literally seem to judge personal greatness based on how many people that person kills.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Off the topic of Hitler and just straight up racism. I see plenty of... well, it seems like it's racism. It's people saying (BAN ME PLEASE) in a derogatory way and making fun of mexicans, but it's not racism, because the same people that are doing these things are also making fun of white people and... anything they can possibly make fun of. It's not racism but pure misanthropy in this case.

Are you being sarcastic?

i love how nearly all "great men" were mass murderers

hitler
roosevelt
stalin
lincoln
mussolini
lenin
wilson
caesar
napoleon


Historians literally seem to judge personal greatness based on how many people that person kills.

Don't forget columbus!!

 

[cim]

I'm honestly at a loss for words if you think that just 60 years ago, it was the norm to push for the extermination of races and thus people who did so were only products of their time rather than evil. That's just simply not a correct statement.

 

[billymills]

I'm honestly at a loss for words if you think that just 60 years ago, it was the norm to push for the extermination of races and thus people who did so were only products of their time rather than evil. That's just simply not a correct statement.

I'm saying that it's irrelevant if Hitler was evil or not. He probably was.

I'm saying that it'd have been impossible for him to have been able to push for the extermination of races had a great majority not looked the other way or in someway supported him.

 

[Jack Jack]

Exterminating other races was not the norm. Thinking they were less human than you was the norm. Thinking they were mere animals was the logical step. And when they are mere animals, you can do anything to them without a second thought. Extermination is next.

It ain't such a long shot.
All of those who say he was evil, I suspect you are not even trying to understand why he believed what he believed. You are not even trying to see the holocaust from Hitler's point of view. There are always two sides to a medal. If you can't see both, how can you say the whole of it is evil? That is, of course, assuming you have knowledge of good and evil.

I have no problem with a leader. If Hitler was a terrible person, it's the people around him that let him get that far that are the problem.

The Germans who helped elect him, the British, French, Americans, and all the smaller nations that sat aside and let him do whatever, the underlings within the party that supported his rule to whatever end. They all bare the responsibility for what Hitler did.

Hitler is just one man. The Nazi party is only a group of people. You have to wonder how they got to get so powerful before there was any opposition to them. Hitler had some effective plans, but that would have been irrelevant had he been alone.

I simply see the situation as a lot of pacifism and Antisemitism in the early 20th century. Hitler was only at the forefront and he takes a lot of (undue) responsibility. Probably because we don't want to have it on ourselves.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything here. Especially the last part : "Probably because we don't want to have [that responsibility] on ourselves"

I'm saying that it'd have been impossible for him to have been able to push for the extermination of races had a great majority not looked the other way or in someway supported him.

Oh so very true.

 

[lati0s]

It's A-okay to exterminate rats. You are not evil when you are doing something you think is A-okay. Hitler thought Jews were rats. Therefore, Hitler was not evil.

Hitler was not evil, and this is precisely why the holocaust could happen again.

This is not how I view things. If someone does something bad and they know it is bad they are evil. If someone does something bad and doesn't realize that it is bad then they are evil and crazy. In my mind evil people are not people who do things that they think are wrong they are people who do things that I think are wrong.

 

[Jack Jack]

Must you be wise indeed, not only to know what is good and what is evil, but to actually decide on the morality of the actions of others.

 

[lati0s]

It's not really that hard to see that the holocaust was morally wrong.