Hmm Leafeon.

[Raikizen]

Are you serious? I'm sorry to be mean, but PLEASE learn more about competitive play before posting movesets like that (and then trying to defend them). While Natural Gift Electric might be a nice surprise every once in a while, Aerial Ace is completely useless. 110 base attack and 95 base speed does not mean that Swords Dance is wasted - it still has Leaf Blade to work with. HOWEVER, a smart option is to pass that Swords Dance when Leafeon has served it's purpose instead of trying to cover all the bases (which it's movepool can't support - Aerial Ace? X-Scissor? non-STAB Return? Dig? What the hell?)

Don't post telling people to grow up when you aren't mature enough to take responsibility for your actions. You posted a mediocre moveset, own up to it.

True. Leafeons moves are inferior to others, and these movesets are mediocre. But that doens't mean they won't work. I am not sticking up for my moveset, but I would like to say that any moveset can work when used properly. Think of these as novelty movesets if you will.
But to be honest, I am going to stick with my Ninjask for baton passing SD, as I feel he does a better job of it.

 

[Shank]

Are you serious? I'm sorry to be mean, but PLEASE learn more about competitive play before posting movesets like that (and then trying to defend them). While Natural Gift Electric might be a nice surprise every once in a while, Aerial Ace is completely useless. 110 base attack and 95 base speed does not mean that Swords Dance is wasted - it still has Leaf Blade to work with. HOWEVER, a smart option is to pass that Swords Dance when Leafeon has served it's purpose instead of trying to cover all the bases (which it's movepool can't support - Aerial Ace? X-Scissor? non-STAB Return? Dig? What the hell?)

Don't post telling people to grow up when you aren't mature enough to take responsibility for your actions. You posted a mediocre moveset, own up to it.

Even though Aielyn posted a mediocre set, can you blame him for trying?
My point is, nearly every person that posts a team/Pokemon, just copies the analysis's word for word, does that make Pokemon interesting? If every person uses the same moveset, then whats the point of creating your own team if hundreds of people have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same moves.

In my opinion writing the expert analysis's to help everybody, is just hindering every ones chances at winning, seeing as all it comes down to is who is a more patient breeder, because the moves don't count, since they are all the same.

Fine if your really good at making movesets, that just means you will win more often, but just don't put down people who want to try new things. Thats the whole fun of Pokemon!

 

[Kumar]

Try new things, creativity is good. But make sure they actually work for you before posting in a public forum telling everyone and their uncle 'ZOMG THIS PWNZ'.

 

[Matt]

But that doens't mean they won't work. I am not sticking up for my moveset, but I would like to say that any moveset can work when used properly.

NO. That is completely false, and it is this mentality that is getting these terrible strategies posted in the first place.

In my opinion writing the expert analysis's to help everybody, is just hindering every ones chances at winning, seeing as all it comes down to is who is a more patient breeder, because the moves don't count, since they are all the same.

Are you really saying that writing a good analysis of a Pokemon hurts the game? Should good players hide everything they know and prevent others from becoming good as well, if they wish to learn? Which would you rather have, a metagame where people in general use optimal or near optimal movesets for a Pokemon, or a metagame full of Aielyns using Dig Flareons?

If movesets are really as predictable as you say they are, it should be very easy to make your team counter them, no? You wouldn't have to go all the way to putting Dig on everything, just change certain things to make your team unpredictable, while at the same time not making it completely crap.

 

[crabnebula]

Try new things, creativity is good. But make sure they actually work for you before posting in a public forum telling everyone and their uncle 'ZOMG THIS PWNZ'.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Please think about what you are posting, how is it good if not better and also provide proofs taking into account all scenarios. Just because it can work in one scenario that you have imagined doesn't mean it is going to work in another. If you have doubts over what you have thought about, post something like "I have thought up something like this. I am not sure if this is going to work, how is it good/bad" People will gladly help you with this I am sure.

 

[Raikizen]

Try new things, creativity is good. But make sure they actually work for you before posting in a public forum telling everyone and their uncle 'ZOMG THIS PWNZ'.

Well, the one I posted did work, but only, like I said, because of support. I guess any physical attacker can do well with 1 SD, 2 Speed Boosts, and some prediction, huh? lol

 

[chaos]

Fine if your really good at making movesets, that just means you will win more often, but just don't put down people who want to try new things. Thats the whole fun of Pokemon!

You seem to have hit the nail on the head, but for different reasons than you may think. If people want to experiment, they are free to. That however, is a personal endeavor and not appropriate for discussion in this thread, especially since the original poster seems to not have a firm grip on Pokemon theory. Experimentation is best done when you have a better grasp of the theory so you can actually use a Pokemon's unique strengths in an effective manner. Any Pokemon can "use" a mish-mash of subpar moves, but it's not an effective use.

The point is: new players should learn how to play Pokemon first before suggesting to other new players movesets which do not work. Learn what works and what doesnt, then experiment and have fun with it. Don't, however, mislead newer players in thinking such experimental movesets are actually effective. This is why the analyses try not to have any gimmick sets - they are used as a basis for helping players get their foot in the door.

 

[Shank]

Are you really saying that writing a good analysis of a Pokemon hurts the game? Should good players hide everything they know and prevent others from becoming good as well, if they wish to learn? Which would you rather have, a metagame where people in general use optimal or near optimal movesets for a Pokemon, or a metagame full of Aielyns using Dig Flareons?

If movesets are really as predictable as you say they are, it should be very easy to make your team counter them, no? You wouldn't have to go all the way to putting Dig on everything, just change certain things to make your team unpredictable, while at the same time not making it completely crap.

I believe they it does hurt the game somewhat, seeing as skilled people put all the hard work into learning about all the intracasies of Pokemon, why not reap the rewards?

Also having all the same movesets, gives people who have studied the metagame an advantage over regular people, for example:

CB Heracross VS SD Leafeon
All the skilled players, such as yourself and other Moderators and Admins
would automatically know the standard Leafeon set, which has nothing to hurt Heracross, so you would think it would be safe to use Megahorn, but if they have a slight variation, such as Aerial Ace then Heracross would be fainted.

Although that might not be the best example, can you see what I'm trying to say?

 

[Shank]

You seem to have hit the nail on the head, but for different reasons than you may think. If people want to experiment, they are free to. That however, is a personal endeavor and not appropriate for discussion in this thread, especially since the original poster seems to not have a firm grip on Pokemon theory. Experimentation is best done when you have a better grasp of the theory so you can actually use a Pokemon's unique strengths in an effective manner. Any Pokemon can "use" a mish-mash of subpar moves, but it's not an effective use.

The point is: new players should learn how to play Pokemon first before suggesting to other new players movesets which do not work. Learn what works and what doesnt, then experiment and have fun with it. Don't, however, mislead newer players in thinking such experimental movesets are actually effective. This is why the analyses try not to have any gimmick sets - they are used as a basis for helping players get their foot in the door.

You have a very good point their, chaos, however why not let newer players experiment for themselves, rather then telling them the "best" set to have,why not let them figure it out by themselves?

 

[Aielyn]

do any of the other eeveelutions get sword dance?



lol are you serious

If you want a swords dance passer, why not go with Ninjask? You get the extra added advantage of speed boosts. Why not Gliscor, who has the same speed and higher defenses and HP, with only a small decrease in Attack? My point is, why not try to find new and different ways to use Leafeon, rather than just slotting him neatly into the "baton-passer" category?

This is the problem. You haven't even accounted for the most probable scenario, that being Gyarados switching into Leafeon to reduce the attack boost that is going to pass. And why would you use Leafeon as a Gyarados counter when there are better things for it and more importantly better things for Leafeon to do?

I already pointed out that I was basing those numbers off Leafeon switching in on Gyarados. And I wasn't so much saying that Leafeon is a Gyarados counter as that it would have the advantage of also being a way to counter the Gyarados-Electivire pair. And I did offer one option for that last move being Swords Dance... using that, you are now one level up after the intimidation followed by the Swords Dance... then, if Life Orb Max-attack Gyarados DD's, it still can't OHKO Leafeon with Ice Fang, while Leafeon can OHKO max-HP max-Defense Gyarados with NG Electric. The important thing is, the foe isn't expecting Electric, so they have no reason to switch to Electivire. If Gyarados decides to attack with Ice Fang rather than Dragon Dancing, it will still be slower than Leafeon, meaning that it won't get in the killer second attack before NG Electric faints it.

"There's better Eeveelutions" is a funny excuse. The only thing they have in common is that they learn a few of the same moves and they all evolve from Eevee. If anything, compare Leafeon to other Grassers. AFAIK the only thing that comes close to being as good in Swords Dance passing is Celebi, and that's just because you usually wouldn't expect it to.

If you want to baton pass Swords Dance, wouldn't Gliscor or Ninjask be better?

Just because something has stats like that doesn't mean it should go all out sweeper, cause there's something that can do it better. On the other hand, support with Baton Pass while still having offense in the form of a pretty strong STAB move called leaf blade isn't such a bad idea. Just throwing on offense on anything like that and arguing that 'it beats pokemon X with move Y' is pointless. You're fighting a TEAM of 6 pokemon where something will cover another's weakness. You can't expect every pokemon to cover everything, that's just not how you play this game.

I certainly didn't try to cover all weaknesses - I tried to offer different options for covering different weaknesses, however. There simply isn't a moveset available to Leafeon that will cover all weaknesses at once - best to choose one and run with it. I feel that Electric is one of the best choices, because of what it does for Flying types, especially Gyarados. I then mentioned Fighting, Ground, and Ice as options, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.


People seem to have taken exception to three attack moves... how about we drop one, and limit ourselves to NG Electric and Leaf Blade? Then, we can insert Baton Pass into the empty slot. Now we can serve both purposes... indeed, we can switch in on Gyarados (when it won't use Ice Fang on that move), Swords Dance, NG Electric, then Baton Pass out of there, giving the recipient an Attack boost.

 

[crabnebula]

If you want a swords dance passer, why not go with Ninjask? You get the extra added advantage of speed boosts. Why not Gliscor, who has the same speed and higher defenses and HP, with only a small decrease in Attack? My point is, why not try to find new and different ways to use Leafeon, rather than just slotting him neatly into the "baton-passer" category?

Can either of them do anything to Skarmory when it switches into you?

I already pointed out that I was basing those numbers off Leafeon switching in on Gyarados. And I wasn't so much saying that Leafeon is a Gyarados counter as that it would have the advantage of also being a way to counter the Gyarados-Electivire pair. And I did offer one option for that last move being Swords Dance... using that, you are now one level up after the intimidation followed by the Swords Dance... then, if Life Orb Max-attack Gyarados DD's, it still can't OHKO Leafeon with Ice Fang, while Leafeon can OHKO max-HP max-Defense Gyarados with NG Electric. The important thing is, the foe isn't expecting Electric, so they have no reason to switch to Electivire. If Gyarados decides to attack with Ice Fang rather than Dragon Dancing, it will still be slower than Leafeon, meaning that it won't get in the killer second attack before NG Electric faints it.

If you are switching Leafeon into Gyarados, doesn't it mean you are trying to counter it and thus become a counter? Moreover why would you NG Electric it when you can just Baton Pass the Swords Dance boosts to something like your own Gyarados and sweep your opponent's team. And I did say, Gyarados switching into Leafeon is the most common scenario that you will find and not the other way round. Please understand that.

I certainly didn't try to cover all weaknesses - I tried to offer different options for covering different weaknesses, however. There simply isn't a moveset available to Leafeon that will cover all weaknesses at once - best to choose one and run with it. I feel that Electric is one of the best choices, because of what it does for Flying types, especially Gyarados. I then mentioned Fighting, Ground, and Ice as options, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Not every poke is suited to be a sweeper. Some are hindered by their stats and some are by their movepools. Leafeon comes under the second category. It is the sweepers (or walls) who should be able to cover as many weaknesses as possible. What Leafeon does is support the team and it is quite good at it. Can you use Skarmory as a sweeper? Slap a Choice Band on it. Give it to moves to cover everything, but still would it be useful?

People seem to have taken exception to three attack moves... how about we drop one, and limit ourselves to NG Electric and Leaf Blade? Then, we can insert Baton Pass into the empty slot. Now we can serve both purposes... indeed, we can switch in on Gyarados (when it won't use Ice Fang on that move), Swords Dance, NG Electric, then Baton Pass out of there, giving the recipient an Attack boost.

How then will you counter Skarmory/Weezing that will switch into you to (P)Haze you away? Gyarados is not the only threat to Leafeon.

 

[chaos]

You have a very good point their, chaos, however why not let newer players experiment for themselves, rather then telling them the "best" set to have,why not let them figure it out by themselves?

Why would a Biology major read text books about Biology? Why shouldn't he just fuck around with ya know them blood cells or dem leaves or somethin' he'll figure it out!!!!!

Joking aside though, that's the point of this website. It is a resource for learning how to competitively battle. There may not be a "best" overall set for any Pokemon (it depends on the other 5 pokemon you pick) but it's elementary to figure out what will work and what won't.

 

[Shank]

Why would a Biology major read text books about Biology? Why shouldn't he just fuck around with ya know them blood cells or dem leaves or somethin' he'll figure it out!!!!!

Joking aside though, that's the point of this website. It is a resource for learning how to competitively battle. There may not be a "best" overall set for any Pokemon (it depends on the other 5 pokemon you pick) but it's elementary to figure out what will work and what won't.

Well said, lol.

 

[Mekkah]

If you want to baton pass Swords Dance, wouldn't Gliscor or Ninjask be better?

Leafeon @ Belue Berry
- Natural Gift (HP Electric)
- Leaf Blade
- Aerial Ace
- Yawn/Swords Dance/Return/Synthesis/Wish

If you want a Pokemon that uses Grass as its main attacking move and retarded Flying and Electric damage as its company, why not use Sceptile? Heck, it can actually Swords Dance too!

 

[Luck]

Imagine Porygon-Z,Leafeon,Steelix,Blissey,Cresselia,Floaztel are a Team.Nobody on team really covers Heracross,You have two choice take off a pokemon and replace it and get Hera counter or Find a way make your team cover Hera.So you decide to put AA on Leafeon.That only time aa is really good idea.

The set chaos suggested is more solid set.Other than Heracross when will aa come handy Inferape, Machamp, Hariyama, Sceptile,V enasuar, Roserade? Leafeon does not really counter types it should with aa,It is more help to team other sets but every once a surprise works.

 

[Aielyn]

If you are switching Leafeon into Gyarados, doesn't it mean you are trying to counter it and thus become a counter? Moreover why would you NG Electric it when you can just Baton Pass the Swords Dance boosts to something like your own Gyarados and sweep your opponent's team. And I did say, Gyarados switching into Leafeon is the most common scenario that you will find and not the other way round. Please understand that.

I understand, but I meant that I wasn't so much designing Leafeon as a Gyarados counter as I was designing Leafeon using Gyarados as a benchmark. However, I have already demonstrated how Leafeon can successfully handle Gyarados switching in, thereby covering your "most common scenario".

Not every poke is suited to be a sweeper. Some are hindered by their stats and some are by their movepools. Leafeon comes under the second category. It is the sweepers (or walls) who should be able to cover as many weaknesses as possible. What Leafeon does is support the team and it is quite good at it. Can you use Skarmory as a sweeper? Slap a Choice Band on it. Give it to moves to cover everything, but still would it be useful?

I quite specifically avoided making Leafeon a sweeper. I tried to make him a pokemon that can do some damage to something a little wider than "pokemon weak to grass". It tends to come easiest, when you are trying to build up a good moveset, to start by viewing from one perspective, then consider issues... much as has happened here. I suggested Aerial Ace for attack diversity, but when people pointed out problems with the moveset as is, I realised that Aerial Ace wasn't the right move - Baton Pass was (with that last slot set to Swords Dance). Now we have a pokemon that can take out a wider range of pokemon, but still serve its purpose as a baton-passer.

How then will you counter Skarmory/Weezing that will switch into you to (P)Haze you away? Gyarados is not the only threat to Leafeon.

What if the standard Leafeon has Hazing Crobat switched in on it? What if it's a faster pokemon that also has Roar? What if it's Taunt Gyarados (or another Taunt pokemon that isn't weak to Grass)? And what, exactly, does standard Leafeon do about Weezing, anyway?

My point is, there are risks with every moveset. The standard Leafeon set handles Skarmory and maybe Weezing. This one handles Gyarados (among others). And if Leafeon IS faced with Skarmory, it can do a lot of damage with NG Electric (if it's Skarmory instead of Gyarados, rather than Skarmory after Gyarados) - Skarmory is expecting Baton Pass, or, at worst, Leaf Blade, because Leafeon's standard moves (not counting NG) don't include anything effective against Skarmory. The foe is probably also prepared for a Roar, so they're going to use Stealth Rock or something, instead, so it gets in a move. When you hit it with NG Electric, it gets hit for at least 58% damage (based on max-HP max-Defense, and one Swords Dance by Leafeon, on the turn that Skarmory switched in).

Tell me, if Roar is standard on Leafeon, why would you try to switch Skarmory in on it?


EDIT:

If you want a Pokemon that uses Grass as its main attacking move and retarded Flying and Electric damage as its company, why not use Sceptile? Heck, it can actually Swords Dance too!

Sceptile has noticeably lower attack, much lower defense, and its only real advantage over Leafeon is its speed and maybe having some Special Defense. Meanwhile, Gliscor's only real disadvantage over Leafeon is lack of Roar, when it comes to SD-passing.

 

[Matt]

Leafeon is much faster than Gyarados, and can Baton Pass out before it does anything. You don't need to ruin it with Natural Gift to handle Gyarados, and no one is going to switch Gyarados in to Leafeon anyway.

If you know Skarmory is going to Spike instead of Whirlwinding, you can just Baton Pass out to something else, instead of wasting a slot on Natural Gift. Even if you DO hit Skarmory with Natural Gift, then what? You can't do it again, and Skarmory can immediately heal itself with Roost. Good job wasting an item and a moveslot.

 

[Mr.E]

Here is a short list of pokemon you should consider using Natural Gift on: :jump:

 

[crabnebula]

Tell me how Natural Gift is any better than Yawn and Roar?

Yawn, Weezing switches into you to Haze, you Yawn it and then come back to pass or if it stays SD up and pass. Roar Skarmory after it switches into you, it it SR/Spikes up you still have phazed it and pass before it switches into you again or SD up and rinse and repeat.

Give me examples of fast pokemon that have Roar and can easily switch into Leafeon.

 

[Aielyn]

Leafeon is much faster than Gyarados, and can Baton Pass out before it does anything. You don't need to ruin it with Natural Gift to handle Gyarados, and no one is going to switch Gyarados in to Leafeon anyway.

If you know Skarmory is going to Spike instead of Whirlwinding, you can just Baton Pass out to something else, instead of wasting a slot on Natural Gift. Even if you DO hit Skarmory with Natural Gift, then what? You can't do it again, and Skarmory can immediately heal itself with Roost. Good job wasting an item and a moveslot.

And what about pokemon with Haze? Faster pokemon with Roar?

And the difference is that, even if Skarmory uses Roar/Whirlwind, Leafeon can get some decent damage in, making it all the more likely that the pokemon brought out will be able to take Skarmory out (which then frees Leafeon up for Swords Dancing again). If Skarmory doesn't use Roar/Whirlwind, then Leafeon did some decent damage, and can either Baton Pass now (if Skarmory then Roars or Whirlwinds, so be it - you may get hit by spikes/SR, but that's small price to pay for doing over 50% damage to Skarmory) or start Leaf Blading, which, with luck, may critical hit and take Skarmory out after a couple of hits. In any case, you can protect yourself.

If you have Roar to take care of Skarmory, then Roar is the best option if Skarmory Roars, and Baton Passing is the best choice if Skarmory tries to Spikes/SR. With the Roar version of Leafeon, it's a game of prediction, and a bad prediction could harm your chances. With the NG Electric version, your next move is basically already known, the action is independent of the Skarmory move.


EDIT:

Tell me how Natural Gift is any better than Yawn and Roar?

Yawn, Weezing switches into you to Haze, you Yawn it and then come back to pass or if it stays SD up and pass. Roar Skarmory after it switches into you, it it SR/Spikes up you still have phazed it and pass before it switches into you again or SD up and rinse and repeat.

Give me examples of fast pokemon that have Roar and can easily switch into Leafeon.

OK, so Yawn handles Weezing, Roar handles Skarmory. You don't have a move that can handle both.

As for pokemon with Roar that can switch into Leafeon: Charizard, Ninetales, possibly Arcanine, Dragonite, Typhlosion, possibly Houndoom, Sceptile, Salamence, Infernape, and possibly Drapion. For Whirlwind: Staraptor, Fearow, Crobat, Swellow, and possibly Yanmega. And those are just the non-legendary ones with type resistance to Leaf Blade (I left off legendaries just because most of them could probably pull it off, and it's more interesting to see the list of more common pokemon).

And then there's Honchkrow, who is resistant to Leaf Blade, can have the ability Insomnia, and can know Haze. What, exactly, do you do about Honchkrow? Well, NG Electric has a chance of OHKOing Honchkrow after a Swords Dance, and that's if Honchkrow has max-HP and max-Defense. It also has Whirlwind as an option, and it has a pretty mean Drill Peck, so Honchkrow has quite a few ways to cause problems.

 

[Matt]

You do 0% to Skarmory since it Roosts immediately.

Of course it seems as if you're completely blind to everything we try to tell you, so this seems kind of pointless! It's amazing to see how many people are coming here without ever having even battled, trying to tell us which movesets work and which don't...this has been a big problem for the boards lately, and yet when it's pointed out the people continue doing it =[

 

[Aielyn]

You do 0% to Skarmory since it Roosts immediately.

Of course it seems as if you're completely blind to everything we try to tell you, so this seems kind of pointless! It's amazing to see how many people are coming here without ever having even battled, trying to tell us which movesets work and which don't...this has been a big problem for the boards lately, and yet when it's pointed out the people continue doing it =[

If Skarmory's likely to Roost immediately, then there's more reason to Baton Pass - you've now got your pokemon with its SD'd attack, ready to take out Skarmory (who is now at, at best, 92% health). If Skarmory decides to Roar, then you'll lose the SD, but Skarmory is now at, at best, 42% HP, ready for taking out. It has to use Roost to heal up completely (if it has Leftovers, then it will be at a somewhat higher HP, but it will still be significantly down).

And I've never claimed "this moveset works". I simply offered it as a possibility, for discussion and debate. What point is having a discussion board for pokemon if you can't discuss or debate movesets? I actually revel in this debate over the moveset, because it makes my next suggestion better, in the end. And in the meantime, you get to see some different ideas, many of which are probably useless, but you just might get inspired by one of them.

If the community stifles any attempt at innovation, the community will simply stagnate. You're not going to come up with anything new if you refuse to see the less-than-perfect movesets.

 

[Kumar]

You do realise that NG is one time use only, right?

 

[Aielyn]

You do realise that NG is one time use only, right?

No, I was under the impression that you could use it as much as you want. [/sarcasm]

Being one-time-use means that you have to be careful in using it - it doesn't mean that it's worthless.

 

[Surgo]

And I've never claimed "this moveset works". I simply offered it as a possibility, for discussion and debate.

And there's the problem. If you do not personally know that it works, do not post it. End of discussion.