Well, I don't see the problem with considering Ho-oh as a counter to itself. If you can use it, obviously the opponent also can! It would be a problem if it's the only counter, or the only argument from those who defend Ho-oh's "OUness"/Testing.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?
- Thread starter Jetx
- Start date
- Status
I'm not even considering Ho-oh countering itself a viable excuse to put it in OU. Outrage Scarf Chomp can swap in on Yache Chomp SDing, therefore it is a counter and Chomp should be OU. Or better yet, every pokemon counters itself, therefore, all pokemon should be OU.
The only pokemon who can't be burnt by Ho-oh are fire pokemon. All of them save Moltres are destroyed by Earthquake. Moltres only poses a threat with Toxic (HP Rock gets stalled by Roost). So every pokemon who swaps in has a 47.5% chance of being burned, potentially screwing up many counters like Aerodactyl and even scarfers. Even Suicune hates a burn. And if PP is a problem, Ho-oh can even hold Leppa Berry.
Scared Fire plus 680 base stats will doom Ho-oh to uber status for an eternity. If trialled on suspect, the metagame will dramatically change just to counter him (more than Chomp and Skymin), putting him back to Uber.
We don't want any one pokemon used on 100% of competitive teams, that's simply not promoting a healthy strategic metagame. When it gets to the point where a pokemon is going to be on your opponents team more often than not, there is a significant problem. That is the folly of saying "Well Ho-oh can counter Ho-oh so it should be OU", because if Ho-oh is both a huge threat and a counter to a huge threat, nobody will bother using other Ho-oh 'counters' which are only functioning defensively. Kyogre counters Kyogre, no issues with it being in OU right? Groudon counters Groudon pretty damned well, should he get moved down?
The only thing standing between Ho-oh and a complete and utter brutal rape of today's metagame is Stealth Rock (and a few very bulky waters, such as crocune or possibly cmbro), that point is essentially unarguable. Now, with Stealth Rock already being the single most useful move in the game, is it REALLY going to be healthy for the metagame to make it even more essential?
I feel I must repeat this, too: Just because it can be countered in OU does not mean it's not uber material. Most of the pokemon in the uber tier can be countered pretty easily using OU pokemon provided you know they're coming. Overcentralization defines ubers, but admittedly the only real way of finding it is through a test. I can see Ho-oh getting tested at some point way down the line however I doubt he'll be coming down.
The only thing standing between Ho-oh and a complete and utter brutal rape of today's metagame is Stealth Rock (and a few very bulky waters, such as crocune or possibly cmbro), that point is essentially unarguable. Now, with Stealth Rock already being the single most useful move in the game, is it REALLY going to be healthy for the metagame to make it even more essential?
I feel I must repeat this, too: Just because it can be countered in OU does not mean it's not uber material. Most of the pokemon in the uber tier can be countered pretty easily using OU pokemon provided you know they're coming. Overcentralization defines ubers, but admittedly the only real way of finding it is through a test. I can see Ho-oh getting tested at some point way down the line however I doubt he'll be coming down.
Maybe not healthier per se but you said it yourself, it'd be making it "more essential" and if it's already "essential" then I see little (no) problem with that.
I do agree with this, although Ho-oh in OU might become more and more viable depending on the eventual placement of other suspects (notably Manaphy and Lati@s).
Fair enough, but I still think the SubRoost set is its best, and I still think it needs Whirlwind else there's no way of stopping a counter when your substitute breaks. It has its flaws, but so do lots of other sets, which is one of the things that I think makes it worth a test.
Misinterpreting my post there. I merely stated that Ho-oh can eat Sacred Fire PP from other Ho-ohs.
Kietharr: It being on nearly every team is just an assumption. It's very burdensome to have to keep it healthy with all the Rapid Spinning and possibly even Heal Belling that would be needing to keep it safe.
I don't understand where this stuff about Ho-oh being one of the only counters I have thought up came from. There are many more options, from Miltank to Regirock. And I don't see why it matters that Stealth Rock gets another boost, people already use it all the time.
OU pokemon with Pressure are:
- Aerodactyl (low Def and Hlth plus Burn cripples him and weakness to Thunderbolt = poor switch-in (though good revenge killer))
- Articuno...
- Zapdos (Burn hurts)
- Moltres, almost completely inferior to Ho-oh
- Suicune!!!
- Raikou (low Def)
- Entei (earthquake weakness)
- Weavile...
- Dusknoir (Burn cripples him and he can't burn or decently damage Ho-oh unless he has Rock Slide (which is crap))
- Absol...
... = poor for obvious reasons.
Only Suicune and Ho-oh make effective Sacred Fire absorbers. Aerodactyl, Raikou, and Zapdos take too much damage, but can come revenge kill score a super effective STAB hit (Though the last two have to attack a 154 base spcdef.
So Ho-oh would be on many many teams, as the only other efficient Sacred Fire absorber is Suicune (who Ho-oh can hit with Thunderbolt and Whirlwind away to remove Calm Mind buffs).
Sacred Fire is too powerful for Miltank to wall, despite Heal Bell (maths would help to determine how much damage Sacred Fire does to max def and hlth impish Miltank) and Regirock needs to be sufficiently healthy or it dies to Earthquake.
max Attack LO Sacred Fire to 252/252+ TF Miltank: 20.56 - 24.37%. Somehow I think it'll be alright with that.
Actually there are quite a lot of things that take little damage from it, like most defensive Fire types, Rock types, Waters, Dragons and Thick Fat pokémon. As for your comments on Pressure pokémon, I'm fully aware that most can't take a sacred fire, which is why I never mentioned them. Just because Moltres is outclassed by Ho-oh in just about everything other than Special Attack doesn't stop it being a fine way to suck up SF PP, though it can't do anything back which sucks. As for Entei, it's actually a great counter; it can snatch away two Sacred Fire PP when switching into it, and it can outspeed and OHKO back with Stone Edge, scared only of switching in on a poorly-predicted Earthquake. Nobody would use it, though, because there are more reliable counters out there and it doesn't change the fact that Entei is really poor.
Heatran anyone? lol (though yes I know it's heatran's fault for being strong, just that he meshes too damn well with everyone else).
Well yes, he can waste a Sacred Fire, but he poses no threat without a scarfed HP Rock (which won't OHKO) or Explosion, but no counter should blow himself up to be considered one. And Heatran gets OHKOed by Earthquake.
Charizard?
Rock Slide?
It is immune to EQ, Resists Sacred Fire, is faster, cannot be burned and can carry Rock Slide... Thunderbolt is a problem, but if it comes in on Roost, Sacred Fire, or EQ, it should be fine.
If you feel it will still hit Charizard hard even when resisting Fire attacks, that is fine, just strap on Salac Berry and watch Blaze and Salac Berry activate on the Sacred Fire switch-in, as Charizard kills with Rock Slide next turn.
P.S. With people now discussing Solrock and Lunatone as possible OU with Sandstream support, does anyone think they could be counters?
Solrock has 95 Base Attack and STAB on Rock Slide, with 85 Defense and a resistance to Fire and an Immunity to Earthquake, and its low Special Defense can be boosted with Sandstream (taking Thunderbolts).
Lunatone has 95 Special Attack (not worrying about halving its Attack stat from Burn, although HO-oh has awsome Special Defense), and 85 Special Defense (further boosted by Sandstream). It resists Ho-oh's STAB too, and can use Hypnosis or HP Rock with STAB, or even Light Screen, Calm Mind, etc.
Also Rest+Talk Shuckle and Cradily with Toxic+Rest could be awsome counters with their nuetrality and Sandstorm Special Defense boosts. STAB Rock Slide on Cradily doesn't hurt either.
Lets also not forget about Regirock, as it can use Rest to heal off EQ and burns, while posing as a massive Defense tank with necessary STAB Rock moves.
Rock Slide?
It is immune to EQ, Resists Sacred Fire, is faster, cannot be burned and can carry Rock Slide... Thunderbolt is a problem, but if it comes in on Roost, Sacred Fire, or EQ, it should be fine.
If you feel it will still hit Charizard hard even when resisting Fire attacks, that is fine, just strap on Salac Berry and watch Blaze and Salac Berry activate on the Sacred Fire switch-in, as Charizard kills with Rock Slide next turn.
P.S. With people now discussing Solrock and Lunatone as possible OU with Sandstream support, does anyone think they could be counters?
Solrock has 95 Base Attack and STAB on Rock Slide, with 85 Defense and a resistance to Fire and an Immunity to Earthquake, and its low Special Defense can be boosted with Sandstream (taking Thunderbolts).
Lunatone has 95 Special Attack (not worrying about halving its Attack stat from Burn, although HO-oh has awsome Special Defense), and 85 Special Defense (further boosted by Sandstream). It resists Ho-oh's STAB too, and can use Hypnosis or HP Rock with STAB, or even Light Screen, Calm Mind, etc.
Also Rest+Talk Shuckle and Cradily with Toxic+Rest could be awsome counters with their nuetrality and Sandstorm Special Defense boosts. STAB Rock Slide on Cradily doesn't hurt either.
Lets also not forget about Regirock, as it can use Rest to heal off EQ and burns, while posing as a massive Defense tank with necessary STAB Rock moves.
I choose you. Heatran!
Though that set would be pretty decent with Choice Scarf Dugtrio. Lure Heatran out and switch when your opponent does to nab him.
ho-oh can easily stall out heatran with subroost+pressure.
All rocks risk a burn, which would remove their usefulness. Ho-oh is faster, being able to Roost off damage and only make his weakness x2. This, combined with Burn, means he can stall Rock Slide and Stone Edge users till they miss. Lunatone probably is the only one who can work because of Hypnosis (assuming it hits).
Rest Talk variations have a better chance. Rest Talk Regirock wins, but I think Cradily can't get enough defence and offence on one set. Solrock has a better chance than Lunatone due to being more phyiscally stronger, so I doubt Lunatone would be used as a Ho-oh counter, but Rest Talk should work with both. The problem is that Rest Talkers may not use a Rock move, giving Ho-oh a chance to Roost or set up a Sub, or possibly do enough damage (probably with Earthquake) depending on the opponent.
Lunatone and Solrock don't have much going for them outside being good Ho-oh counters. I doubt they'll ever get out of UU with those stats; Claydol has a better chance of moving up to BL. If they somehow get BL, they have no hope of OU when Scizor, Tar, Metagross, Gyara, Lucario and others own them (even Blissey).
Why do we all have to be using Heatran to counter a mono-attacking set? Barring issues with Whirlwind, some other Flash Fire pokémon like Houndoom can set up Nasty Plot on that thing and win in the long run. But SubRoost + Whirlwind only allows for, say, Sacred Fire to go on that last slot, which leaves you easily walled.
If things like this became "your generic team" with Ho-oh in the mix, people with standard Gyarados would be in for a treat, among other things (ps. huge Stealth Rock problem right there, and no rapid spinners).
In other unrelated news, I recently found out that that a +2 LO Bullet Punch from Scizor versus a 0HP (which I expect will be on all the mixed sets and probably Choiced ones too) Ho-oh can actually OHKO it after Stealth Rock. Considering my previous comments about how damaging Quick Attack can be, I don't really think Ho-oh would disturb Scizor's insane usage too much.
he was talking about the sub roost toxic sacred fire set, heatrtan is the only pokemon immune to both toxic and fire
Max Att. Adamant Scizor's +2 LO Bullet Punch does 153-180 damage to 0 or 4 Def, neutral nature Ho-oh. SR damage to Ho-oh is 176, assuming Ho-oh's Hlth is 353 (0 EVs). To get the OHKO, Bullet Punch has to do 177 damage or more. This only has a 12.5% chance of occuring. Sure, Sandstorm could be in play, but Ho-oh could be holding Leftovers and/or have more Hlth. and/or Def. Quick Attack though has a guaranteed OHKO. Scizor probably won't be as common with Ho-oh, but still pretty common. And it'll be more commonly seen as the priority master, with Technician Bullet Punch and Quick Attack. Take that Infernape!!
That one in eight chance of your counter being OHKOd after Stealth Rock is nothing to ignore, though. Especially not when if Ho-oh was used a lot as a counter people would just start running Quick Attack anyway and be done with it.
Also I am fairly sure that Sandstorm damage occurs before Leftovers is going to heal, so when sandstorm is up Ho-oh still falls, even when bringing down Scizor with it, if its HP is under 6%.
If and when it gets tested (I would really want to run a tournament and get some more info but I just don't have the time or experience), if people want to use their Ho-oh as their Scizor counter it's up to them, but I just don't think Ho-oh would have a big impact in how many people use Scizor, just how many would run Quick Attack.
Also I am fairly sure that Sandstorm damage occurs before Leftovers is going to heal, so when sandstorm is up Ho-oh still falls, even when bringing down Scizor with it, if its HP is under 6%.
If and when it gets tested (I would really want to run a tournament and get some more info but I just don't have the time or experience), if people want to use their Ho-oh as their Scizor counter it's up to them, but I just don't think Ho-oh would have a big impact in how many people use Scizor, just how many would run Quick Attack.
What's new?
Anyway, I don't like how you make such a blanket statement, especially not when it isn't backed up and is just some idea you threw into the thread. On the contrary, I'm of the believe it may take the metagame in a different direction for a while; suddenly things like Infernape (unless they Swords Dance) and Heatran aren't just running around, not caring about what switches in. Suicide Leads would either go up or fall in usage, and that's something we wouldn't know for certain. Offensive teams would need suicide leads to get SR up and get Ho-oh in without it taking any damage, but many people would probably opt to start using bulkier Stealth Rockers like Swampert and Hippowdon so that if their team really had a big problem with Ho-oh they at least had that to slow it down.
You can't just drop Ho-oh into that group... where are the rapid spinners and the supporters that are needed to make Ho-oh work? You know what, I'm not really going to go any further with this, but please don't come into this thread if you're going to make such damning statements without backing them up. :|
Anyway, I don't like how you make such a blanket statement, especially not when it isn't backed up and is just some idea you threw into the thread. On the contrary, I'm of the believe it may take the metagame in a different direction for a while; suddenly things like Infernape (unless they Swords Dance) and Heatran aren't just running around, not caring about what switches in. Suicide Leads would either go up or fall in usage, and that's something we wouldn't know for certain. Offensive teams would need suicide leads to get SR up and get Ho-oh in without it taking any damage, but many people would probably opt to start using bulkier Stealth Rockers like Swampert and Hippowdon so that if their team really had a big problem with Ho-oh they at least had that to slow it down.
You can't just drop Ho-oh into that group... where are the rapid spinners and the supporters that are needed to make Ho-oh work? You know what, I'm not really going to go any further with this, but please don't come into this thread if you're going to make such damning statements without backing them up. :|
Same can be said for any generation. All of them had star Pokemon that were used in nearly every team.
If you don't like the fact that standards are used then don't play competitive Pokemon. People use the best in order to win. Competitive Pokemon is about winning because winning is fun.
Does anyone think Charizard can make a good (barring thunderbolt, say when facing a Sub/Roost/EQ/Sacred Fire set), switch-in to Ho-oh?
I pointed out already that even if it takes heavy damage from switching into Sacred Fire, it packs Rock Slide, is Immune to EQ and Burns, and can activate Blaze / Salac Berry after finishing off Ho-oh (or if Ho-oh switches) if it takes lots of damage to bring it down to 33% or less HP.
I pointed out already that even if it takes heavy damage from switching into Sacred Fire, it packs Rock Slide, is Immune to EQ and Burns, and can activate Blaze / Salac Berry after finishing off Ho-oh (or if Ho-oh switches) if it takes lots of damage to bring it down to 33% or less HP.
Do some maths to work out how much damage Zard takes from a max. Attack Sacred Fire (neutral and Adamant nature), and if Zard can OHKO Ho-oH
Depending on that, Zard can work. The SR 4x weakness screws it over though. Ho-oh can Roost off that damage as Zard swaps in, then swap out for a Zard counter. If Zard swaps out and comes back, he's got 1 Hlth.
Hm well, heatran is already on almost every team, so I wouldn't be opposed to at least testing it, as I believe someone said, after latias and manaphy have been tested.
Charizard can Roost too you know, it just has to be careful of Earthquake when doing so.
- Status