Hornier than Heracross - Pinsir Discussion

Pikachu of Doom

HP: 65
Attack: 125
Defense: 100
Sp.Attack: 55
Sp.Defense: 70
Speed: 85

Total: 500

For those of you who looked at this and said "Hey, aren't those Heracross' Stats?" I'll forgive you but believe it or not, these are worse than Heracross' if you could ever believe it was possible. Since Pinsir doesn't even have STAB fighting to work with and a worse STAB on it's Bug side you might wonder why we even consider it. To make things more fun I'm not going to tell you.

Notable Physical Moves:
Revenge
Brick Break
Superpower*
Focus Punch
Close Combat
X-Scissor*
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Flail

* - Denotes move Heracross can't learn.

lol, only two moves Heracross doesn't get and one is hardly worth mentioning while the other Heracross would never use anyway due to Megahorn.

All Special Moves:
Hidden Power
Focus Blast
Hyper Beam

Um, no.

Notable Support Moves:
Bulk Up
Swords Dance
Protect
Rest
Endure
SR

Thank god! Stealth Rock! Something Pinsir finally has over Heracross, uh, perhaps?

Heracross Analysis said:
What's more the only thing Pinsirs mono-bug typing has over Heracross is an only 2x Flying Weakness. So we've established that the only thing Pinsir has over Heracross is a better Defense and the option of Superpower....

Although Stone Edge has the potential to KO them both, Salamence and Gyarados provide good coverage against Heracross. Intimidate and resistance to Close Combat and Megahorn help them switch in. Gyarados requires Waterfall to 2HKO, while Salamence can bring him down Choice Band Aerial Ace, Fire Fang or Dragon Claw or a Choice Specs Draco Meteor or Flamethrower.


Jirachi can survive any of the attacks on the Choice Band set and use Zen Headbutt to kill off Heracross. It won't OHKO without significant EV investment, but if you make Jirachi faster he can grab some luck with the flinch rate of Zen Headbutt. Switching into a Close Combat allows for a OHKO when factoring in the Defense drop. Metagross works in a similar way, but will require a Choice Scarf to ensure he is faster than the Choice Bander.


Dugtrio gets a mention for his ability to trap and kill with Aerial Ace.
Click to expand...

What a coincidence, Pinsir's greater defense and mono Flying Type weakness keep it alive much more often. What's more is that it can hit SE on Bronzong, Weezing and Gengar with mould breaker. Fuck Heracross, this thing is UU and we all know that not all that many pokemon can live up to the fearsome reputation of Heracross.

Discuss.
 
Needs more mention of Mold Breaker, which is an awesome reason to use Pinsir over Heracross. Earthquake gives a big hello to all Levitators and stops them coming in easily.
 
I'd rather have a second STAB move and a 4x weakness than only X-Scissor and a 2x weakness.

Also, Pursuit/Night Slash > Faint Attack.

As far as I can tell, Mold Breaker is the only thing that makes Pinsir better in any way.
 
That's great but it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, does it?

Anyway, OHKOing Gyarados after a Swords Dance with Stone Edge or even freaking Rock Slide is pretty cool, and obviously this thing stands somewhere between BL and UU now. I always thought it was one of the, if not the best Advance UU Pokemon.
 
Pinsir needs Megahorn. X-Scissor doesn't cut it. It also doens't help that Skarmy and Forry can wall this, while Heracross hits them hard with STAB Close Combat.

Okay time for some maths:

Pinsir STAB X-Scissor / Heracross' STAB Megahorn
120 BP / 180 BP = Pinsir does 66% of the damage Heracross does with Bug moves.

Pinsir Close Combat / Heracross' STAB Close Combat
120 BP / 180 BP = Pinsir does 66% of the damage Heracross does with Fighting Moves.

The only areas Pinsir outdamages Heracross is in Earthquaking Gengar and Weezing. Their Stone Edges are the same.

Burned Pinsir Attack / Burned Guts Heracross Attack
191 (rounds down) / 574 (rounds down) = Pinsir does 33% of Heracross Damage while burnt

Poison Pinsir Attack / Poison Guts Heracross Attack
383 / 574 = Pinsir does 67% of Heracross Damage while burnt.

Yep, if Heracross can be walled, Pinsir certainly can be walled. They both lack the ability to best 299 Speed, making whatever advantage Pinsir might have mute, the Swords Dancer set isn't too effective because of mediocre speed.

I'd love to say Pinsir is good, but it really is outclassed.
 
Pinsir is more BL than UU. It's too powerful for UU. The only reason it's not OU is because heracross outclasses it and there's almost no reason to use pinsir over heracross. If heracross didn't exist, pinsir would be in its place so pinsir is BL.
 
Anyone who knows me would agree that I like to use lesser-used Pokemon and abuse their niches. I use Golem over Rhyperior, Rotom over Gengar etc. I don't set out to use completely inferior Pokemon, but I try to take advantage of the unique points of those Pokemon (Namely Explosion and Trick/typing in the above examples).

But Pinsir is a lost cause. He has roughly zero advantages over Heracross. I've heard people say that Pinsir is better at abusing Bulk Up. That's just bullshit. When using Bulk Up/Curse, the most important stat is not Attack or Defence. It's Sp.Def. That's why Snorlax is so good at using Curse, whereas Mamoswine sucks ass with it. Be my guest and get 6 Bulk Ups under your belt. It won't save you when Starmie KO's you with Surf. What's that? Heracross has MUCH more Sp.Def and HP than Heracross?

Hyra's statistics should really spell the end of Pinsir in OU. 66% less? That's insane. But having said that, Pinsir is still way too strong for UU and I think we've all realised that he won't be staying there much longer.
 
What a coincidence, Pinsir's greater defense and mono Flying Type weakness keep it alive much more often. What's more is that it can hit SE on Bronzong, Weezing and Gengar with mould breaker.
Click to expand...

There.

It doesn't have to be better to be usable it just has to be different.
 
Love the title. :P

I like Pinsir, and it has a small place in OU, because of it's ability. The same sort of thing worked with my Rampardos, and Gengars trying to switch in. :P CS Pinsir would be cool, but I'm not motivated enough to type more.
 
Hyper Cutter isn't such a bad alternative either, as it negates Intimidates. Personally, I would much rather be able to hit levitators though. I know there's more Mold Breaker can do though, I'm just having a hard time thinking of any atm. What else is it useful for?
 
The way I see it about it's powerfulness, is that if it was easily stopped in ADV UU, then it should still be easily stopped in DP UU, although the main counter then was just Gligar so maybe this isn't true....hmmmmmms
 
What a coincidence, Pinsir's greater defense...

Pinsir's greater defence is nullified somewhat considering his HP hits 271, whereas Heracross' hits 301. He's also weak to Stone Edge, one of the most common physical moves around, whereas Heracross is not. Crunch/Pursuit hits him for neutral too.

and mono Flying Type weakness keep it alive much more often.

And his mono-Flying type weakness comes at a price and it starts with S and ends with tealth Rock. When you're stripped of 25% of your health just because you switched in, you're gonna be dying much more often. Who cares about the x4 flying weakness anyway? Flying moves are rare and predictable. The most common Flying move is Air Slash coming from Yanmega and Togekiss, both of whom OHKO Pinsir.

What's more is that it can hit SE on Bronzong, Weezing and Gengar with mould breaker.

Mold Breaker EQ vs Bronzong = 200BP
Close Combat/Megahorn vs Bronzong = 180BP

So yeah, that's a minor difference. I'd rather have that 180BP, coupled with Guts. Which leads me onto Weezing.

Pinsir used Earthquake!
Weezing lost 45-53% of it's health!
Weezing used Will-o-Wisp!
Pinsir is now a cripple!

That doesn't work quite as well on Heracross! Finally, Gengar is OHKO'd by Pinsir's Earthquake. But he's also OHKO'd by Heracross' Night Slash/Pursuit.
Click to expand...


What you have listed are NOT advantages. If I was given the option to:

- Change Heracross' ability from Guts to Mold Breaker
- Make him Mono-Bug
- Increase his Base Defence to 100

I would obviously only be selecting the third option.

It doesn't have to be better to be usable it just has to be different.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it has to have a worthwhile difference. Shelgon's different from Salamence as he has 100 base defence, but I have no intention of using Shelgon anytime soon (sorry bologo).
 
Damnit, pinsir needs an evo, he makes me megahorny. :(

Anyway, there is one only slightly different move Pinsir gets hera can't. Quick attack. It's not really that considerable though, seeing how it's unstabbed and scizor pulls it off much better, but it's just a little difference.

poor thing looks like it'll be UU again, It's outdone offensively by hera and (if you can really call him doing this thesible) defensively by scizor.
 
It is a shame that Pinsir is always in Heracross' shadow, because if it wasn't...I think it would become much more widely accepted...

Mold Breaker is awesome...
 
I also find Pinsir inferior to Armaldo.

Pinsir can hit things faster, but Armaldo has no Stealth Rock weakness and with Sandstorm boost it can resist SpecsMence's Draco Meteor, SpecsHeatran's Overheat, and has a big percentage to resist SpecsStarmie's Surf and Rampardo's Stone Edge.

Well, that's with my bulky EV spread for it...
 
Armaldo does have a Stealth Rock weakness.

Looking at Pinsir's stuff, I'd say the only thing I want to try out is Guillotine on Machamp :)
 
I used a scarfcross for a while. His def and mold breaker did come in handy every once in a while, but really I just ended up using heracross. Oh yeah, X-Scissors accuracy very nice tho.
 
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