Metagame Hot Potato

TDA

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Hot Potato
Passive damage and effects are some of the most important aspects in any tier. Neutralizing an opposing threat by dropping their stats, afflicting them with a Status Effect, or setting up Entry Hazards can prove essential in winning the day. So, being able to remove these passive effects is incredibly important in any team, lest you get riddled by Entry Hazards, Status Effects, and Stat Debuffs.

However, what if instead of only being able to remove these effects, you could pass those effect on to your opponent? And what if the ability to pass these effects applied to every attacking move?

Rules:

Mechanic: Moves that deal direct damage to an opponent will 'pass' any hazard, status/volatile effects and stat debuffs currently on your side or Pokemon to your opponent's.

Example: Let's say you are currently being afflicted by a Burn, you have -3 Attack, and there are Stealth Rocks set up on your side of the field. By attacking your opponent, all the passive effects (The Burn, the -3 Attack, and the Stealth Rocks) will be passed to your opponent's Pokemon and side of the field, and remove them from your side, curing your Pokemon from the Burn, resetting your Attack stat, and removing the Stealth Rocks from under you.

Clauses: Standard OU clauses

Bans: Standard OU Banlist, Recharge Moves (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Etc), Perish Song, Victini

Unbans: Aegislash

Q&A:

Q: What can be passed by direct attacks in this metagame?
A: The list of passable mechanics are as follows:
  • Stat Drops in Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, Speed, Evasion and Accuracy.
  • Stealth Rocks
  • Spikes
  • Toxic Spikes
  • Sticky Web
  • Poison/Badly Poison
  • Burn
  • Paralysis
  • Sleep
  • Confusion
  • Binding effects from moves such as Mean Look or Magma Storm
  • Effects of Taunt
  • Effects of Encore
  • Effects of Leech Seed
  • Effects of Torment
  • Effects of Disable
  • Effects of Attract
  • Effects of Telekinesis
  • Effects of Nightmare
  • Effects of Curse
  • Effects of Heal Block
  • Effects of Embargo
  • Effects of Identification (Miracle Eye, Foresight, Odor Sleuth)
Recoil will not be passed

Q: How does the passing actually work?
A: The order goes: Move deals damage, move's natural secondary effects activate, move passes hazards/debuffs/status. This means that negative secondary effects like Stat Debuffs or Confusion will pass to your opponent on the same turn they are activated. Passing can only work if you damage your opponent, so hitting a substitute or being fully blocked by Protect or Detect will not pass anything

Q: So, if I U-Turn, will I switch out, switch in a new Pokemon, take entry hazards damage, and then the hazards will be passed?
A: No, since the Pokemon that used U-Turn is the one passing the effects, the entry hazards will be removed before a new Pokemon is switched in. In essence, Pokemon switched in through U-Turn and Volt Switch essentially will never take entry hazard damage.

Q: Will effects like Poison pass if my target is a Steel-Type, or will the effects of Taunt pass if my target has Oblivious?
A: Yes, those effects will pass away from you, curing you of them, but they will simply not affect the immune target. Sleep Clause will also make sure that only one Pokemon can be put to Sleep, if someone attacks with Sleep Talk, but the attacker will still pass and be cured of Sleep

Q: What happens if my attack knocks my opponent’s Pokemon out?
A: If this happens, you will not pass anything.

Q: Wait, so is Magic Bounce broken now?
A: Since passing is caused by direct damage, Magic Bounce will not prevent the effects of a pass from happening. It's like when Shadow Ball drops Mega Sableye's Special Defense. So, its actually pretty useless this metagame.

Q: Wait, if I set up with Swords Dance and attack, do they get +2 Attack?
A: Only Stat Debuff will pass over. Stat Buffs you keep.

Q: If I pass a Stat Debuff to a Contrary user, do they still get the Stat Debuff, or does it still invert?
A: Since the pass is being treated like a secondary effect, Contrary users will invert any Stat Debuffs passed their way.

Q: Do stuff like Taunt, Encore, Confusion, Sleep and Disable reset their timers when they are passed?
A: No, when they are passed they keep the amount of turns they have left. This also applies to Badly Poisoned, which will not reset when passed to a Pokemon.

Q: Can Rapid Spin still remove Entry Hazards the normal way, if I want to?
A: Yes, using Rapid Spin will remove hazards completely, not passing to either side.

Q: Why are Recharge moves banned?
A: Because secondary effects activate before anything is passed, you would pass your Recharge state to your opponent, incapacitating your opponent and giving you free 150 base power moves

Strategy:

Teams should be built so they can abuse the lack of permanent stat drops and the lack of permanent status ailments.

Spamming moves like Superpower and Close Combat will snowball on an opposing Pokemon if they stay in, easily breaking through even the sturdiest of resists. Likewise, be prepared to have switch in options who can tank multiple powerful hits and prepare to deal with the defense drops associated with those moves.

U-Turn and Volt Switch will be excellent ways to get Pokemon in for free, as they can remove hazards and pass along Stat Debuffs to your opponent, which can neutralize their offensive presence.

Pokemon that run items such as Flame or Toxic Orbs will essentially be granted a Burn or Badly Poison effect on every move they use, which greatly improves the utility of Pokemon like Gliscor.

Hazards will be a bigger gamble, as any hazard set up on your opponents side can be easily switched back to you, but the effects of hazards can be mitigated if teams were built specifically for dealing with entry hazard damage.

Fake Out also essentially provides a free pass of effects over to your opponent, preventing them from attacking you and giving back any negative effects.

Clear Body and Contrary Pokemon will also prove to be very useful, as they will ignore any Stat Debuffs or get Stat Buffs from any stat drop given to them, respectfully. Likewise, Poison-, Steel-, Fire- and Electric-Types would all prove useful in absorbing their respective status immunities, as well as any other Pokemon with abilities that prevent certain ailments.

RestTalk will be much more free, putting your opponent to sleep if you can attack them with Sleep Talk and if it doesn't break Sleep Talk.

Resources:

Playability:
Beta Version Playable on Dragonheaven and ROM!

Council:
TDA
Monsareeasy

Ban/Unban History:
Perish Song quickbanned (Nov 12th 2018)
Victini banned (Nov 21st 2018)
Aegislash unbanned (Nov 21st 2018)

Sample Team(s):
https://pokepast.es/a8eb62e93fdbcab0 Tornadus-T Balance
https://pokepast.es/d21435850c795871 Webs Offense

Discord:
https://discord.gg/jjsuJyp
 
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TDA

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So, first question of discussion, should Perish Song be quickbanned? The strategy would consist of using Perish Song, stalling out 2 Turns, and attacking the 3rd Turn. You will guarantee a KO if you hit last, while staying alive, as you passed away Perish Song's effects. However, Perish Song users may not be powerful enough to optimally tank hits for the 2 turns, and therefore this strat may not be as broken as it seems. What are your thoughts?

Perish was quickbanned. Second reserved post ig
 
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Interesting concept. I can see that Mons are discouraged from inflicting status because they will get it back. In other words, rip all the Toxic staller and anyone who tries to Will-o wisp the attacker.

Resttalk looks REALLY strong tbh, because it effectively gives you an almost free recovery while giving your opponent Sleep status.

Heat set:

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: idk tbh
whatever Nature
- Superpower
- Thunderbolt
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Say hello to priority Thunderbolt and Superpower that also pass status to your opponent, as well as Superpower drops.
 
3 questions so far:
  1. In the interests of symmetry, why aren't evasion debuffs (e.g. hit by opposing Defog by Aurora Veil non-fan) passed down?
  2. The OP says, "Since the pass is being treated like a secondary effect", so do Pokemon with Sheer Force pass anything? Or do they attempt to pass, but all they do is cure their own side and not affect the opponent?
  3. When the effects of Disable get passed down, which move gets Disabled?
 
This seems like an interesting metagame, but Guts, Poison Heal, Natural Cure etc. Would be largely dominant, which is arguably unhealthy. But in my opinion, Perish Song is not the real concern, Superpower et al is. 120 base power is nothing to scoff at and passes an attack and defense debuff to your helpless opponent, i genuinely want to watch where this meta goes

Also Contrary at all
 
Conkeldurr looks incredibly dumb in this meta.

Conkeldurr @ Flame/Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 atk / 252 def / 4 spd
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off/Ice Punch/Whatever

Can pass along Burn/Badly Poison, as well as atk and def drops. Looks reallllyy good.
 

TDA

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is a Pre-Contributor
Superpower et al is. 120 base power is nothing to scoff at and passes an attack and defense debuff to your helpless opponent, i genuinely want to watch where this meta goes
This seems problematic but, in my opinion, its balanced out by turn order. If you attack first, then you do transfer the stat drops, but when your opponent attacks you, you'll get them right back. If you attack second, then you've already let your opponent attack you or set up
 

TDA

corrupt auth xd
is a Pre-Contributor
3 questions so far:
  1. In the interests of symmetry, why aren't evasion debuffs (e.g. hit by opposing Defog by Aurora Veil non-fan) passed down?
  2. The OP says, "Since the pass is being treated like a secondary effect", so do Pokemon with Sheer Force pass anything? Or do they attempt to pass, but all they do is cure their own side and not affect the opponent?
  3. When the effects of Disable get passed down, which move gets Disabled?
1. Ngl I simply forgot about that
2. The 'secondary effect' isn't literal, it's just to show that Magic Bounce isn't affected, because its not a non-damaging move. Sheer Force should only be affected by the move they used.
3. Disable when passed will disable the move last used by the Pokemon that receives Disable. If your Close Combat is disabled, and you hit them, and their last used move is Scald, then you will disable their Scald and enable Close Combat
 
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This seems like a hella fun meta. Really fun. Hope it makes OMotM someday. Still, I do not think that perish song deserves a quickban, simply because of quite frail users that have limited recovery options.
 
Random Set
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Roost

The idea is that after attacking Superpower, Dragonite can use Extreme Speed to hit the decreased defenses of a foe. I'm sure this can be improved but I liked the idea behind it
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
So, first question of discussion, should Perish Song be quickbanned? The strategy would consist of using Perish Song, stalling out 2 Turns, and attacking the 3rd Turn. You will guarantee a KO if you hit last, while staying alive, as you passed away Perish Song's effects. However, Perish Song users may not be powerful enough to optimally tank hits for the 2 turns, and therefore this strat may not be as broken as it seems. What are your thoughts?
While I'm under the belief it should be banned anyway, Perish Song itself entirely depends on the mechanics of passing something that cannot be passed under normal circumstances, which would probably flesh out what can and can't be done in this metagame a bit more. Allow me to present a few hypothetical scenarios. In all scenarios, Side A attacks Side B.
  1. Stealth Rock is on both sides of the field. Does Stealth Rock get removed from Side A?
    1. A subset of this is that Side A has 3 layers of Spikes on its side of the field, while Side B has 1 layer of Spikes. How many layers get transferred, if any?
  2. Side A is poisoned, while Side B is burned. Is Side B poisoned? If no, is Side A's poison cured?
    1. A subset of this is if both sides have the same status condition, and a subset of that is with Toxic and its counter.
  3. Side A is attracted to Side B, and vice versa (probably the most relevant for this case, even though Attract is shit it falls under a very similar category). Does Side A's attraction end?
Depending on what happens in these cases, the potential damage of this Perish Song strat's extent would be drastically different.
If your opponent switches regardless of the result, they would be the only one to lose a mon, if they stay in and the effect cannot be passed due to both having it, both you and the opponent would lose your respective mons, if they stay in and the effect can be passed, whoever is slower will stay alive... it essentially makes it into a "pick the thing that dies" type of game the second the Perish Song mon comes in (and if said user is Murkrow or anything else with Whirlwind, not even that), and I don't really find that to be very healthy for any sort of meta.
 
The Perish Song set could be made even better by being a U Turner. (Celebi or Meloetta). I'm just going to let you think of the implications of this for a second, considering that both of these pokemon are reasonably tanky
 
Celebi @ Lagging Tail/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Perish Song
- U-turn
- Protect
- Leaf Storm

The king of Perish Song is here. Lagging Tail would be used so that the opponet can't just U turn slower than you (with your 100 base speed you still outspeed quite a bit, even as Sassy). Leftovers are there to ensure you survive until Perish Song activates. Either of these items is acceptable. Basically the strategy is Perish Song, Protect, U Turn. If for some reason this doesn't work, Leaf Storm is a powerful stab with few drawbacks thanks to the ability to pass the stat drops.
Meloetta @ Lagging Tail/eftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Perish Song
- U-turn
- Protect
- Facade
Literally the exact same thing as Celebi. Meloetta trades some STAB power for better special bulk and typing.
 
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Imma just theorymon a little bit real quick. Gonna put the mons in spoilers, for ease of access.

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat / Superpower
- Earthquake / Shadow Claw
- Rock Slide
- Facade

As already mentioned earlier, Quick Feet can easily get problematic. Ursaring is the strongest Quick Feet Pokemon on both sides of the spectrum (on the special side, you have Jolteon with a SpA of 110, 20 off). Combine this with really nice coverage and Ursaring could be a nasty late-game cleaner, although you would need some way of countering faster Pokemon, possibly by Sticky Webs or paralysis spam. You could slot Refresh over Rock Slide to help deal with pesky paralysis, but I have a feeling that wouldn't be needed. Lastly, I wanna point out that flinches nor crits are effected by this metagame, we'll get back to that later.


Kingdra @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Surf


I'm not sure you thought through everything entirely, although a lot of nasty things do get passed, according to the OP, neither Focus Energy nor Substitute get passed. If Focus Energy is allowed to pass, this set will die, no problem, but Substitute might prove problematic. Even still, I just wanted to let you know that these are not passable in this meta. ;) I didn't read the OP as thoroughly as I thought. It's still a spooky set, but I had no reason to believe that either Sub or Focus Energy. Just correcting my error.


Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
- Trick


Remember when I said that flinches don't pass? This is what I was implying. This set is going to be so cancerous until people figure out how to beat it, and its going to be so damn annoying. Enjoy while you can. ;)


I'll likely be back with more in a couple days, I'll be leaving for a bit, so...yeah.
 
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TDA

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is a Pre-Contributor
Answers in red
  1. Stealth Rock is on both sides of the field. Does Stealth Rock get removed from Side A? Yes. The passing will remove everything that I have listed from your side, and put them all onto your opponent.
    1. A subset of this is that Side A has 3 layers of Spikes on its side of the field, while Side B has 1 layer of Spikes. How many layers get transferred, if any? Side A will transfer all 3 layers, Side B now has 3 layers of Spikes. This would be treated as adding three new layers, one layer at a time, with the 3rd layer being passed failing
  2. Side A is poisoned, while Side B is burned. Is Side B poisoned? If no, is Side A's poison cured? The poison will be passed from Side A, curing Side A, but it will fail to poison the opponent, like trying to use Toxic on a burned Pokemon. Nothing that is passed replaces anything, it just adds on.
    1. A subset of this is if both sides have the same status condition, same scenario will happen and a subset of that is with Toxic and its counter. same scenario
The idea is that Side A will pass, and remove from themselves, the status when attacking, but it may or may not affect Side B if they can be affected by that Status.
  1. Side A is attracted to Side B, and vice versa (probably the most relevant for this case, even though Attract is shit it falls under a very similar category). Does Side A's attraction end? Since Side A is attacking, and therefore passing the attraction, Side A's attraction ends. If Side B currently is not effected by
Depending on what happens in these cases, the potential damage of this Perish Song strat's extent would be drastically different.

The reason why Perish Song could be broken is because passing the Song's affects on Turn 3 will cure the user, because the effects are passed away from Side A, and still kill the target, if the Perish Song user attacked last. The effects can be passed whether or not they already have it, it will just fail if they are already under the affect
 

TDA

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is a Pre-Contributor
so...yeah.
None of those sets are broken, probably. They are all normally run in regular tiers, and the Jirachi one especially will have the same basic strategy and effect as it does in OU/UU, besides maybe being able to pass passive stuff more freely. It will be nice being able to pass -2 Special Attack and Burns from Kingdra and Usaring respectfully, but it'll be finnnee
 
I feel gliscor scarf victini teams will be really good. do you get the guts boost and then pass stats? I could see that also good

Edit: potential set/concept
Serperior
Ability: Contrary
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
 
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Evasion (Serperior)
Ability: Contrary
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog

Rip ur stats (Victini)
Ability: Victory Star
- V-create

Ok (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
IVs: 0 Atk

I'm magical (Clefable) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast

Stops status (Tapu Fini)
Ability: Misty Surge
IVs: 0 Atk

is zygarde (Zygarde)
Ability: Aura Break
IVs: 0 Atk
 
None of those sets are broken, probably. They are all normally run in regular tiers, and the Jirachi one especially will have the same basic strategy and effect as it does in OU/UU, besides maybe being able to pass passive stuff more freely. It will be nice being able to pass -2 Special Attack and Burns from Kingdra and Usaring respectfully, but it'll be finnnee
I realized that I misunderstood the premise of this metagame, and thought that ALL things related to a Pokemon, including stat boosts, would pass. Now that I see that, I think that the sets could likely be improved (like removing Rock Slide on Ursaring for Substitute or Swords Dance), but I am predicting that Quick Feet will be insane, at least in the top 5 abilities of the meta. Maybe it won't be Ursaring dominating, but perhaps a Sub Jolteon. Speaking of sub, Substitute will also drive many players insane, I'll assume, unless passing works through the sub. If not, well, we'll probably see Noivern more often. ;)

But yeah, I'll definitely try this once playable. I'll post more experimented sets once its playable, I don't think it'd be too hard to code, just need to wait on someone to actually do it.
 
Here are some more thoughts. Banded ttar so far looks good as anti meta same with dd. Banning serp+defog is something that should always be tested. Auto ban perishsong. I'd also be interested in being council if I learn enough about this metagame and how it works.
Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
IVs: 0 Atk
- Curse
 
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